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jfklganyc
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NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:54 am

Reading the India start/restart threads got me thinking

These routes are supposedly very profitable for UA. Same market essentially, but DL isnt very interested in NRT HND China and is just starting to put its toe in India.

Historically, CO had to start these routes from EWR if they wanted to serve these cities. They had 3 hubs and EWR was best-suited for these long haul flights.

Historically, DL had several more hubs than Continental, and had more options for starting long haul Asia beyond NYC.

UA has kept these supposedly very profitable services, while DL has shrunk Asian service from JFK.

Why?

If these markets are so profitable, why isnt DL in them?

The Asian carriers at JFK? Maybe. But some of them are quite iffy. Im sure Delta Medallions would jump at DL vs Air China.

The hub size differential for connections? DL and UA are on parity in NYC, but DL has a split hub where UA doesnt. Nonetheless, One with think the profitability of these flights comes from the O and D. Surely, DL has enough feed at JFK to launch a morning bank of Asia flights to help O and D.

Lack of interest is serving the Asia NYC customer?
Maybe. But given the resources they have thrown at winning NYC in last 10 years, I find it odd that they would draw the line at Asia.

Perhaps these flights arent as profitable as we think on a.net?
This is the one that piques my interest.
 
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Polot
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:11 am

jfklganyc wrote:

Historically, DL had several more hubs than Continental, and had more options for starting long haul Asia beyond NYC.

Not really. DL pre-NW was weak in Asia just like CO after dropping the PDX mini hub. For quite a while ATL-NRT/ICN and briefly PVG were their only Asian routes.
Last edited by Polot on Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
mcdu
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:12 am

jfklganyc wrote:
Reading the India start/restart threads got me thinking

These routes are supposedly very profitable for UA. Same market essentially, but DL isnt very interested in NRT HND China and is just starting to put its toe in India.

Historically, CO had to start these routes from EWR if they wanted to serve these cities. They had 3 hubs and EWR was best-suited for these long haul flights.

Historically, DL had several more hubs than Continental, and had more options for starting long haul Asia beyond NYC.

UA has kept these supposedly very profitable services, while DL has shrunk Asian service from JFK.

Why?

If these markets are so profitable, why isnt DL in them?

The Asian carriers at JFK? Maybe. But some of them are quite iffy. Im sure Delta Medallions would jump at DL vs Air China.

The hub size differential for connections? DL and UA are on parity in NYC, but DL has a split hub where UA doesnt. Nonetheless, One with think the profitability of these flights comes from the O and D. Surely, DL has enough feed at JFK to launch a morning bank of Asia flights to help O and D.

Lack of interest is serving the Asia NYC customer?
Maybe. But given the resources they have thrown at winning NYC in last 10 years, I find it odd that they would draw the line at Asia.

Perhaps these flights arent as profitable as we think on a.net?
This is the one that piques my interest.



I would think a bit of it is feed. I don’t believe DL and JFK has as many markets that feed JFK as UA does at EWR. Also UA has a stronger presence/passenger base on the Asia end of the operation. More tickets bought from Asia to USA than those looking at DL.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:14 am

This has been discussed a number of times before. DL's TPAC route map is still undergoing a fundamental shift. When DL and NW merged, DL inherited the NW TPAC footprint, which was significant in size and market share, but focused on NRT and connections beyond. The NRT hub was build around a post-WWII agreement with the Japanese and in its later years, designed to support inbound 747 flights from the US and Hawaii to connect passengers onto flights beyond. The 747 has been replaced on TPAC routes largely by 77Ws, 777s, A350s, and 787s all of which make most of Asia reachable nonstop, bypassing NRT completely. NW never had a major presence in NYC, except for JFK-NRT and later, JFK-AMS, operating both as a conduit to rotate a 747-400. DL assumed the JFK-NRT route from NW, flew it with a 747-400 and later a 772 but the dropped it as the NRT hub focus shifted away. DL's long term strategy in Asia is to leverage KL at ICN and China Eastern at PVG. It is also focused on further establishing SEA as its West Coast TPAC gateway and has had mixed results there. JFK is less of a connecting hub for DL than a P2P way to serve the country's largest O&D market.

UA inherited the CO route map at EWR and the CO then UA platform at EWR is more of a mix of O&D and connections from the East Coast to Asia and there are long held corporate contracts supporting these routes. Star Alliance broadly (and then oneworld) is the dominant one from NYC (EWR and JFK to Asia).

There are many airlines flying NYC to Asia as it is, so DL probably feels it can leverage what it has from DTW, MSP, ATL, as well as SEA and LAX and does not feel the need to fly from JFK.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:23 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
DL's long term strategy in Asia is to leverage KL at ICN and China Eastern at PVG.

I'm guessing this is supposed to be KE (Korean Air) at ICN rather than KL (KLM).
Captain Kevin
 
cokepopper
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:44 am

Just a point, Delta flew JFK-NRT before the merger with Northwest. MD-11
 
Cointrin330
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:19 pm

AirKevin wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
DL's long term strategy in Asia is to leverage KL at ICN and China Eastern at PVG.

I'm guessing this is supposed to be KE (Korean Air) at ICN rather than KL (KLM).


Yes, Korean Air, not KLM. I meant KE.
 
flyfresno
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:26 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
flights from the US and Hawaii


Hawaii isn’t part of the US? ;)
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:41 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Reading the India start/restart threads got me thinking

These routes are supposedly very profitable for UA. Same market essentially, but DL isnt very interested in NRT HND China and is just starting to put its toe in India.

Historically, CO had to start these routes from EWR if they wanted to serve these cities. They had 3 hubs and EWR was best-suited for these long haul flights.

Historically, DL had several more hubs than Continental, and had more options for starting long haul Asia beyond NYC.

UA has kept these supposedly very profitable services, while DL has shrunk Asian service from JFK.

Why?

If these markets are so profitable, why isnt DL in them?

The Asian carriers at JFK? Maybe. But some of them are quite iffy. Im sure Delta Medallions would jump at DL vs Air China.

The hub size differential for connections? DL and UA are on parity in NYC, but DL has a split hub where UA doesnt. Nonetheless, One with think the profitability of these flights comes from the O and D. Surely, DL has enough feed at JFK to launch a morning bank of Asia flights to help O and D.

Lack of interest is serving the Asia NYC customer?
Maybe. But given the resources they have thrown at winning NYC in last 10 years, I find it odd that they would draw the line at Asia.

Perhaps these flights arent as profitable as we think on a.net?
This is the one that piques my interest.


What makes you think the markets are so profitable? UA actually loses money on their Asian network on the whole.
Religion is the root of evil...
 
x1234
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:46 pm

With the age of JVs they don't need to service the market themselves when their partner can do so and they get part of the revenue. UA has a JV with NH, AA with JL and DL with KE. There's overkill on capacity particularly on JFK-ICN with 2x KE A380s. Why does DL need to serve it themselves!?
 
mcdu
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:48 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Reading the India start/restart threads got me thinking

These routes are supposedly very profitable for UA. Same market essentially, but DL isnt very interested in NRT HND China and is just starting to put its toe in India.

Historically, CO had to start these routes from EWR if they wanted to serve these cities. They had 3 hubs and EWR was best-suited for these long haul flights.

Historically, DL had several more hubs than Continental, and had more options for starting long haul Asia beyond NYC.

UA has kept these supposedly very profitable services, while DL has shrunk Asian service from JFK.

Why?

If these markets are so profitable, why isnt DL in them?

The Asian carriers at JFK? Maybe. But some of them are quite iffy. Im sure Delta Medallions would jump at DL vs Air China.

The hub size differential for connections? DL and UA are on parity in NYC, but DL has a split hub where UA doesnt. Nonetheless, One with think the profitability of these flights comes from the O and D. Surely, DL has enough feed at JFK to launch a morning bank of Asia flights to help O and D.

Lack of interest is serving the Asia NYC customer?
Maybe. But given the resources they have thrown at winning NYC in last 10 years, I find it odd that they would draw the line at Asia.

Perhaps these flights arent as profitable as we think on a.net?
This is the one that piques my interest.


What makes you think the markets are so profitable? UA actually loses money on their Asian network on the whole.


Can you show your math? UAL had a PRASM in 2Q/19 up 2.8% YOY in the Pacific. The Pacific has done well even with the tariff issues and Asian uncertainty.
 
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:01 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
The Asian carriers at JFK? Maybe. But some of them are quite iffy. Im sure Delta Medallions would jump at DL vs Air China.


CX and KE are in the top 20 carriers by passenger count at JFK. JAL and ANA are not but I suspect they get a lot of the traffic to TYO. CX also makes the top 20 at EWR.

DL has a lot of equity investments in foreign carriers - AFKL, VS, G3, AM, MU, KE. That, along with a thin widebody order book pointing to stable long-haul ASMs, not rapid growth, suggests to me that a big push for Asia from JFK is not in the cards.
 
United1
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:10 pm

mcdu wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Reading the India start/restart threads got me thinking

These routes are supposedly very profitable for UA. Same market essentially, but DL isnt very interested in NRT HND China and is just starting to put its toe in India.

Historically, CO had to start these routes from EWR if they wanted to serve these cities. They had 3 hubs and EWR was best-suited for these long haul flights.

Historically, DL had several more hubs than Continental, and had more options for starting long haul Asia beyond NYC.

UA has kept these supposedly very profitable services, while DL has shrunk Asian service from JFK.

Why?

If these markets are so profitable, why isnt DL in them?

The Asian carriers at JFK? Maybe. But some of them are quite iffy. Im sure Delta Medallions would jump at DL vs Air China.

The hub size differential for connections? DL and UA are on parity in NYC, but DL has a split hub where UA doesnt. Nonetheless, One with think the profitability of these flights comes from the O and D. Surely, DL has enough feed at JFK to launch a morning bank of Asia flights to help O and D.

Lack of interest is serving the Asia NYC customer?
Maybe. But given the resources they have thrown at winning NYC in last 10 years, I find it odd that they would draw the line at Asia.

Perhaps these flights arent as profitable as we think on a.net?
This is the one that piques my interest.


What makes you think the markets are so profitable? UA actually loses money on their Asian network on the whole.


Can you show your math? UAL had a PRASM in 2Q/19 up 2.8% YOY in the Pacific. The Pacific has done well even with the tariff issues and Asian uncertainty.


He's probably basing that statement off BTS stats that show UAs Pacific network as being unprofitable. You need to be careful with BTS stats as there isn't an industry standard for how revenue and costs are allocated among the regions. In other words airlines can, and do, manipulate those statistics to show anything they want them to.
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LAXdude1023
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:37 pm

United1 wrote:
mcdu wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

What makes you think the markets are so profitable? UA actually loses money on their Asian network on the whole.


Can you show your math? UAL had a PRASM in 2Q/19 up 2.8% YOY in the Pacific. The Pacific has done well even with the tariff issues and Asian uncertainty.


He's probably basing that statement off BTS stats that show UAs Pacific network as being unprofitable. You need to be careful with BTS stats as there isn't an industry standard for how revenue and costs are allocated among the regions. In other words airlines can, and do, manipulate those statistics to show anything they want them to.


Maybe, but it would be pretty crazy to suggest that a region is actually very profitable but that the airline lists it as unprofitable in the BTS statistics.
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Polot
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:41 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
United1 wrote:
mcdu wrote:

Can you show your math? UAL had a PRASM in 2Q/19 up 2.8% YOY in the Pacific. The Pacific has done well even with the tariff issues and Asian uncertainty.


He's probably basing that statement off BTS stats that show UAs Pacific network as being unprofitable. You need to be careful with BTS stats as there isn't an industry standard for how revenue and costs are allocated among the regions. In other words airlines can, and do, manipulate those statistics to show anything they want them to.


Maybe, but it would be pretty crazy to suggest that a region is actually very profitable but that the airline lists it as unprofitable in the BTS statistics.

Not super crazy. It is in an airline’s best interest to hide where their profitability comes from as much as possible.
 
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:46 pm

Delta has good access to Asia via SEA, ICN, and DTW. No reason delta needs to fly any routes direct. They can one-stop to all the major cities.
 
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:56 pm

Polot wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
United1 wrote:

He's probably basing that statement off BTS stats that show UAs Pacific network as being unprofitable. You need to be careful with BTS stats as there isn't an industry standard for how revenue and costs are allocated among the regions. In other words airlines can, and do, manipulate those statistics to show anything they want them to.


Maybe, but it would be pretty crazy to suggest that a region is actually very profitable but that the airline lists it as unprofitable in the BTS statistics.

Not super crazy. It is in an airline’s best interest to hide where their profitability comes from as much as possible.


Maybe, but that doesnt answer the OP's assertion. He asserted that UA's EWR-Asia network is profitable. There is no evidence that it is. So I ask again, what makes you think these routes are profitable?
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FSDan
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:30 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Delta has good access to Asia via SEA, ICN, and DTW. No reason delta needs to fly any routes direct. They can one-stop to all the major cities.


I don't know. I keep thinking that DL might try JFK-HKG nonstop at some point. If they're chasing corporate accounts in the Finance industry in NYC, that one might be important to serve nonstop. So far, though, that doesn't appear to have been the case...

I do, however, agree with you that there doesn't seem to be any reason for DL to want to jump into markets like JFK-ICN, JFK-PEK, and JFK-PVG.
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Ishrion
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:35 pm

You might find some answers in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1413719
 
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Polot
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:37 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Polot wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

Maybe, but it would be pretty crazy to suggest that a region is actually very profitable but that the airline lists it as unprofitable in the BTS statistics.

Not super crazy. It is in an airline’s best interest to hide where their profitability comes from as much as possible.


Maybe, but that doesnt answer the OP's assertion. He asserted that UA's EWR-Asia network is profitable. There is no evidence that it is. So I ask again, what makes you think these routes are profitable?

I don’t know if they are profitable or not. The BTS data does not also show that they are profitable or not. All we can say is that UA has been consistent with the EWR-Asia routes, and in fact upgauged some of them to 77Ws, suggesting that at the very least they are satisfied with their financial performance.
 
jasoncrh
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:53 pm

BTS statistics do not show profitability. Airlines do not disclose by-route profitability anywhere, just overall profitability in their financial statements. The best anybody can do is GUESS profiability based on an airline's publicly disclose filings.

Airlines dont normally continue to fly unprofitable services. The fact that UA continues to serve its Asian destinations from Newark while Delta has not been able to keep any Asian flying from JFK is telling.


LAXdude1023 wrote:
United1 wrote:
mcdu wrote:

Can you show your math? UAL had a PRASM in 2Q/19 up 2.8% YOY in the Pacific. The Pacific has done well even with the tariff issues and Asian uncertainty.


He's probably basing that statement off BTS stats that show UAs Pacific network as being unprofitable. You need to be careful with BTS stats as there isn't an industry standard for how revenue and costs are allocated among the regions. In other words airlines can, and do, manipulate those statistics to show anything they want them to.


Maybe, but it would be pretty crazy to suggest that a region is actually very profitable but that the airline lists it as unprofitable in the BTS statistics.
 
umichman
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:03 pm

cokepopper wrote:
Just a point, Delta flew JFK-NRT before the merger with Northwest. MD-11


And Northwest had suspended JFK-NRT prior to the merger with DL. DL resumed it after the merger, but had problems making it work just like NW did.
 
codc10
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:09 pm

Delta is JV-focused for its international network, and would rather leverage its super-profitable domestic system. JFK-Asia is lower-PRASM flying and resource-intensive.
 
tphuang
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:57 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Delta has good access to Asia via SEA, ICN, and DTW. No reason delta needs to fly any routes direct. They can one-stop to all the major cities.

New York isn't like the res of the country. If you can't serve direct, then you are not competitive.

Delta is not workable for someone that does a lot of flying to Asia out of NYC unless your end destination is Shanghai or Seoul.
 
UALifer
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:16 pm

If UA truly isn’t profitable in TPAC (remember this also includes Australia/NZ, which UA has already indicated is underperforming when they cut LAX/IAH-SYD to less than daily), then I would think that most of the unprofitable Asia flying is coming from ORD and possibly LAX, not EWR. The fact that United wants to go double daily on EWR-TYO/PVG indicates to me that these are fairly profitable.
 
strfyr51
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:28 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Reading the India start/restart threads got me thinking

These routes are supposedly very profitable for UA. Same market essentially, but DL isnt very interested in NRT HND China and is just starting to put its toe in India.

Historically, CO had to start these routes from EWR if they wanted to serve these cities. They had 3 hubs and EWR was best-suited for these long haul flights.

Historically, DL had several more hubs than Continental, and had more options for starting long haul Asia beyond NYC.

UA has kept these supposedly very profitable services, while DL has shrunk Asian service from JFK.

Why?

If these markets are so profitable, why isnt DL in them?

The Asian carriers at JFK? Maybe. But some of them are quite iffy. Im sure Delta Medallions would jump at DL vs Air China.

The hub size differential for connections? DL and UA are on parity in NYC, but DL has a split hub where UA doesnt. Nonetheless, One with think the profitability of these flights comes from the O and D. Surely, DL has enough feed at JFK to launch a morning bank of Asia flights to help O and D.

Lack of interest is serving the Asia NYC customer?
Maybe. But given the resources they have thrown at winning NYC in last 10 years, I find it odd that they would draw the line at Asia.

Perhaps these flights arent as profitable as we think on a.net?
This is the one that piques my interest.


What makes you think the markets are so profitable? UA actually loses money on their Asian network on the whole.

and you know this HOW? If United was losing money? We'd have pulled out Long ago! We bought those routes from Pan-AM for $750M and they have returned Numerous times more profits above that $750M we gave Pan Am for the routes. You don't have any IDEA what you're talking about!!
1
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:32 pm

Am I the only one that finds DL not being able to serve JFK-Tokyo hilarious?
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Cointrin330
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:18 pm

FSDan wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Delta has good access to Asia via SEA, ICN, and DTW. No reason delta needs to fly any routes direct. They can one-stop to all the major cities.


I don't know. I keep thinking that DL might try JFK-HKG nonstop at some point. If they're chasing corporate accounts in the Finance industry in NYC, that one might be important to serve nonstop. So far, though, that doesn't appear to have been the case...

I do, however, agree with you that there doesn't seem to be any reason for DL to want to jump into markets like JFK-ICN, JFK-PEK, and JFK-PVG.


For ICN they have 2 x daily KE, and PVG there is China Eastern. Highly unlikely DL will start a stand alone route to HKG from JFK. They'd be going up vs. 3 x daily CX (+1 daily CX at EWR) and 1 x daily on UA also from EWR.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:19 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Am I the only one that finds DL not being able to serve JFK-Tokyo hilarious?


It's not a question of not being able to. They probably don't want to. DL does not have a slot at HND to use from JFK at the moment, and would need to operate to NRT. DL's end game in Tokyo is to have everything at HND.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:23 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Reading the India start/restart threads got me thinking

These routes are supposedly very profitable for UA. Same market essentially, but DL isnt very interested in NRT HND China and is just starting to put its toe in India.

Historically, CO had to start these routes from EWR if they wanted to serve these cities. They had 3 hubs and EWR was best-suited for these long haul flights.

Historically, DL had several more hubs than Continental, and had more options for starting long haul Asia beyond NYC.

UA has kept these supposedly very profitable services, while DL has shrunk Asian service from JFK.

Why?

If these markets are so profitable, why isnt DL in them?

The Asian carriers at JFK? Maybe. But some of them are quite iffy. Im sure Delta Medallions would jump at DL vs Air China.

The hub size differential for connections? DL and UA are on parity in NYC, but DL has a split hub where UA doesnt. Nonetheless, One with think the profitability of these flights comes from the O and D. Surely, DL has enough feed at JFK to launch a morning bank of Asia flights to help O and D.

Lack of interest is serving the Asia NYC customer?
Maybe. But given the resources they have thrown at winning NYC in last 10 years, I find it odd that they would draw the line at Asia.

Perhaps these flights arent as profitable as we think on a.net?
This is the one that piques my interest.


What makes you think the markets are so profitable? UA actually loses money on their Asian network on the whole.

and you know this HOW? If United was losing money? We'd have pulled out Long ago! We bought those routes from Pan-AM for $750M and they have returned Numerous times more profits above that $750M we gave Pan Am for the routes. You don't have any IDEA what you're talking about!!
1


UA publishes it in BTS. Perhaps they are simply lying in the data which is possible.

And yeah, I have more of an idea about it than Im going to let on here.
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TWA772LR
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:33 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Am I the only one that finds DL not being able to serve JFK-Tokyo hilarious?


It's not a question of not being able to. They probably don't want to. DL does not have a slot at HND to use from JFK at the moment, and would need to operate to NRT. DL's end game in Tokyo is to have everything at HND.

It not like they aren't still operating in to NRT today, plus JFK-NRT was cut nearly 4 years ago when HND slots were less of an issue.
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CarlosSi
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:44 pm

Only hole is SkyTeam-Tokyo. Everything else is moderately covered. Delta has Tokyo sort of covered with DTW for the NE.
 
tpaewr
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:22 pm

The reason the while JFK has the prestige, it functions largely as an international gateway. With LGA being the more desirable domestic airport. This split operation will mean JFK/LGA will never be a powerful as EWR.


Having the domestic feed into EWR is what let CO build EWR into what it is today. The unique combo of the rich O&D of NYC with all the feed from the East coast of the USA.

You see the West Coast mirror image of this with SFO.
 
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STT757
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:23 pm

UA Is adding to their EWR-Asia network:

They were awarded EWR-HND which will be flown in addition to the current EWR-NRT. UA also applied for seven of the China frequencies AA recently surrendered that they used for ORD-PEK/PVG.

This will give UA eight daily nonstops from EWR to Asia:

EWR-BOM 1 77W
EWR-DEL 1 77E
EWR-NRT 1 77W
EWR-HND 1 77E
EWR-PEK 1 77E
EWR-HKG 1 77W
EWR-PVG 2 77E

As UA starts 789 flying from EWR I see them adding Bangalore, Seoul, Taipei, Chennai and Hyderabad.


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x1234
Posts: 492
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:46 pm

STT757, wouldn't up-gauging the PVG (Shanghai) flight to a 77W be cheaper than 2x 77E's!? Or is demand for J class on the PVG route so high they need 2x daily!? Remember China Eastern also flies 2x daily from JFK.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:58 pm

x1234 wrote:
STT757, wouldn't up-gauging the PVG (Shanghai) flight to a 77W be cheaper than 2x 77E's!? Or is demand for J class on the PVG route so high they need 2x daily!? Remember China Eastern also flies 2x daily from JFK.

UA put in for an additional EWR-PVG when the extra China slot came up for grabs.
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FSDan
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:50 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Highly unlikely DL will start a stand alone route to HKG from JFK. They'd be going up vs. 3 x daily CX (+1 daily CX at EWR) and 1 x daily on UA also from EWR.


I'd probably agree with "unlikely", but I do think it's a possibility. Sure, there's competition, but there's competition in any U.S.-HKG market that has meaningful demand. Given DL's hub markets across the country, I actually think JFK-HKG would be the most likely U.S.-HKG market to work for DL, simply because it has a large quantity of lucrative O&D traffic DL could chase.
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FSDan
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:53 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Am I the only one that finds DL not being able to serve JFK-Tokyo hilarious?


I'd say more sad than hilarious. I was disappointed DL applied for 2x HNL-HND slots instead of throwing JFK-HND into their application. That would have been their chance if they wanted to serve the market...
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tlecam
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:23 pm

tphuang wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Delta has good access to Asia via SEA, ICN, and DTW. No reason delta needs to fly any routes direct. They can one-stop to all the major cities.

New York isn't like the res of the country. If you can't serve direct, then you are not competitive.

Delta is not workable for someone that does a lot of flying to Asia out of NYC unless your end destination is Shanghai or Seoul.


This. And Boston is similar on a smaller scale. THere is corporate passenger leakage to JAL/Cathay etc for those who fly to Tokyo and Hong Kong. I am not going to connect in DTW/SEA/ICN etc... just to fly Delta (or a sky team partner).

Delta is aware of this; they’re not stupid. The benefits do not outweigh the costs, but they’re not keeping all their NYC (or BOS) corporate customers by connecting them through DTW/SEA/ICN.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
jumbojet
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:31 pm

tlecam wrote:
[
Delta is not workable for someone that does a lot of flying to Asia out of NYC unless your end destination is Shanghai or Seoul.


This. And Boston is similar on a smaller scale. THere is corporate passenger leakage to JAL/Cathay etc for those who fly to Tokyo and Hong Kong. I am not going to connect in DTW/SEA/ICN etc... just to fly Delta (or a sky team partner).

.[/quote]

you both have no idea what your talking about. I can get just about anywhere in Asia, out of NYC, with only one stop...in Seoul, with a ticket purchased on delta.com. Same with Boston.

Also, if I want to stick with DL metal, there are plenty of people, myself included, who will make that extra stop, just to avoid other less capable airlines.
 
jfk777
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:26 pm

jumbojet wrote:
tlecam wrote:
[
Delta is not workable for someone that does a lot of flying to Asia out of NYC unless your end destination is Shanghai or Seoul.


This. And Boston is similar on a smaller scale. THere is corporate passenger leakage to JAL/Cathay etc for those who fly to Tokyo and Hong Kong. I am not going to connect in DTW/SEA/ICN etc... just to fly Delta (or a sky team partner).

.


you both have no idea what your talking about. I can get just about anywhere in Asia, out of NYC, with only one stop...in Seoul, with a ticket purchased on delta.com. Same with Boston.

Also, if I want to stick with DL metal, there are plenty of people, myself included, who will make that extra stop, just to avoid other less capable airlines.[/quote]

Can appreciate your loyalty to Delta, however, Cathay Pacific and JAL are not "less capable airlines" then Delta. The capabilities are different, but Delta shouldn't be bragging about their Pacific capabilities these days, Northwest was a bigger force then Delta is today in Asia. Much of Delta in Asia is via Korean Air.
 
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tlecam
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:26 am

Jumbojet, I agree with your statement about 1 stops through ICN. However, specifically for Tokyo or Hong Kong, I’m not going to do a 1 stop when I can go direct on JAL or Cathay from BOS.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
jumbojet
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:09 am

tlecam wrote:
Jumbojet, I agree with your statement about 1 stops through ICN. However, specifically for Tokyo or Hong Kong, I’m not going to do a 1 stop when I can go direct on JAL or Cathay from BOS.


I was specifically referring to Tphaungs statement in post #24, He thinks that with DL out of NYC, your final destination in Asia has to be ICN or PVG. What? Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:18 am

jumbojet wrote:
tlecam wrote:
Jumbojet, I agree with your statement about 1 stops through ICN. However, specifically for Tokyo or Hong Kong, I’m not going to do a 1 stop when I can go direct on JAL or Cathay from BOS.


I was specifically referring to Tphaungs statement in post #24, He thinks that with DL out of NYC, your final destination in Asia has to be ICN or PVG. What? Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.


That’s your personal choice. If you wish to double connect to stay on DL Metal, more power to you. However, the overwhelming majority of businesses travelers do not share that view.
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SpartanFlyZone
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:38 am

Polot wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
United1 wrote:

He's probably basing that statement off BTS stats that show UAs Pacific network as being unprofitable. You need to be careful with BTS stats as there isn't an industry standard for how revenue and costs are allocated among the regions. In other words airlines can, and do, manipulate those statistics to show anything they want them to.


Maybe, but it would be pretty crazy to suggest that a region is actually very profitable but that the airline lists it as unprofitable in the BTS statistics.

Not super crazy. It is in an airline’s best interest to hide where their profitability comes from as much as possible.


Sorry, hate to be me dismissive of your opinion, but that is not how public company business works. Profitability is not hidden with public companies. Your theory is known as securities fraud in the US.
 
United1
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:40 am

SpartanFlyZone wrote:
Polot wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

Maybe, but it would be pretty crazy to suggest that a region is actually very profitable but that the airline lists it as unprofitable in the BTS statistics.

Not super crazy. It is in an airline’s best interest to hide where their profitability comes from as much as possible.


Sorry, hate to be me dismissive of your opinion, but that is not how public company business works. Profitability is not hidden with public companies. Your theory is known as securities fraud in the US.


BTS statistics are not reported to the SEC and don’t have to follow standard accounting principles.
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jumbojet
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:48 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
tlecam wrote:
Jumbojet, I agree with your statement about 1 stops through ICN. However, specifically for Tokyo or Hong Kong, I’m not going to do a 1 stop when I can go direct on JAL or Cathay from BOS.


I was specifically referring to Tphaungs statement in post #24, He thinks that with DL out of NYC, your final destination in Asia has to be ICN or PVG. What? Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.


That’s your personal choice. If you wish to double connect to stay on DL Metal, more power to you. However, the overwhelming majority of businesses travelers do not share that view.


Guess what, not all passengers on a plane are business travelers. Lots and lots of folks, like myself, fly for pleasure or are on vacation. However, my original point, which you conveniently missed, is that you can book a ticket on Delta.com and fly from NYC (and BOS) and go one stop to just about any point on the fact of the earth. You can do this on Delta thanks to its JV partnership with KL. Its one of the many reasons DL prints the kind of money they do, hand over first, quarter after quarter.
 
SpartanFlyZone
Posts: 5
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:54 am

United1 wrote:
SpartanFlyZone wrote:
Polot wrote:
Not super crazy. It is in an airline’s best interest to hide where their profitability comes from as much as possible.


Sorry, hate to be me dismissive of your opinion, but that is not how public company business works. Profitability is not hidden with public companies. Your theory is known as securities fraud in the US.


BTS statistics are not reported to the SEC and don’t have to follow standard accounting principles.


Misrepresenting profitability is most definitely a securities law issue. Having been responsible for filing numerous SEC filings for public companies, no responsible reporting person would ever sign or agree to file any report or statistics that could mislead the public. Filing inconsistent reports with other public data (e.g., BTS statistics) is evidence of fraud. Your theory is asinine.
 
questions
Posts: 1955
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:48 am

Delta was late to the game in forming SkyTeam and that didn’t help with Asia. They had to pick from the leftovers.

Not being competitive in bidding and losing out to AA for a stake in JL didn’t help either.

JL and CX would have been much better partners for DL and certainly would have helped JFK-Asia.

Instead Delta has:
- China Airlines
- China Eastern
- Garuda Indonesia
- Korean Air
- Vietnam Airlines
- XiamenAir

Like, seriously.

Lucrative, premium passengers do not want to connect in the US and then again in Asia. They want JFK to their Asian destination nonstop.
 
XRadar98
Posts: 54
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:24 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Delta has good access to Asia via SEA, ICN, and DTW. No reason delta needs to fly any routes direct. They can one-stop to all the major cities.

One stop is direct. Do you actually mean non-stop, when you say Delta with a little d, no reason to fly direct?

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