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Why is BA so cautious?

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:32 pm
by BAorAB
Just noticed that Pakistan officially opened all airspace again after being closed to east/west traffic for 5 months, A NOTAM was sent out sunday this week. I saw that airlines wasted no time jumping on this NOTAM and started flying over Pakistan again especially routes to/from Europe and Delhi. Including Air India, Lufthansa, Virgin and most others. Except BA. They are still taking the detour over the Gulf of Oman and north Arabian sea. Both the daily BA 142/143 and 256/257 continue to detour as of today.

Why is that? Do they have a special exception? Or do they perceive an extra threat? Or simply overly cautious? or Maybe missed the NOTAM?

Even United today announced re-instatement of it's Delhi and Mumbai flights.

Re: Why is BA so cautious?

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:38 pm
by FlyRow
Because planes might already be planned, schedules made and staff placed. it's a thing if planes arrive hours earlier, or later, it requires time to adjust.

it's not a simple snap of the fingers and lets fly straight again. Planning is made in advance, as soon as a new "roster" is made for planes/crew you can see BA flying over pakistan agian.

Re: Why is BA so cautious?

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:55 pm
by BAorAB
FlyRow wrote:
Because planes might already be planned, schedules made and staff placed. it's a thing if planes arrive hours earlier, or later, it requires time to adjust.

it's not a simple snap of the fingers and lets fly straight again. Planning is made in advance, as soon as a new "roster" is made for planes/crew you can see BA flying over pakistan agian.


but as cheap as BA has been behaving in recent years under Alex Cruz you'd think a chance to save 4000 miles daily on fuel wouldn't be missed! And if VS and LH and AI can adjust within hours of the NOTAM you'd think BA could do it within 4 days after them. Something more to this than I think we see.

Re: Why is BA so cautious?

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:06 pm
by Bostrom
BAorAB wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
Because planes might already be planned, schedules made and staff placed. it's a thing if planes arrive hours earlier, or later, it requires time to adjust.

it's not a simple snap of the fingers and lets fly straight again. Planning is made in advance, as soon as a new "roster" is made for planes/crew you can see BA flying over pakistan agian.


but as cheap as BA has been behaving in recent years under Alex Cruz you'd think a chance to save 4000 miles daily on fuel wouldn't be missed! And if VS and LH and AI can adjust within hours of the NOTAM you'd think BA could do it within 4 days after them. Something more to this than I think we see.


Arriving an hour early might be a bigger problem for BA compared to Lufthansa since slots are a bigger issue at BA's hubs?

Re: Why is BA so cautious?

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:19 pm
by GSTBA
The close of Pakistani Airspace effected both BA’s DEL flights and the daily service to BKK. The first flights to return to using Pakistani airspace are as follows

BA009/17JUL LHR-BKK
BA010/18JUL BKK-LHR

BA143/18JUL LHR-DEL
BA142/19JUL DEL-LHR

BA257/18JUL LHR-DEL
BA256/19JUL DEL-LHR

Re: Why is BA so cautious?

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:48 pm
by SelseyBill
BAorAB wrote:
........but as cheap as BA has been behaving in recent years under Alex Cruz........


Cheap??????? Wow....... Have a serious look at the levels of investment BA have input over the last few years, and re-calibrate your use of the word 'cheap'. Believe me, there is nothing 'cheap' about running an airline.

If/when you are a shareholder of whatever company it maybe, you might often initially disagree with decisions made at board level, but thats why you employ a board, to make the best decisions for that company. As one shareholder, I remain very happy with the way BA are being managed at the moment thank you very much, especially given the prevailing levels of competition and daily challenges faced at their main hub...........

Re: Why is BA so cautious?

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:17 pm
by Skyguy
SelseyBill wrote:
Cheap??????? Wow....... Have a serious look at the levels of investment BA have input over the last few years, and re-calibrate your use of the word 'cheap'. Believe me, there is nothing 'cheap' about running an airline.

If/when you are a shareholder of whatever company it maybe, you might often initially disagree with decisions made at board level, but thats why you employ a board, to make the best decisions for that company. As one shareholder, I remain very happy with the way BA are being managed at the moment thank you very much, especially given the prevailing levels of competition and daily challenges faced at their main hub...........


Remember, this is just your opinion and not a general statement of fact. Your experience as a shareholder and your experience as a passenger are wholly different, and in the case of BA, while they have continued to invest sums of money into the airline, the sums are not unusual or out-of-line compared to other comparable carriers, some whom are investing even more. Just look at some of BA's 777 WT+ and J seats, hardly impressive given what others are offering. So, while you may be elated at return on investment as a shareholder, don't equate that to mean that passengers are receiving an equally thrilling experience from BA.

Re: Why is BA so cautious?

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:03 pm
by BA777FO
Skyguy wrote:
SelseyBill wrote:
Cheap??????? Wow....... Have a serious look at the levels of investment BA have input over the last few years, and re-calibrate your use of the word 'cheap'. Believe me, there is nothing 'cheap' about running an airline.

If/when you are a shareholder of whatever company it maybe, you might often initially disagree with decisions made at board level, but thats why you employ a board, to make the best decisions for that company. As one shareholder, I remain very happy with the way BA are being managed at the moment thank you very much, especially given the prevailing levels of competition and daily challenges faced at their main hub...........


Remember, this is just your opinion and not a general statement of fact. Your experience as a shareholder and your experience as a passenger are wholly different, and in the case of BA, while they have continued to invest sums of money into the airline, the sums are not unusual or out-of-line compared to other comparable carriers, some whom are investing even more. Just look at some of BA's 777 WT+ and J seats, hardly impressive given what others are offering. So, while you may be elated at return on investment as a shareholder, don't equate that to mean that passengers are receiving an equally thrilling experience from BA.


That's why those 777s are being earmarked to be among the first getting retrofitted with the new Club suite. BA suffered years of underinvestment under Willie Walsh and then Keith Williams, Cruz is putting it right for the most part although some failings still exist (notably IT failures) and these might be exposed in the not too distant future.

Regarding the routings, BA was one of the first carriers to stop overflying the area of Ukranian airspace that the Malaysian aircraft was shot down over. There is a very thorough intelligence-led process to security and just because it is notamed as open doesn't necessarily mean it will be immediately used. I understand BA is now flightplanning through Pakistan however.

Re: Why is BA so cautious?

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:18 pm
by SelseyBill
Skyguy wrote:
SelseyBill wrote:
Cheap??????? Wow....... Have a serious look at the levels of investment BA have input over the last few years, and re-calibrate your use of the word 'cheap'. Believe me, there is nothing 'cheap' about running an airline.

If/when you are a shareholder of whatever company it maybe, you might often initially disagree with decisions made at board level, but thats why you employ a board, to make the best decisions for that company. As one shareholder, I remain very happy with the way BA are being managed at the moment thank you very much, especially given the prevailing levels of competition and daily challenges faced at their main hub...........


Remember, this is just your opinion and not a general statement of fact. Your experience as a shareholder and your experience as a passenger are wholly different, and in the case of BA, while they have continued to invest sums of money into the airline, the sums are not unusual or out-of-line compared to other comparable carriers, some whom are investing even more. Just look at some of BA's 777 WT+ and J seats, hardly impressive given what others are offering. So, while you may be elated at return on investment as a shareholder, don't equate that to mean that passengers are receiving an equally thrilling experience from BA.


No, profits and returns are a statement of fact; (or should be!). Peoples individual opinions on BA's level of service are subjective. I am an IAG shareholder, but when I fly; I choose the best bang for my buck, and in recent times to the USA, that has been DL. I would like it to have been BA, but DL won my tender.

BA knows full well what sells and at what price and on what date. They know that if customers don't like their service, they go to the competition. BA have become real experts at yield management, and they know what sells at what price. If BA wanted to offer a excellent F product they easily could, but they know 'their' market, and just how much their clients are willing to pay for each seat.

I just totally reject the initial thrust of this thread that BA are 'cheap'. They charge what they know they can charge; its called knowing your market; but it certainly isn't 'cheap' in the context that was originally intended.

BA have had to continually adjust their 'bottom-end' product to address LCC carriers, and other 'pricier' markets attacked by the ME3; its a miracle in many ways that they have survived at all...........

Re: Why is BA so cautious?

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:22 pm
by BAorAB
Bostrom wrote:
BAorAB wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
Because planes might already be planned, schedules made and staff placed. it's a thing if planes arrive hours earlier, or later, it requires time to adjust.

it's not a simple snap of the fingers and lets fly straight again. Planning is made in advance, as soon as a new "roster" is made for planes/crew you can see BA flying over pakistan agian.


but as cheap as BA has been behaving in recent years under Alex Cruz you'd think a chance to save 4000 miles daily on fuel wouldn't be missed! And if VS and LH and AI can adjust within hours of the NOTAM you'd think BA could do it within 4 days after them. Something more to this than I think we see.


Arriving an hour early might be a bigger problem for BA compared to Lufthansa since slots are a bigger issue at BA's hubs?


Then simply take off an hour later? better than routing an extra 1000 miles surely?

Re: Why is BA so cautious?

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:24 pm
by BAorAB
SelseyBill wrote:
BAorAB wrote:
........but as cheap as BA has been behaving in recent years under Alex Cruz........


Cheap??????? Wow....... Have a serious look at the levels of investment BA have input over the last few years, and re-calibrate your use of the word 'cheap'. Believe me, there is nothing 'cheap' about running an airline.

If/when you are a shareholder of whatever company it maybe, you might often initially disagree with decisions made at board level, but thats why you employ a board, to make the best decisions for that company. As one shareholder, I remain very happy with the way BA are being managed at the moment thank you very much, especially given the prevailing levels of competition and daily challenges faced at their main hub...........


go look at the state of their lounges at LHR then compare to others and charging for everything in Euro traveler. Doesn't get cheaper than that! and clubworld upgrade that's 10 years too late.

Re: Why is BA so cautious?

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:34 pm
by FlyRow
BAorAB wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
BAorAB wrote:

but as cheap as BA has been behaving in recent years under Alex Cruz you'd think a chance to save 4000 miles daily on fuel wouldn't be missed! And if VS and LH and AI can adjust within hours of the NOTAM you'd think BA could do it within 4 days after them. Something more to this than I think we see.


Arriving an hour early might be a bigger problem for BA compared to Lufthansa since slots are a bigger issue at BA's hubs?


Then simply take off an hour later? better than routing an extra 1000 miles surely?


You know there is a thing in the world named slots? Simply taking of and landing whenever you want at a hugely busy airport as LHR isn't a thing. They plan ahead, as I said in my first post.

Things are different for other airlines, or airports, plus you don't know what there rosters or flexibilities are, plus it's the middle of the summer peak, so a spare aircraft to "Just Fly Earlier" might not be avaiable.

Don't think aviation is picking up a spare plane out of the closet, driving it to a gate , driving it to a runway at your conveniant time and flying it to a airport and land again when you want to.

Re: Why is BA so cautious?

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:19 pm
by Skyguy
Actually, BA256 DEL-LHR changed from 10:20AM dep.- 15:20PM arr., to 11:40AM dep.-18:10 arr., 3 days ago, and then 1 day ago it was changed back to the original 10:20AM departure, this is for a July 28th flight. A bit strange as the new timing meant the flight left 1:20 hrs later but arrived 2:50 hrs later, but this seems to have reverted to the original timing. This 2:50 hrs delay in arrival in LHR probably meant a lot of passengers on connecting flights would have missed their original connections, therefore creating disruptions etc. Anyway, if anything, with Pakistani airspace opening up, flights may land earlier than previously scheduled.

Re: Why is BA so cautious?

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:16 pm
by StTim
At a crowded airport like LHR having a plane arrive early can mean there is no available gate for them. Sitting on a plane waiting for a gate is very frustrating and annoying. I know this exact situation has happened to me.

Re: Why is BA so cautious?

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:25 pm
by SelseyBill
BAorAB wrote:
SelseyBill wrote:
BAorAB wrote:
........but as cheap as BA has been behaving in recent years under Alex Cruz........


Cheap??????? Wow....... Have a serious look at the levels of investment BA have input over the last few years, and re-calibrate your use of the word 'cheap'. Believe me, there is nothing 'cheap' about running an airline.

If/when you are a shareholder of whatever company it maybe, you might often initially disagree with decisions made at board level, but thats why you employ a board, to make the best decisions for that company. As one shareholder, I remain very happy with the way BA are being managed at the moment thank you very much, especially given the prevailing levels of competition and daily challenges faced at their main hub...........


go look at the state of their lounges at LHR then compare to others and charging for everything in Euro traveler. Doesn't get cheaper than that! and clubworld upgrade that's 10 years too late.


.......Do you not realise that maybe just maybe, BA know the shortcomings in their own product, they know their own weaknesses, and are content with the revenue they earn from the products they offer? They know very well what investment is required and when to invest, and they'll do it when the time is right. If it doesn't suit you, fine; go choose another airline like I do. I know what I get when I fly BA and how much it will cost. It is not being 'cheap' to carefully plan your investment, its called being smart. BA/IAG have just announced huge investments in new aircraft orders, so their next round of spend may well be to improve facilities, who knows.