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Revelation
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A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:36 pm

FG ( https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... no-459718/ ) says:

Airbus has introduced a temporary revision to A321neo flight manuals intended to prevent the possibility of the aircraft reaching excessive pitch attitudes.

The European Union Aviation Safety Agency has disclosed that the revision follows analysis of the re-engined type's elevator and aileron computer.

It has not elaborated on the situation beyond stating that "excessive" pitch could occur under certain conditions and "during specific manoeuvres".

Hopefully not another case of a big aerospace corporation trying to avoid sim training.
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zuckie13
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:55 pm

It boils down to one similar concept as with Boeing/MCAS. Was sufficient testing done to have caught this characteristic and prevented this issue before these birds were flying or was this the result of rushing full speed to market where schedule and/or money requirements were a factor.
 
ukoverlander
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:28 pm

As we don't see any A321's flying themselves into the ground, or pilots reporting fighting with their aircraft to prevent such events from happening it would seem attempts to draw false equivalence in this case serves little purpose. Just sayin'.
 
StTim
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:47 pm

As I, a fool I know, understand it - as the A320 is a FBW aeroplane the all fixes are software related and part of the core flight envelope programming.

The MAX however required additional and new flight control software to become initially certifiable. A big difference.
 
Babyshark
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:55 pm

StTim wrote:
As I, a fool I know, understand it - as the A320 is a FBW aeroplane the all fixes are software related and part of the core flight envelope programming.

The MAX however required additional and new flight control software to become initially certifiable. A big difference.


You nailed it on the head. On one shot.
 
Sean-SAN-
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:58 pm

You can pull back on the side stick all day long and hard as you want, and the 320 will only pitch up to its software limit. Unlike a Boeing where it'll let you pull loops if you try hard enough. This should be a very simple software change.
 
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Aesma
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:05 pm

It's possible usual testing didn't go into the kind of situation where this would appear. In the case of MCAS, didn't Boeing know there would be a problem even before first flight, then it appeared more dire than anticipated ?
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sciing
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:46 pm

ukoverlander wrote:
As we don't see any A321's flying themselves into the ground, or pilots reporting fighting with their aircraft to prevent such events from happening it would seem attempts to draw false equivalence in this case serves little purpose. Just sayin'.

That‘s not right.
It happened, there were problems with 2 freezing AoA at the same time overruling the one correct left.
But this is exactly the problem of MCAS, Airbus FBW had even issues with 3 AoA/ADUs, so how could a manufacture design a plane with an automatic system relying on just one and how could the FAA approve it?
 
tomcat
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:59 pm

Revelation wrote:
FG ( https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... no-459718/ ) says:

Airbus has introduced a temporary revision to A321neo flight manuals intended to prevent the possibility of the aircraft reaching excessive pitch attitudes.

The European Union Aviation Safety Agency has disclosed that the revision follows analysis of the re-engined type's elevator and aileron computer.

It has not elaborated on the situation beyond stating that "excessive" pitch could occur under certain conditions and "during specific manoeuvres".

Hopefully not another case of a big aerospace corporation trying to avoid sim training.


It's interesting that this issue only affects the A321neo and not the A320neo (so far at least). One would think that the A321 has more pitch authority than the A320 given its greater length than the latter, so it would be less sensitive to any pitch anomaly.
 
SEU
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:01 pm

This almost confirms why Airbus has been so silent over the MAX and Boeing recently. The MAX crashes with fatalities would have opened the authorities eyes at not just Boeing, but Airbus as well. The "what else have we missed". I am glad they are scrutinising Airbus and this seems to me to be just that.

Boeing put bigger engines on a plane, caused pitching, Airbus did the same.....lets take a closer look.
 
smartplane
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:07 pm

Airbus has been replicating MAX scenarios on A320, and confirming simulator integrity. Probably happening across all models, including at Boeing and Mitsi too.

New respect for airworthiness authorities.
 
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:10 pm

ukoverlander wrote:
As we don't see any A321's flying themselves into the ground, or pilots reporting fighting with their aircraft to prevent such events from happening it would seem attempts to draw false equivalence in this case serves little purpose. Just sayin'.

No grand "false equivalence", my only comment was with regard to sim training.

We have an example here where putting more words in a manual is enough to deal with '"excessive" pitch could occur under certain conditions and "during specific manoeuvres"'.

We have a lot of knee jerk reactions here on this thread, but none along the lines of suggesting sim training is needed to deal with the above.

We should then not be surprised if regulators such as EASA declare that the fixed MCAS is docile enough that sim training is not needed, right?
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Babyshark
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:25 pm

SEU wrote:
Boeing put bigger engines on a plane, caused pitching, Airbus did the same.....lets take a closer look.


Cool thing about the Bus is (not with pax) you can take the power and shove it to TOGA and slam it to idle and back and forth and the FBW compensates in pitch.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:32 pm

Babyshark wrote:
SEU wrote:
Boeing put bigger engines on a plane, caused pitching, Airbus did the same.....lets take a closer look.


Cool thing about the Bus is (not with pax) you can take the power and shove it to TOGA and slam it to idle and back and forth and the FBW compensates in pitch.


All fine and well until the pilots don't realize they are in direct law like AF 447 and Air Asia 8501. With as many screw ups as that has caused I am flabbergasted why the aviation authorities don't require Airbus to install loud aural warnings and noticable visual indicators when the flight protections degrade.
 
FlyHPN
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:35 pm

Read the title and thought: “Wow, more overpromising and underdelivering by the Airbus sales team?”
 
WayexTDI
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:37 pm

ScottB wrote:
Babyshark wrote:
Its FBW. All day long.

So easy fix. With a keyboard.

Unlike trying to put FBW on a 1960s design.


Er, the revisions to MCAS are also apparently software fixes. So basically fixed with a keyboard. One would assume that any revisions to the A32Xneo FBW software to eliminate this anomalous situation would be required to go through a similar verification and validation process as the MCAS revisions. Fortunately, this anomaly hasn't yet killed anyone.

Weren't there talks that the microprocessor needed replacing as it couldn't handle the amount of data needed for reading both AOA sensors at the same time?
 
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:49 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
ScottB wrote:
Babyshark wrote:
Its FBW. All day long.

So easy fix. With a keyboard.

Unlike trying to put FBW on a 1960s design.


Er, the revisions to MCAS are also apparently software fixes. So basically fixed with a keyboard. One would assume that any revisions to the A32Xneo FBW software to eliminate this anomalous situation would be required to go through a similar verification and validation process as the MCAS revisions. Fortunately, this anomaly hasn't yet killed anyone.

Weren't there talks that the microprocessor needed replacing as it couldn't handle the amount of data needed for reading both AOA sensors at the same time?

Yes, false ones. Welcome to the "shoot first, as questions later" media era.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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planecane
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:51 pm

StTim wrote:
As I, a fool I know, understand it - as the A320 is a FBW aeroplane the all fixes are software related and part of the core flight envelope programming.

The MAX however required additional and new flight control software to become initially certifiable. A big difference.

The issue with the MAX wasn't that it required new flight control software. The issue was that the software was designed to rely on a single sensor and not put through a proper failure analysis.

If MCAS 2.0 was the initial design there wouldn't have been an issue needing to add it.
 
planecane
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:53 pm

Babyshark wrote:
SEU wrote:
Boeing put bigger engines on a plane, caused pitching, Airbus did the same.....lets take a closer look.


Cool thing about the Bus is (not with pax) you can take the power and shove it to TOGA and slam it to idle and back and forth and the FBW compensates in pitch.

Why would a pilot want to do that regardless of passengers on board? If you want to do a roller coaster ride why not just push forward and pull back on the stick?
 
2175301
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:04 pm

My read on the situation is that Boeing (and their subcontractors) made a mistake in their Failure Modes and Effects Analysis (FMEA), and that the FAA process was not robust enough to catch it. It was not intentional. It was not because they specifically cut corners or considered cost more important than safety, it was not because of a bad safety culture, it was not because of subcontractors, etc.

Many of those issues have been brought to light; yet, every commercial product sold has the same discussions on what is the balance and what is good enough, and how to properly regulate (if at all); and people make mistakes. That's normal. Sometimes people are seriously injured, made sick, or die by such mistakes. It's unfortunate; and, happens a lot in the world for many products. Yet, products tend to get better with time...

Aviation has a process for correcting things when issues are found; and is working through that process. It's quite apparent the the future FAA process will entail a more detailed review of the FMEA's.

In this case, this self correction process now drives a closer look with the Airbus aircraft line... because they have had the same discussions and compromises and settling on what is "good enough."

Since no one is perfect... and all the products are designed to a "good enough" standard (except rare science and military cases where money is no object) it has now been identified that there is at least a somewhat similar trim control issue, in some ways, with the A321neo. I actually expected something like this would turn up (and knew that there would be Airbus Engineers looking at the Boeing 737Max8 issue and wondering and praying that they don't find something similar and significant).

I will not be surprised if more pop up.

This is the overall Regulatory and Aircraft Manufacturers working properly. The goal is to identify issues before a crash, and fix them. Identify issues involved in crashes (or events) and fix them. Not to never have any issues. Cost/Benefit analysis, estimates, and management decisions on what is good enough are a fact of life; and are part of every Airbus, Boeing, etc. aircraft. Every product and service you or a company purchase involves those.

The 737Max8 MCAS issue is making both companies and the regulatory agencies better... at least at this time. Unfortunately, you cannot stop the pendulum swinging. Things get better, they get worse, they get better, etc... forever. That will always be.

Have a great day,
 
zuckie13
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:32 pm

tomcat wrote:
Revelation wrote:
FG ( https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... no-459718/ ) says:

Airbus has introduced a temporary revision to A321neo flight manuals intended to prevent the possibility of the aircraft reaching excessive pitch attitudes.

The European Union Aviation Safety Agency has disclosed that the revision follows analysis of the re-engined type's elevator and aileron computer.

It has not elaborated on the situation beyond stating that "excessive" pitch could occur under certain conditions and "during specific manoeuvres".

Hopefully not another case of a big aerospace corporation trying to avoid sim training.


It's interesting that this issue only affects the A321neo and not the A320neo (so far at least). One would think that the A321 has more pitch authority than the A320 given its greater length than the latter, so it would be less sensitive to any pitch anomaly.


Not necessarily. It may be a bit further from the point of rotation, but it's also got to rotate a heavier load with the same elevator.
 
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:45 pm

Revelation wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
ScottB wrote:

Er, the revisions to MCAS are also apparently software fixes. So basically fixed with a keyboard. One would assume that any revisions to the A32Xneo FBW software to eliminate this anomalous situation would be required to go through a similar verification and validation process as the MCAS revisions. Fortunately, this anomaly hasn't yet killed anyone.

Weren't there talks that the microprocessor needed replacing as it couldn't handle the amount of data needed for reading both AOA sensors at the same time?

Yes, false ones. Welcome to the "shoot first, as questions later" media era.


In this world though, how can you prove its not true?
 
Chemist
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:59 pm

ukoverlander wrote:
As we don't see any A321's flying themselves into the ground, or pilots reporting fighting with their aircraft to prevent such events from happening it would seem attempts to draw false equivalence in this case serves little purpose. Just sayin'.


So wait until the crashes then?
 
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:31 am

planecane wrote:
Babyshark wrote:
SEU wrote:
Boeing put bigger engines on a plane, caused pitching, Airbus did the same.....lets take a closer look.


Cool thing about the Bus is (not with pax) you can take the power and shove it to TOGA and slam it to idle and back and forth and the FBW compensates in pitch.

Why would a pilot want to do that regardless of passengers on board? If you want to do a roller coaster ride why not just push forward and pull back on the stick?

Missing the point, the way it’s system is set up it can do that but the system does a lot more based on that programming to ensure safe flight unlike a 737.

If passengers want a rollercoaster ride they can go on a MAX and enjoy that stupid rollercoaster bandaid fix maneuver they can do when the thing buggers up it’s trim... that is if they were flying.
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T
 
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:40 am

PixelPilot wrote:
Babyshark wrote:
Its FBW. All day long.

So easy fix. With a keyboard.

Unlike trying to put FBW on a 1960s design.

Thanks for wishcasting!


Early start protecting your god. Good lad.


Probably typed on his 1988 Apple IIGS - another piece of technology from the same era :bitelip:

Kidding aside - let's wait until we hear more before we start drawing conclusions to MCAS.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
triple3driver
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:40 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Babyshark wrote:
SEU wrote:
Boeing put bigger engines on a plane, caused pitching, Airbus did the same.....lets take a closer look.


Cool thing about the Bus is (not with pax) you can take the power and shove it to TOGA and slam it to idle and back and forth and the FBW compensates in pitch.


All fine and well until the pilots don't realize they are in direct law like AF 447 and Air Asia 8501. With as many screw ups as that has caused I am flabbergasted why the aviation authorities don't require Airbus to install loud aural warnings and noticeable visual indicators when the flight protections degrade.

Maybe because Airbus does that already? When that occurs, you get an ECAM alert stating that the flight control laws have changed, along with an aural chime. The issue wasn't so much that the pilots didn't realize that they were in Direct Law so much as they weren't adequately trained to operate the aircraft in Direct Law. I'm fully confident that that the 777 and 787, along with every other FBW aircraft have an aural chime with a corresponding message on the ECAM/EICAS
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Weatherwatcher1
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:49 am

zuckie13 wrote:
It boils down to one similar concept as with Boeing/MCAS. Was sufficient testing done to have caught this characteristic and prevented this issue before these birds were flying or was this the result of rushing full speed to market where schedule and/or money requirements were a factor.


I’m curious as well. Most ADs come out because there was a significant event that happened in service that was deemed an unsafe condition. THe issue is then resolved through the safety resolution process with the end result being a design change and service bulletin with an accompanying Airworthiness Directive.

This type of situation is relatively common. I would expect Airbus to get about a dozen reportable events that they analyze every day. Only a small fraction result in Airworthiness Directives. The root cause and safety lessons learned will determine if it was related to sufficient testing or if there were other factors causing the issue. The regulatory authorities monitor all of this.
 
ukoverlander
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:53 am

Chemist wrote:
ukoverlander wrote:
As we don't see any A321's flying themselves into the ground, or pilots reporting fighting with their aircraft to prevent such events from happening it would seem attempts to draw false equivalence in this case serves little purpose. Just sayin'.


So wait until the crashes then?


Hmm...responding to a point about false equivalence with........ false equivalence.
 
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tb727
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:58 am

I have found the A320neo to be quite "pitchy" on takeoff, definitely different from the ceo . I wonder if this is one of the conditions they are referring to in the A321neo in this article.
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WBM
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:19 am

2175301 wrote:
My read on the situation is that Boeing (and their subcontractors) made a mistake in their Failure Modes and Effects Analysis (FMEA), and that the FAA process was not robust enough to catch it. It was not intentional. It was not because they specifically cut corners or considered cost more important than safety, it was not because of a bad safety culture, it was not because of subcontractors, etc.

Many of those issues have been brought to light; yet, every commercial product sold has the same discussions on what is the balance and what is good enough, and how to properly regulate (if at all); and people make mistakes. That's normal. Sometimes people are seriously injured, made sick, or die by such mistakes. It's unfortunate; and, happens a lot in the world for many products. Yet, products tend to get better with time...

Aviation has a process for correcting things when issues are found; and is working through that process. It's quite apparent the the future FAA process will entail a more detailed review of the FMEA's.

In this case, this self correction process now drives a closer look with the Airbus aircraft line... because they have had the same discussions and compromises and settling on what is "good enough."

Since no one is perfect... and all the products are designed to a "good enough" standard (except rare science and military cases where money is no object) it has now been identified that there is at least a somewhat similar trim control issue, in some ways, with the A321neo. I actually expected something like this would turn up (and knew that there would be Airbus Engineers looking at the Boeing 737Max8 issue and wondering and praying that they don't find something similar and significant).

I will not be surprised if more pop up.

This is the overall Regulatory and Aircraft Manufacturers working properly. The goal is to identify issues before a crash, and fix them. Identify issues involved in crashes (or events) and fix them. Not to never have any issues. Cost/Benefit analysis, estimates, and management decisions on what is good enough are a fact of life; and are part of every Airbus, Boeing, etc. aircraft. Every product and service you or a company purchase involves those.

The 737Max8 MCAS issue is making both companies and the regulatory agencies better... at least at this time. Unfortunately, you cannot stop the pendulum swinging. Things get better, they get worse, they get better, etc... forever. That will always be.

Have a great day,


I really appreciate this response. I think the way that things get better is when clear headed people try to figure out what went wrong, so that those lessons can be applied in the future. Hopefully there are lessons that will be learned.
 
RawSushi
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:49 am

Seems like most people either didn't read the article or even if they did, didn't comprehend it.

Airbus has issued temporary revisions to the aircraft's flight manual incorporating operational limitations.


Airbus knows exactly when this problem could happen, tells pilots to avoid those conditions. It's completely predictable and manageable. This seems no different from other issues where control measures can be easily put in place to mitigate the risk e.g. inspection cycles being shortened for certain blocks of engines.

Whereas with MCAS it's a potentially fatal malfunction that could happen at any time. Information about this feature was deliberately hidden from pilots, and the assumption that pilots could easily save the plane has now been completely debunked.
 
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:06 am

Babyshark wrote:
SEU wrote:
Boeing put bigger engines on a plane, caused pitching, Airbus did the same.....lets take a closer look.


Cool thing about the Bus is (not with pax) you can take the power and shove it to TOGA and slam it to idle and back and forth and the FBW compensates in pitch.


So would a Boeing airplane if you had the Autopilot engaged. What’s your point?
 
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:11 am

triple3driver wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Babyshark wrote:

Cool thing about the Bus is (not with pax) you can take the power and shove it to TOGA and slam it to idle and back and forth and the FBW compensates in pitch.


All fine and well until the pilots don't realize they are in direct law like AF 447 and Air Asia 8501. With as many screw ups as that has caused I am flabbergasted why the aviation authorities don't require Airbus to install loud aural warnings and noticeable visual indicators when the flight protections degrade.

Maybe because Airbus does that already? When that occurs, you get an ECAM alert stating that the flight control laws have changed, along with an aural chime. The issue wasn't so much that the pilots didn't realize that they were in Direct Law so much as they weren't adequately trained to operate the aircraft in Direct Law. I'm fully confident that that the 777 and 787, along with every other FBW aircraft have an aural chime with a corresponding message on the ECAM/EICAS


The 777 and 787 give an EICAS caution level message if the Flight Control system degrades. That includes the Master Caution Light and Caution Beeper aural, and Amber text on the EICAS Display, just like all Caution level messages.

If you degrade to Secondary Mode, text is FLIGHT CONTROL MODE.

If you degrade to Direct Mode, text is PRI FLIGHT COMPUTERS.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:18 am

Sean-SAN- wrote:
You can pull back on the side stick all day long and hard as you want, and the 320 will only pitch up to its software limit. Unlike a Boeing where it'll let you pull loops if you try hard enough. This should be a very simple software change.


That’s because it’s Boeing’s philosophy that the Captain has ultimate authority of the airplane, not the computer.

Most Boeing airplanes will greatly increase force on the stick to give the crew tactile feedback they are approaching a stall. This discourages such action. Then you get Stick Shaker. Further, the 777 and 787 FBW system would give a nose down command. A few other older models have Stick Pushers also.

Not like the Boeing airplane would just sit back and let you pull loops with giving multiple tactile and visual indications that’s not a good idea. But yes, the Boeing pilots have ultimate control unlike their worthy and esteemed competitor.
 
DenverTed
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:24 am

Why is this on the A321n and not the A320n?
 
planecane
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:40 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
Sean-SAN- wrote:
You can pull back on the side stick all day long and hard as you want, and the 320 will only pitch up to its software limit. Unlike a Boeing where it'll let you pull loops if you try hard enough. This should be a very simple software change.


That’s because it’s Boeing’s philosophy that the Captain has ultimate authority of the airplane, not the computer.

Most Boeing airplanes will greatly increase force on the stick to give the crew tactile feedback they are approaching a stall. This discourages such action. Then you get Stick Shaker. Further, the 777 and 787 FBW system would give a nose down command. A few other older models have Stick Pushers also.

Not like the Boeing airplane would just sit back and let you pull loops with giving multiple tactile and visual indications that’s not a good idea. But yes, the Boeing pilots have ultimate control unlike their worthy and esteemed competitor.

From what I've read a pilot would have to try really really hard to stall a 777. I assume the 787 is similar.
 
Etheereal
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:45 am

People you're missing something important: Yes, the flight/plane computer can correct it, BUT, and here's the trick part: If for some reason ALT LAW is enabled, you can be your life there's no computer correcting whatever excessive pitch the engine thrust can do.

ukoverlander wrote:
As we don't see any A321's flying themselves into the ground, or pilots reporting fighting with their aircraft to prevent such events from happening it would seem attempts to draw false equivalence in this case serves little purpose. Just sayin'.

Its not Boeing but Airbus (the maker) making the warnings.
Last edited by Etheereal on Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:49 am

tomcat wrote:
It's interesting that this issue only affects the A321neo and not the A320neo (so far at least). One would think that the A321 has more pitch authority than the A320 given its greater length than the latter, so it would be less sensitive to any pitch anomaly.


The A321 has a longer body than the A320 and so it could be that increased moment arm that is the issue, but why would it only be an A321NEO issue and not an A320-100 issue?

Perhaps it has something to do with some odd vaguery of aerodynamics or perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the axis of thrust is further from the wing than before. No matter what it is, the A320 family's FBW design should make this into an easy software fix.

It doesn't seem to be a thing that has actually happened, but rather a precaution. Airframers are constantly finding minor flaws in their designs after EIS and correcting them. This is a good thing; we'd rather they not go uncorrected.
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Etheereal
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:53 am

DenverTed wrote:
Why is this on the A321n and not the A320n?

A321 has hairdresser engines, like the A343. So when you add a big ass and powerful engine on it, the consecuence is increase of thrust and AoA.

triple3driver wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Babyshark wrote:

Cool thing about the Bus is (not with pax) you can take the power and shove it to TOGA and slam it to idle and back and forth and the FBW compensates in pitch.


All fine and well until the pilots don't realize they are in direct law like AF 447 and Air Asia 8501. With as many screw ups as that has caused I am flabbergasted why the aviation authorities don't require Airbus to install loud aural warnings and noticeable visual indicators when the flight protections degrade.

Maybe because Airbus does that already? When that occurs, you get an ECAM alert stating that the flight control laws have changed, along with an aural chime. The issue wasn't so much that the pilots didn't realize that they were in Direct Law so much as they weren't adequately trained to operate the aircraft in Direct Law. I'm fully confident that that the 777 and 787, along with every other FBW aircraft have an aural chime with a corresponding message on the ECAM/EICAS

They were not on Direct law but Alternate. Direct has stall protections, Alt doesnt.
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

:lol:
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:20 am

Etheereal wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
Why is this on the A321n and not the A320n?

A321 has hairdresser engines, like the A343. So when you add a big ass and powerful engine on it, the consecuence is increase of thrust and AoA.

triple3driver wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

All fine and well until the pilots don't realize they are in direct law like AF 447 and Air Asia 8501. With as many screw ups as that has caused I am flabbergasted why the aviation authorities don't require Airbus to install loud aural warnings and noticeable visual indicators when the flight protections degrade.

Maybe because Airbus does that already? When that occurs, you get an ECAM alert stating that the flight control laws have changed, along with an aural chime. The issue wasn't so much that the pilots didn't realize that they were in Direct Law so much as they weren't adequately trained to operate the aircraft in Direct Law. I'm fully confident that that the 777 and 787, along with every other FBW aircraft have an aural chime with a corresponding message on the ECAM/EICAS

They were not on Direct law but Alternate. Direct has stall protections, Alt doesnt.


No, there is no stall protection in direct law.

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Fli ... ernate_Law
 
787SIN
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:41 am

Does anyone have a copy of the AFM TRs as mentioned in the AD? Be interesting to know what the actual limitation is.

As it only affects L102 ELAC software standard, perhaps operators can regress the modification standard of their ELACs to L101 standard to remove the AFM limitation? Whilst AIB develops a new ELAC standard.
 
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seahawk
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:18 am

Not good news. Shows that you can up-date old designs only for so long.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:52 am

JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

I have seen the above around a.net recently, with others finding it funny! I would be very happy if someone could explain this to me - as a European, there must be something American here that I don't get
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:21 am

Etheereal wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
Why is this on the A321n and not the A320n?

A321 has hairdresser engines, like the A343. So when you add a big ass and powerful engine on it, the consecuence is increase of thrust and AoA.

triple3driver wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

All fine and well until the pilots don't realize they are in direct law like AF 447 and Air Asia 8501. With as many screw ups as that has caused I am flabbergasted why the aviation authorities don't require Airbus to install loud aural warnings and noticeable visual indicators when the flight protections degrade.

Maybe because Airbus does that already? When that occurs, you get an ECAM alert stating that the flight control laws have changed, along with an aural chime. The issue wasn't so much that the pilots didn't realize that they were in Direct Law so much as they weren't adequately trained to operate the aircraft in Direct Law. I'm fully confident that that the 777 and 787, along with every other FBW aircraft have an aural chime with a corresponding message on the ECAM/EICAS

They were not on Direct law but Alternate. Direct has stall protections, Alt doesnt.


Nothing you say here is factually correct. There is no stall protection in either Secondary or Direct Modes on the 777 and 787. That’s why they are in degraded modes. They lack sufficient data to perform all the protection functions. But the airplane can be flown safely if flown safely by the pilots.
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:04 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
That’s because it’s Boeing’s philosophy that the Captain has ultimate authority of the airplane, not the computer.

That philosophy was a bad joke in case of the MAX....


Well no. You have a complete misunderstanding of this issues, but that seems typical of A.net lately. Please explain for us the technical details for us why exactly that philosophy was a bad joke.

Believe me, I have a very precise understanding of the issue.

I admit, that I could have worded my statement better though. Like this:
"That philosophy was betrayed badly by Boeing in case of the MAX".

To a degree, that the MAX now has the worst safety record of any new aircraft since many decades (as opposed to the A321neo).

In many cases even US pilots in sim were not able to safe the aircraft. Sully confirmed. Mentourpilot demonstrated how this Boeing "philosophy" even depends on the physical strength of the men in the cockpit. Two times in an incredibly short time the MAX overwhelmed the pilots by an automatic pitch control system and crashed the aircraft.

Planes where the pilot truly has the ultimate authority don't do that, e.g. the A321, despite flying in much larger numbers.
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keesje
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:48 am

Babyshark wrote:
StTim wrote:
As I, a fool I know, understand it - as the A320 is a FBW aeroplane the all fixes are software related and part of the core flight envelope programming.

The MAX however required additional and new flight control software to become initially certifiable. A big difference.


You nailed it on the head. On one shot.


Aircraft are incomparable. The Airbusses are one big software fix and have flight envelope protection standard, not as an add on.

Still I think it is good aviation safety practice when problems show up on one aircraft to explore if similar problems can occur on others. Better than try to downplay, hide and miss-inform end users because of dominant economical trade-offs.

For those interested A320 'excessive pitch' stall testing by pilot / rock star Bruce Dickinson https://youtu.be/IKBABNL-DDM?t=258

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AirKevin
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:47 am

planecane wrote:
From what I've read a pilot would have to try really really hard to stall a 777.

Might want to tell Asiana that.
sassiciai wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

I have seen the above around a.net recently, with others finding it funny! I would be very happy if someone could explain this to me - as a European, there must be something American here that I don't get

Around here, you always see in the news "Florida man (insert some crazy action here)." This seems to be a more recent trend. On here, you always see in the news of a 737 sliding off the runway.
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Revelation
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:25 pm

RawSushi wrote:
Seems like most people either didn't read the article or even if they did, didn't comprehend it.

Airbus has issued temporary revisions to the aircraft's flight manual incorporating operational limitations.

Airbus knows exactly when this problem could happen, tells pilots to avoid those conditions. It's completely predictable and manageable. This seems no different from other issues where control measures can be easily put in place to mitigate the risk e.g. inspection cycles being shortened for certain blocks of engines.

I'm glad you can infer all that from one sentence.

Yet as I wrote we have an example here where putting more words in a manual is enough to deal with '"excessive" pitch could occur under certain conditions and "during specific manoeuvres"'.

How is a pilot supposed to have a feel for what excessive pitch is without experiencing the certain conditions during specific manoeuvers being described in a sim?

Or is the industry saying it's OK with documenting certain parts of the flight envelope as being off limits and avoiding sim training?

RawSushi wrote:
Whereas with MCAS it's a potentially fatal malfunction that could happen at any time. Information about this feature was deliberately hidden from pilots, and the assumption that pilots could easily save the plane has now been completely debunked.

Yet we see the FAA and EASA writing ferry permits for 737 so MCAS must be somewhat easily saved so your complete debunking is now debunked.

AirKevin wrote:
Around here, you always see in the news "Florida man (insert some crazy action here)." This seems to be a more recent trend. On here, you always see in the news of a 737 sliding off the runway.

Yep:

Internet users typically submit links to news stories and articles about unusual or strange crimes or events occurring in Florida, particularly those where "Florida Man" is mentioned in the headline and has been wreaking havoc. The meme calls attention to Florida's supposed notoriety for strange and unusual events.[1] Miami New Times noted that freedom of information laws in Florida make it easier for journalists to obtain information about arrests from the police than in other states and that this is responsible for the large number of news articles.[2]

The meme was originated in February 2013 by the Twitter feed @_FloridaMan, which quoted news headlines containing the words "Florida man", such as "Florida man run over by van after dog pushes accelerator" or "Police arrest Florida man for drunken joy ride on motorized scooter at Wal-Mart."[1] The feed refers to Florida Man as the "World's Worst Superhero."[1][3]

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Man
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JetBuddy
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:43 pm

AirKevin wrote:
planecane wrote:
From what I've read a pilot would have to try really really hard to stall a 777.

Might want to tell Asiana that.
sassiciai wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

I have seen the above around a.net recently, with others finding it funny! I would be very happy if someone could explain this to me - as a European, there must be something American here that I don't get

Around here, you always see in the news "Florida man (insert some crazy action here)." This seems to be a more recent trend. On here, you always see in the news of a 737 sliding off the runway.


Yes. The funny thing is that the comment I made got deleted by mods, but before then it was picked up by someone who put it in their signature. I'm honored. :rotfl:

Back on topic:

Airbus has had many good reasons to not "rock the boat" during the 737 MAX grounding issue.

For one it would be in bad taste. Another reason is that Airbus isn't interested in aviation authorities deep diving into their own "grandfathered" designs. A third one might be this issues like this one with the A321neo. On the surface it sounds fairly similar to the MCAS problem, even though it's probably not.

Commercial airliners have always had quirks and different flight characteristics. The DC-9 / MD-80 series all flew differently. And I mean every single frame flew differently. A little too much roll and you lose altitude fast. But with manual flying and rudimentary autopilot systems it wasn't a problem. The problem arises when the computers are flying the plane on your behalf through fly-by-wire, translating and adjusting every input you make into action that fits in the computer's flight envelope. Now the computer is in charge. And God help us if it's not doing what it should do.
 
tommy1808
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:45 pm

Revelation wrote:
Yet we see the FAA and EASA writing ferry permits for 737 so MCAS must be somewhat easily saved so your complete debunking is now debunked.


Not really.... EASA allows those ferry flights for select pilots, with flaps extended and at lower altitudes to stay the hell away from anything that could remotely get MCAS to do anything.

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Thomas
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