ArchGuy1
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A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:03 pm

Why was the A380 NEO never developed even though it would have been a more efficient version of the A380, thus allowing it to remain in production for years to come.
 
rajincajun01
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:06 pm

Please see any other the other 20 A380 threads covering this.
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ssteve
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:06 pm

Because "allowing it to remain in production" was no given.
 
johns624
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:15 pm

Short version--you don't develop a new aircraft for one airline.
 
strfyr51
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:16 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Why was the A380 NEO never developed even though it would have been a more efficient version of the A380, thus allowing it to remain in production for years to come.

Airbus needed New, and more efficient engine. And? They couldn't get them since NOBODY was going to build an engine Just for that airplane.
Rolls and Pratt were their only choices and Pratt was doing a LOT of business with Boeing on the KC-46. Rolls is on the B787.
It probably wasn't worth the effort in the time frame. for a "one off" engine for a limited run Airplane. GE was out of the question ..
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:36 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
NOBODY was going to build an engine Just for that airplane.


Why can't we bolt GE90s on the A380 wings, move the engines forward and upward to maintain ground clearance, and program something that keeps the aircraft more or less stable?
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
WayexTDI
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:38 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
NOBODY was going to build an engine Just for that airplane.


Why can't we bolt GE90s on the A380 wings, move the engines forward and upward to maintain ground clearance, and program something that keeps the aircraft more or less stable?

Doesn't GE and Boeing have an exclusivity contract for the GE90 & 777?
 
jghealey
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:38 pm

It can't remain in production for years to come if nobody wants it
 
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phlsfo
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:58 pm

This totally would have saved the program and DL would have ordered 100 of them for their ATL-India, CVG-Asia, and SLC-Africa routes...

In all seriousness, if they felt that they could have made money doing so and and engine manufacturer could make money doing so, then they would have. They decided that they couldn't, so they aren't.
 
2175301
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:14 pm

Development cost by far outweighed the potential return due to the limited market.

While there can be reasons for doing things that knowingly loose money. There was clearly insufficient customer demand for the A380 NEO.

Most companies refrain from doing that for very large and expensive projects. Even R&D is expected to overall pay for itself (8 of 10 test projects will lose money, and the other 2 will make enough to pay for the failed experiments).

Have a great day.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:28 pm

phlsfo wrote:
This totally would have saved the program and DL would have ordered 100 of them for their ATL-India, CVG-Asia, and SLC-Africa routes...

In all seriousness, if they felt that they could have made money doing so and and engine manufacturer could make money doing so, then they would have. They decided that they couldn't, so they aren't.

Lmao this was actually funny. Well played. And also don’t forget LAX-ATL :)
 
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Revelation
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:35 pm

2175301 wrote:
Development cost by far outweighed the potential return due to the limited market.

While there can be reasons for doing things that knowingly loose money. There was clearly insufficient customer demand for the A380 NEO.

Most companies refrain from doing that for very large and expensive projects. Even R&D is expected to overall pay for itself (8 of 10 test projects will lose money, and the other 2 will make enough to pay for the failed experiments).

Overall I agree, but would not use the word "clearly".

It seemed to me that Airbus and RR were darn close to launching something like T7000 on A380 in the 2014-6 time frame.

We know it could have been made to work pretty cheaply since TXWB was flight tested on A380.

I know Airbus wanted more than one customer and a bigger order book, yet I still wonder why EK didn't pony up the R&D funds in exchange for some form of equity.

Maybe one of the great "what if" aviation questions of the 21st century...
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IWMBH
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:35 pm

Are we seriously discussing this again? Ive the feeling I've seen hundreds of these treads. The A380 is dead because it was a plane that was too late and served are very limited market. A neo version wasn't going to change that.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:58 pm

This is going to sound insane but I foresee that Airbus will actually launch an A380neo somewhere within the next 5 years, for deliveries within the next decade.
I think that it will take commercial aircraft to the next level and prepare Airbus and the industry for a new generation of aircraft.
I also foresee that its fuel burn will be about 50% lower. Probably about the same as a B77W.
Most changes would not be visible at a glance but the manuals are going to get a lot thicker.

I could be wrong of course.

In another thread, someone mentionned ground clearance compared to newer widebodies. The A380 is an aircraft with a lot of margin for improvement despite already leading in efficiency.

So yes, if Airbus chooses for innovation, we will see an A380neo although it may be named the A370 or A390.
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:59 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
This is going to sound insane but I foresee that Airbus will actually launch an A380neo somewhere within the next 5 years, for deliveries within the next decade.
I think that it will take commercial aircraft to the next level and prepare Airbus and the industry for a new generation of aircraft.
I also foresee that its fuel burn will be about 50% lower. Probably about the same as a B77W.
Most changes would not be visible at a glance but the manuals are going to get a lot thicker.

I could be wrong of course.

In another thread, someone mentionned ground clearance compared to newer widebodies. The A380 is an aircraft with a lot of margin for improvement despite already leading in efficiency.

So yes, if Airbus chooses for innovation, we will see an A380neo although it may be named the A370 or A390.

Or the A360
 
strfyr51
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:11 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
NOBODY was going to build an engine Just for that airplane.


Why can't we bolt GE90s on the A380 wings, move the engines forward and upward to maintain ground clearance, and program something that keeps the aircraft more or less stable?

Doesn't GE and Boeing have an exclusivity contract for the GE90 & 777?



GE wanted exclusivity on the B777, they already have it on the B737 but not on the B787 as Rolls has a share of the fleet. engines67 based KC-46 has Pratt Engines installed . If GE were to allow the GE90 to go to the A380 or any other Airbus? Then Boeing would have them over a Barrel. And I mean Big Time!! Airbus can go to Rolls or PWA for Large engines, if they want Large engines.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:14 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
This is going to sound insane but I foresee that Airbus will actually launch an A380neo somewhere within the next 5 years, for deliveries within the next decade..


Wow :shock: , that is an optimistic view. I hope so, but I would not even bet a bottle of whiskey over it.
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WayexTDI
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:18 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:

Why can't we bolt GE90s on the A380 wings, move the engines forward and upward to maintain ground clearance, and program something that keeps the aircraft more or less stable?

Doesn't GE and Boeing have an exclusivity contract for the GE90 & 777?



GE wanted exclusivity on the B777, they already have it on the B737 but not on the B787 as Rolls has a share of the fleet. engines67 based KC-46 has Pratt Engines installed . If GE were to allow the GE90 to go to the A380 or any other Airbus? Then Boeing would have them over a Barrel. And I mean Big Time!! Airbus can go to Rolls or PWA for Large engines, if they want Large engines.

Maybe wrong words used originally.
What I meant was, didn't GE & Boeing sign an exclusivity agreement that the GE90 would only go on the 777 (or maybe other Boeing aircraft), and that it could not be offered to any other aircraft manufacturer?
Having a family of engines on different platform is rather common (see the LEAP with the A320 & 737); but the GE90 is only on the 777. That was my train of thoughts.
 
triple3driver
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:24 pm

The A380 could have been a success if it wasn't so comprised, being designed as a shrink of a larger model. A proper NEO with any hope of success would need to change that and development dollars would be astronomical compared to other reengine programs
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:49 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
What I meant was, didn't GE & Boeing sign an exclusivity agreement that the GE90 would only go on the 777 (or maybe other Boeing aircraft), and that it could not be offered to any other aircraft manufacturer?
Having a family of engines on different platform is rather common (see the LEAP with the A320 & 737); but the GE90 is only on the 777. That was my train of thoughts.

Wiki sez:

In 1999, Boeing announced an agreement with General Electric, beating out rival proposals.[49] Under the deal with General Electric, Boeing agreed to only offer GE90 engines on new 777 versions.[49]

And my recollection agrees that it goes in this direction: Boeing will only offer GE90 for 77W/L/F but GE can offer GE90 to other vendors.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090414031 ... hoice.html says:

Neither Boeing nor GE will give details about the contribution the engine manufacturer agreed to make to Boeing's 777 development programme to secure its sole-source position, but it has been described as significant. This is in addition to the estimated $500 million that GE will spend to develop the GE90-115B that will power the new models.

GE paid its way on to the 777, but IIRC did not give up rights to power other platforms. Of course there is no other platform with needs in this size class.
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filipinoavgeek
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:20 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Doesn't GE and Boeing have an exclusivity contract for the GE90 & 777?

What I meant was, didn't GE & Boeing sign an exclusivity agreement that the GE90 would only go on the 777 (or maybe other Boeing aircraft), and that it could not be offered to any other aircraft manufacturer?


I could have sworn I read somewhere here that there was a proposal to put them on an Airbus aircraft (can't remember if it was the A330 or the A340) and either Airbus or GE themselves said no.
 
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SilverwingSpttr
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:51 pm

The A380's problems cannot be solved with reengaging it. Its problem is how many engines it has. It would've been a vastly more successful program if 2000s engine tech was where it is now. A 2-engined GE9X powered A380 might've had more looks from more airlines.
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:29 am

filipinoavgeek wrote:
I could have sworn I read somewhere here that there was a proposal to put them on an Airbus aircraft (can't remember if it was the A330 or the A340) and either Airbus or GE themselves said no.

John Leahy said in his post retirment interviews that GE offered to pay the cost of putting the GE90 V1 (i.e. not the 110+K lb/ft model) onto A330, and Airbus refused the offer.
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speedbird52
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:35 am

Dutchy wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
This is going to sound insane but I foresee that Airbus will actually launch an A380neo somewhere within the next 5 years, for deliveries within the next decade..


Wow :shock: , that is an optimistic view. I hope so, but I would not even bet a bottle of whiskey over it.

My bet is that we will see a sharp spike in demand for VLAs (Maybe not A380 size, perhaps 747-8 size) in the next 15-20 years, and we will have a clean sheet A380. Boeing will probably make do with the 77-9 or if they really need to 77J.
 
acjbbj
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:53 am

Could an admin PLEASE lock this thing?!
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AAlaxfan
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:57 am

DylanHarvey wrote:
phlsfo wrote:
This totally would have saved the program and DL would have ordered 100 of them for their ATL-India, CVG-Asia, and SLC-Africa routes...

In all seriousness, if they felt that they could have made money doing so and and engine manufacturer could make money doing so, then they would have. They decided that they couldn't, so they aren't.

Lmao this was actually funny. Well played. And also don’t forget LAX-ATL :)

What about DTW-xxx?
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FlyHappy
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:24 am

A380NEO = "Not Ever Offered" .

this will never stop, will it?
Hey, A380 fanatics - there's too small a market for 500, 600, 800 or more pax aircraft. Its a simple reality, okay ?
 
cledaybuck
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:48 am

flyingturtle wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
NOBODY was going to build an engine Just for that airplane.


Why can't we bolt GE90s on the A380 wings, move the engines forward and upward to maintain ground clearance, and program something that keeps the aircraft more or less stable?

I like your style. A380 Max!
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:15 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Why was the A380 NEO never developed

Why can't Airbus fanboys realise how bad the original A380 design was?

It was extremely inefficient for its size. Had it been designed properly the CASM would have been 20+% better.

The A380 total cabin area is effectively a 787-10 on the lower deck and a 787-9 on the upper deck. Yet the A380 offers no weight saving for the efficient cross section as it weighs more than two 787-10's added together
 
acjbbj
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:37 am

Could the mods PLEASE lock this thing?!
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EWRamp
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:54 am

cledaybuck wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
NOBODY was going to build an engine Just for that airplane.


Why can't we bolt GE90s on the A380 wings, move the engines forward and upward to maintain ground clearance, and program something that keeps the aircraft more or less stable?

I like your style. A380 Max!


Correction.... A380-8200
 
9Patch
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:03 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
This is going to sound insane...

It does.

I could be wrong of course.

You are.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:05 am

acjbbj wrote:
Could the mods PLEASE lock this thing?!

acjbbj wrote:
Could an admin PLEASE lock this thing?!

See the little triangle shaped icon with an exclamation mark next to each post? That is the report feature. You can click on that to report a post to the moderators. It works wonders.

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ctrabs0114
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:35 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
This is going to sound insane but I foresee that Airbus will actually launch an A380neo somewhere within the next 5 years, for deliveries within the next decade.
I think that it will take commercial aircraft to the next level and prepare Airbus and the industry for a new generation of aircraft.
I also foresee that its fuel burn will be about 50% lower. Probably about the same as a B77W.
Most changes would not be visible at a glance but the manuals are going to get a lot thicker.

I could be wrong of course.

In another thread, someone mentionned ground clearance compared to newer widebodies. The A380 is an aircraft with a lot of margin for improvement despite already leading in efficiency.

So yes, if Airbus chooses for innovation, we will see an A380neo although it may be named the A370 or A390.


With all due respect, the idea of an A380neo is insane. The market, in my opinion, has pretty much soured on quad-jets like the A380 and 747-8 as passenger jets - and, if you want to take it a step further, the A340 - as is evidenced by planned retirements of the A388 within the next few years (AF comes to mind, though that's more of a subfleet reduction rather than a full elimination). I can't see how fuel burn would be lower for an A380neo quad jet compared to a 77W twin-jet.

The reality is that most airlines are opting for the 77W/359/789 to replace the 744/388 fleets. Let's just say that there's little to no chance of ever seeing a 380neo.
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Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:38 am

To OP, there are few threads on same topic. Please PM me on sideline for assistance.

Topic locked.
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