Boof02671
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:11 pm

Blame Wall Street, not the airlines
 
strfyr51
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:18 pm

enilria wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
flybry wrote:
The US carriers are being pathetic. They get subsidies too!!!!

No they don’t.

#1 : They explicitly took subsidies in the form of loan guarantees from the Federal Govt as recently as 2002.
#2 : The USA is one of the few countries in the world with government owned airports, whereas in most countries the airports must operate as a business. That is not the case in the USA. In the cases where the airports lose money it is because they are charging airlines rates below their cost which *IS* a government subsidy. In fact, the Partnership for Open Skies accuses the UAE of doing the exact same thing with its government owned airport in DXB. Airport-World magazine says "the majority of airports lose money". http://www.airport-world.com/features/e ... ility.html

yeah, and you too must be from the ME3. will you give it a break? Your're losing your shirts and couldn't compete head up if you TRIED!! I couldn't care LESS what the US3 do to you.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:25 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Time to openly call out the State owned Chinese carriers and the massive subsidies they get. US3 will be quickly implicated. China will probably retaliate in contrast to Qatar et al


Delta -- the most outspoken US airline against alleged ME3 subsidies, is actually receiving subsidies by being part owner of China Eastern Airlines. So they won't be calling out the Chinese carriers -- hypocrisy at it's finest.
 
jasoncrh
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:38 pm

The us carriers compete just fine. They’re solidly profitable, healthy businesses. Just reported the best financial results ever b



quote="Capt.Fantastic"]The US3 can compete, if they upped their game, offered superior hard and soft products and became passenger focused - but that would cut into their profits... so, instead, they launch this propaganda campaign accusing EK and QR of taking American jobs: and, like little spoiled brats, they whine about the big bad foreigners not playing fair (pouty face). Gimmie a break.
I actually wish the ME3 flew domestic, maybe that would entice US carriers to halt their race to the bottom.[/quote]
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:13 am

Q: Where's the outrage of Chinese State owned airlines?
A: The Chinese Airlines are restricted in adding new routes to the US without stringent approvals from the US Government. However, the ME3 have unlimited access and rights to fly to the US, including 5th freedoms. The Chinese have not signed an Open Skies agreement, the ME3 have. The spirit of allowing foreign airlines unlimited access to the US is based on them competing on a level playing field, I.E. no government backing. The US carries won't complain against the Chinese, or other state-owned airlines without Open Skies, because they are already shielded by the Dept of State. The US carriers are free to petition if they feel the current agreements aren't adhered just as ME3 are free to petition if/ when they feel the US carries are transgressing.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:24 am

Guess the meeting did not go very well.

Trump just sided with Qatar over US airline CEOs in the nastiest battle in the aviation industry
https://www.businessinsider.in/trump-ju ... 300792.cms

=

Basically told US3 to go pound sand and if they have a complaint file it via the DOT (which wont do anything as Air Italy is in full compliance with ownership and bilateral agreements)
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:35 am

I just don't see what upside there is to wasting political capital on QR/IG, both hemorrhaging money. The consumer is certainly not on the US3' side, and now it sounds like neither is the government, so well done all around.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Yonderlust
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:45 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:

Can't we just all be happy that all the sides are coming together to talk and try to come to a compromise that everyone can accept? That's how things should be. Sit down, discuss your differences and come up with an amicable solution. There is no need to bash or belittle anyone involved with the talks - Be it the airlines or President Trump.


Not considering who is involved. No.

Great, then let's burn the place down. Screw diplomacy.
 
Yonderlust
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:50 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
I just don't see what upside there is to wasting political capital on QR/IG, both hemorrhaging money. The consumer is certainly not on the US3' side, and now it sounds like neither is the government, so well done all around.

Well, there are other more pressing matters in the ME and we need as many countries in that region as allies as possible to avoid war with Iran. Having closer ties with Qatar Airlines can't hurt since they are heavily influenced by their own government. Who knows, perhaps this meeting is about more than just airline revenues.
 
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scbriml
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JRe: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:05 am

LAXintl wrote:
Guess the meeting did not go very well.

Trump just sided with Qatar over US airline CEOs in the nastiest battle in the aviation industry
https://www.businessinsider.in/trump-ju ... 300792.cms

=

Basically told US3 to go pound sand and if they have a complaint file it via the DOT (which wont do anything as Air Italy is in full compliance with ownership and bilateral agreements)


Basically, US Government interests in Qatar trump (no pun) US3’s petty complaints.
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bgm
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:43 am

LAXintl wrote:
Guess the meeting did not go very well.

Trump just sided with Qatar over US airline CEOs in the nastiest battle in the aviation industry
https://www.businessinsider.in/trump-ju ... 300792.cms

=

Basically told US3 to go pound sand and if they have a complaint file it via the DOT (which wont do anything as Air Italy is in full compliance with ownership and bilateral agreements)


How deliciously satisfying. They did not have a solid case, it was wrapped in hypocrisy (Chinese carriers anyone?). I don't often agree with Trump but he was right to go tell them to F off. :lol:
████ ███ █ ███████ ██ █ █████ ██ ████ [redacted]
 
spannacomo
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:47 am

At the end what is emerging is that this brainless campaign against QR/IG was conceived by AA and UA while DL was in only because it suited them, but they do not care enough to face a meeting with their counterparts in front of the president. It is no coincidence that the best managed company is the one caring less about this complaint. And it is no coincidence that the worst managed company who could have benefited from an alliance with IG, is the one caring more. On one side you see DL having no problem to invest their money in the most subsidized company of the universe (AZ) to exploit the alliance benefits, on the other side you see AA complaining about a european potential ally (IG), while at the same time losing AB as an ally and therefore needing at least a replacement. Than you look at the stock values and you understand why. I think this is more stupidity on AA side than smartness on DL.
 
chonetsao
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:08 am

spannacomo wrote:
At the end what is emerging is that this brainless campaign against QR/IG was conceived by AA and UA while DL was in only because it suited them, but they do not care enough to face a meeting with their counterparts in front of the president. It is no coincidence that the best managed company is the one caring less about this complaint. And it is no coincidence that the worst managed company who could have benefited from an alliance with IG, is the one caring more. On one side you see DL having no problem to invest their money in the most subsidized company of the universe (AZ) to exploit the alliance benefits, on the other side you see AA complaining about a european potential ally (IG), while at the same time losing AB as an ally and therefore needing at least a replacement. Than you look at the stock values and you understand why. I think this is more stupidity on AA side than smartness on DL.


You are absolutely right. And I think Doug Parker is such a veil person.

So with the so called competition from QR/IG, AA added European routes and provided more jobs to American people.

With the heavily subsided Chinese airlines AA lost market share and cancelled two vital routes of ORD-PEK/PVG, American lost jobs and opportunity.

And here we are, Doug Parker is pointing fingers to QR/IG for 'American workers security' while in reality AA added jobs to Europe due to limited competition, while Doug Parker was so blind to admit Chinese competition caused American ACTUALLY LOST JOBs.
 
bgm
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:38 am

chonetsao wrote:
spannacomo wrote:
At the end what is emerging is that this brainless campaign against QR/IG was conceived by AA and UA while DL was in only because it suited them, but they do not care enough to face a meeting with their counterparts in front of the president. It is no coincidence that the best managed company is the one caring less about this complaint. And it is no coincidence that the worst managed company who could have benefited from an alliance with IG, is the one caring more. On one side you see DL having no problem to invest their money in the most subsidized company of the universe (AZ) to exploit the alliance benefits, on the other side you see AA complaining about a european potential ally (IG), while at the same time losing AB as an ally and therefore needing at least a replacement. Than you look at the stock values and you understand why. I think this is more stupidity on AA side than smartness on DL.


You are absolutely right. And I think Doug Parker is such a veil person.

So with the so called competition from QR/IG, AA added European routes and provided more jobs to American people.

With the heavily subsided Chinese airlines AA lost market share and cancelled two vital routes of ORD-PEK/PVG, American lost jobs and opportunity.

And here we are, Doug Parker is pointing fingers to QR/IG for 'American workers security' while in reality AA added jobs to Europe due to limited competition, while Doug Parker was so blind to admit Chinese competition caused American ACTUALLY LOST JOBs.


He's a general all-round piss-poor CEO. Look at the state of AA these days. It's like he's trying to out-do Smisek-era UA.
████ ███ █ ███████ ██ █ █████ ██ ████ [redacted]
 
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Revelation
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:52 am

strfyr51 wrote:
So? Now they've gone to Trump.. Ain't this something? So ? How much did the Emir offer Trump to set this UP? And? What's Pence's Take in this?

I'd say at least ten percent, same if not more for Kushner.
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smartplane
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:05 pm

enilria wrote:
Delta didn’t send anyone interestingly. This is purportedly about Air Italy, of course Delta is poised to own part of AZ and is already in a JV with them.

And perhaps another reason, despite the public Delta rhetoric, SkyTeam has been courting EK/FZ for over a decade. Could Delta absence be a sign of progress?
 
Ellofiend
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:23 pm

For those arguing on the topic of Government subsidies, most of you have seen it as a black and white deal when in fact it is not, the subsidies me and you have an issue (or not, that's fine) with is in relation to the support donated by the governing institutions of the respective airlines country of origin that is used to prop up aviation corporations when it is not in the interest of the public (of the nation or otherwise affected) Consumers dictate whether the airline should stay or go, not the government or the corporation though it should be noted that un-fair competition as claimed by the US carriers does not result in the consumers wish being carried out to an ethical degree (the area of dispute) Should I say, Chapter 11 is protection against dissolution of a corporation and at the expense of the taxpayer (Something I have a problem with considering the clear degree to which certain protected carriers repay their protections and consumers and the wasteful expense of propping up airlines that were simply not competitive enough to survive) The ME3 has their oil-rich princes donating large sums to the airline to support several un-economical businesses in order to feed the middle-east with needed tourists and business people, the competition is therefore taken outside of competiting airlines jurisdiction and does in my mind play to the US carriers claim because once the princes run out of money (albeit not for a while) or the middle east loses its shine the consumers will be ultimately in a very bad place
 
Boof02671
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:25 pm

Chapter 11 doesn’t cost the tax payers.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:23 pm

jetblastdubai wrote:
enilria wrote:

—-President Donald Trump is poised to meet with the heads of American Airlines Group Inc., United Airlines Holdings Inc. and Qatar Airways to discuss competition issues amid a long-running feud pitting the U.S. carriers against their Persian Gulf rivals, people familiar with the matter said.


What's there to lose by simply having a face-to-face meeting? Have any of the US3 had direct conversations with QR? Has QR ever laid out their case with documents or has everyone just been taking their word for things in the past? Other than having a very inexpensive labor pool to pick from in DOH (or UAE for that matter) I'd be very interested to hear what the US3 have to show as proof that there is substantial Qatar govt. support.

If everyone is meeting with the President, you can bet they'll all have their respective ducks in a row.

For those open-minded ones on there that have already determined the outcome of the meeting, I'd recommend waiting for the meeting to actually occur first.


That will depend if everyone has their "ducks in order" The US 3's ducks so far have been they are being unfair. They are getting subsidies. Let see The US airlines & Boeing get all kinds of localized & federal subsidies. The airlines from Airports tax breaks and US bankruptcies. Boeing from the US government funded NASA programs. So as I see it they are cheating on both sides. So how about the US side spend a little to up their game. Like meals that look edible, including coach class. FA's on international route that are so jaded it shows in their treatment of passengers.
I love most of my US airlines (Can't like everyone) but grow up and compete on service and you could change the tide. Quit spending money buy cutting tickets to below cost on routes when a new competitor in the US adds a route. Quit using other routes to prop the loss up till the other airlines pulls out. Then spend that money to improve your international service and grow up.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:25 pm

You do realize SIL Kushner was bailed out by the Qatar Government?
 
flybry
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:58 pm

bgm wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Guess the meeting did not go very well.

Trump just sided with Qatar over US airline CEOs in the nastiest battle in the aviation industry
https://www.businessinsider.in/trump-ju ... 300792.cms

=

Basically told US3 to go pound sand and if they have a complaint file it via the DOT (which wont do anything as Air Italy is in full compliance with ownership and bilateral agreements)


How deliciously satisfying. They did not have a solid case, it was wrapped in hypocrisy (Chinese carriers anyone?). I don't often agree with Trump but he was right to go tell them to F off. :lol:


I agree with you 100%!!!
 
flybry
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:08 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Chapter 11 doesn’t cost the tax payers.


What about all the courts, judges and government lawyers who deal with bankruptcy cases? The tax payers pay for all of that. And it’s not cheap.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:09 pm

They pay court costs and filing fees, and those judges are there anyhow, they don’t hire a judge to hear a case then lay-off them off

There are no government lawyers required in court.

Bankruptcy is the company, creditors and lawyers for employees.

What are you talking about?
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:48 am

Yonderlust wrote:
Well, there are other more pressing matters in the ME and we need as many countries in that region as allies as possible to avoid war with Iran. Having closer ties with Qatar Airlines can't hurt since they are heavily influenced by their own government. Who knows, perhaps this meeting is about more than just airline revenues.


The incredibly twisted irony of this is that the Saudis have led the blockade against Qatar so the Saudis are enemy No.1 for the Qataris while Iran has been an absolutely critical ally for Qatar, airspace wise but also for defeating the blockade.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:17 am

enilria wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
A loan that was paid back under the ATSB program is not a subsidy, the airlines borrowed the money from the banks, paid it back a loan guarantee doesn’t cost the government money. For example US Airways borrowed the money from Citibank

The Airlines pay rent and landing fees. They dont operate for free and the airlines even help fund and underwrite airline bonds.

>A loan that was paid back under the ATSB program is not a subsidy, the airlines borrowed the money from the banks, paid it back a loan guarantee doesn’t cost the government money.
Oh then the ME3 aren't subsidized either. Getting low interest loans through government backed borrowing is one of the complaints lodged against the ME3.
>airlines even help fund and underwrite airline bonds
To me it isn't surprising that airlines have to fund their own bonds.
>The Airlines pay rent and landing fees.
The fees are supposed to be set to result in the airport breaking even or making a profit. That is what a capitalist enterprise looks like. When they are set below cost and the government makes up the difference it is a government subsidy.
bgm wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
A loan that was paid back under the ATSB program is not a subsidy, the airlines borrowed the money from the banks, paid it back a loan guarantee doesn’t cost the government money. For example US Airways borrowed the money from Citibank

The Airlines pay rent and landing fees. They dont operate for free and the airlines even help fund and underwrite airline bonds.


Chapter 11.

Not unique to just US airlines, but it's most definitely a 'get out of jail free' card when the US3 were deeply in the red. Just ask the employees of the US carriers whoost so much after the spate of post 9/11 ch11 bankruptcies.

Another good point. The US3 pushing their pension obligations on the U.S. government (PBGC) is potentially explicit subsidy and I'm not aware of any other country that has allowed that for their airlines. The PBGC is massively underfunded and the GAO says it needs taxpayer funds to save it from insolvency. They are $50 billion in the red. https://www.gao.gov/highrisk/pension_be ... _did_study

Just So you realize? The PBCG has far more than just the airlines pensions parked there. And? It's Not Free to the airlines. United had to fork over $2B+ to the PBGC. So they didn't get off all that cheap. But they did get the liability off of their books.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:19 am

Now? United might not have a Pension Lkability But they're forking over 'oodles" of Bucks in profit sharing to the employees.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:19 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Chapter 11 is a bankruptcy law, it costs airlines millions in fees to file, and every country has their own version of it.

Isn’t Alitalia in bankruptcy, gee they are in Italy.

https://bankruptcy.laws.com/international-laws

Funny this article lists numerous countries with bankruptcy laws.

https://www.ifo.de/DocDL/dicereport106-forum2.pdf

Concessions, elimination and reduction of debt and Debtor in Possession financing pays for it, not the Federal Government.

And yes other airlines who are outside of the US who have codeshare and joint venture agreements most certainly do benefit.

And PBGC stands for Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation.



Really and those banks that agree to forgive loans to chapter 11 companies. They write off the losses on their tax bill. So it is a defacto government covering it. It's just barried in a way to make it look good.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:25 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Chapter 11 doesn’t cost the tax payers.


The loans forgiven in Chapter 11 are written off by the banks. ie losses allowed to be stated on taxes reducing what the banks pay in taxes overall. Thus it does cost the tax system & the taxpayer as a result.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:31 am

Boof02671 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Chapter 11 is a bankruptcy law, it costs airlines millions in fees to file, and every country has their own version of it.

Actually no, plenty of countries do not have the concept of Chapter 11.

From Wikipedia...
Canada doesn't even have it: "In Canada, bankruptcy always means liquidation. There is no way for a company to emerge from bankruptcy after restructuring, as is the case in the United States with a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing."

Europe did not have a Chapter 11 equivalent prior to 2013: "Following the soar in insolvencies in the last decade, a number of European countries, such as France, Germany, Spain and Italy, began to revamp their bankruptcy laws in 2013. They modelled these new laws after the image of Chapter 11 of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code."

Then explain how Air Canada filed in 2003 and is still in business?

https://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/02/busi ... ction.html

Then how did Rolls Royce file way before 2013?

https://ecommons.udayton.edu/cgi/viewco ... st_fac_pub

Shall I continue to refute you country by country?

Guess you didn’t click on the link to show all the countries that have it and shows years that had it prior to the article written.


https://www.ifo.de/DocDL/dicereport106-forum2.pdf


Rolls Royce was put under receivership in 1971, nationalized and renamed into a new company. Years later it was privatized again. Source: https://www.ft.com/content/86ac6ca0-efa ... 144feabdc0
 
rbavfan
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:34 am

strfyr51 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
A loan that was paid back under the ATSB program is not a subsidy, the airlines borrowed the money from the banks, paid it back a loan guarantee doesn’t cost the government money. For example US Airways borrowed the money from Citibank

The Airlines pay rent and landing fees. They dont operate for free and the airlines even help fund and underwrite airline bonds.

>A loan that was paid back under the ATSB program is not a subsidy, the airlines borrowed the money from the banks, paid it back a loan guarantee doesn’t cost the government money.
Oh then the ME3 aren't subsidized either. Getting low interest loans through government backed borrowing is one of the complaints lodged against the ME3.
>airlines even help fund and underwrite airline bonds
To me it isn't surprising that airlines have to fund their own bonds.
>The Airlines pay rent and landing fees.
The fees are supposed to be set to result in the airport breaking even or making a profit. That is what a capitalist enterprise looks like. When they are set below cost and the government makes up the difference it is a government subsidy.
bgm wrote:

Chapter 11.

Not unique to just US airlines, but it's most definitely a 'get out of jail free' card when the US3 were deeply in the red. Just ask the employees of the US carriers whoost so much after the spate of post 9/11 ch11 bankruptcies.

Another good point. The US3 pushing their pension obligations on the U.S. government (PBGC) is potentially explicit subsidy and I'm not aware of any other country that has allowed that for their airlines. The PBGC is massively underfunded and the GAO says it needs taxpayer funds to save it from insolvency. They are $50 billion in the red. https://www.gao.gov/highrisk/pension_be ... _did_study

Just So you realize? The PBCG has far more than just the airlines pensions parked there. And? It's Not Free to the airlines. United had to fork over $2B+ to the PBGC. So they didn't get off all that cheap. But they did get the liability off of their books.


That still does not come close to covering what they owed on the pensions.
 
ihmcallister
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:57 am

GSPSPOT wrote:
Why must every.... single.... little.... freakin' THING that involves this man be viewed as evil right out of the gate. Can someone here please at least try to be objective?


Because he will undoubtedly say something stupid and inflammatory. He's incapable of rational thought and reasoning.
(Not a hater, I'm a US political observer from outside that country)
 
Boof02671
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:49 am

strfyr51 wrote:
Now? United might not have a Pension Lkability But they're forking over 'oodles" of Bucks in profit sharing to the employees.

UA’s profit sharing for 2018 paid to employees was $334 million, that’s about $666 million short of a billion.

https://hub.united.com/united-airlines- ... 98817.html

Don’t let the facts get in your way.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:50 am

rbavfan wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Chapter 11 is a bankruptcy law, it costs airlines millions in fees to file, and every country has their own version of it.

Isn’t Alitalia in bankruptcy, gee they are in Italy.

https://bankruptcy.laws.com/international-laws

Funny this article lists numerous countries with bankruptcy laws.

https://www.ifo.de/DocDL/dicereport106-forum2.pdf

Concessions, elimination and reduction of debt and Debtor in Possession financing pays for it, not the Federal Government.

And yes other airlines who are outside of the US who have codeshare and joint venture agreements most certainly do benefit.

And PBGC stands for Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation.



Really and those banks that agree to forgive loans to chapter 11 companies. They write off the losses on their tax bill. So it is a defacto government covering it. It's just barried in a way to make it look good.

Banks don’t forgive loans in bankruptcy those are secured creditor claims. Wrong again.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:52 am

rbavfan wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
enilria wrote:
>A loan that was paid back under the ATSB program is not a subsidy, the airlines borrowed the money from the banks, paid it back a loan guarantee doesn’t cost the government money.
Oh then the ME3 aren't subsidized either. Getting low interest loans through government backed borrowing is one of the complaints lodged against the ME3.
>airlines even help fund and underwrite airline bonds
To me it isn't surprising that airlines have to fund their own bonds.
>The Airlines pay rent and landing fees.
The fees are supposed to be set to result in the airport breaking even or making a profit. That is what a capitalist enterprise looks like. When they are set below cost and the government makes up the difference it is a government subsidy.

Another good point. The US3 pushing their pension obligations on the U.S. government (PBGC) is potentially explicit subsidy and I'm not aware of any other country that has allowed that for their airlines. The PBGC is massively underfunded and the GAO says it needs taxpayer funds to save it from insolvency. They are $50 billion in the red. https://www.gao.gov/highrisk/pension_be ... _did_study

Just So you realize? The PBCG has far more than just the airlines pensions parked there. And? It's Not Free to the airlines. United had to fork over $2B+ to the PBGC. So they didn't get off all that cheap. But they did get the liability off of their books.


That still does not come close to covering what they owed on the pensions.

What’s so hard to understand, a company that dumps their pension has to give the PBGC stock in the new company to make up the short fall.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1024
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:14 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Chapter 11 is a bankruptcy law, it costs airlines millions in fees to file, and every country has their own version of it.

Isn’t Alitalia in bankruptcy, gee they are in Italy.

https://bankruptcy.laws.com/international-laws

Funny this article lists numerous countries with bankruptcy laws.

https://www.ifo.de/DocDL/dicereport106-forum2.pdf

Concessions, elimination and reduction of debt and Debtor in Possession financing pays for it, not the Federal Government.

And yes other airlines who are outside of the US who have codeshare and joint venture agreements most certainly do benefit.

And PBGC stands for Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation.



Really and those banks that agree to forgive loans to chapter 11 companies. They write off the losses on their tax bill. So it is a defacto government covering it. It's just barried in a way to make it look good.

Banks don’t forgive loans in bankruptcy those are secured creditor claims. Wrong again.

Secured bank loans may be recovered in full, providing the original going rate valuation is still good. Very often it isn't. And secured creditors will often forgive (take less than 100%) for a quick, clean repayment, with no legal action required.

Many bank loans are secured by a floating charge. These will rarely be recovered in full, mainly because there are multiple creditors with the same security.

Unsecured bank loans may not be recovered at all, or only cents in the dollar.

Some banks, in the US especially, bail on foreign loans if customers get into trouble, unless they are the lead bank. In this case the lead banks will pay out the small players at so many cents in the dollar, just to get them out of the picture.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:18 pm

Secured means their loan is backed by assets to recover if they default on the loan.

I’ve been through two chapter 11s at US and spent time in the court in both bankruptcies, as I was a rep and on the IAM Negotiating Committee for Mechanic and Related in Bankruptcy part 2.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:23 pm

Revelation wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
So? Now they've gone to Trump.. Ain't this something? So ? How much did the Emir offer Trump to set this UP? And? What's Pence's Take in this?

I'd say at least ten percent, same if not more for Kushner.


That's a very serious accusation. Do you have any evidence to support it? And for your ten percent allegation -- ten percent of what?
 
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enilria
Topic Author
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:53 pm

IPFreely wrote:
Revelation wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
So? Now they've gone to Trump.. Ain't this something? So ? How much did the Emir offer Trump to set this UP? And? What's Pence's Take in this?

I'd say at least ten percent, same if not more for Kushner.


That's a very serious accusation. Do you have any evidence to support it? And for your ten percent allegation -- ten percent of what?

Judging by the lack of any evidence I'd guess these are NYT journalists. "Sources familiar with the matter said..." LOL
 
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janders
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:39 pm

Some more interesting insight from the meeting. Trump was hardly impressed by the US3 arguments, while others such as FedEx were present also argued in support of QR.


Inside Trump's 'Apprentice'-worthy showdown with airline CEOs
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald ... s-n1035491
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:55 pm

Pretty embarrassing for US3. A good outcome that they walked away with their tails between their legs.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
kiowa
Posts: 546
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:18 am

LAXintl wrote:
Pretty embarrassing for US3. A good outcome that they walked away with their tails between their legs.


Why would that be “good”? An elected official should represent the citizens that elected them, the president included. US3 stands for “United States 3”
 
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PA727
Posts: 180
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:20 am

kiowa wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Pretty embarrassing for US3. A good outcome that they walked away with their tails between their legs.


Why would that be “good”? An elected official should represent the citizens that elected them, the president included. US3 stands for “United States 3”



Are you suggesting blind allegiance? I certainly hope not. Free of politics, if, as the latest NBC News article states, "Yet in an ominous sign for that effort, career officials at the Transportation Department previously ran an internal analysis of what would happen if the airlines did pursue a complaint through that process, and determined it would almost certainly be dismissed, several people familiar with that assessment said," he's representing ALL the citizens, not just a segment. The US3 stands for the US3, not the U.S.A. Let's not pretend otherwise.

This also has literally nothing to do with Trump or his politics, when viewed objectively. Quite frankly, he did the US3 a favor, if they're smart enough to walk away. But based on their responses coming out of the meeting, it doesn't seem that way.
 
Karlsands
Posts: 115
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:51 am

Cdydatzigs wrote:
fightforlove wrote:
Is it just me, or is Trump the first President who seems to be involved in every major airline deal??


He loves to stick his nose where it doesn't belong, that's why.

Someone needs to lay off the cnn
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 23624
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:15 am

US3 hardly represent the USA as FedEx, JetBlue, Atlas Air, Boeing, US Travel Association and many other groups have proven.

The only thing US3 represent are the US3 and they would happily live in a market where they would hold near total control and minimal competition.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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PW100
Posts: 3717
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Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:20 am

kiowa wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Pretty embarrassing for US3. A good outcome that they walked away with their tails between their legs.


Why would that be “good”? An elected official should represent the citizens that elected them, the president included. US3 stands for “United States 3”


I would expect that the citizens interets lay primarily with their traveling options, which can also be provided by someone else than the US3.
If QR can provide better/cheaper travelling options than US3 (subsidized or not*) that would be good for the citizens that elected them.

* In fact if subsidized, that would be even better: then non-US persons are (partly) paying for travels of US persons. How wonderful!
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
usairways787
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:42 pm

Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:45 am

Trump, according to NBC News, made fun of Parker for American Airlines' stock prices and "repeatedly harped on Bastian's absence."

And there it was LoL
Making bag smashing great again
 
J343
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:40 am

Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:50 am

Is there a reason why the US3 are targeting QR especially with their 49% ownership of Air Italy? Air Italy is Meridiana, only it was rebranded with QR owning 49%. I know the US3 cries could over unfair subsidies and breaching Open Skies agreement but is there any reason why QR is being a prime target? With regards to 5th freedom, I'm pretty sure EK operates more 5th freedom routes compared to EY and QR.

Also, we don't see airlines around the world crying foul over US3 getting bailouts from the Federal government (whether this is seen or considered a subsidy, I dont know). And also, doesn't DL own 49% of VS with stakes in AF-KL? How does that compare to QR's 49% ownership of Air Italy?

PS. I am not an expert in aviation. I am an enthusiast and have a strong interest within the airline industry. So please, of I said something dumb, I am sorry.
 
GuillaumePhilly
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 12:10 am

Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:37 pm

usairways787 wrote:
Trump, according to NBC News, made fun of Parker for American Airlines' stock prices and "repeatedly harped on Bastian's absence."

And there it was LoL


Business Insider has more details:

But the White House sided against them in a meeting that NBC described as "a heated, 'Apprentice'-worthy showdown."

Trump "repeatedly harped" on Bastian's absence and criticized the airline for buying planes from the European planemaker Airbus rather than Boeing, an American firm, NBC said.


http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-furious-delta-ceo-bastian-skipped-white-house-meeting-qatar-2019-7
 
Tiege212
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:50 pm

Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:02 pm

Let's face it. The real reason the USA airlines are complaining about this is that airlines have been bullied into paying their employees a ridiculous annual salary. The CEO's pockets are taking the hit because of the concessions that the unions have been able to negotiate and they're not happy. Although DL has been one of the loudest voices against the EAU it's funny how they decided to not even send someone to the table. I guess $2B in profits for several years has a way of keeping you quiet when the issues are brought forward. When the industry takes it's next downturn ( and it will ) DL will be the first one bringing this back up as the reason for the downturn. Mis-management in the industry as a whole has always been prevalent and now is no different. DL tried to change their business model and it has worked for now. Winds of change will come again and we will see at least one more major fall again. IMO
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:09 pm

etoile wrote:
Bigstud69 wrote:
GSPSPOT wrote:
Why must every.... single.... little.... freakin' THING that involves this man be viewed as evil right out of the gate. Can someone here please at least try to be objective?

It's called Trump derangement syndrome.


Objectively, there's no reason for a president to become involved in an industrial policy dispute among a few companies. Why is the current occupant getting involved in this dispute, among the thousands of other ones that exist? (Might it be because of the relationship that a senior advisor has with the Qatari political leadership and the Qatari investment fund? Remember that under the normal process, Kushner wouldn't have a security clearance.) What does the current occupant know about direct and indirect subsidies (aside from bankruptcy and property tax breaks)?

So when the current occupant gets involved in stuff that he knows nothing about, on a highly selective basis, where there is prima facie indication of untoward influence, we can't assume that the occupant's participation in this meeting is benign or ordinary course.


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