dmstorm22
Posts: 541
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:46 pm

HP69 wrote:
DL could easily make nonstops from JFK to NRT, PEK, PVG, HKG, TPE, MNL, andSGN work.


What is your reasoning behind this?

Why/How exactly could DL make this work?
 
HP69
Posts: 217
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:50 pm

DL has a way better EU network than UA though.
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 635
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:59 pm

DL has more comfortable planes to Asia. 767 in 2-3-2 seating or 777 in 3-3-3 seating.

UA uses 787s in 3-3-3 seating or 777s in 3-4-3 seating.
 
FSDan
Posts: 2618
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:28 pm

rjmf22 wrote:
UA would like to have their JFK slots back, but theyre doing just fine in the NYC area without it, and better than Delta as the numbers prove.


Which numbers are you referring to? I don't doubt that UA makes more money in the NYC area than DL, but I'm unaware of a hub-by-hub profitability breakdown that either UA or DL have provided...
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FSDan
Posts: 2618
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:32 pm

HP69 wrote:
DL could easily make nonstops from JFK to NRT, PEK, PVG, HKG, TPE, MNL, and SGN work.


I can't tell if this is serious, or an intentional hyperbole...

Assuming it's serious, what makes you think DL could turn JFK into the 2nd largest TPAC hub in the U.S. (behind UA at SFO, and without the ability to offer even a third as many logical connections) overnight and do OK with it? Note that two of these destinations, MNL and SGN, aren't served nonstop from the mainland by any U.S. carrier, and SGN by no carrier at all.
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United1
Posts: 3869
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:39 pm

HP69 wrote:
DL has a way better EU network than UA though.


Oh?

Might surprise you that UA serves more cities in Europe from EWR than DL does from JFK.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 600
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:44 pm

HP69 wrote:
DL has a way better EU network than UA though.


Don’t think so...what metric are you using?
 
mpdpilot
Posts: 798
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:04 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
What people don't realize is what DL is doing with two hubs in NYC, UA could do in one. That's what really sets the two airlines apart. As a matter of fact, UA doesn't even serve all 3 airports!


This is the reason right here! While as I said above, DL has some offerings to Asia on its partners flights, the reason DL will not be as big as UA from NYC to Asia is entirely due to a lack of feed. Below are a few scenarios where DL could match UA (none of which I think are going to happen...)

1. DL buys Jetblue.
2. AA dramatically pulls back at JFK.
3. LGA closes and they add runways in Jamica Bay for JFK.
4. NYC builds a megahub in the water around NYC (i.e. think Kansai but bigger)

All of this would allow Delta to grow and all that growth would support NRT/HND, ICN, PVG*, PEK*, etc. Not likely to happen anytime soon, but as another poster mentioned, when Delta is bringing in almost 2 cents more per mile than United, does it matter?

In alot of ways Jetblue's presence puts the same damper on DL at JFK that Alaska's presence in SEA does. JFK and SEA airports/cities could handle a DTW size operation if it wasn't for there being two separate carriers. And realistically NYC could handle 3 DTW sized operations if it wasn't for there being 3 separate airports.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2270
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:17 pm

mpdpilot wrote:
All of this would allow Delta to grow and all that growth would support NRT/HND, ICN, PVG*, PEK*, etc. Not likely to happen anytime soon, but as another poster mentioned, when Delta is bringing in almost 2 cents more per mile than United, does it matter?

In alot of ways Jetblue's presence puts the same damper on DL at JFK that Alaska's presence in SEA does. JFK and SEA airports/cities could handle a DTW size operation if it wasn't for there being two separate carriers. And realistically NYC could handle 3 DTW sized operations if it wasn't for there being 3 separate airports.


You are the second person to mention this and it has me wondering why UA's TRASM's are so much lower than DL and how does UA's lower TRASMs factor into the lack of DL metal on any JFK-Asia route?
Some people have asserted on this and other threads UA is loosing money on our EWR-Asia flights ( I don't know if we are making or loosing money) but are you and others suggesting their is a direct link between UA's lower TRASM's and our EWR-Asia flights? Are people looking at the entire networks of these airlines and dissecting the differences between UA and DL to really nail down why there is almost a 2 cents difference? Or are people assuming there is a direct link between UA's lower TRASM's and UA's EWR-Asia flights simply because DL does not serve this market nonstop on their own metal?

This next statement may seem like I'm throwing shade at DL I can promise you I'm not DL's record speaks for itself and of the US3 DL is the clear market leader by far.

However,,I've noticed the prevailing attitude here on a.netters is if DL can't make money on a flight or isn't on a route then AA and/or UA either shouldn't launch the route or must be loosing money on the flight or route as well.
 
rjmf22
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 10:37 pm

Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:41 pm

FSDan wrote:
rjmf22 wrote:
UA would like to have their JFK slots back, but theyre doing just fine in the NYC area without it, and better than Delta as the numbers prove.


Which numbers are you referring to? I don't doubt that UA makes more money in the NYC area than DL, but I'm unaware of a hub-by-hub profitability breakdown that either UA or DL have provided...


Few posts up:

Total 2018 passengers (domestic & international) at JFK, LGA, and EWR combined:
United 32,734,720
Delta 30,804,043
JetBlue 17,677,527
American 16,672,712

Source: https://www.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-traffic/ATR2018.pdf
United Airlines
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 541
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:48 pm

jayunited wrote:
mpdpilot wrote:
All of this would allow Delta to grow and all that growth would support NRT/HND, ICN, PVG*, PEK*, etc. Not likely to happen anytime soon, but as another poster mentioned, when Delta is bringing in almost 2 cents more per mile than United, does it matter?

In alot of ways Jetblue's presence puts the same damper on DL at JFK that Alaska's presence in SEA does. JFK and SEA airports/cities could handle a DTW size operation if it wasn't for there being two separate carriers. And realistically NYC could handle 3 DTW sized operations if it wasn't for there being 3 separate airports.


You are the second person to mention this and it has me wondering why UA's TRASM's are so much lower than DL and how does UA's lower TRASMs factor into the lack of DL metal on any JFK-Asia route?
Some people have asserted on this and other threads UA is loosing money on our EWR-Asia flights ( I don't know if we are making or loosing money) but are you and others suggesting their is a direct link between UA's lower TRASM's and our EWR-Asia flights? Are people looking at the entire networks of these airlines and dissecting the differences between UA and DL to really nail down why there is almost a 2 cents difference? Or are people assuming there is a direct link between UA's lower TRASM's and UA's EWR-Asia flights simply because DL does not serve this market nonstop on their own metal?

This next statement may seem like I'm throwing shade at DL I can promise you I'm not DL's record speaks for itself and of the US3 DL is the clear market leader by far.

However,,I've noticed the prevailing attitude here on a.netters is if DL can't make money on a flight or isn't on a route then AA and/or UA either shouldn't launch the route or must be loosing money on the flight or route as well.


Forgive me if this is a really stupid way of looking at it, but wouldn't RASM always be hurt negatively by having a larger longhaul network? Revenue is not linear by distance, Delta (and AA) have a larger share of their business tied up in domestic regional flying, with dominant market-share in routes that are RASM cash-cows (short regional flying into hubs).

Unless I missed it that the RASM comparison was purely on TPAC? If then, I can't really say.
 
mpdpilot
Posts: 798
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:49 pm

jayunited wrote:
mpdpilot wrote:
All of this would allow Delta to grow and all that growth would support NRT/HND, ICN, PVG*, PEK*, etc. Not likely to happen anytime soon, but as another poster mentioned, when Delta is bringing in almost 2 cents more per mile than United, does it matter?

In alot of ways Jetblue's presence puts the same damper on DL at JFK that Alaska's presence in SEA does. JFK and SEA airports/cities could handle a DTW size operation if it wasn't for there being two separate carriers. And realistically NYC could handle 3 DTW sized operations if it wasn't for there being 3 separate airports.


You are the second person to mention this and it has me wondering why UA's TRASM's are so much lower than DL and how does UA's lower TRASMs factor into the lack of DL metal on any JFK-Asia route?
Some people have asserted on this and other threads UA is loosing money on our EWR-Asia flights ( I don't know if we are making or loosing money) but are you and others suggesting their is a direct link between UA's lower TRASM's and our EWR-Asia flights? Are people looking at the entire networks of these airlines and dissecting the differences between UA and DL to really nail down why there is almost a 2 cents difference? Or are people assuming there is a direct link between UA's lower TRASM's and UA's EWR-Asia flights simply because DL does not serve this market nonstop on their own metal?

This next statement may seem like I'm throwing shade at DL I can promise you I'm not DL's record speaks for itself and of the US3 DL is the clear market leader by far.

However,,I've noticed the prevailing attitude here on a.netters is if DL can't make money on a flight or isn't on a route then AA and/or UA either shouldn't launch the route or must be loosing money on the flight or route as well.


I can't speak for others, but I by no means think there is a direct connection. The only connection is maybe that Delta is more picky about the flights it operates but I don't think it applies directly to these flights. To your last point, I agree that that is the prevailing attitude on A.net, but I certainly don't think that.

I could have been more clear, but I am basically just saying that Delta has partners offering some service to Asia, and they are making more money per mile than united, so I don't think anyone at Delta is loosing sleep over not operating a flight that their competitor operates (unless that competitor is printing money with the route, then they would be pissed, or they would add it :), but I while I would guess United is making money on EWR-Asia, I don't think they are printing money doing it)

Now us A.net people we are for sure loosing sleep over it :)
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
FSDan
Posts: 2618
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:52 pm

rjmf22 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
rjmf22 wrote:
UA would like to have their JFK slots back, but theyre doing just fine in the NYC area without it, and better than Delta as the numbers prove.


Which numbers are you referring to? I don't doubt that UA makes more money in the NYC area than DL, but I'm unaware of a hub-by-hub profitability breakdown that either UA or DL have provided...


Few posts up:

Total 2018 passengers (domestic & international) at JFK, LGA, and EWR combined:
United 32,734,720
Delta 30,804,043
JetBlue 17,677,527
American 16,672,712

Source: https://www.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-traffic/ATR2018.pdf


Passenger numbers are only part of the picture of how an airline is doing. If UA happened to be selling fares so low that they lost money on their operations, they might be carrying more passengers than other airlines, but that wouldn't mean they are "doing better" than any of them if the other airlines were selling fares that made money. Note that I believe UA's EWR operation is easily more profitable than LGA+JFK for DL, but we don't have the numbers to prove that. Airlines don't publish those types of numbers publicly, so the best we can do is guess.
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FSDan
Posts: 2618
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Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:56 pm

jayunited wrote:
are you and others suggesting their is a direct link between UA's lower TRASM's and our EWR-Asia flights? Are people looking at the entire networks of these airlines and dissecting the differences between UA and DL to really nail down why there is almost a 2 cents difference? Or are people assuming there is a direct link between UA's lower TRASM's and UA's EWR-Asia flights simply because DL does not serve this market nonstop on their own metal?


I don't think anyone is trying to establish a direct link like that. The way I take those statements is that people are saying that even though DL might get grief for not serving NYC-East Asia routes, they obviously aren't getting hurt too badly by it. That has nothing to do with UA's performance on EWR-Asia, just that it hasn't killed DL so far (based on their overall profitability) to not be in that market.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
FSDan
Posts: 2618
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:02 pm

mpdpilot wrote:
While as I said above, DL has some offerings to Asia on its partners flights, the reason DL will not be as big as UA from NYC to Asia is entirely due to a lack of feed.


I don't think that's the case. If you look at the medium-to-major East Coast markets that could be logically connected to East Asia via NYC, DL could get feed for Asia flights from most/all of them. MIA, FLL, TPA, MCO, ATL, CLT, RDU, RIC, ORF, IAD, DCA, BWI, PIT, BUF, and BOS all have morning flights into JFK on DL. Sure, UA from EWR serves many more small markets than does DL from JFK, but what do you think the combined O&D numbers are for GSP, GSO, ALB, PVD, PQI, etc. to East Asia? Not all that much.

DL would do fine with feed. I think it's more a question of competition and a lack of aircraft.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
United1
Posts: 3869
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:31 pm

jayunited wrote:
mpdpilot wrote:
All of this would allow Delta to grow and all that growth would support NRT/HND, ICN, PVG*, PEK*, etc. Not likely to happen anytime soon, but as another poster mentioned, when Delta is bringing in almost 2 cents more per mile than United, does it matter?

In alot of ways Jetblue's presence puts the same damper on DL at JFK that Alaska's presence in SEA does. JFK and SEA airports/cities could handle a DTW size operation if it wasn't for there being two separate carriers. And realistically NYC could handle 3 DTW sized operations if it wasn't for there being 3 separate airports.


You are the second person to mention this and it has me wondering why UA's TRASM's are so much lower than DL and how does UA's lower TRASMs factor into the lack of DL metal on any JFK-Asia route?
Some people have asserted on this and other threads UA is loosing money on our EWR-Asia flights ( I don't know if we are making or loosing money) but are you and others suggesting their is a direct link between UA's lower TRASM's and our EWR-Asia flights? Are people looking at the entire networks of these airlines and dissecting the differences between UA and DL to really nail down why there is almost a 2 cents difference? Or are people assuming there is a direct link between UA's lower TRASM's and UA's EWR-Asia flights simply because DL does not serve this market nonstop on their own metal?

This next statement may seem like I'm throwing shade at DL I can promise you I'm not DL's record speaks for itself and of the US3 DL is the clear market leader by far.

However,,I've noticed the prevailing attitude here on a.netters is if DL can't make money on a flight or isn't on a route then AA and/or UA either shouldn't launch the route or must be loosing money on the flight or route as well.


One thing to add to Jays post is from what I understand you can’t compare TRASM between carriers unless its adjusted for stage length. UAs average stage length is quite a bit longer than either carrier so it makes sense they have a lower TRASM as short haul flights generally generate higher RASM.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
UA857
Posts: 334
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:41 am

Re: NYC-Asia DL vs UA

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:13 pm

Ishrion wrote:
You might find some answers in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1413719

That’s my thread.

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