AirwayBill
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:37 am

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:43 am

Jetty wrote:
If there are mothers that don't breastfeed at all, then why allow breastfeeding? :idea:


This is the exact same kind of failed argument as "why do we still allow women to buy unecological tampons and panty liners, if they can just use a much more eco friendly reusable menstrual cup?", which curiously is a suggestion mostly made by male counterparts who've never had periods in their life. It is very a short-sighted perspective and doesn't take into account the fact that all humans are different.

Same for breastfeeding. The mother's choice of feeding her offspring is, you know, probably the best choice. I wouldn't mess with that.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2376
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:53 am

OMG, this thread is quite something.

Bottom line *for me* is that I do not see the problem with anything that deals with the human body, and the nourishing/survival of said human body.
I totally fail to see how seeing a part of a fellow human being should make someone uncomfortable, least offend them, when we are all human beings, with an equally functioning body, that performs the same bodily functions - I mean, we are all born equal, we all come from the same place, and were all breastfed at one point; so what is the big deal?
Why are people so uptight about body parts and nudity?. . What's wrong with being human?
I think the perfection of the human body is the ultimate most beautiful thing in life, so I cannot see how said work of perfection could in the very least make someone uncomfortable.... feeding a newborn human life.. I mean' what's more beautiful and peaceful to look at than that?
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2376
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:55 am

AirwayBill wrote:
Jetty wrote:
If there are mothers that don't breastfeed at all, then why allow breastfeeding? :idea:



Same for breastfeeding. The mother's choice of feeding her offspring is, you know, probably the best choice. I wouldn't mess with that.


IT IS. Period. There's no substitute for breastfeeding. As endorsed by the WHO.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 1842
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:59 am

B777LRF wrote:
Excuse me, but that's an absurd point of view to adopt. I'm not advocating or pushing anything that isn't a 100% perfectly normal activity. You, on the other hand, seem to have moral issues and wish to curtail that activity. If your morality or modesty prevents you from feeling comfortable around a woman breastfeeding her baby, suggest you remove yourself from such an environment or simply avert your gaze. Just because a mom is breastfeeding doesn't mean you have to look at it, if it makes you uncomfortable. And you've certainly no rights attempting to make live harder for mothers just because it clashes with your ideas of modesty or morality.


Not all cultures are as open as yours. So it's rather arrogant for you to demand others to accede to your beliefs now isn't it.

wexfordflyer wrote:
Seen them. Never used them (I'm a male). They work for some, not for others. Still stands that what works for one person doesn't work for everyone. So what's your point?


Point is, there are options so don't knock it until it's tried.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
flipdewaf
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:34 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Excuse me, but that's an absurd point of view to adopt. I'm not advocating or pushing anything that isn't a 100% perfectly normal activity. You, on the other hand, seem to have moral issues and wish to curtail that activity. If your morality or modesty prevents you from feeling comfortable around a woman breastfeeding her baby, suggest you remove yourself from such an environment or simply avert your gaze. Just because a mom is breastfeeding doesn't mean you have to look at it, if it makes you uncomfortable. And you've certainly no rights attempting to make live harder for mothers just because it clashes with your ideas of modesty or morality.


Not all cultures are as open as yours. So it's rather arrogant for you to demand others to accede to your beliefs now isn't it.

wexfordflyer wrote:
Seen them. Never used them (I'm a male). They work for some, not for others. Still stands that what works for one person doesn't work for everyone. So what's your point?


Point is, there are options so don't knock it until it's tried.


I don't like watching males eat apples, is it reasonable to suggest that they cover their heads if they want to eat an apple whilst on the same plane as me? you see apples, for me, make me quite horny and so i think other people should be made to take account of this, if you don't want me to to gawk at you and dribble whilst rubbing my crotch then that's your problem.

Fred
Image
 
wexfordflyer
Topic Author
Posts: 183
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:54 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Excuse me, but that's an absurd point of view to adopt. I'm not advocating or pushing anything that isn't a 100% perfectly normal activity. You, on the other hand, seem to have moral issues and wish to curtail that activity. If your morality or modesty prevents you from feeling comfortable around a woman breastfeeding her baby, suggest you remove yourself from such an environment or simply avert your gaze. Just because a mom is breastfeeding doesn't mean you have to look at it, if it makes you uncomfortable. And you've certainly no rights attempting to make live harder for mothers just because it clashes with your ideas of modesty or morality.


Not all cultures are as open as yours. So it's rather arrogant for you to demand others to accede to your beliefs now isn't it.

wexfordflyer wrote:
Seen them. Never used them (I'm a male). They work for some, not for others. Still stands that what works for one person doesn't work for everyone. So what's your point?


Point is, there are options so don't knock it until it's tried.


Ok, I see. You didn't really have a point. There was no knocking. On the contrary, very clear acceptance of it. But also clear acceptance that what works for one, doesn't work for all. This is the piece you seem to be struggling with.


The point on cultures is interesting. KLM is a Dutch Airline. The Dutch culture is (based on my experience) quite open and in general would be accepting of easy breastfeeding. Why should they change that culture as an airline because some of their customers are from a less open culture? In particular, why should they inconvenience female passengers who in Amsterdam can breastfeed openly, but because they are on a flight with different cultures they should have to change this? Why are they the ones who should be inconvenienced? Should the person who is more closed not have to make the accomodation?

KLM have made a big statement with their recent ad campaign encouraging people to fly less when they can. Companies and brands can have their own values and stances on things. It's brave and it's not always an easy option. But sometimes it's important to stand for something that you believe in. Seems to me like this is something KLM should have been a bit braver about, rather than trying to please everyone.

OR, maybe someone in their social media department was having a bad day at the office!!!!
Come with me, there's a place I want you to see, where the leaves are dark, I've got a hiding place in central park.
 
buzzard302
Posts: 156
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:10 pm

In public, my wife breast feeds our son with a light cover. Folds up easily and stays in the diaper bag when not in use. We have been on 4 flights in the past month. She was in the window seat. I was in the center seat. Most people on the plane didn't even know there was a baby there. I agree though, people need to grow up a bit. Breast feeding is natural and can be done with little to no exposure. There are shirts made for women that allow them access for the baby and barely expose anything at all. It's really not a big deal, even less so after you have become a parent yourself and see what it takes.
 
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Revelation
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:39 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:
Oh just let mums do what they have to do without forcing your idea of what's acceptable on them. It's a breast feeding a baby. If you're getting all quivery abd shakey at the sight or thought, you've got issues that are well beyond this forum. Odd of KLM.


If there are mums who are able to cover themselves up & still breastfeed satisfactorily, then why should the others not try to do the same too?

Just pointing out that there's plenty of options that does allow breastfeeding modestly.

Since we're all slinging analogies, the seats in the back of the bus are the same as the ones in the front, and some people are offended by people of other races, so let's all make nice and avoid upsetting people with racist beliefs.

Or maybe let's decide it's time for people to get over their racist beliefs, just like it's time for people to get over being offended by a mother breastfeeding a child.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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yowza
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:39 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
yowza wrote:
People need to get ahold of themselves. The ask was to cover up a little during feeding. Completely reasonable.

YOWza

Not reasonable at all, especially on a stuffy airplane. I assume you have never been responsible for the feeding of a baby.

You would assume incorrectly. How stuffy was it on the plane?
 
Planetalk
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:42 pm

yowza wrote:
People need to get ahold of themselves. The ask was to cover up a little during feeding. Completely reasonable.

YOWza


Why is it reasonable? Why should women cover up their breasts when feeding, because some people have been brought up to be scared of the female body? It's feeding a baby, I don't have ay children but can see it's a harmless, necessary, and in some ways wonderful, natural thing. Bizarre how some people react to it.
 
Planetalk
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:56 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
IADCA wrote:
Your proposal:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

If there are mums who are able to cover themselves up & still breastfeed satisfactorily, then why should the others not try to do the same too?

Just pointing out that there's plenty of options that does allow breastfeeding modestly.


isn't exactly shining in its brilliance, either. Kids are different from one another. One of mine simply will not nurse when covered up, and it's not due to lack of trying on our part.


Finally, somebody offering a valid reason!

Be that as it may, there's nothing wrong with KLM saying this

Breastfeeding is permitted at KLM flights. However, to ensure that all our passengers of all backgrounds feel comfortable on board, we may request a mother to cover herself while breastfeeding, should other passengers be offended by this.


As stated there are options, and if the person's baby can be fed while covered, I don't see why they need to be offended if they're asked to cover themselves!

The outrage here is much overblown to be honest.


Well you could say it is the other side that is being overblown, why should this offend anyone? I don't know what sex you are, but saying 'I don't see why they need to be offended if they're asked to cover up' suggests a lack of awareness of the experience of being a woman. I'm a man but I can see how society is constantly demanding women appear in a certain way, how they are constantly judged for their appearance in ways men are not, and it's probably the last straw when society, that obsesses over printing revealing photos of women all over the internet and in print media, then tells you you need to cover up just to feed your baby, because your body is offensive. I don't get it, but I wasn't brought up in a prudish culture and don't really understand grown adults reacting like this to a baby being fed.

Sometimes society has to choose between two peoples liberties if they are incompatible. So whose liberty is more reasonable, that of a woman to feed her baby without harassment, or that of someone to ask her to cover up?
 
Junction
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:23 pm

I guess I don't really have an opinion one way or the other, but there is no doubt public breast feeding has had a major uptick in the last 10 years or so. It is that parents with infants still young enough to require breast feeding are out traveling with baby more than in the past? Just wondering.
 
goosebayguy
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:58 pm

KLM are just in the middle of a huge and very cheap marketing campaign.

Recall their asking people to stop flying last week? Now this and no doubt more soon. No cost to the airline.
 
IADCA
Posts: 1864
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:24 pm

goosebayguy wrote:
KLM are just in the middle of a huge and very cheap marketing campaign.

Recall their asking people to stop flying last week? Now this and no doubt more soon. No cost to the airline.


I'm not sure that actions like this - which tend to drive existing customers to their competitors - are exactly the epitome of marketing. I understand that getting people to buy is all about getting their attention first, but this one isn't necessarily cost-free to the airline.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:26 pm

IADCA wrote:
goosebayguy wrote:
KLM are just in the middle of a huge and very cheap marketing campaign.

Recall their asking people to stop flying last week? Now this and no doubt more soon. No cost to the airline.


I'm not sure that actions like this - which tend to drive existing customers to their competitors - are exactly the epitome of marketing. I understand that getting people to buy is all about getting their attention first, but this one isn't necessarily cost-free to the airline.

Exactly. There is such a thing as bad publicity, at least for "conventional" existing businesses.
 
goosebayguy
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:16 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
IADCA wrote:
goosebayguy wrote:
KLM are just in the middle of a huge and very cheap marketing campaign.

Recall their asking people to stop flying last week? Now this and no doubt more soon. No cost to the airline.


I'm not sure that actions like this - which tend to drive existing customers to their competitors - are exactly the epitome of marketing. I understand that getting people to buy is all about getting their attention first, but this one isn't necessarily cost-free to the airline.

Exactly. There is such a thing as bad publicity, at least for "conventional" existing businesses.



Just to back up my perspective here. KLM have just announced where on a plane you are most likely to die in a plane crash.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... y-DIE.html
 
afgeneral
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:19 pm

Why is it so hard for people to understand that whenever a fluid or semi-fluid exits the human body it provokes natural disgust to other people? Sometimes you have to do it but it is considerate to minimize other people's exposure to the event.

Not ok:
- Picking nose (cover up or do it in the lav)
- Blowing nose (cover up or do it in the lav)
- Sweating excessively (wipe sweat from forehead)
- Defecating (lav only)
- Urinating (lav only)
- Farting (lav preferably)
- Bleeding (stop it / cover it)
- Sex or french kissing (not in a plane)

EVERYTHING coming out of the human body is nasty to a stranger. Why should breastfeeding be any different? You can do it if you have to, just be considerate and cover up. It is not a celebration of life or expression of the beauty of the human body. It's just nasty.
 
2175301
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:19 pm

I cannot speak for all countries in the world. But, I do not recall in my study of Western European Countries anywhere where people are guaranteed a right not to be offended. There is no such right in the USA either. Instead, I thought they all encouraged tolerance for others of different beliefs and values.

Perhaps someone could tell me which countries guarantee that you have the right to not be offended.

Have a great day,
 
afgeneral
Posts: 93
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:31 pm

2175301 wrote:
I cannot speak for all countries in the world. But, I do not recall in my study of Western European Countries anywhere where people are guaranteed a right not to be offended. There is no such right in the USA either. Instead, I thought they all encouraged tolerance for others of different beliefs and values.

Perhaps someone could tell me which countries guarantee that you have the right to not be offended.

Have a great day,


Well the right to be offended is an implied logic in many laws and regulations in the Western world. Depending on how you do it and the subjective perception of what you say or do, or moral standards enshrined in the law, offending someone can even be a criminal offence (no I am not saying public breastfeeding should be a criminal offence). Maybe not a fundamental value, but still taken into account in many instances.

Meanwhile, the right to complain about being offended IS a universal Western value. It is a subset of free speech.
 
wexfordflyer
Topic Author
Posts: 183
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Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:57 pm

afgeneral wrote:
Why is it so hard for people to understand that whenever a fluid or semi-fluid exits the human body it provokes natural disgust to other people? Sometimes you have to do it but it is considerate to minimize other people's exposure to the event.

Not ok:
- Picking nose (cover up or do it in the lav)
- Blowing nose (cover up or do it in the lav)
- Sweating excessively (wipe sweat from forehead)
- Defecating (lav only)
- Urinating (lav only)
- Farting (lav preferably)
- Bleeding (stop it / cover it)
- Sex or french kissing (not in a plane)

EVERYTHING coming out of the human body is nasty to a stranger. Why should breastfeeding be any different? You can do it if you have to, just be considerate and cover up. It is not a celebration of life or expression of the beauty of the human body. It's just nasty.


Just go home and take your backward views with you.
Come with me, there's a place I want you to see, where the leaves are dark, I've got a hiding place in central park.
 
speedbird52
Posts: 768
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:01 pm

I don't want to see someones tits hanging out on a plane. I genuinely think that within 25 years it will be considered socially acceptable to have sex in public and anyone saying otherwise will be labeled a backwards bigot
 
speedbird52
Posts: 768
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:02 pm

wexfordflyer wrote:
afgeneral wrote:
Why is it so hard for people to understand that whenever a fluid or semi-fluid exits the human body it provokes natural disgust to other people? Sometimes you have to do it but it is considerate to minimize other people's exposure to the event.

Not ok:
- Picking nose (cover up or do it in the lav)
- Blowing nose (cover up or do it in the lav)
- Sweating excessively (wipe sweat from forehead)
- Defecating (lav only)
- Urinating (lav only)
- Farting (lav preferably)
- Bleeding (stop it / cover it)
- Sex or french kissing (not in a plane)

EVERYTHING coming out of the human body is nasty to a stranger. Why should breastfeeding be any different? You can do it if you have to, just be considerate and cover up. It is not a celebration of life or expression of the beauty of the human body. It's just nasty.


Just go home and take your backward views with you.

Something tells me that you will be telling me this when I say I don't want my kids watching someone get their dick sucked in public
 
speedbird52
Posts: 768
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:07 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
OMG, this thread is quite something.

Bottom line *for me* is that I do not see the problem with anything that deals with the human body, and the nourishing/survival of said human body.
I totally fail to see how seeing a part of a fellow human being should make someone uncomfortable, least offend them, when we are all human beings, with an equally functioning body, that performs the same bodily functions - I mean, we are all born equal, we all come from the same place, and were all breastfed at one point; so what is the big deal?
Why are people so uptight about body parts and nudity?. . What's wrong with being human?
I think the perfection of the human body is the ultimate most beautiful thing in life, so I cannot see how said work of perfection could in the very least make someone uncomfortable.... feeding a newborn human life.. I mean' what's more beautiful and peaceful to look at than that?

So I should be allowed to urinate into a cup on a plane at my seat?
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1216
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:16 pm

wexfordflyer wrote:
afgeneral wrote:
Why is it so hard for people to understand that whenever a fluid or semi-fluid exits the human body it provokes natural disgust to other people? Sometimes you have to do it but it is considerate to minimize other people's exposure to the event.

Not ok:
- Picking nose (cover up or do it in the lav)
- Blowing nose (cover up or do it in the lav)
- Sweating excessively (wipe sweat from forehead)
- Defecating (lav only)
- Urinating (lav only)
- Farting (lav preferably)
- Bleeding (stop it / cover it)
- Sex or french kissing (not in a plane)

EVERYTHING coming out of the human body is nasty to a stranger. Why should breastfeeding be any different? You can do it if you have to, just be considerate and cover up. It is not a celebration of life or expression of the beauty of the human body. It's just nasty.


Just go home and take your backward views with you.

You know, you're as intolerant as the ones you're trying to discredit. Accept that not everyone has the same point of view; that's called "living in society"...
 
terefere
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:45 am

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:41 pm

Wow... you're all trying to argue for your point of view as if this was a rational decision to view breast feeding in public in way way or another. No, people will have a certain view on this and there is not an objective 'right' or 'wrong', no matter how hard you will try to argue otherwise.
I personally do not have an issue with a woman breast feeding in public but I can understand that some other people have a different sense of morality and may view this differently. This is called empathy. Some things are objective here - like the fact that a baby needs to be fed. It's also objective that the mother cannot simply go somewhere else on a plane so as to not be in public view. But there is also no objective view for half of the plane to see the exposed breast. So what do we do? Well, we chose to compromise - feed in public, but try to do it in a way that minimizes the exposure to others. Is this really not reasonable? And sure, in other aspects such compromises are not as easy. There is no right or wrong, really, and that's why so many have such divergent views on this (and other) matters. But I think if we start trying to put ourselves in the shoes of others, we can get really far.
 
Karlsands
Posts: 142
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:53 pm

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:43 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
OMG, this thread is quite something.

Bottom line *for me* is that I do not see the problem with anything that deals with the human body, and the nourishing/survival of said human body.
I totally fail to see how seeing a part of a fellow human being should make someone uncomfortable, least offend them, when we are all human beings, with an equally functioning body, that performs the same bodily functions - I mean, we are all born equal, we all come from the same place, and were all breastfed at one point; so what is the big deal?
Why are people so uptight about body parts and nudity?. . What's wrong with being human?
I think the perfection of the human body is the ultimate most beautiful thing in life, so I cannot see how said work of perfection could in the very least make someone uncomfortable.... feeding a newborn human life.. I mean' what's more beautiful and peaceful to look at than that?

So I should be allowed to urinate into a cup on a plane at my seat?

Might as well with all this PC bs these days
 
User avatar
smithbs
Posts: 313
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 6:09 pm

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:18 pm

This is an amazing thread. I didn't know passions about breastfeeding ran so hot.

I'm in the camp that KLM was in the right. It's ok to be asked to provide a little modesty, because in an airplane we are all jammed together and need to play nice. Societal norms are increased in such conditions, because nobody can remove themselves from an offensive situation and we are all forced to be elbow-to-elbow for a number of hours. I make sacrifices so people can find me to be an agreeable travel companion, my wife did when she was nursing our kids, and I have no problem with saying that EVERYONE can stand to be a bit modest and understanding so we can all have a nice flight together.

For those who are of the camp that says "I'll do what I want and you deal with your own offense," sure, you can claim that while on a public street corner and usually get away with it. But that doesn't work in a small aluminum tube.
 
indcwby
Posts: 317
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:32 pm

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:53 pm

Every culture is different about this. Let's just say that you'll never see this happen on Saudia.
A319, A320, A330, A340, B717, B727, B737, B747, B757, B767, B777, CRJ7, DC10, MD88, MD11, E145, E175
"Always remember that you fly an airplane with your head, not your hands."
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2376
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:27 am

speedbird52 wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
OMG, this thread is quite something.

Bottom line *for me* is that I do not see the problem with anything that deals with the human body, and the nourishing/survival of said human body.
I totally fail to see how seeing a part of a fellow human being should make someone uncomfortable, least offend them, when we are all human beings, with an equally functioning body, that performs the same bodily functions - I mean, we are all born equal, we all come from the same place, and were all breastfed at one point; so what is the big deal?
Why are people so uptight about body parts and nudity?. . What's wrong with being human?
I think the perfection of the human body is the ultimate most beautiful thing in life, so I cannot see how said work of perfection could in the very least make someone uncomfortable.... feeding a newborn human life.. I mean' what's more beautiful and peaceful to look at than that?

So I should be allowed to urinate into a cup on a plane at my seat?


Let me answer you by asking you whether you think that feeding a baby is just like whipping your dick out of your pants and start pissing in a cup. I mean man, come on. Let's be rational here.
 
wexfordflyer
Topic Author
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:48 pm

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:37 am

WayexTDI wrote:
wexfordflyer wrote:
afgeneral wrote:
Why is it so hard for people to understand that whenever a fluid or semi-fluid exits the human body it provokes natural disgust to other people? Sometimes you have to do it but it is considerate to minimize other people's exposure to the event.

Not ok:
- Picking nose (cover up or do it in the lav)
- Blowing nose (cover up or do it in the lav)
- Sweating excessively (wipe sweat from forehead)
- Defecating (lav only)
- Urinating (lav only)
- Farting (lav preferably)
- Bleeding (stop it / cover it)
- Sex or french kissing (not in a plane)

EVERYTHING coming out of the human body is nasty to a stranger. Why should breastfeeding be any different? You can do it if you have to, just be considerate and cover up. It is not a celebration of life or expression of the beauty of the human body. It's just nasty.


Just go home and take your backward views with you.

You know, you're as intolerant as the ones you're trying to discredit. Accept that not everyone has the same point of view; that's called "living in society"...


Tolerance also has it's limits. I don't think it's ok to accept someone calling breastfeeding "nasty"
Come with me, there's a place I want you to see, where the leaves are dark, I've got a hiding place in central park.
 
M564038
Posts: 196
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:05 am

We’re expecting another child in a months time. I would strongly advice people not to tell my wife how to breastfeed. It is outside your judiciary, this includes FAs, Captains, airlines and co-passengers. Do so at your own peril.
 
wexfordflyer
Topic Author
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:48 pm

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:46 am

speedbird52 wrote:
wexfordflyer wrote:
afgeneral wrote:
Why is it so hard for people to understand that whenever a fluid or semi-fluid exits the human body it provokes natural disgust to other people? Sometimes you have to do it but it is considerate to minimize other people's exposure to the event.

Not ok:
- Picking nose (cover up or do it in the lav)
- Blowing nose (cover up or do it in the lav)
- Sweating excessively (wipe sweat from forehead)
- Defecating (lav only)
- Urinating (lav only)
- Farting (lav preferably)
- Bleeding (stop it / cover it)
- Sex or french kissing (not in a plane)

EVERYTHING coming out of the human body is nasty to a stranger. Why should breastfeeding be any different? You can do it if you have to, just be considerate and cover up. It is not a celebration of life or expression of the beauty of the human body. It's just nasty.


Just go home and take your backward views with you.

Something tells me that you will be telling me this when I say I don't want my kids watching someone get their dick sucked in public


If you want to come back and have a rational discussion here, let me know. Your fear is getting in the way of you thinking logically.
Come with me, there's a place I want you to see, where the leaves are dark, I've got a hiding place in central park.
 
Jetty
Posts: 971
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:52 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Excuse me, but that's an absurd point of view to adopt. I'm not advocating or pushing anything that isn't a 100% perfectly normal activity. You, on the other hand, seem to have moral issues and wish to curtail that activity. If your morality or modesty prevents you from feeling comfortable around a woman breastfeeding her baby, suggest you remove yourself from such an environment or simply avert your gaze. Just because a mom is breastfeeding doesn't mean you have to look at it, if it makes you uncomfortable. And you've certainly no rights attempting to make live harder for mothers just because it clashes with your ideas of modesty or morality.


Not all cultures are as open as yours. So it's rather arrogant for you to demand others to accede to your beliefs now isn't it.

But here we’re talking about the Dutch national airline. KLM doesn’t even deny this should be fine according to Dutch culture, but somehow gives prevalence to people from different backgrounds. That’s what’s wrong with their stance: you don’t burden mothers from your own culture with the offense taken by people from other cultures.
 
afgeneral
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:43 pm

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:47 am

Jetty wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Excuse me, but that's an absurd point of view to adopt. I'm not advocating or pushing anything that isn't a 100% perfectly normal activity. You, on the other hand, seem to have moral issues and wish to curtail that activity. If your morality or modesty prevents you from feeling comfortable around a woman breastfeeding her baby, suggest you remove yourself from such an environment or simply avert your gaze. Just because a mom is breastfeeding doesn't mean you have to look at it, if it makes you uncomfortable. And you've certainly no rights attempting to make live harder for mothers just because it clashes with your ideas of modesty or morality.


Not all cultures are as open as yours. So it's rather arrogant for you to demand others to accede to your beliefs now isn't it.

But here we’re talking about the Dutch national airline. KLM doesn’t even deny this should be fine according to Dutch culture, but somehow gives prevalence to people from different backgrounds. That’s what’s wrong with their stance: you don’t burden mothers from your own culture with the offense taken by people from other cultures.


Well Lufthansa no longer serves pork meals in Economy despite the fact that Germans eat a lot of pork. It's all about being inclusive you see.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6321
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:32 pm

Jetty wrote:
But here we’re talking about the Dutch national airline. KLM doesn’t even deny this should be fine according to Dutch culture, but somehow gives prevalence to people from different backgrounds. That’s what’s wrong with their stance: you don’t burden mothers from your own culture with the offense taken by people from other cultures.


That was my take on this as well. The Netherlands is probably among the most advanced cultures around when it comes to sexuality and anything related to it. It makes perfect sense to me that a Dutch woman would have no shame in openly nursing her child and most Dutch wouldn't even give it a second glance.

So my thoughts are that KLM is not admonishing the practice, but merely reminding the Dutch that most other cultures are not as advanced and in some examples quite backward. In recognition of those "non-Dutch" people, maybe some modesty might be advisable.

Whether the advice is warranted? Well, that's the whole discussion, isn't it?
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Virtual737
Posts: 616
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:42 pm

Armaghman wrote:

We need to remember this is an extremely natural thing.


Playing Devil's Advocate here. Taking a poo is also completely natural, 100% physiological and performed by 100% of the world's population every day (yes, yes, I know). Just because it is an extremely natural thing doesn't mean it is something to share with the world.

The above does not mean I'm taking any sides in this debate. Quite happy here sitting on the fence, baring my rear to the neighbours.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1216
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:43 pm

wexfordflyer wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
wexfordflyer wrote:

Just go home and take your backward views with you.

You know, you're as intolerant as the ones you're trying to discredit. Accept that not everyone has the same point of view; that's called "living in society"...


Tolerance also has it's limits. I don't think it's ok to accept someone calling breastfeeding "nasty"

Tolerance indeed has its limits. No one called breastfeeding "nasty"; but not every one wants to see it done.

Again, living in society means you need to understand that what you're doing, as noble and well-intended it may be, could not be to someone else's view.
They didn't banish this woman from the flight or the airline; they asked her to cover her a bit. Quite a difference.
 
BrooklyBOMgal
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:16 am

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:25 pm

kjeld0d wrote:
wexfordflyer wrote:
I'm very suprised at KLM here. They seem a bit out of touch, and certainly behind other airlines in their thinking on this topic.


They've got their virtue signals crossed. They want to be seen as progressive AND multicultural. What if some cultures are not progressive?

KLM is a Dutch airline and they should stick to Dutch culture. Multiculturalism isn't necessarily good. Ever been to BHX?
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 368
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:34 pm

Personally in regards to women popping out their mammary glands, I used to find offense.

But because now apparently it is even more offense to certain none western cultures... I whole heartedly encourage women to pop them out and provide natural, wholesome, environmentally friendly, green nourishment, for living space children.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
goosebayguy
Posts: 656
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:12 pm

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:35 pm

Another day another cause for KLM. Very definitely thier new marketing campaign.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... uples.html
 
Jetty
Posts: 971
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:42 pm

^^ The actual email is baffling. Not only the reference to gay couples, but the writing quality in general. From the UK reservations department btw, so the person probably had no business discussing these topics topics to start with.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ErinClaireSF ... 24/photo/1
Image
 
User avatar
Keith2004
Posts: 297
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:59 am

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:29 pm

Jetty wrote:
^^ The actual email is baffling. Not only the reference to gay couples, but the writing quality in general. From the UK reservations department btw, so the person probably had no business discussing these topics topics to start with.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ErinClaireSF ... 24/photo/1
Image


That is embarrassing, coming from an English speaking country, but I suspect the person that drafted the email was not a native speaker.

As to the reference to gay couples.... A western airline from a progressive country like the Netherlands - 1st country in the world to recognize same sex marriage - is going to have employees approach a gay couple and "act accordingly" so they can accommodate some passenger uncomfortable with gay people? ABSURD :banghead:

If a passenger is uncomfortable with a gay couple on a plane, tell em to F*** off to some airline that represents such backwards thinking *Hint they are often Dry airlines
Last edited by Keith2004 on Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
sportzbar
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:54 pm

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:40 pm

How about the offended passenger is offered a cover so they don't have to see something that is as natural as breathing. That is of course if they have apparently lost the ability to turn their head the other way....
 
speedbird52
Posts: 768
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:34 am

oldannyboy wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
OMG, this thread is quite something.

Bottom line *for me* is that I do not see the problem with anything that deals with the human body, and the nourishing/survival of said human body.
I totally fail to see how seeing a part of a fellow human being should make someone uncomfortable, least offend them, when we are all human beings, with an equally functioning body, that performs the same bodily functions - I mean, we are all born equal, we all come from the same place, and were all breastfed at one point; so what is the big deal?
Why are people so uptight about body parts and nudity?. . What's wrong with being human?
I think the perfection of the human body is the ultimate most beautiful thing in life, so I cannot see how said work of perfection could in the very least make someone uncomfortable.... feeding a newborn human life.. I mean' what's more beautiful and peaceful to look at than that?

So I should be allowed to urinate into a cup on a plane at my seat?


Let me answer you by asking you whether you think that feeding a baby is just like whipping your dick out of your pants and start pissing in a cup. I mean man, come on. Let's be rational here.

Both are natural human functions, both involve bodily fluids, both are things society does not allow done in public purely for cultural reasons. I see absolutely no difference except that piss doesn't feed anyone
 
speedbird52
Posts: 768
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:36 am

sportzbar wrote:
How about the offended passenger is offered a cover so they don't have to see something that is as natural as breathing. That is of course if they have apparently lost the ability to turn their head the other way....

There are many situations where it would be impossible to turn your head away, for example if you are walking down the aisle. Now if someone was discretely urinating in a cup, not paying attention would be easy. #Freethepiss
 
ual763
Posts: 954
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:41 am

I see nothing wrong with asking them to cover up. “Oh, but it is natural.” Well, guess what? Pissing is also a natural thing to do as well. Should I be allowed to just whip out a Lil’ John and piss into it while sitting next to fellow passengers? I think most rational minded people would say no. Pleasuring oneself is also a very “natural” thing to do. If you were to do this in public, you’d get arrested. So, society needs to quit the virtue signaling and PC crap and just do what most rational people would do in public (to be courteous to others) and cover up. Or even better, pump on the ground and bring a bottle on board. Voila! Problem Solved!
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
ual763
Posts: 954
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:48 am

afgeneral wrote:
Jetty wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Not all cultures are as open as yours. So it's rather arrogant for you to demand others to accede to your beliefs now isn't it.

But here we’re talking about the Dutch national airline. KLM doesn’t even deny this should be fine according to Dutch culture, but somehow gives prevalence to people from different backgrounds. That’s what’s wrong with their stance: you don’t burden mothers from your own culture with the offense taken by people from other cultures.


Well Lufthansa no longer serves pork meals in Economy despite the fact that Germans eat a lot of pork. It's all about being inclusive you see.


Which is a BS excuse since Lufthansa and pretty much every other airline offers special meals for dietary restrictions and for religious reasons. I have always found it absolutely awful that the only sausage you will ever find on a Lufthansa flight are those nasty chicken sausages. Can’t imagine the Germans are all too thrilled about that decision either. Not like they have a choice though as corporations the World over compete over who can be the most PC.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
2175301
Posts: 1505
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:12 am

ual763 wrote:
Which is a BS excuse since Lufthansa and pretty much every other airline offers special meals for dietary restrictions and for religious reasons. I have always found it absolutely awful that the only sausage you will ever find on a Lufthansa flight are those nasty chicken sausages. Can’t imagine the Germans are all too thrilled about that decision either. Not like they have a choice though as corporations the World over compete over who can be the most PC.


Chicken is typically cheaper than pork... and that may be the main (and perhaps only) explanation...

Have a great day,
 
ual763
Posts: 954
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:16 am

2175301 wrote:
ual763 wrote:
Which is a BS excuse since Lufthansa and pretty much every other airline offers special meals for dietary restrictions and for religious reasons. I have always found it absolutely awful that the only sausage you will ever find on a Lufthansa flight are those nasty chicken sausages. Can’t imagine the Germans are all too thrilled about that decision either. Not like they have a choice though as corporations the World over compete over who can be the most PC.


Chicken is typically cheaper than pork... and that may be the main (and perhaps only) explanation...

Have a great day,


It is so gross though. Especially when reheated on a plane. Haha and especially on a German airline! Feed me some nürnberger Bratwürstchen mit Bratkartoffeln!

Have a great day as well :)
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
User avatar
tjcab
Posts: 350
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 3:14 am

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:32 am

Yes, KLM made a fuss over the nursing. BUT at the same time we don't have to make a fuss over KLM's actions a week later. Seems like the disproportionate outrage. Yes, they heard the complain and likely will tread carefully going forward. Everyone just needs to let it go already. There must certainly be more important things for people to do that go on an on about this small incident. There are far worse things happening in the world that people could care less about

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