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wexfordflyer
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KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:23 pm

Apologies if this is a duplicate, I did a search but couldn't find anything.

KLM are getting some serious criticism on twitter after telling a passenger she can breastfeed on their flights, but may be asked to cover up so as not to offend other passengers.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... t-cover-up

https://twitter.com/KLM/status/1151049902673321984

https://twitter.com/KLM/status/1151059130779688960

A lot of other airlines (I've seen BA, Easyjet, Singapore and SAS) comment on the thread of tweets to say they are free to breastfeed without restriction on their flights.

I'm very suprised at KLM here. They seem a bit out of touch, and certainly behind other airlines in their thinking on this topic. They even tweeted back to a few tweets saying they ahve a multicultural customer base and some people may be offended. It won't do them much damage I expect, but it's very disappointing for such a modern airline!!
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kavok
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:36 pm

Not a good look for KLM. It’s an even worse look for them to double down on it via their social media account.
 
jrkmsp
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:40 pm

In many places in the US, such a request would be illegal. It's a bad look for KLM and they should quickly change their policy.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:41 pm

The outrage seems kind of unwarranted. They didn't say anything offensive unless you want to take it that way.
Last edited by sonicruiser on Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kjeld0d
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:42 pm

wexfordflyer wrote:
I'm very suprised at KLM here. They seem a bit out of touch, and certainly behind other airlines in their thinking on this topic.


They've got their virtue signals crossed. They want to be seen as progressive AND multicultural. What if some cultures are not progressive?
 
smokeybandit
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:45 pm

jrkmsp wrote:
In many places in the US, such a request would be illegal. It's a bad look for KLM and they should quickly change their policy.


Yet in the US, I've rarely seen a breast feeding mother not covered up.
 
wexfordflyer
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:05 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
The outrage seems kind of unwarranted. They didn't say anything offensive unless you want to take it that way.


It's most certainly disrespectful to suggest that mothers should cover up when breastfeeding.

KLM was all about celebrating International Women's Day a few months back. Maybe they like that for the publicity, but don't like what it actually means.
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jetwet1
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:19 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
In many places in the US, such a request would be illegal. It's a bad look for KLM and they should quickly change their policy.


Yet in the US, I've rarely seen a breast feeding mother not covered up.


That would be because the majority of the American male population react like teenagers when a woman is breastfeeding in public.
 
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yowza
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:25 pm

People need to get ahold of themselves. The ask was to cover up a little during feeding. Completely reasonable.

YOWza
 
kavok
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:37 pm

yowza wrote:
People need to get ahold of themselves. The ask was to cover up a little during feeding. Completely reasonable.

YOWza


Not really.

The mother knows best on how she and her baby would feel most comfortable and eat best during a feed. If covering up would help the baby eat better, great. If not covering up would help the baby eat better, also great. Either way, she doesn’t need the assistance of a flight attendant to make that call. If she did, I am sure there was a call for assistance button above her seat.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:53 pm

yowza wrote:
People need to get ahold of themselves. The ask was to cover up a little during feeding. Completely reasonable.

YOWza

Not reasonable at all, especially on a stuffy airplane. I assume you have never been responsible for the feeding of a baby.
 
Armaghman
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:01 pm

kavok wrote:
yowza wrote:
People need to get ahold of themselves. The ask was to cover up a little during feeding. Completely reasonable.

YOWza


Not really.

The mother knows best on how she and her baby would feel most comfortable and eat best during a feed. If covering up would help the baby eat better, great. If not covering up would help the baby eat better, also great. Either way, she doesn’t need the assistance of a flight attendant to make that call. If she did, I am sure there was a call for assistance button above her seat.



Agree 100%.

We need to remember this is an extremely natural thing. It is through false advertising and general society expectations that women are made to feel it is not natural. They are made to feel they should cover up.

If anyone has issues with it then they need to remove from situation. My wife always tells story of the unlucky gentleman who sat beside her on a flight fromShanghai to London when every time she went to feed he excused himself and went fir walk because of religious believes.

Shame on KLM
 
Jetty
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:10 pm

wexfordflyer wrote:
Apologies if this is a duplicate, I did a search but couldn't find anything.

KLM are getting some serious criticism on twitter after telling a passenger she can breastfeed on their flights, but may be asked to cover up so as not to offend other passengers.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... t-cover-up

https://twitter.com/KLM/status/1151049902673321984

https://twitter.com/KLM/status/1151059130779688960

A lot of other airlines (I've seen BA, Easyjet, Singapore and SAS) comment on the thread of tweets to say they are free to breastfeed without restriction on their flights.

I'm very suprised at KLM here. They seem a bit out of touch, and certainly behind other airlines in their thinking on this topic. They even tweeted back to a few tweets saying they ahve a multicultural customer base and some people may be offended. It won't do them much damage I expect, but it's very disappointing for such a modern airline!!

Very surprised as well. Certainly can't imagine many Dutch passengers being offended. Sadly it's getting more and more common in this country to adapt our societal norms for the supposed better good of multiculturalism, even to the detriment of others as the mother in this case.
 
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OA940
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:22 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
In many places in the US, such a request would be illegal. It's a bad look for KLM and they should quickly change their policy.


Yet in the US, I've rarely seen a breast feeding mother not covered up.


That would be because the majority of the American male population react like teenagers when a woman is breastfeeding in public.


Global actually. Some of us just stopped growing mentally at 15...
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Revelation
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:37 pm

kavok wrote:
yowza wrote:
People need to get ahold of themselves. The ask was to cover up a little during feeding. Completely reasonable.

YOWza

Not really.

The mother knows best on how she and her baby would feel most comfortable and eat best during a feed. If covering up would help the baby eat better, great. If not covering up would help the baby eat better, also great. Either way, she doesn’t need the assistance of a flight attendant to make that call. If she did, I am sure there was a call for assistance button above her seat.

Great post.

The people who haven't grown past 15 should also realize that although it's a natural thing it isn't a perfect thing. Some times things don't flow fast enough for baby's liking, some times babe doesn't take the way mom would like, there may be pain involved, etc. Trying to manage all that in an airline seat while being asked to throw a blanket over it all is a bit much IMO. Just let mom do her thing and if it's upsetting just look the other way and find something else to stew about.
Last edited by Revelation on Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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WayexTDI
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:38 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
In many places in the US, such a request would be illegal. It's a bad look for KLM and they should quickly change their policy.


Yet in the US, I've rarely seen a breast feeding mother not covered up.

Exactly, cause some would call it "indecent exposure".
 
wexfordflyer
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:12 pm

DutchBoeing wrote:
Of course this involves an American woman. She is forcing her views and beliefs on the rest of the world. How uncommon... Respect goes both ways of course, but Americans are generally rather poor in putting themselves in the shoes of other cultures. I'm Dutch and I would also prefer her to be a bit more discreet. It is just common courtesy and good manners. There are certain things in life which require some form of privacy. Typical American hysteria...


The only ones forcing their beliefs are those asking the mother to cover up. It is a 100% natural thing to do for a mother to feed her baby. I fail to see how anyone can be offended by what is a natural biological process of a mother nurturing her baby.
If you are offended by that, then you have to make your accomodations, not the mother. If you have ever seen someone breastfeed a baby, it's actually a relatively discreet process by itself. But people who want to be offended will always find a way.

Revelation wrote:
kavok wrote:
yowza wrote:
People need to get ahold of themselves. The ask was to cover up a little during feeding. Completely reasonable.

YOWza

Not really.

The mother knows best on how she and her baby would feel most comfortable and eat best during a feed. If covering up would help the baby eat better, great. If not covering up would help the baby eat better, also great. Either way, she doesn’t need the assistance of a flight attendant to make that call. If she did, I am sure there was a call for assistance button above her seat.

Great post.

The people who haven't grown past 15 should also realize that although it's a natural thing it isn't a perfect thing. Some times things don't flow fast enough for baby's liking, some times babe doesn't take the way mom would like, there may be pain involved, etc. Trying to manage all that in an airline seat while being asked to throw a blanket over it all is a bit much IMO. Just let mom do her thing and if it's upsetting just look the other way and find something else to stew about.


Excellently said!

A mother flying with a baby of breastfeeding age has got to be stressful enough without without adding to the stresses in this way. While this may be the official KLM policy, I would hope that most of the cabin crew (most dutch people I know are very practical and have common sense) would have the experience and ability to handle real life situations in a much more understanding and respectful manner.

It really does interest me to see other airlines commenting on the thread highlighting their openness.
Last edited by wexfordflyer on Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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144modeller
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:14 pm

Some peopIe don't mind being surrounded by a crowd of alcoholics, others object. Some are quite happy to hear a stream of foul language, others are not. Some prefer not to see a woman baring (what is generally considered to be) her private parts in a public place, others don't mind. I don't think it is a matter of whether a mother should or should not breastfeed in public. It is the far wider subject of whether someone should be allowed to behave in any way they choose without considering the feelings of others. It sounds as though the flight attendant was being polite and paying attention to the needs of all the passengers.
 
wexfordflyer
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:16 pm

144modeller wrote:
Some peopIe don't mind being surrounded by a crowd of alcoholics, others object. Some are quite happy to hear a stream of foul language, others are not. Some prefer not to see a woman baring (what is generally considered to be) her private parts in a public place, others don't mind. I don't think it is a matter of whether a mother should or should not breastfeed in public. It is the far wider subject of whether someone should be allowed to behave in any way they choose without considering the feelings of others. It sounds as though the flight attendant was being polite and paying attention to the needs of all the passengers.


I think comparing a breastfeeding mother to alcoholics or people swearing is a bad comparison and in pretty poor taste. Not all behaviours are by choice, not all behaviours are comparable.

Just because someone is offended by something, does it automatically mean it's wrong?
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WayexTDI
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:23 pm

wexfordflyer wrote:
DutchBoeing wrote:
Of course this involves an American woman. She is forcing her views and beliefs on the rest of the world. How uncommon... Respect goes both ways of course, but Americans are generally rather poor in putting themselves in the shoes of other cultures. I'm Dutch and I would also prefer her to be a bit more discreet. It is just common courtesy and good manners. There are certain things in life which require some form of privacy. Typical American hysteria...


The only ones forcing their beliefs are those asking the mother to cover up. It is a 100% natural thing to do for a mother to feed her baby. I fail to see how anyone can be offended by what is a natural biological process of a mother nurturing her baby.
If you are offended by that, then you have to make your accomodations, not the mother. If you have ever seen someone breastfeed a baby, it's actually a relatively discreet process by itself. But people who want to be offended will always find a way.

I am no problem with a woman breastfeeding, but I can understand how some people might not want to see it.

Let me ask you this: how do you feel about people having sex in public? It's a 100% natural thing for a couple to have sex, it's a natural biological process that can end up with the little bundle of joy that will later feed in public.

Just a reminder: one's freedom stops where someone else's start.

Good luck with your rebuttal...
 
144modeller
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:29 pm

The moment I pressed the 'submit' button, I realised that you might read that as you did, so I'll apologise and clarify. I'm definitely not comparing the good and natural process of breastfeeding to swearing or excessive drinking. I put them together because they are all things that some people find objectionable, while others don't.
By the way, the act of creating a baby is also a good and natural process, but don't do it in public!
 
144modeller
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:49 pm

I was recently in a city-centre food court, when I noticed that a young woman at the next table was breastfeeding her baby. She was neither embarrassed nor brazen -- she simply got on with it. Even though she was not making any special effort to cover up, I doubt whether anyone could see any part of her that they shouldn't, so no one could be offended. It occurred to me that all the adults and children around were feeding, so was the baby. I was happy that life around me was normal.
 
DDR
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:59 pm

Many times aircraft cabins are very warm. Not really fair to the baby to make it eat under a cover, making him/her even warmer. Breast feeding is the most natural thing in the world. And contrary to what some others have said, Americans are mature enough to understand that when a baby needs to nurse, it's ok for them to nurse.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:06 pm

DDR wrote:
Many times aircraft cabins are very warm. Not really fair to the baby to make it eat under a cover, making him/her even warmer. Breast feeding is the most natural thing in the world. And contrary to what some others have said, Americans are mature enough to understand that when a baby needs to nurse, it's ok for them to nurse.

Yet, many scream to indecent exposure when they see it...
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:09 pm

What's wrong with wearing a nursing poncho/cover? My sister does it all the time when breastfeeding my nephews and it's hardly a hassle for her or the baby.

Tell me, what added benefit is there for either the baby or the mother to have an exposed breast while nursing?
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144modeller
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:39 pm

An airline has recently come under fire for stopping passengers from taking photos/videos during flight. There was an outcry, and they were forced to relax the rules. Now, this is a different topic, and not to be discussed here, but just bear it in mind when you remember the event that caused this thread.
 
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Revelation
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:40 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
What's wrong with wearing a nursing poncho/cover? My sister does it all the time when breastfeeding my nephews and it's hardly a hassle for her or the baby.

One more thing to bring along, difficult to manipulate in an aircraft cabin, and quite often makes baby too hot and thus uncomforable and so harder to feed.

What's wrong with just looking the other way?

Just take out your phone or a book and stop gawking.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Tell me, what added benefit is there for either the baby or the mother to have an exposed breast while nursing?

Why is the burden put on to the mother?

Don't mothers have enough burdens to deal with?

You do what you want to do, she does what she wants to do, everyone's happy.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:45 pm

Revelation wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
What's wrong with wearing a nursing poncho/cover? My sister does it all the time when breastfeeding my nephews and it's hardly a hassle for her or the baby.

One more thing to bring along, difficult to manipulate in an aircraft cabin, and quite often makes baby too hot and thus uncomforable and so harder to feed.

What's wrong with just looking the other way?

Just take out your phone or a book and stop gawking.


A nursing poncho/cover is like an apron, hardly difficult to manipulate in a cabin, easily foldable & definitely not restrictive that it'll make the baby uncomfortable.
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Revelation
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:51 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Revelation wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
What's wrong with wearing a nursing poncho/cover? My sister does it all the time when breastfeeding my nephews and it's hardly a hassle for her or the baby.

One more thing to bring along, difficult to manipulate in an aircraft cabin, and quite often makes baby too hot and thus uncomforable and so harder to feed.

What's wrong with just looking the other way?

Just take out your phone or a book and stop gawking.


A nursing poncho/cover is like an apron, hardly difficult to manipulate in a cabin, easily foldable & definitely not restrictive that it'll make the baby uncomfortable.

Neither of us are breastfeeders, right?

I'm getting my info via text from my brother's wife, how about you?

Bottom line: stop putting the burden of your discomfort on to the mother, they've got more than enough to deal with already.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:23 am

Revelation wrote:
Neither of us are breastfeeders, right?

I'm getting my info via text from my brother's wife, how about you?

Bottom line: stop putting the burden of your discomfort on to the mother, they've got more than enough to deal with already.


I've actually tried the poncho myself - though not to breastfeed...

Bottom line: there's no burden. It's only a burden if you make it a burden.
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Revelation
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:26 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Neither of us are breastfeeders, right?

I'm getting my info via text from my brother's wife, how about you?

Bottom line: stop putting the burden of your discomfort on to the mother, they've got more than enough to deal with already.


I've actually tried the poncho myself - though not to breastfeed...

Bottom line: there's no burden. It's only a burden if you make it a burden.

Really? It's paid for itself, it cleans itself, it moves itself around from place to place so it's always there when you need it?

What really is no burden is just not looking.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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aerokiwi
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:32 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Neither of us are breastfeeders, right?

I'm getting my info via text from my brother's wife, how about you?

Bottom line: stop putting the burden of your discomfort on to the mother, they've got more than enough to deal with already.


I've actually tried the poncho myself - though not to breastfeed...

Bottom line: there's no burden. It's only a burden if you make it a burden.


Oh just let mums do what they have to do without forcing your idea of what's acceptable on them. It's a breast feeding a baby. If you're getting all quivery abd shakey at the sight or thought, you've got issues that are well beyond this forum. Odd of KLM.
 
IADCA
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:58 am

WayexTDI wrote:
wexfordflyer wrote:
DutchBoeing wrote:
Of course this involves an American woman. She is forcing her views and beliefs on the rest of the world. How uncommon... Respect goes both ways of course, but Americans are generally rather poor in putting themselves in the shoes of other cultures. I'm Dutch and I would also prefer her to be a bit more discreet. It is just common courtesy and good manners. There are certain things in life which require some form of privacy. Typical American hysteria...


The only ones forcing their beliefs are those asking the mother to cover up. It is a 100% natural thing to do for a mother to feed her baby. I fail to see how anyone can be offended by what is a natural biological process of a mother nurturing her baby.
If you are offended by that, then you have to make your accomodations, not the mother. If you have ever seen someone breastfeed a baby, it's actually a relatively discreet process by itself. But people who want to be offended will always find a way.

I am no problem with a woman breastfeeding, but I can understand how some people might not want to see it.

Let me ask you this: how do you feel about people having sex in public? It's a 100% natural thing for a couple to have sex, it's a natural biological process that can end up with the little bundle of joy that will later feed in public.

Just a reminder: one's freedom stops where someone else's start.

Good luck with your rebuttal...


What is the result of a couple waiting to have sex until they get home? What is the result of not feeding a hungry baby?

Besides, the corollary of what you're saying - that a woman should just cover up when breastfeeding - is that the couple should have all the sex they want as long as they do it under a blanket. Is that what you really want to argue?
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:05 am

aerokiwi wrote:
Oh just let mums do what they have to do without forcing your idea of what's acceptable on them. It's a breast feeding a baby. If you're getting all quivery abd shakey at the sight or thought, you've got issues that are well beyond this forum. Odd of KLM.


If there are mums who are able to cover themselves up & still breastfeed satisfactorily, then why should the others not try to do the same too?

Just pointing out that there's plenty of options that does allow breastfeeding modestly.
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Jetty
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:48 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
If there are mums who are able to cover themselves up & still breastfeed satisfactorily, then why should the others not try to do the same too?

Just pointing out that there's plenty of options that does allow breastfeeding modestly.

If there are mothers that don't breastfeed at all, then why allow breastfeeding? :idea:
 
kavok
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:50 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:
Oh just let mums do what they have to do without forcing your idea of what's acceptable on them. It's a breast feeding a baby. If you're getting all quivery abd shakey at the sight or thought, you've got issues that are well beyond this forum. Odd of KLM.


If there are mums who are able to cover themselves up & still breastfeed satisfactorily, then why should the others not try to do the same too?

Just pointing out that there's plenty of options that does allow breastfeeding modestly.



If there are pax who are able to walk themselves to their seats and still get there satisfactorily, then why should those in wheelchairs not try to do the same too?

Just pointing out that there are some options that work for some mothers (and more specifically their babies) that do not work for others. Not everyone can get to their seat without assistance, and not every baby can feed fine under cover. Just because it works for some does not mean it works for all.
 
TheOldDude
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:51 am

Reading this thread reinforces that many A-netters must rate very "J" on the Myers Briggs scale whenever societal matters are at issue.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:57 am

Jetty wrote:
If there are mothers that don't breastfeed at all, then why allow breastfeeding? :idea:


kavok wrote:
If there are pax who are able to walk themselves to their seats and still get there satisfactorily, then why should those in wheelchairs not try to do the same too?


The analogy is simply wrong in both instances.
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IADCA
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:11 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Jetty wrote:
If there are mothers that don't breastfeed at all, then why allow breastfeeding? :idea:


kavok wrote:
If there are pax who are able to walk themselves to their seats and still get there satisfactorily, then why should those in wheelchairs not try to do the same too?


The analogy is simply wrong in both instances.


Your proposal:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

If there are mums who are able to cover themselves up & still breastfeed satisfactorily, then why should the others not try to do the same too?

Just pointing out that there's plenty of options that does allow breastfeeding modestly.


isn't exactly shining in its brilliance, either. Kids are different from one another. One of mine simply will not nurse when covered up, and it's not due to lack of trying on our part.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:31 am

IADCA wrote:
Your proposal:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

If there are mums who are able to cover themselves up & still breastfeed satisfactorily, then why should the others not try to do the same too?

Just pointing out that there's plenty of options that does allow breastfeeding modestly.


isn't exactly shining in its brilliance, either. Kids are different from one another. One of mine simply will not nurse when covered up, and it's not due to lack of trying on our part.


Finally, somebody offering a valid reason!

Be that as it may, there's nothing wrong with KLM saying this

Breastfeeding is permitted at KLM flights. However, to ensure that all our passengers of all backgrounds feel comfortable on board, we may request a mother to cover herself while breastfeeding, should other passengers be offended by this.


As stated there are options, and if the person's baby can be fed while covered, I don't see why they need to be offended if they're asked to cover themselves!

The outrage here is much overblown to be honest.
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wexfordflyer
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:53 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
IADCA wrote:
Your proposal:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

If there are mums who are able to cover themselves up & still breastfeed satisfactorily, then why should the others not try to do the same too?

Just pointing out that there's plenty of options that does allow breastfeeding modestly.


isn't exactly shining in its brilliance, either. Kids are different from one another. One of mine simply will not nurse when covered up, and it's not due to lack of trying on our part.


Finally, somebody offering a valid reason!

Be that as it may, there's nothing wrong with KLM saying this

Breastfeeding is permitted at KLM flights. However, to ensure that all our passengers of all backgrounds feel comfortable on board, we may request a mother to cover herself while breastfeeding, should other passengers be offended by this.


As stated there are options, and if the person's baby can be fed while covered, I don't see why they need to be offended if they're asked to cover themselves!

The outrage here is much overblown to be honest.


Most people I see breastfeeding have their babies covered, they are clothed. Not with a nonsense blanket or anything, just normal baby clothes. People don't even understand this at all. The suggestion is that the woman cover her breast with a blanket. Which would also cover the baby's face/head. Would you like having to eat with a blanket over your head?
Sure it's possible for some people to cover up, but different for every mother and baby as to how easy/difficult it is. It's not always possible.

WayexTDI wrote:
wexfordflyer wrote:
DutchBoeing wrote:
Of course this involves an American woman. She is forcing her views and beliefs on the rest of the world. How uncommon... Respect goes both ways of course, but Americans are generally rather poor in putting themselves in the shoes of other cultures. I'm Dutch and I would also prefer her to be a bit more discreet. It is just common courtesy and good manners. There are certain things in life which require some form of privacy. Typical American hysteria...


The only ones forcing their beliefs are those asking the mother to cover up. It is a 100% natural thing to do for a mother to feed her baby. I fail to see how anyone can be offended by what is a natural biological process of a mother nurturing her baby.
If you are offended by that, then you have to make your accomodations, not the mother. If you have ever seen someone breastfeed a baby, it's actually a relatively discreet process by itself. But people who want to be offended will always find a way.

I am no problem with a woman breastfeeding, but I can understand how some people might not want to see it.

Let me ask you this: how do you feel about people having sex in public? It's a 100% natural thing for a couple to have sex, it's a natural biological process that can end up with the little bundle of joy that will later feed in public.

Just a reminder: one's freedom stops where someone else's start.

Good luck with your rebuttal...


This is possibly one of the most ridiculous answers on here. Do two people have to have sex at a given time? Does a baby have to eat at a specific time? You are simply not comparing like with like. There's a lot more complexity to sexual intercourse, including education of children and such.

That's all that's warranted on that rebuttal.

I'm actually quite shocked at the ignorance being shown by many on here.

"One size fits all rules. I don't like it so they shouldn't do it. What's difficult about covering up."
A serious lack of understanding of the differences between babies and how easy/difficult breastfeeding can be. And even worse, a lack of care to even try to understand.

It's very, very disappointing.
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bennett123
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:08 am

Given the pitch of most Economy seats ignoring what is happening next to you is easier said than done.

As for those saying take a walk, this is OK when the seat belt signs are off.

Also KLM are not saying that it is a problem for them. Simply that it is causing concern for some passengers. Surely they have rights as well.
 
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keesje
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:09 am

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
B777LRF
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:11 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Just pointing out that there's plenty of options that does allow breastfeeding modestly.


The purpose of female breasts are, contrary to popular belief, not to provide pleasing visuals for males. They are baby feeding apparatus, nothing more or less. That you've chosen to sexualise them is totally on you, certainly not on the mother or baby. If you find a breast feeding a baby in public immodest, suggest you either avert your gaze or reconsider your priorities.

Let the mothers feed their sprogs whenever and wherever they need to, without any societal pressure to 'cover up'.

PS
My attitude has been entirely formed by living in a nation where being topless is (or, rather, was) the norm. I've seen more naked breasts than I can recall, and don't find a women topless any more or less normal than a male doing the same. If you want women to cover their breasts that's on you, so long as you're consistent and insist males to the same. Just don't try and push your ideas of modesty and morality on the rest of us.
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B777LRF
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:18 am

bennett123 wrote:
Surely they have rights as well.


Yes, they have the right to know that there may be mothers with young babies onboard a flight, and that said babies may need to have some food whilst enroute. This may include the mother nursing the child from her breast, and that a portion of said breasts may be visible.

Deal with it or sod off. There, those are your rights.
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:22 am

wexfordflyer wrote:
Most people I see breastfeeding have their babies covered, they are clothed. Not with a nonsense blanket or anything, just normal baby clothes. People don't even understand this at all. The suggestion is that the woman cover her breast with a blanket. Which would also cover the baby's face/head. Would you like having to eat with a blanket over your head?
Sure it's possible for some people to cover up, but different for every mother and baby as to how easy/difficult it is. It's not always possible.


Have you ever seen/used a nursing poncho?

B777LRF wrote:
My attitude has been entirely formed by living in a nation where being topless is (or, rather, was) the norm. I've seen more naked breasts than I can recall, and don't find a women topless any more or less normal than a male doing the same. If you want women to cover their breasts that's on you, so long as you're consistent and insist males to the same. Just don't try and push your ideas of modesty and morality on the rest of us.


Well why are you pushing your ideas of modesty & morality on other people? See how this is going nowhere?
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SKAirbus
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:51 am

As a European airline they should be promoting European values, and NOT the values of certain countries / cultures who have a complete disregard for human rights and equality - especially gender equality.

One distinct European value is that all cultures and backgrounds are welcome as long as they adhere to certain common rules relating to equality and human rights. For example, no one should be discriminated against because of their gender identity, sexuality and ethnicity. In addition, asking a mother to cover up contributes to an over-sexualisation of women - breastfeeding is one of the most natural things in the world and shouldn't make anyone feel uncomfortable, but it does because breasts are primarily seen (by let's face it men) as something sexual. Conversely, go to any British pub garden in the summer and you'll see plenty topless men having a beer - no one is offended by that are they?

The Netherlands is widely known as an open and liberal country, and KLM has succeeded in damaging that reputation with this ridiculous rule. I'm glad other airlines "trolled" KLM and hopefully they'll change their rules now.

At the end of the day, if seeing a mother breastfeeding her child offends you then a) that's your problem and you should move, and b) don't look.
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B777LRF
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:02 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Well why are you pushing your ideas of modesty & morality on other people? See how this is going nowhere?


Excuse me, but that's an absurd point of view to adopt. I'm not advocating or pushing anything that isn't a 100% perfectly normal activity. You, on the other hand, seem to have moral issues and wish to curtail that activity. If your morality or modesty prevents you from feeling comfortable around a woman breastfeeding her baby, suggest you remove yourself from such an environment or simply avert your gaze. Just because a mom is breastfeeding doesn't mean you have to look at it, if it makes you uncomfortable. And you've certainly no rights attempting to make live harder for mothers just because it clashes with your ideas of modesty or morality.
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AirwayBill
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:15 am

This really is the kind of subject that awakens dinosaurs, especially in the era of the internet.

You and me ain't nothing but mammals (you know the song), so let's stop acting all precious, the world isn't an all clean, pure, sterile place where everything happens by magic.

People getting outraged at breastfeeding must be very sad individuals.
 
wexfordflyer
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:24 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
wexfordflyer wrote:
Most people I see breastfeeding have their babies covered, they are clothed. Not with a nonsense blanket or anything, just normal baby clothes. People don't even understand this at all. The suggestion is that the woman cover her breast with a blanket. Which would also cover the baby's face/head. Would you like having to eat with a blanket over your head?
Sure it's possible for some people to cover up, but different for every mother and baby as to how easy/difficult it is. It's not always possible.


Have you ever seen/used a nursing poncho?

B777LRF wrote:
My attitude has been entirely formed by living in a nation where being topless is (or, rather, was) the norm. I've seen more naked breasts than I can recall, and don't find a women topless any more or less normal than a male doing the same. If you want women to cover their breasts that's on you, so long as you're consistent and insist males to the same. Just don't try and push your ideas of modesty and morality on the rest of us.


Well why are you pushing your ideas of modesty & morality on other people? See how this is going nowhere?


Seen them. Never used them (I'm a male). They work for some, not for others. Still stands that what works for one person doesn't work for everyone. So what's your point?
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