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SQ22
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:32 pm

May I kindly ask you not to turn this thread into another 737 MAX discussion? Thanks.
 
marcelh
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:36 pm

Revelation wrote:
Hopefully not another case of a big aerospace corporation trying to avoid sim training.

Where is this conclusion based on?
 
akb88
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:38 pm

Isn't this the safety system within the industry working as it should though? A potential problem identified, addressed and hopefully resolved. With regulators, manufacturer and operators all involved and in the loop.
 
Prost
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:42 pm

Okay, when I saw this I thought seat pitch initially. Let me refill my coffee.
 
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Revelation
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:47 pm

marcelh wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Hopefully not another case of a big aerospace corporation trying to avoid sim training.

Where is this conclusion based on?

It's not a conclusion.

The question/issue I raise is (repeating from #48):

Revelation wrote:
Yet as I wrote we have an example here where putting more words in a manual is enough to deal with '"excessive" pitch could occur under certain conditions and "during specific manoeuvres"'.

How is a pilot supposed to have a feel for what excessive pitch is without experiencing the certain conditions during specific manoeuvers being described in a sim?

Or is the industry saying it's OK with documenting certain parts of the flight envelope as being off limits and avoiding sim training?
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:08 pm

SQ22 wrote:
May I kindly ask you not to turn this thread into another 737 MAX discussion? Thanks.


I'm sorry, but when you first saw the title of this thread, what did you honestly expect?
 
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:12 pm

SQ22 wrote:
May I kindly ask you not to turn this thread into another 737 MAX discussion? Thanks.


We could start a thread about Mickey Mouse cartoons and it would inevitably turn into another 737 Max discussion.
 
426Shadow
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:18 pm

I just want to know, where are all the people who were screaming “YOU CANT FIX A BAD DESIGN WITH SOFTWARE!!!!”.
Do it on three, One.....THREEEEEEE! Just got the nuts hangin out.
 
Babyshark
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:24 pm

426Shadow wrote:
I just want to know, where are all the people who were screaming “YOU CANT FIX A BAD DESIGN WITH SOFTWARE!!!!”.


I know where they are.

They're over at the FAA and EASA screaming at Boeing that “YOU CANT FIX A BAD DESIGN WITH SOFTWARE!!!!”

And they're being heard.
 
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:53 pm

SQ22 wrote:
May I kindly ask you not to turn this thread into another 737 MAX discussion? Thanks.



Surely if this is your hope the OP should have been tackled from the start?

Hopefully not another case of a big aerospace corporation trying to avoid sim training.


That is drawing direct parallels with the 737 instead of focusing on the A321neo.
 
Elementalism
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:57 pm

Revelation wrote:
FG ( https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... no-459718/ ) says:

Airbus has introduced a temporary revision to A321neo flight manuals intended to prevent the possibility of the aircraft reaching excessive pitch attitudes.

The European Union Aviation Safety Agency has disclosed that the revision follows analysis of the re-engined type's elevator and aileron computer.

It has not elaborated on the situation beyond stating that "excessive" pitch could occur under certain conditions and "during specific manoeuvres".

Hopefully not another case of a big aerospace corporation trying to avoid sim training.



I was wondering how the A320\321 NEO were alleviating the natural nose up behavior with larger engines. Looks like they will have to implement some form of trim control to make it feel like an A321 CEO
 
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:19 pm

Elementalism wrote:
Revelation wrote:
FG ( https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... no-459718/ ) says:

Airbus has introduced a temporary revision to A321neo flight manuals intended to prevent the possibility of the aircraft reaching excessive pitch attitudes.

The European Union Aviation Safety Agency has disclosed that the revision follows analysis of the re-engined type's elevator and aileron computer.

It has not elaborated on the situation beyond stating that "excessive" pitch could occur under certain conditions and "during specific manoeuvres".

Hopefully not another case of a big aerospace corporation trying to avoid sim training.



I was wondering how the A320\321 NEO were alleviating the natural nose up behavior with larger engines. Looks like they will have to implement some form of trim control to make it feel like an A321 CEO


Uh... how does a A321 CEO feel? It feels like nothing. The pilots feel a side stick connected to springs, not to the flight controls. They dont feel air flowing over the wing like a Cessna 172.

The FBW is in full command. It is not a 737 in any way. As I mentioned earlier with the AP off the FBW compensates for power adjustments even with the AP Off and no pilot input.

The GTF engines provide the same thrust as the CFMs, at least the ones my airline ordered. If the engines are causing an issue they can tighten the ELAC standard. They do that often as needed when they see an issue. For instance what was logical for landing when it comes to spoiler deployment was found to be a problem if there was a bounce and poor pilot skills resulted in a plane 50 feet off a bounce at idle and spoilers fully deploying, so they changed the ELAC standard anyways just in case. Other jets are stuck with a air ground switch that cannot be changed.

They can tighten protections at will. Make a protection tighter in certain regimes. They can do this because its FBW from the start and in everything it does. There is 0 mechanical connection of that side stick to ailerons or elevator. Its computer and computer codes spread across multiple computers and then backed up by more computers.

That's not the 737 and the Boeing folks need to come to understand that at some point. At least so they stop getting laughed at during a #youtoo moment.
 
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:09 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Etheereal wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
Why is this on the A321n and not the A320n?

A321 has hairdresser engines, like the A343. So when you add a big ass and powerful engine on it, the consecuence is increase of thrust and AoA.

triple3driver wrote:
Maybe because Airbus does that already? When that occurs, you get an ECAM alert stating that the flight control laws have changed, along with an aural chime. The issue wasn't so much that the pilots didn't realize that they were in Direct Law so much as they weren't adequately trained to operate the aircraft in Direct Law. I'm fully confident that that the 777 and 787, along with every other FBW aircraft have an aural chime with a corresponding message on the ECAM/EICAS

They were not on Direct law but Alternate. Direct has stall protections, Alt doesnt.


Nothing you say here is factually correct. There is no stall protection in either Secondary or Direct Modes on the 777 and 787. That’s why they are in degraded modes. They lack sufficient data to perform all the protection functions. But the airplane can be flown safely if flown safely by the pilots.

I quoted the wrong person, i menat to quote the guy that was talking about direct law and AF447. I know the 77 and 78 dont have those.
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

:lol:
 
StTim
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:28 pm

SQ22 wrote:
May I kindly ask you not to turn this thread into another 737 MAX discussion? Thanks.


:bigthumbsup:
 
estorilm
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:14 pm

Babyshark wrote:
StTim wrote:
As I, a fool I know, understand it - as the A320 is a FBW aeroplane the all fixes are software related and part of the core flight envelope programming.

The MAX however required additional and new flight control software to become initially certifiable. A big difference.


You nailed it on the head. On one shot.

Exactly - and core / fundamental flight protections within the architecture of the entire A32X family would prevent such a crash from happening in the first place regardless. Hell the engine alignment, center of thrust, etc remains ideal on the NEO family due to unrestricted cowl clearance considerations - completely different than the MAX.

One of the primary issues was the single-point failure mode of MCAS, while the Airbus' product has (for 40 years) incorporated triple (or greater) redundancy and the ability to error-detect and revert without any loss of control (and zero control surface movement). These brand-new MAX aircraft were built and certified with zero redundancy.

The two things aren't even remotely on the same planet, and this whole thing stinks of political motivation.
 
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A320neo Family 'Excessive Pitch' Issue Thread

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:53 pm

AirKevin wrote:
planecane wrote:
From what I've read a pilot would have to try really really hard to stall a 777.

Might want to tell Asiana that.
sassiciai wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

I have seen the above around a.net recently, with others finding it funny! I would be very happy if someone could explain this to me - as a European, there must be something American here that I don't get

Around here, you always see in the news "Florida man (insert some crazy action here)." This seems to be a more recent trend. On here, you always see in the news of a 737 sliding off the runway.


Not really recent ... north of FL, in Georgia, we've been looking at our friends to the south for comedic relief for several decades. There is something in the water in FL that makes people just do completely nutso actions/things.

the 737s, well, it's monsoon season. Airplanes of all types slide off runways in those regions this time of year. As there are generally more 737s there than any other type, most of the news reports are (surprise) of 737s sliding off runways.

I believe, today, one landed in a lagoon.
Last edited by SQ22 on Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:25 pm

enzo011 wrote:
That is drawing direct parallels with the 737 instead of focusing on the A321neo.

It's about industry standards for requiring sim training, inspired by the 737 situation, but obviously not a direct parallel.

We can talk about whether or not sim training is needed to deal with "excessive" pitch that could occur under certain conditions and "during specific manoeuvres" without ever talking about MCAS.

In fact I wish we would, and have steered the conversation that way at least three times, but everyone wants to talk about MCAS, sigh.
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:59 pm

Revelation wrote:
In fact I wish we would, and have steered the conversation that way at least three times, but everyone wants to talk about MCAS, sigh.


Revelation wrote:
We should then not be surprised if regulators such as EASA declare that the fixed MCAS is docile enough that sim training is not needed, right?


Well steered......
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:41 pm

zckls04 wrote:
Well steered......

OK then two out of three. Thanks for taking a keen interest.
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:15 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Yes. The funny thing is that the comment I made got deleted by mods, but before then it was picked up by someone who put it in their signature. I'm honored. :rotfl:

alyways, my man Hi5
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

:lol:
 
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:19 pm

Etheereal wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
Why is this on the A321n and not the A320n?

A321 has hairdresser engines, like the A343. So when you add a big ass and powerful engine on it, the consecuence is increase of thrust and AoA.

triple3driver wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

All fine and well until the pilots don't realize they are in direct law like AF 447 and Air Asia 8501. With as many screw ups as that has caused I am flabbergasted why the aviation authorities don't require Airbus to install loud aural warnings and noticeable visual indicators when the flight protections degrade.

Maybe because Airbus does that already? When that occurs, you get an ECAM alert stating that the flight control laws have changed, along with an aural chime. The issue wasn't so much that the pilots didn't realize that they were in Direct Law so much as they weren't adequately trained to operate the aircraft in Direct Law. I'm fully confident that that the 777 and 787, along with every other FBW aircraft have an aural chime with a corresponding message on the ECAM/EICAS

They were not on Direct law but Alternate. Direct has stall protections, Alt doesnt.

The IAE V2500s(the hairdressers) were on every A320CEO model except for the A318, but the PW6000s on those were also hairdryers. And it is the other way around, Alternate Law provides some protections, Direct Law has no protections.
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Etheereal
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:25 pm

triple3driver wrote:
The IAE V2500s(the hairdressers) were on every A320CEO model except for the A318, but the PW6000s on those were also hairdryers. And it is the other way around, Alternate Law provides some protections, Direct Law has no protections.

You're correct about the laws, but neither ALT or Direct law have stall prot, which is the one i was trying to empathize on.

And for the engines .. weird, i remember the 321 having smaller engines than the 320..
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

:lol:
 
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:18 am

I wouldn't know anything about this "excessive pitch anomaly", but one thing I noticed about A321neos is this strange sudden sound the engines make - it's sounds like a whale's mating call or something.

My house is directly below the path of airlines coming in to land at my city's airport, and once I hear that whale-like sound I know that it's an A321neo.

Has anyone else noticed this?
 
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:48 am

Etheereal wrote:
triple3driver wrote:
The IAE V2500s(the hairdressers) were on every A320CEO model except for the A318, but the PW6000s on those were also hairdryers. And it is the other way around, Alternate Law provides some protections, Direct Law has no protections.

You're correct about the laws, but neither ALT or Direct law have stall prot, which is the one i was trying to empathize on.

And for the engines .. weird, i remember the 321 having smaller engines than the 320..

Indeed, in fact the only protection that is available in Alternate Law is Load Factor Maneuvering, which operates similarly in both Alternate Law and Nromal Law. Direct Law has none.
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:13 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
SQ22 wrote:
May I kindly ask you not to turn this thread into another 737 MAX discussion? Thanks.


We could start a thread about Mickey Mouse cartoons and it would inevitably turn into another 737 Max discussion.


I haven’t laughed that hard in a long time. Thanks!
 
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:55 am

litz wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
planecane wrote:
From what I've read a pilot would have to try really really hard to stall a 777.

Might want to tell Asiana that.
sassiciai wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

I have seen the above around a.net recently, with others finding it funny! I would be very happy if someone could explain this to me - as a European, there must be something American here that I don't get

Around here, you always see in the news "Florida man (insert some crazy action here)." This seems to be a more recent trend. On here, you always see in the news of a 737 sliding off the runway.


Not really recent ... north of FL, in Georgia, we've been looking at our friends to the south for comedic relief for several decades. There is something in the water in FL that makes people just do completely nutso actions/things.

the 737s, well, it's monsoon season. Airplanes of all types slide off runways in those regions this time of year. As there are generally more 737s there than any other type, most of the news reports are (surprise) of 737s sliding off runways.

I believe, today, one landed in a lagoon.



You're only about 10 months late for the PX flight into the lagoon and not a lot that can be done when the crew ignore 17 + warnings that they are too low

http://avherald.com/h?article=4be42f25/0000&opt=0
 
kaneporta1
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:03 am

I will avoid venturing into an A vs B discussion and only post the following observation:

There are certainly no "excessive pitch" issues in the British Airways A321Neo fleet:

Image
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BoeingGuy
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:32 am

kaneporta1 wrote:
I will avoid venturing into an A vs B discussion and only post the following observation:

There are certainly no "excessive pitch" issues in the British Airways A321Neo fleet:

Image


Hahaha! Good one.
 
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:21 am

Babyshark wrote:
426Shadow wrote:
I just want to know, where are all the people who were screaming “YOU CANT FIX A BAD DESIGN WITH SOFTWARE!!!!”.


I know where they are.

They're over at the FAA and EASA screaming at Boeing that “YOU CANT FIX A BAD DESIGN WITH SOFTWARE!!!!”

And they're being heard.


Which part of "bad design" needs to be fixed by software on this A321neo?
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:39 am

Leeham: Bjorn’s Corner: Airbus’ A321neo has a pitch-up issue says:

The AD makes clear the issue is connected to a software version of the A321neo Elevator Aileron Computers (ELACs), the Fly-By-Wire computers used for the A320 series control of pitch and roll.
....
It’s this function which has deficiencies in a remote corner of its operational envelope. At certain violent maneuvers, away from normal flying, the inertia of a fast pitching up aircraft can overwhelm the counter commands from the FBW.

This is my interpretation of what’s described in the AD and how pilots and operators are informed about the issue. They are instructed to avoid the condition by applying certain operational restrictions. We have contacted Airbus for confirmation of the above but did not get an answer ahead of this article.

Seems cut and dried to me.

The current A321neo FBW system has a deficiency in a remote corner of the operational envelope.

Longer term the fix is to change the software, but for now, the fix is to change the manual to instruct the pilots to avoid the condition by imposing operational restrictions.

No sim training is being mandated, just a document update.

I'll note again that Leeham really needs to hire a professional editor.

The text makes various comparisons between 737 and A321 (shocking, I know) and it's hard to figure out which one he is talking about at various points in the article.
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Klaus
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:12 am

Etheereal wrote:
And for the engines .. weird, i remember the 321 having smaller engines than the 320..

At least visually by relation to the larger fuselage, but definitely not thrust-wise.
 
Klaus
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:17 am

426Shadow wrote:
I just want to know, where are all the people who were screaming “YOU CANT FIX A BAD DESIGN WITH SOFTWARE!!!!”.

They're trying to find what you might mean by "bad design" on the A321neo and are coming up empty. The A320 family has even more room to grow the engines before things would get iffy.

Don't get me wrong: The 737 was a very good design – in the 1960s with the slender low-bypass engines it was designed for.

That design has just been stretched to the brink of how far it can ever go, and the current investigation is all about which side of the brink the 737MAX is on...!
 
Klaus
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:22 am

JetBuddy wrote:
The problem arises when the computers are flying the plane on your behalf through fly-by-wire, translating and adjusting every input you make into action that fits in the computer's flight envelope. Now the computer is in charge. And God help us if it's not doing what it should do.

Otherwise it's much more primitive mechanics and hydraulics "flying the plane on your behalf" – in the end the primary point is how you can make the plane go where you want and need it to, and it seems a bit peculiar that this specific kind of complaint rarely seems to be coming from people who've actually flown a FBW Airbus in real life.

If that was a real thing, it'd be Airbus pilots complaining about that front and center.
 
Klaus
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:30 am

2175301 wrote:
My read on the situation is that Boeing (and their subcontractors) made a mistake in their Failure Modes and Effects Analysis (FMEA), and that the FAA process was not robust enough to catch it. It was not intentional. It was not because they specifically cut corners or considered cost more important than safety, it was not because of a bad safety culture, it was not because of subcontractors, etc.

So, in short, just "oops"?

That just doesn't rhyme at all with the actual information about that scandal as we know it even now, and the spectacular, worldwide grounding and the duration of that extreme emergency measure speak a very different language.

All evidence combined this looks a lot like the chicken coming home to roost after a massive shift in post-merger corporate priorities on dividends & shareholder value vs. diligence & safety culture.

And it is very far from normal, and not remotely comparable to anything we've seen from Airbus at this time.

It's good to have a balanced outlook in general, but what if the actual reality on the ground is completely off balance itself?

This A321neo issue certainly needs to be addressed as any responsible manufacturer would, but it's not comparable to MCAS in almost any way.
 
StTim
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:25 am

One other issue with this is that a single sensor failure is not going to trip the software into going rogue, leaving it as a pitch sensitivity issue in a remote corner of the ember.
 
Babyshark
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:47 pm

The issue is with a CG aft of 34% in FLARE mode, with flaps full and the pilot pulls hard aft on the stick in a go around there might be an issue.

That said, I've flown the 321s for a couple of years now and I cant remember ever seeing 34% or further aft. 33% at the most. Usually 30-32
 
Klaus
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:32 pm

Babyshark wrote:
The issue is with a CG aft of 34% in FLARE mode, with flaps full and the pilot pulls hard aft on the stick in a go around there might be an issue.

That said, I've flown the 321s for a couple of years now and I cant remember ever seeing 34% or further aft. 33% at the most. Usually 30-32

Thank you; That is very helpful information!

So in effect this would mean:

• It is potentially serious because especially in a go-around situation the envelope protection is particularly important because it is one of the relatively rare standard situations where it can actually kick in. So if I understand it correctly, with far-aft (even if nominally still legal) CG there can be a risk of a stall when the pilot pulls up hard.

• Until the flight software is updated, operations can provisionally exclude the issue by loading the planes with a CG not in excess of this additional limit.

• Given your experiences, this provisional measure would probably not have much of an impact in practice.

Is that about it?
 
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crimsonchin
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:42 pm

You can always guess who the thread-starter will be depending on what kind of Airbus related news it is.

It's good to see Airbus seems to have sufficiently alerted airlines before loss of lives or other potential embarrassments. Hopefully, a fix comes soon.
 
Etheereal
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:29 pm

crimsonchin wrote:
You can always guess who the thread-starter will be depending on what kind of Airbus related news it is.

It's good to see Airbus seems to have sufficiently alerted airlines before loss of lives or other potential embarrassments. Hopefully, a fix comes soon.

And then we can see who takes shooting the messenger over the news as sport.
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

:lol:
 
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Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:02 pm

crimsonchin wrote:
It's good to see Airbus seems to have sufficiently alerted airlines before loss of lives or other potential embarrassments. Hopefully, a fix comes soon.


The whole FBW system is very dynamic and has been evolving ever since my first A320 course almost 30 years ago. It's just program code / algorithms and what was originally designed for efficiency has now evolved to greater uses.

The most obvious to me is altering the code on other aircraft in the A320 series so that they all fly alike. For example, a sidestick movement on the A319 while having the exact same effect on aircraft movement as say an A321, was achieved through very different flight control surface movement. But to a pilot, they all basically feel alike. Same thing with flaps Config One is different from all four in the series ... yet achieves the same result.

Airbus has been very open about anomolies in the FBW system and its effects. There have been multiple OEBs reflecting that. They have been very transparent with drills/checklist to perform if anything is suspect. Also, the ECAM sysem has a very elaborate warning sysem, aural, visual and graphic that clearly alerts the pilots what is happening ... thus triggering the drill/checklist.

Contrast this to the MAX 1960s era warning system / QRH method of hit or miss troubleshooting where often things can be easily missed, (and were). While some Boeing fans on here sat smugly back at this issue likening it to MCAS issues when clearly cockpit design as well as corporate policy between the two airframe manufacturers showed that other than "pitch" being affected ... they are not remotely the same.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
9Patch
Posts: 331
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:38 pm

Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:08 pm

Klaus wrote:
Don't get me wrong: The 737 was a very good design – in the 1960s with the slender low-bypass engines it was designed for.

That design has just been stretched to the brink of how far it can ever go, and the current investigation is all about which side of the brink the 737MAX is on...!


Bjorn Fehrm thinks it's on the brink of of being safe to fly:

The updated MAX software has an improved trigger where both Angle of Attack sensors values are compared (and it deactivates the function if these disagree), it only commands one nose-down trim sequence and it has a global limitation guaranteeing the Pilot can always take the aircraft out of a dive. In my judgment, this makes the 737 MAX safe to fly with MCAS. I’m on the record with this judgment, and I will not hesitate to fly on the updated MAX.

https://leehamnews.com/2019/07/19/bjorn ... -up-issue/
 
N212R
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:18 pm

2175301 wrote:
Many of those issues have been brought to light; yet, every commercial product sold has the same discussions on what is the balance and what is good enough, and how to properly regulate (if at all); and people make mistakes. That's normal. Sometimes people are seriously injured, made sick, or die by such mistakes. It's unfortunate; and, happens a lot in the world for many products. Yet, products tend to get better with time...


This is a tepid argument in defense of programmed mediocrity. It implicitly supports the profiteer's idea that "what the market will bear" is the acceptable standard in the commercial environment. So what if a few eggs get broken in the teething process...

Since no one is perfect...


Is this the new excuse-making normal that will precede all future accident investigations? "Sorry Houston Control about that little O ring issue, no one is perfect". They used to say if you want to do something right, do it right the first time. Now we prepare our excuses beforehand.

This is the overall Regulatory and Aircraft Manufacturers working properly.


Wrong again, if these entities were "working properly" we wouldn't have had the MAX fiasco.

The goal is to identify issues before a crash, and fix them. Identify issues involved in crashes (or events) and fix them. Not to never have any issues. Cost/Benefit analysis, estimates, and management decisions on what is good enough are a fact of life; and are part of every Airbus, Boeing, etc. aircraft. Every product and service you or a company purchase involves those.


Welcome to your world where "what is good enough" is every bean-counters goal. Where the managerial decisions are NOT to never have any issues but to cut enough corners to MAXimize profits as the cost of just doing business.
 
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ikolkyo
Posts: 2647
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:24 pm

A320neo appears to be vulnerable also. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... f216786958
Last edited by ikolkyo on Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
rouelan
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:10 pm

Lufthansa Pulling Last Economy Row On A320neo

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:12 pm

https://simpleflying.com/lufthansa-a320-cog-economy/

I could not find any topic on this forum. Quite serious indeed.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 372
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Lufthansa Pulling Last Economy Row On A320neo

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:17 pm

rouelan wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/lufthansa-a320-cog-economy/

I could not find any topic on this forum. Quite serious indeed.

Change the seating configuration, add more legroom, and call it a “Luxury Upgrade”.
 
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gatibosgru
Posts: 1539
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:48 pm

Re: Lufthansa Pulling Last Economy Row On A320neo

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:19 pm

Good, maybe we can get rid of SpaceFlex now :duck:
@DadCelo
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 211
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Lufthansa Pulling Last Economy Row On A320neo

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:24 pm

Fascinating that a center if gravity problem is being caused by the space flex interior

”Reduced efficiency of the A320neo AOA protection under certain flight conditions, and in combination with specific command maneuvers from the flight crew, could lead to excessive pitch attitudes, possibly increasing cockpit workload conditions.

“This potentially unsafe condition, although never encountered during operations, was discovered during analysis and laboratory testing of the A320neo flight control laws.”


Airbus has contacted airlines flying the A320neo and has updated the aircraft’s flight manual with revisions to the center-of-gravity. The manufacturer has also provided new load recommendations.

According to Aviation Week, senior executives at Lufthansa say the center of gravity issue only relates to A320neos and A321neos that have been fitted out with Space Flex cabins.
 
BAeRJ100
Posts: 398
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:49 am

Re: Lufthansa Pulling Last Economy Row On A320neo

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:24 pm

rouelan wrote:
Quite serious indeed.


Except, not really. Not even close to being in league with something like MCAS. With the issue known, no doubt a fix will be imminent, and as the article notes there's not going to be any danger of the computer overriding any corrective action the pilots may try to take.

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Fascinating that a center if gravity problem is being caused by the space flex interior


It's not rocket science to understand why. It's not the existence of the Space Flex interior itself that is causing the CoG issues. Rather it's the ability to have more rows installed, which equals more passenger and hand baggage weight, which then has the potential to cause a CoG issue if not distributed properly.
Last edited by BAeRJ100 on Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
B737/738/739/744ER/752/753/763/77L/77W/788/789
A223/320/321/332/333/346/359/388
MD82/MD88/717/F100/RJ85/RJ100/146-100/200/300
E175/190/CRJ700/900
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 211
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Lufthansa Pulling Last Economy Row On A320neo

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:26 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
Good, maybe we can get rid of SpaceFlex now :duck:


I thought airlines might reverse the space flex decision (like delta did) since the galley is unworkably small, not because it throws off the center if gravity of the plane
 
Varsity1
Posts: 1935
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Lufthansa Pulling Last Economy Row On A320neo

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:27 pm

The A321neo has similar problems.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..

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