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Dutchy
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MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:08 am

MH17 was shot down by a Russian military BUK Missle, five years ago today. It was a black day for the Netherlands, Malasia, Australia,

Image

Just take a moment to remember this heinous deed.

27 Australians, 4 Belgium, 1 Canadian, 4 Germans, 12 Indonesians, 43 Malaysians, 193 Dutch, 1 from New Zealand, 3 Philippino, 10 British. 298 murdered.

Hopefully those responsible will be held responsible. Next year the first four will have to answer for their involvement before a judge. They will probably be trailed in absence, but that isn't the real issue.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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LaunchDetected
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:40 am

A link to the (always interesting) Dutch investigation report:

https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/media/attachment/2018/7/10/debcd724fe7breport_mh17_crash.pdf
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AirwayBill
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:55 am

Last moments lived by occupants have been absolutely horrifying.

Not the first airliner to be destroyed by humans' murderous impulse, and certainly not the last either.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:59 am

Sadly, justice is still far away for families of the vicitms.

What's even sadder is that the new Malaysian government is ambivalent towards pursuing justice - the PM, who wasn't there when the plane was shot down, would rather be chummy with Putin to the point of questioning the JIT investigation, which pisses me off to no end.
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Armodeen
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:03 am

There will never be justice. The world was briefly outraged and then realpolitik dictated a return to business as usually l with Russia, save for the public image.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:24 am

Some lessons have been learned, airlines seem to be a bit more careful and are avoiding more areas of intense fighting. Perhaps someone in the know could elaborate a bit more? it seems to be more coordinated, but that could be a false assumption.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ltbewr
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:33 am

Dutchy wrote:
Some lessons have been learned, airlines seem to be a bit more careful and are avoiding more areas of intense fighting.

Indeed. The recent flying bans over Iran and Pakistan (some partially lifted) reflect a well founded fear of aircraft being shot down over a hostile area as the Ukraine was then with MH 17 (and still is).
The worst part about MH 17, much like with other aircraft lost in terrorism or deliberate attacks, will be never getting the alleged perpetrators and their supporters to face penalties for their crimes. Russia of course will never take the blame for obvious reasons, although a sophisticated missile and launching system sourced from them was involved.
 
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vhtje
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:18 pm

I have always wondered if the grey underbody of the then-current MH livery was a factor in this tragedy. Did the perpetrators mistake it for a military aircraft?

Without wishing to be morbid, I also can't help wonder what it would have been like onboard. Quick, I should imagine. I don't know if that makes it better, or worse.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
Austin787
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:05 pm

Interesting the occurrences of the number 17:
Flight 17
On July 17
Aircraft had its first flight exactly 17 years prior (July 17, 1997)
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:15 pm

Austin787 wrote:
Interesting the occurrences of the number 17:
Flight 17
On July 17
Aircraft had its first flight exactly 17 years prior (July 17, 1997)


The 2 MH 777 accidents have had some really odd occurrences. The l/n number of the 9M-MRO(MH370) was 404.

Ever heard of the “Error 404 not found” error? Really crazy stuff.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:26 pm

vhtje wrote:
I have always wondered if the grey underbody of the then-current MH livery was a factor in this tragedy. Did the perpetrators mistake it for a military aircraft?

Without wishing to be morbid, I also can't help wonder what it would have been like onboard. Quick, I should imagine. I don't know if that makes it better, or worse.


That was one of the theories floated by the Russian Federation, it was shot down by mistake because it was thought it was Putin's plane, not that that one was near it in any dimension, but ok.

It was shot down while being 31.000feet in the air, 10kilometers, by a BUK-missile, a radar-guided BUK-missile. So no, it wasn't a contributing factor, so we can put your mind at ease.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
FlyingLaw1
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:55 pm

I flew into Schipol on the morning of July 19th, 2014 while on a trip to visit my relatives in Amsterdam. I will never forget seeing dozens of individuals and dozens more media at the front of the terminal. Many standing in awe and others placing flowers. When I placed flowers at the terminal that day, the flowers were maybe 30 meters down the terminal front--when I returned 5 days later the flowers were all the way to the end of the building.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:09 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Sadly, justice is still far away for families of the vicitms.

What's even sadder is that the new Malaysian government is ambivalent towards pursuing justice - the PM, who wasn't there when the plane was shot down, would rather be chummy with Putin to the point of questioning the JIT investigation, which pisses me off to no end.


In one of his books within the last five years (I can't remember the title), author Clive Cussler (of "Raise The Titanic" and "Sahara") gives us a story involving a character who is a Dutch arms merchant that everyone is trying to track down. No one is successful in the end, and the epilogue to the book places the arms dealer in the company of Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine.

The demonstration of this system that the rebels believe they are buying begins with a test launch of the system. Then the Dutch arms dealer enters a code into the computer, and very slowly the rebel group - including the rather vicious commander - realize that the missile is coming back directly towards them, locked into its orders, and ready to detonate upon reaching the group in just a few seconds.

You guessed it - the arms dealer lost his wife and family on that flight. Suffering from survivor's guilt, he planned the ultimate act of vengeance.

I'm afraid to say that this work of fiction is as close as we'll ever get to justice, but it is something memorable.
 
richierich
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:15 pm

Today is also the 23rd anniversary of TWA 800 exploding soon after takeoff from JFK. A loss for completely different reasons, perhaps, but another huge tragedy on this sad day. July 17th is not a happy travel day in the airline industry historically-speaking. I'm only mentioning it; in 2 years will be the 25th anniversary and surely a large thread dedicated to it.
None shall pass!!!!
 
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:06 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Some lessons have been learned, airlines seem to be a bit more careful and are avoiding more areas of intense fighting.

Indeed. The recent flying bans over Iran and Pakistan (some partially lifted) reflect a well founded fear of aircraft being shot down over a hostile area as the Ukraine was then with MH 17 (and still is).
The worst part about MH 17, much like with other aircraft lost in terrorism or deliberate attacks, will be never getting the alleged perpetrators and their supporters to face penalties for their crimes. Russia of course will never take the blame for obvious reasons, although a sophisticated missile and launching system sourced from them was involved.


My understanding is that the evidence is far more than just that the system was manufactured by Russia. It is my understanding that the warhead shrapnel fragments is definitive proof that it was missile from the current Russian armed forces; and not from a Ukrainian Missie.

Back at the time - and buried in some old computer files from my previous computer I have an extensive diagram of the different models of the BUK missile over the decades and the different generations and designs of warheads (guidance systems, etc.). While Ukraine had BUK missiles, it is my understanding that they had a previous generation warhead (different shrapnel). It is my understanding that once the shrapnel was collected from MH17 that Ukraine allowed international military experts to examine their Ukrainian BUK missiles to validate that they had the older warheads (and that the military experts picked missiles at random from various parts of Ukraine to inspect). I posted most of this information in the then current MH17 thread.

If I recall, the Russian company who made the warhead stopped cooperating with the Dutch and other international inspectors once it was identified that it was the latest generation warhead; and I have heard that what they refused to supply was where else they had shipped that most modern warhead too; other than obviously the Russian Military (you could upgrade and older missile with a modern warhead, guidance, and other components - I do think that Ukraine had updated the guidance components - but retained the old warhead). A personal suspicion (speculation/unverified) is that the most modern warhead may never have been (at the time) supplied to anyone outside of the Russian Military. It is known that Russia was selling BUK missiles with the older warheads at that time (use of existing stock, use up old warheads pulled from ungraded missiles - a lot of military sales do this: Only a select few get the latest and greatest).

Of course, there is a lot of other evidence that says "Russia" as well. But, the shrapnel is direct physical evidence; and based on the what I recall of the evidence of the time - was not possibly from a Ukrainian BUK missile.

Anyway, despite the evidence: Russia will never admit it; and in my opinion - the world by and large has allowed Russia to get away with it.

Have a great day,
 
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:00 pm

vhtje wrote:
Without wishing to be morbid, I also can't help wonder what it would have been like onboard. Quick, I should imagine. I don't know if that makes it better, or worse.


The explosive decompression might have knocked them out, but as the wreckage gets lower enough oxygen could have revived them.

Austin787 wrote:
Interesting the occurrences of the number 17:
Flight 17
On July 17
Aircraft had its first flight exactly 17 years prior (July 17, 1997)


Here's another coincidence, although this is stretching a bit. Take the last three letters of the plane's registration -MRD. Transpose the position of the letters on the alphabet (M = 13, R=18, D=4), add the numbers in single digit form (1+3+1+8+4).

You get 17.

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
In one of his books within the last five years (I can't remember the title), author Clive Cussler (of "Raise The Titanic" and "Sahara") gives us a story involving a character who is a Dutch arms merchant that everyone is trying to track down. No one is successful in the end, and the epilogue to the book places the arms dealer in the company of Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine.

The demonstration of this system that the rebels believe they are buying begins with a test launch of the system. Then the Dutch arms dealer enters a code into the computer, and very slowly the rebel group - including the rather vicious commander - realize that the missile is coming back directly towards them, locked into its orders, and ready to detonate upon reaching the group in just a few seconds.

You guessed it - the arms dealer lost his wife and family on that flight. Suffering from survivor's guilt, he planned the ultimate act of vengeance.

I'm afraid to say that this work of fiction is as close as we'll ever get to justice, but it is something memorable.


The title is Odessa Sea. Maybe I'll pick it up & give it a go.
Last edited by TheFlyingDisk on Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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HP69
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:02 pm

MH seems very accident prone, with this and the disappearance.
 
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:04 pm

HP69 wrote:
MH seems very accident prone, with this and the disappearance.

Are you insinuating that MH had any part of responsibility in MH17???
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:06 pm

It still makes me sick to think about this crash/murder. Did the poor passengers at least not suffer for long? Would they have quickly lost consciousness at that altitude?
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:15 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
In one of his books within the last five years (I can't remember the title), author Clive Cussler (of "Raise The Titanic" and "Sahara") gives us a story involving a character who is a Dutch arms merchant that everyone is trying to track down. No one is successful in the end, and the epilogue to the book places the arms dealer in the company of Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine.

The demonstration of this system that the rebels believe they are buying begins with a test launch of the system. Then the Dutch arms dealer enters a code into the computer, and very slowly the rebel group - including the rather vicious commander - realize that the missile is coming back directly towards them, locked into its orders, and ready to detonate upon reaching the group in just a few seconds.

You guessed it - the arms dealer lost his wife and family on that flight. Suffering from survivor's guilt, he planned the ultimate act of vengeance.

I'm afraid to say that this work of fiction is as close as we'll ever get to justice, but it is something memorable.


The title is Odessa Sea. Maybe I'll pick it up & give it a go.


It wasn't one of his better books, especially not since he's been co-authoring a lot of them. Quite a few home runs, though, still being hit!
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:22 pm

HP69 wrote:
MH seems very accident prone, with this and the disappearance.


Accident prone? Hardly. Their last major accident prior to MH370/MH17 was in 1995, which killed 32 people. The deadliest crash prior to MH370/MH17 was MH684 which happened in 1977 - and it was a hijacking. It's just the luck of the draw, honestly.

If you're talking about USAir in the 1990s, then you can say they're accident prone - 4 crashes in a spate of 3 years, 2 of which happened just 3 months apart.
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:05 am

Death was quick for the passengers, since you likely wouldn't survive the impact. I'm 50/50 about wishing to know my life is about to end just minutes (or seconds) before it happens. "Painless" as a fall....
 
olle
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:51 pm

Mh17 disaster has now seen that individuals has been defined and will be charged for murder.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mh17-crash ... flight-17/


Could this had been applied to the Iran flight 655 30 years ago as well?


We can assume that in both cases none had an intention to shoot down a civilian jet.

If the russian ukraine crew get sentenced for murder will this ruling apply for other military forces in a war zone where civilian jets can get in harms way?
 
Philippine747
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:52 am

HP69 wrote:
MH seems very accident prone, with this and the disappearance.


Before 370, the last major crash was of an A300 in 1980. From that point, they had a good safety record and is still considered as one of the safer SEA carriers.
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:45 pm

MH17 survivors' fire letter to Malaysian Prime Minister: "Stop sowing divisions"

VIDEON existence of flight MH17 is finished with the doubts seeded by Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad about the investigation into the shooting of the aircraft. In a letter, addressed personally to the Prime Minister, they now ask him to refrain from "sowing divisions" and no longer to make statements that are "contrary to the truth."

In the letter, which was delivered yesterday, the board of the MH17 Flying Disaster Foundation writes that "you are causing confusion about the actual position of the Malaysian government." Malaysia is working with the Netherlands, Australia, Ukraine and Belgium in the Joint Investigation Team (JIT), which is investigating the causes of the crash on July 17, 2014. The aircraft of Malaysia Airlines was on its way from Schiphol to Kuala Lumpur. All 283 passengers and 15 crew members died in the crash. "We unfortunately have to conclude that you are constantly questioning the integrity and independence of the JIT investigation", the surviving relatives now write to the prime minister.


link
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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BirdBrain
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:32 pm

I didn't know Malaysia had to send an elite squad to retrieve the black boxes. It does make sense since it was not exactly normal accident and that too in a conflict zone. Sorry if this is a repetition, but I had not heard this before.

https://www.nst.com.my/opinion/columnis ... ium=recsys
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:09 am

BirdBrain wrote:
I didn't know Malaysia had to send an elite squad to retrieve the black boxes. It does make sense since it was not exactly normal accident and that too in a conflict zone. Sorry if this is a repetition, but I had not heard this before.

https://www.nst.com.my/opinion/columnis ... ium=recsys


Hadn't heard about this, thanks for that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tcfc424
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:38 am

Completely unrelated, but nice seeing some fellow Clive Cussler readers...it must be the Hangar at DCA where Pitt resides that is the civav tie-in!

Back on topic, it is disappointing that global politics has rendered justice out of reach in this case. The evidence seems to be there, but no one willing to "file the charges."
 
Thai77w
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:20 am

A tragedy very close to home. My fiancé's closest friend was a cabin crew member on board MH17. A cruel twist of fate was she was called on her day off to operate the flight, she said yes as a favour since the head of crewing was a friend of hers.
Aircraft types I've been on: PA31,Q300,AT75,AT76,717,733,738,739ER,763,772,77E,773,77W,788,789,744,319,320,332,333,346,359,380
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:31 am

tcfc424 wrote:
Back on topic, it is disappointing that global politics has rendered justice out of reach in this case. The evidence seems to be there, but no one willing to "file the charges."


Four have been charged, 3 Russian nationals and 1 Ukrainian. The trail begins next year in The Netherlands, probably without the suspects present. We will see if they will get convicted or not in an open en free trail. The JIT has to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
JayBCN
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:55 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Sadly, justice is still far away for families of the vicitms.

What's even sadder is that the new Malaysian government is ambivalent towards pursuing justice - the PM, who wasn't there when the plane was shot down, would rather be chummy with Putin to the point of questioning the JIT investigation, which pisses me off to no end.


Thanks for naming the culprit.
 
Antaras
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:42 pm

vhtje wrote:
I have always wondered if the grey underbody of the then-current MH livery was a factor in this tragedy. Did the perpetrators mistake it for a military aircraft?

If that was true, luckily for Vietnam Airlines that their retired B777-2ER used to be flying on that area with grey underbody.
Image
 
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:29 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
HP69 wrote:
MH seems very accident prone, with this and the disappearance.

Are you insinuating that MH had any part of responsibility in MH17???


Were other airlines flying over the eastern Ukraine at the time of the crash? That might be a reason to find fault with MH. But as others have said, airlines and governments are much more careful of where they will fly because of MH17, so we may hope that no future incidents of this type occur.
 
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PW100
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:04 pm

spinotter wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
HP69 wrote:
MH seems very accident prone, with this and the disappearance.

Are you insinuating that MH had any part of responsibility in MH17???


Were other airlines flying over the eastern Ukraine at the time of the crash? That might be a reason to find fault with MH. But as others have said, airlines and governments are much more careful of where they will fly because of MH17, so we may hope that no future incidents of this type occur.


Were other airlines flying over the eastern Ukraine at the time of the crash?
Yes, most certainly. Hundreds of different airliners flew over eastern Ukraine the days before the crash, inlcuding KLM, SQ A380 and many more. In fact, there were only a handful of airlines not flying over the region.

So no reason to find fault with MH.


The MH17 final report states on this:


The list from EUROCONTROL reveals that the average number of international flights that flew through the UKDV (Dnipropetrovsk FIR) per day did not change after the unrest intensified in the eastern part of the Ukraine and the armed conflict increasingly expanded into the airspace. Even following the Ukrainian NOTAMs on 6 June, 1 July and 14 July 2014, there was no significant change in the number of flights through the UKDV; on average there were approximately 220 flights per day (see Figure 86).



Appendix R shows that he days before the shoot down (between 14 and 17 July) following operators flew through this air space:
* Aegean Al
* Aeroflot
* Aerologic
* Air Arabia
* Air Astana
* Air Baltic
* Air Europa
* Air France
* Air India
* Atlas Air
* Austrian Al
* Azerbaijan Hava Yollari
* Bangladesh Biman
* Belavia
* Business Jet Travel Airline Ltd
* Cargoilux Al
* Classic Jet
* Czech Al
* Delta Air Lines
* Dnieproavia
* Elitavia
* Emirates
* Etihad Al
* EVA Airways Corp
* Execujet Europe
* Federal Express
* Flydubai
* German Air Force
* Global Jet Luxembourg
* Hang Khong Viet Nam
* Ikar
* Jet Airways
* Jet Executive International Carrier
* KLM
* Lufthansa
* Lufthansa Cargo
* Malaysian Airlines System
* Montenegro Al
* NetJets
* Orenair
* Pakistan International Al
* Qatar Airways
* Shell Aircraft Company
* Singapore Al
* Singapore Al Cargo
* Swiss International Al
* Thai Airways
* Titan Aw
* TNT Aw
* Transaero Al
* Turkmenhovayollari
* Tyrolean Jet Service
* Ukraine International Al
* United Airlines
* UTAir-Ukraine Al
* Uzbekistan Aw
* Virgin Atlantic
* Vista Jet
* Wizz Air Ukraine
* Yamal Al
* Yanair


On the day of the accident no less than 160 commercial flights were conducted until the airspace was closed at 15:00 local time (immediately following the shoot down):
* Malaysian: 2x B772, 5x A388
* Aeroflot: 5x A320, 4x A321, 1x A333, 2x B77W
* Aerologic: 1x B77L
* Air Astana: 2x A321
* Air Baltic: 1x B733, 1x B735
* Air Europa: 1x B738
* Air India: 7x B788, 1x B77W, 1x B744
* Atlas Air : 1x B744
* Austrian: 2x F70, 1xB763
* Azerbaijan Hava: 2x E190, 4x A320, 1x B763
* Belavia: 1x CRJ2, 1x E170, 1x E190, 2x B733, 1x B735
* Cargolux: 2x B748
* Dnieproavia: 4x E145
* Eliavia: 1x GLEX
* Emirates:P 1x A345, 1x B77W, 1x A388
* Etihad: 2x A319, 1x B77L, 2x B77W
* EVA: 4x B77W, 1x B744
* Hang Khong: 4x B772
* Jet: 2x A333, 5x B77W
* Jet Executive: 1x LJ35
* KLM: 2x A332, 1x B772, 2x B77W
* Lufthansa: 1x A333, 3x A343, 2x A346, 3x B748
* Lufthansa Cargo: 2x MD11
* Orenair: 2x B738
* Pakistan: 1x B772, 1x B77L
* Qatar: 4x B788
* Singapore: 4x B772, 3x B77W, 9x A388
* Swiss: 1x A343
* Thai: 1x B772, 2x B77W, 4x A346, 4x B744, 4x A388
* Turkmenhovayollary: 1x B752
* Ukraine Int.: 1x E190, 1x B735, 2x B733, 1x B738, 1x B739
* UTAir Ukr.: 1x B738
* Uzbekistan: 2x B752, 3x B763
* Virgin: 4x A333
* Wizz Air Ukr.: 2x A320
* Yamal: 2x A321

https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/page/3546/mh17-crash-17-juli-2014
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WeatherPilot
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:10 pm

I can’t believe it has been 5 years already.
 
Antaras
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:27 am

PW100 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Are you insinuating that MH had any part of responsibility in MH17???


Were other airlines flying over the eastern Ukraine at the time of the crash? That might be a reason to find fault with MH. But as others have said, airlines and governments are much more careful of where they will fly because of MH17, so we may hope that no future incidents of this type occur.


Were other airlines flying over the eastern Ukraine at the time of the crash?
Yes, most certainly. Hundreds of different airliners flew over eastern Ukraine the days before the crash, inlcuding KLM, SQ A380 and many more. In fact, there were only a handful of airlines not flying over the region.

So no reason to find fault with MH.


The MH17 final report states on this:


The list from EUROCONTROL reveals that the average number of international flights that flew through the UKDV (Dnipropetrovsk FIR) per day did not change after the unrest intensified in the eastern part of the Ukraine and the armed conflict increasingly expanded into the airspace. Even following the Ukrainian NOTAMs on 6 June, 1 July and 14 July 2014, there was no significant change in the number of flights through the UKDV; on average there were approximately 220 flights per day (see Figure 86).



Appendix R shows that he days before the shoot down (between 14 and 17 July) following operators flew through this air space:
* Aegean Al
* Aeroflot
* Aerologic
* Air Arabia
* Air Astana
* Air Baltic
* Air Europa
* Air France
* Air India
* Atlas Air
* Austrian Al
* Azerbaijan Hava Yollari
* Bangladesh Biman
* Belavia
* Business Jet Travel Airline Ltd
* Cargoilux Al
* Classic Jet
* Czech Al
* Delta Air Lines
* Dnieproavia
* Elitavia
* Emirates
* Etihad Al
* EVA Airways Corp
* Execujet Europe
* Federal Express
* Flydubai
* German Air Force
* Global Jet Luxembourg
* Hang Khong Viet Nam
* Ikar
* Jet Airways
* Jet Executive International Carrier
* KLM
* Lufthansa
* Lufthansa Cargo
* Malaysian Airlines System
* Montenegro Al
* NetJets
* Orenair
* Pakistan International Al
* Qatar Airways
* Shell Aircraft Company
* Singapore Al
* Singapore Al Cargo
* Swiss International Al
* Thai Airways
* Titan Aw
* TNT Aw
* Transaero Al
* Turkmenhovayollari
* Tyrolean Jet Service
* Ukraine International Al
* United Airlines
* UTAir-Ukraine Al
* Uzbekistan Aw
* Virgin Atlantic
* Vista Jet
* Wizz Air Ukraine
* Yamal Al
* Yanair


On the day of the accident no less than 160 commercial flights were conducted until the airspace was closed at 15:00 local time (immediately following the shoot down):
* Malaysian: 2x B772, 5x A388
* Aeroflot: 5x A320, 4x A321, 1x A333, 2x B77W
* Aerologic: 1x B77L
* Air Astana: 2x A321
* Air Baltic: 1x B733, 1x B735
* Air Europa: 1x B738
* Air India: 7x B788, 1x B77W, 1x B744
* Atlas Air : 1x B744
* Austrian: 2x F70, 1xB763
* Azerbaijan Hava: 2x E190, 4x A320, 1x B763
* Belavia: 1x CRJ2, 1x E170, 1x E190, 2x B733, 1x B735
* Cargolux: 2x B748
* Dnieproavia: 4x E145
* Eliavia: 1x GLEX
* Emirates:P 1x A345, 1x B77W, 1x A388
* Etihad: 2x A319, 1x B77L, 2x B77W
* EVA: 4x B77W, 1x B744
* Hang Khong: 4x B772
* Jet: 2x A333, 5x B77W
* Jet Executive: 1x LJ35
* KLM: 2x A332, 1x B772, 2x B77W
* Lufthansa: 1x A333, 3x A343, 2x A346, 3x B748
* Lufthansa Cargo: 2x MD11
* Orenair: 2x B738
* Pakistan: 1x B772, 1x B77L
* Qatar: 4x B788
* Singapore: 4x B772, 3x B77W, 9x A388
* Swiss: 1x A343
* Thai: 1x B772, 2x B77W, 4x A346, 4x B744, 4x A388
* Turkmenhovayollary: 1x B752
* Ukraine Int.: 1x E190, 1x B735, 2x B733, 1x B738, 1x B739
* UTAir Ukr.: 1x B738
* Uzbekistan: 2x B752, 3x B763
* Virgin: 4x A333
* Wizz Air Ukr.: 2x A320
* Yamal: 2x A321

https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/page/3546/mh17-crash-17-juli-2014

Is "Hang khong Viet Nam" Vietnam Airlines????
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 1843
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:16 am

Dutchy wrote:
MH17 survivors' fire letter to Malaysian Prime Minister: "Stop sowing divisions"

VIDEON existence of flight MH17 is finished with the doubts seeded by Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad about the investigation into the shooting of the aircraft. In a letter, addressed personally to the Prime Minister, they now ask him to refrain from "sowing divisions" and no longer to make statements that are "contrary to the truth."

In the letter, which was delivered yesterday, the board of the MH17 Flying Disaster Foundation writes that "you are causing confusion about the actual position of the Malaysian government." Malaysia is working with the Netherlands, Australia, Ukraine and Belgium in the Joint Investigation Team (JIT), which is investigating the causes of the crash on July 17, 2014. The aircraft of Malaysia Airlines was on its way from Schiphol to Kuala Lumpur. All 283 passengers and 15 crew members died in the crash. "We unfortunately have to conclude that you are constantly questioning the integrity and independence of the JIT investigation", the surviving relatives now write to the prime minister.


link


Utterly shameful. He's sucking up to his Russian master.

spinotter wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
HP69 wrote:
MH seems very accident prone, with this and the disappearance.

Are you insinuating that MH had any part of responsibility in MH17???


Were other airlines flying over the eastern Ukraine at the time of the crash? That might be a reason to find fault with MH. But as others have said, airlines and governments are much more careful of where they will fly because of MH17, so we may hope that no future incidents of this type occur.


Actually some 15 minutes behind MH17 was a SQ 77W from CPH to SIN. When MH17 was ordered to FL330 & couldn't do it, ATC ordered the SQ jet to fly at FL330 instead.

Also if I recall correctly AI had a 787 heading towards BHX close by as well.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 598
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:15 pm

PW100 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Are you insinuating that MH had any part of responsibility in MH17???


Were other airlines flying over the eastern Ukraine at the time of the crash? That might be a reason to find fault with MH. But as others have said, airlines and governments are much more careful of where they will fly because of MH17, so we may hope that no future incidents of this type occur.


Were other airlines flying over the eastern Ukraine at the time of the crash?
Yes, most certainly. Hundreds of different airliners flew over eastern Ukraine the days before the crash, inlcuding KLM, SQ A380 and many more. In fact, there were only a handful of airlines not flying over the region.

So no reason to find fault with MH.


The MH17 final report states on this:


The list from EUROCONTROL reveals that the average number of international flights that flew through the UKDV (Dnipropetrovsk FIR) per day did not change after the unrest intensified in the eastern part of the Ukraine and the armed conflict increasingly expanded into the airspace. Even following the Ukrainian NOTAMs on 6 June, 1 July and 14 July 2014, there was no significant change in the number of flights through the UKDV; on average there were approximately 220 flights per day (see Figure 86).



Appendix R shows that he days before the shoot down (between 14 and 17 July) following operators flew through this air space:
* Aegean Al
* Aeroflot
* Aerologic
* Air Arabia
* Air Astana
* Air Baltic
* Air Europa
* Air France
* Air India
* Atlas Air
* Austrian Al
* Azerbaijan Hava Yollari
* Bangladesh Biman
* Belavia
* Business Jet Travel Airline Ltd
* Cargoilux Al
* Classic Jet
* Czech Al
* Delta Air Lines
* Dnieproavia
* Elitavia
* Emirates
* Etihad Al
* EVA Airways Corp
* Execujet Europe
* Federal Express
* Flydubai
* German Air Force
* Global Jet Luxembourg
* Hang Khong Viet Nam
* Ikar
* Jet Airways
* Jet Executive International Carrier
* KLM
* Lufthansa
* Lufthansa Cargo
* Malaysian Airlines System
* Montenegro Al
* NetJets
* Orenair
* Pakistan International Al
* Qatar Airways
* Shell Aircraft Company
* Singapore Al
* Singapore Al Cargo
* Swiss International Al
* Thai Airways
* Titan Aw
* TNT Aw
* Transaero Al
* Turkmenhovayollari
* Tyrolean Jet Service
* Ukraine International Al
* United Airlines
* UTAir-Ukraine Al
* Uzbekistan Aw
* Virgin Atlantic
* Vista Jet
* Wizz Air Ukraine
* Yamal Al
* Yanair


On the day of the accident no less than 160 commercial flights were conducted until the airspace was closed at 15:00 local time (immediately following the shoot down):
* Malaysian: 2x B772, 5x A388
* Aeroflot: 5x A320, 4x A321, 1x A333, 2x B77W
* Aerologic: 1x B77L
* Air Astana: 2x A321
* Air Baltic: 1x B733, 1x B735
* Air Europa: 1x B738
* Air India: 7x B788, 1x B77W, 1x B744
* Atlas Air : 1x B744
* Austrian: 2x F70, 1xB763
* Azerbaijan Hava: 2x E190, 4x A320, 1x B763
* Belavia: 1x CRJ2, 1x E170, 1x E190, 2x B733, 1x B735
* Cargolux: 2x B748
* Dnieproavia: 4x E145
* Eliavia: 1x GLEX
* Emirates:P 1x A345, 1x B77W, 1x A388
* Etihad: 2x A319, 1x B77L, 2x B77W
* EVA: 4x B77W, 1x B744
* Hang Khong: 4x B772
* Jet: 2x A333, 5x B77W
* Jet Executive: 1x LJ35
* KLM: 2x A332, 1x B772, 2x B77W
* Lufthansa: 1x A333, 3x A343, 2x A346, 3x B748
* Lufthansa Cargo: 2x MD11
* Orenair: 2x B738
* Pakistan: 1x B772, 1x B77L
* Qatar: 4x B788
* Singapore: 4x B772, 3x B77W, 9x A388
* Swiss: 1x A343
* Thai: 1x B772, 2x B77W, 4x A346, 4x B744, 4x A388
* Turkmenhovayollary: 1x B752
* Ukraine Int.: 1x E190, 1x B735, 2x B733, 1x B738, 1x B739
* UTAir Ukr.: 1x B738
* Uzbekistan: 2x B752, 3x B763
* Virgin: 4x A333
* Wizz Air Ukr.: 2x A320
* Yamal: 2x A321

https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/page/3546/mh17-crash-17-juli-2014


So really, Malaysian Airlines cannot be blamed in any way, it seems. Simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Do people think it was done intentionally, or by mistake for another type of aircraft? Why would anyone shoot down a Malaysian airliner on purpose? What payback? Or just inexperienced youthful Russophiles?
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 3811
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:08 pm

spinotter wrote:
. . .
So really, Malaysian Airlines cannot be blamed in any way, it seems. Simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Do people think it was done intentionally, or by mistake for another type of aircraft? Why would anyone shoot down a Malaysian airliner on purpose? What payback? Or just inexperienced youthful Russophiles?


My view: it was unintentional shoot down. MH17 was in the wrong place at he wrong time. It could have been an SQ A380, LH 748, KLM 77W, or any other of the hundreds of airliners crossing this airspace on a daily basis.
It is widely documented that the rebels were celebrating another Ukraine shoot down (fighter/helicopter) immediately following the shoot down. Only when it became apparent it was civilian, they stopped and even removed all previous communications and celebrations.


Main issue: The BUK launcher operating solitary.
The BUK system is a multi-vehicle system consisting of a command centre, (several) radar vehicles and (several) launch vehicles. The command vehicle is critical for target analysis and identification. Without those, firing a BUK missile is like firing a gun blind folded.

In this case, the BUK launcher operated solitary; ie. without command centre and without supporting radar. The launcher itself, is almost blind; its tracking radar has an extremely narrow field of vision, it needs the command centre to tell where to aim its tracking radar. Of course, when browsing that tracking radar through the sky, it will eventually find a target. Problem is, you really have no clue what your aiming at. It might be a friend or foe, or commercial airliner.

So whoever allowed/decided to operate the BUK launcher solitary carries the brunt of the responsibility of this tragic shoot down. The idea was probably that the rebels did not have any aircraft (and also did not receive air support from their Russian comrades), so in their mind any thing in the air would therefore be Ukraine based. Not realizing the hundreds of commercial airliners being sitting ducks . . .


Secondary issue: Ukraine air space not closed
While altitude restrictions were put in place by Ukraine ATC, these were based on light (shoulder-launched) missiles, which can’t reach much higher than 10000 – 20000 ft. You really need a fairly sophisticated system (like BUK) to reach airliner cruising altitude, and these systems, while in Ukraine inventory, were not in rebel inventory and were not used in the east-Ukraine battle field. Until the day of MH17 shoot down of course.

Notably, some countries (including UK) apparently suggested/instructed their airlines not to use Ukraine airspace the day before the shoot down, suggesting that at some level of (military) intelligence, information had become available that such advanced (BUK) system was making its way into this battle field. However this information was not shared widely. One could argue that some blame should rest on the shoulders of those that decided not to tell other airlines or ICAO.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 9982
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:16 am

The Russians seem to get worried.

ROTTERDAM - Russia would like to involve a possible crown witness in the MH17 trial, Vladimir Tsemach, in a prisoner exchange with Ukraine. The AD reports on the basis of three different sources, including the independent Russian news site The Insider.

Tsemach is a former military commander of the pro-Russian separatists who was arrested by Ukrainian soldiers at the end of June of the summer. According to some sources, the 58-year-old commander was at the time commander of the air defense near the place where the Buk rocket was fired, which shot down flight MH17.

The separatist soldier could be an important witness in the coming MH17 process. Sources of The Insider say that Moscow would even cancel the exchange without him. Negotiations on a prisoner exchange take place behind closed doors. According to Kiev, there is talk about it, but the consultation has not yet been completed.


Link in Dutch

They want to have a potential key witness back and thus actively getting him away from taking the stand against the 4 who will be prosecuted next year and probably against a lot more higher and lower up the chain of command.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:12 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The Russians seem to get worried.

ROTTERDAM - Russia would like to involve a possible crown witness in the MH17 trial, Vladimir Tsemach, in a prisoner exchange with Ukraine. The AD reports on the basis of three different sources, including the independent Russian news site The Insider.

Tsemach is a former military commander of the pro-Russian separatists who was arrested by Ukrainian soldiers at the end of June of the summer. According to some sources, the 58-year-old commander was at the time commander of the air defense near the place where the Buk rocket was fired, which shot down flight MH17.

The separatist soldier could be an important witness in the coming MH17 process. Sources of The Insider say that Moscow would even cancel the exchange without him. Negotiations on a prisoner exchange take place behind closed doors. According to Kiev, there is talk about it, but the consultation has not yet been completed.


Link in Dutch

They want to have a potential key witness back and thus actively getting him away from taking the stand against the 4 who will be prosecuted next year and probably against a lot more higher and lower up the chain of command.


"No loose ends" policy from Kremlin. Makes sense for them.
That would a real slap on the face of Ukrainian special ops teams, who coordinated capture and extraction of Tsemach from occupied territories of Donbass, into mainland Ukraine -- if Mr. Tsemach is returned to Ruskies.
Guys risked their lives to secure this valuable witness.
Still, considering how many Ukrainian prisoners were tortured and murdered by Ruskies in the occupied territories -- it is a classical Sophie's choice: give up Tsemach to Russia -- and valuable evidence of Russian crimes is lost; and Ruskies carry on with their crimes, pretending innocent. Send Tsemach to stand trial -- and Ruskies will torture and murder more prisoners. Horrible choice. Only one real, reliable solution -- Moscovia esse delendam...
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Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 598
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:58 pm

PW100 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
. . .
So really, Malaysian Airlines cannot be blamed in any way, it seems. Simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Do people think it was done intentionally, or by mistake for another type of aircraft? Why would anyone shoot down a Malaysian airliner on purpose? What payback? Or just inexperienced youthful Russophiles?


My view: it was unintentional shoot down. MH17 was in the wrong place at he wrong time. It could have been an SQ A380, LH 748, KLM 77W, or any other of the hundreds of airliners crossing this airspace on a daily basis.
It is widely documented that the rebels were celebrating another Ukraine shoot down (fighter/helicopter) immediately following the shoot down. Only when it became apparent it was civilian, they stopped and even removed all previous communications and celebrations.


Main issue: The BUK launcher operating solitary.
The BUK system is a multi-vehicle system consisting of a command centre, (several) radar vehicles and (several) launch vehicles. The command vehicle is critical for target analysis and identification. Without those, firing a BUK missile is like firing a gun blind folded.

In this case, the BUK launcher operated solitary; ie. without command centre and without supporting radar. The launcher itself, is almost blind; its tracking radar has an extremely narrow field of vision, it needs the command centre to tell where to aim its tracking radar. Of course, when browsing that tracking radar through the sky, it will eventually find a target. Problem is, you really have no clue what your aiming at. It might be a friend or foe, or commercial airliner.

So whoever allowed/decided to operate the BUK launcher solitary carries the brunt of the responsibility of this tragic shoot down. The idea was probably that the rebels did not have any aircraft (and also did not receive air support from their Russian comrades), so in their mind any thing in the air would therefore be Ukraine based. Not realizing the hundreds of commercial airliners being sitting ducks . . .


Secondary issue: Ukraine air space not closed
While altitude restrictions were put in place by Ukraine ATC, these were based on light (shoulder-launched) missiles, which can’t reach much higher than 10000 – 20000 ft. You really need a fairly sophisticated system (like BUK) to reach airliner cruising altitude, and these systems, while in Ukraine inventory, were not in rebel inventory and were not used in the east-Ukraine battle field. Until the day of MH17 shoot down of course.

Notably, some countries (including UK) apparently suggested/instructed their airlines not to use Ukraine airspace the day before the shoot down, suggesting that at some level of (military) intelligence, information had become available that such advanced (BUK) system was making its way into this battle field. However this information was not shared widely. One could argue that some blame should rest on the shoulders of those that decided not to tell other airlines or ICAO.


Thanks for the very informative answer.
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 3811
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:40 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The Russians seem to get worried.

ROTTERDAM - Russia would like to involve a possible crown witness in the MH17 trial, Vladimir Tsemach, in a prisoner exchange with Ukraine. The AD reports on the basis of three different sources, including the independent Russian news site The Insider.

Tsemach is a former military commander of the pro-Russian separatists who was arrested by Ukrainian soldiers at the end of June of the summer. According to some sources, the 58-year-old commander was at the time commander of the air defense near the place where the Buk rocket was fired, which shot down flight MH17.

The separatist soldier could be an important witness in the coming MH17 process. Sources of The Insider say that Moscow would even cancel the exchange without him. Negotiations on a prisoner exchange take place behind closed doors. According to Kiev, there is talk about it, but the consultation has not yet been completed.


Link in Dutch

They want to have a potential key witness back and thus actively getting him away from taking the stand against the 4 who will be prosecuted next year and probably against a lot more higher and lower up the chain of command.


The ironic thing is that the guy isn't even Russian! He's Ukraine citizen.

How could Russia demand/suggest prisoner swap to release non-Russian citizen . . . ??
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 3811
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:42 pm

spinotter wrote:
PW100 wrote:
[. . . .


Thanks for the very informative answer.


Happy I could help.

While the investigation team has done wonders, I feel that the above is lacking in attention, also in the main stream press.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1783
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:12 pm

I can't believe how stupid and careless the whole chain of command of the BUK launcher was. There was no identification of the target, they knew commercial airline flights routinely passed overhead. It was as if they just couldn't wait to try out their shiny new toy.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 9982
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:28 am

PW100 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The Russians seem to get worried.

ROTTERDAM - Russia would like to involve a possible crown witness in the MH17 trial, Vladimir Tsemach, in a prisoner exchange with Ukraine. The AD reports on the basis of three different sources, including the independent Russian news site The Insider.

Tsemach is a former military commander of the pro-Russian separatists who was arrested by Ukrainian soldiers at the end of June of the summer. According to some sources, the 58-year-old commander was at the time commander of the air defense near the place where the Buk rocket was fired, which shot down flight MH17.

The separatist soldier could be an important witness in the coming MH17 process. Sources of The Insider say that Moscow would even cancel the exchange without him. Negotiations on a prisoner exchange take place behind closed doors. According to Kiev, there is talk about it, but the consultation has not yet been completed.


Link in Dutch

They want to have a potential key witness back and thus actively getting him away from taking the stand against the 4 who will be prosecuted next year and probably against a lot more higher and lower up the chain of command.


The ironic thing is that the guy isn't even Russian! He's Ukraine citizen.

How could Russia demand/suggest prisoner swap to release non-Russian citizen . . . ??


Well, Russia is meddling in eastern Ukriane, and Putin is on record saying that he considers Ukraine as Russian territory, so not surprised at all.

The Dutch Public Defenders office (OM) formally requested that he will not be swapped, Vladimir Tsemach might be put on trial, and be extradited to the Netherlands. Would be an interesting twist.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 9982
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:56 pm

And 40 Members of the European Parliament have sent a letter to the Ukranian president, requesting that Vladimir Tsemach will not be included in the prisoners' exchange.

https://katipiri.nl/wp-content/uploads/ ... t-Ukraine-–-MH17-Suspect-Tsemakh-040919.pdf
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Western727
Posts: 1641
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
And 40 Members of the European Parliament have sent a letter to the Ukranian president, requesting that Vladimir Tsemach will not be included in the prisoners' exchange.

https://katipiri.nl/wp-content/uploads/ ... t-Ukraine-–-MH17-Suspect-Tsemakh-040919.pdf


Dutchy: the link didn't work for me, and I'm interested in seeing the letter. Do you have a corrected link, please?
Jack @ AUS
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 9982
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:12 pm

Western727 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And 40 Members of the European Parliament have sent a letter to the Ukranian president, requesting that Vladimir Tsemach will not be included in the prisoners' exchange.

https://katipiri.nl/wp-content/uploads/ ... t-Ukraine-–-MH17-Suspect-Tsemakh-040919.pdf


Dutchy: the link didn't work for me, and I'm interested in seeing the letter. Do you have a corrected link, please?



[url=https://katipiri.nl/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Letter-President-Ukraine-–-MH17-Suspect-Tsemakh-040919.pdf]link[/url]

Does that work?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3732
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:32 pm

Tsemakh had been released by court order. No bail or travel restrictions have been set. Changes are he’ll end up in Donetsk or Russia thus evading the MH17 tribunal.

Dutch source:
https://nos.nl/artikel/2300423-mh17-ver ... raine.html
Attamottamotta!

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