Bigant0408
Topic Author
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:26 am

KLM/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:28 pm

So looks like KLM and Air France are interested in expanding to Deltas Focus cities according to this article. What are your guys thoughts on this?

https://thepointsguy.com/news/air-franc ... expansion/
Last edited by janders on Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title correction
The man who sleeps on the floor doesn’t fall out of bed
 
User avatar
usdcaguy
Posts: 1338
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:41 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:38 pm

The writer of this article needs to understand how those decisions are made. As part of the JV, DL/AF/KL coordinate all their flights to North America. It's not just that AF/KL are looking to expand to those cities, it's that AF/KL, along with DL, are looking to expand to Delta's focus cities. They will determine together whether they fly AMS-AUS and what aircraft they use. In certain cases, they may determine that it's best that AF/KL be the carrier to cover the focus cities, but ultimately DL metal is considered alongside AF/KL metal in all these cases.
 
x1234
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:17 pm

Except the problem is KL/AF are short on 789's which are needed to launch service to lower demand focus cities. DL has 767/757's which are perfect for the route. KL launching LAS was interesting to me as a low yield leisure route but AF launching DFW to me is a success as the route is high yielding due to high tech & telecom traffic (Nokia in Paris, AT&T in Dallas, etc, etc.).
 
User avatar
Pudelhund
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:06 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:27 pm

If AF purchased the A321XLR, how far inland would they be able to go from CDG? Could they reach AUS in real world conditions? It is about 300 miles less than the advertised range of the XLR (~5100 miles vs ~5400 miles). If not, what about CVG/BNA or even CMH?
 
Fargo
Posts: 810
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:00 am

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:39 pm

DL already does CVG/RDU-CDG, so not sure why that is being suggested.

I’m sure AUS and BNA will be getting a DL/AF/KL TATL flight in the not too distant future, but SJC is right down the road from SFO so I doubt they’ll be seeing one.
 
Ishrion
Posts: 1197
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:42 pm

Fargo wrote:
DL already does CVG/RDU-CDG, so not sure why that is being suggested.

I’m sure AUS and BNA will be getting a DL/AF/KL TATL flight in the not too distant future, but SJC is right down the road from SFO so I doubt they’ll be seeing one.


SJC being next to SFO didn’t stop LH from launching flights to there, even though they recently cut the route.

It didn’t stop BA from launching flights to SJC after already serving SFO AND Oakland.
 
Fargo
Posts: 810
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:00 am

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:48 pm

Ishrion wrote:
Fargo wrote:
DL already does CVG/RDU-CDG, so not sure why that is being suggested.

I’m sure AUS and BNA will be getting a DL/AF/KL TATL flight in the not too distant future, but SJC is right down the road from SFO so I doubt they’ll be seeing one.


SJC being next to SFO didn’t stop LH from launching flights to there, even though they recently cut the route.

It didn’t stop BA from launching flights to SJC after already serving SFO AND Oakland.


They can make LHR work because London has the most O&D demand of European cities from the US. If they can't even make FRA work with a large UA FF base, I highly doubt CDG/AMS will be successful, considering AF and KL both serve SFO and DL, AF and VS all have lounges international premium SkyTeam customers can use.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2147
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:52 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
The writer of this article needs to understand how those decisions are made. As part of the JV, DL/AF/KL coordinate all their flights to North America. It's not just that AF/KL are looking to expand to those cities, it's that AF/KL, along with DL, are looking to expand to Delta's focus cities. They will determine together whether they fly AMS-AUS and what aircraft they use. In certain cases, they may determine that it's best that AF/KL be the carrier to cover the focus cities, but ultimately DL metal is considered alongside AF/KL metal in all these cases.


He knows. Ed Russell is a credible writer, he spent a lot of time at Flight Global. TPG is an interesting landing spot for him as they are far more Buzzfeed of the aviation world.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5856
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:17 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
The writer of this article needs to understand how those decisions are made. As part of the JV, DL/AF/KL coordinate all their flights to North America. It's not just that AF/KL are looking to expand to those cities, it's that AF/KL, along with DL, are looking to expand to Delta's focus cities. They will determine together whether they fly AMS-AUS and what aircraft they use. In certain cases, they may determine that it's best that AF/KL be the carrier to cover the focus cities, but ultimately DL metal is considered alongside AF/KL metal in all these cases.


He knows. Ed Russell is a credible writer, he spent a lot of time at Flight Global.


If he knows that he's just trying to create drama, not to inform. That's a good clue he's unworthy of your time.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 9301
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:20 pm

I think Austin is a shoe in to get a flight as well as San Jose.

It would be nice to have a 2nd flight at RDU that leaves RDU at around 10 or 11 at night, and leaves CDG or AMS at 4 in the afternoon. It would help with some crazy connections. However i think that flight is still a few years from happening.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13998
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:58 pm

Ishrion wrote:
Fargo wrote:
DL already does CVG/RDU-CDG, so not sure why that is being suggested.

I’m sure AUS and BNA will be getting a DL/AF/KL TATL flight in the not too distant future, but SJC is right down the road from SFO so I doubt they’ll be seeing one.


SJC being next to SFO didn’t stop LH from launching flights to there, even though they recently cut the route.

It didn’t stop BA from launching flights to SJC after already serving SFO AND Oakland.


SJC TATL seems marginal, and it’s a lot of aircraft tome, which doesn’t help. I suspect we’ll see AUS (full time) and perhaps BNA and LAS-CDG before SJC.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2147
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:23 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
The writer of this article needs to understand how those decisions are made. As part of the JV, DL/AF/KL coordinate all their flights to North America. It's not just that AF/KL are looking to expand to those cities, it's that AF/KL, along with DL, are looking to expand to Delta's focus cities. They will determine together whether they fly AMS-AUS and what aircraft they use. In certain cases, they may determine that it's best that AF/KL be the carrier to cover the focus cities, but ultimately DL metal is considered alongside AF/KL metal in all these cases.


He knows. Ed Russell is a credible writer, he spent a lot of time at Flight Global.


If he knows that he's just trying to create drama, not to inform. That's a good clue he's unworthy of your time.


Unfortunately, he may be swinging too far to the TPG way of writing instead of being a reputable reporter (which he is/was/is capable of).
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 2453
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:16 am

This should start a slew of "Why doesn't AF/KL fly to..." threads ;)

While I love reading TPG for their reviews and their inroads into cheap flights internationally, sometimes, their speculation articles aren't to be taken at face value.
 
User avatar
KLMatSJC
Posts: 509
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:16 am

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:29 am

Ishrion wrote:
Fargo wrote:
DL already does CVG/RDU-CDG, so not sure why that is being suggested.

I’m sure AUS and BNA will be getting a DL/AF/KL TATL flight in the not too distant future, but SJC is right down the road from SFO so I doubt they’ll be seeing one.


SJC being next to SFO didn’t stop LH from launching flights to there, even though they recently cut the route.

It didn’t stop BA from launching flights to SJC after already serving SFO AND Oakland.


OAK actually came the summer after SJC.
A318/19/20/21/21N A332/3 A343/5 A388 B712 B722 B732/3/4/7/8/9/9ER B744/4M B752/3 B762ER/3/3ER/4ER B77E/L/W B788 CRJ2/7/9 Q400 EMB-120 ERJ-135/140/145/145XR/175 DC-10-10 MD-82/83/88/90

Long Live the Tulip, Cactus, and Redwood
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12502
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:27 am

Though not officially labeled one of DL's focus cities, MSY officials have been talking with AF an awful lot lately, since the end of last year. DL is by far the largest legacy carrier there, and has recently built an all-new larger Sky Club that will be opening in the fall.

I realize that it's common for airports to talk to carriers all the time, but it's the frequency and repetition that has locals here wondering/thinking:
Aviation officials at MSY have been meeting with AF more than they did with BA, shortly before the MSY-LHR service was announced, sometimes multiple times within the same few weeks.

Speaking of LHR, the most telltale precursor to that service's announcement, was that a few months prior, the expense logs switched from labeling meetings generically, to "status" updates for the carrier.

The logs concerning AF have now done the same (screenshot below). Hmm....... :scratchchin: :scratchchin:

Image
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Dragonlionting
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:30 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:43 am

If either airline is going to start at SJC, DL needs to add more flights and AF/KL need to make sure quick and stress free transit to South Asia is possible. Silicon Valley to South Asia is huge and if you give a cost efficient and easy option people will fly it
 
rrbsztk
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:48 am

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:07 am

Dragonlionting wrote:
If either airline is going to start at SJC, DL needs to add more flights and AF/KL need to make sure quick and stress free transit to South Asia is possible. Silicon Valley to South Asia is huge and if you give a cost efficient and easy option people will fly it


Not quite sure I'm following the South Asia part. Would AF/KL look to sell connections to Asia via SJC
 
Dragonlionting
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:30 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:41 am

rrbsztk wrote:
Dragonlionting wrote:
If either airline is going to start at SJC, DL needs to add more flights and AF/KL need to make sure quick and stress free transit to South Asia is possible. Silicon Valley to South Asia is huge and if you give a cost efficient and easy option people will fly it


Not quite sure I'm following the South Asia part. Would AF/KL look to sell connections to Asia via SJC

Extremely large Indian (South Asia) population, to a lesser extent Pakistani, Bengali, Sri Lankan etc.
Right now the BA flight and the old LH flight both had a lot of people using Europe as a stopover to places in south asia
 
rrbsztk
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:48 am

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:13 am

Dragonlionting wrote:
rrbsztk wrote:
Dragonlionting wrote:
If either airline is going to start at SJC, DL needs to add more flights and AF/KL need to make sure quick and stress free transit to South Asia is possible. Silicon Valley to South Asia is huge and if you give a cost efficient and easy option people will fly it


Not quite sure I'm following the South Asia part. Would AF/KL look to sell connections to Asia via SJC

Extremely large Indian (South Asia) population, to a lesser extent Pakistani, Bengali, Sri Lankan etc.
Right now the BA flight and the old LH flight both had a lot of people using Europe as a stopover to places in south asia


Good to know, I would not have thought many connected via Europe from West Coat. I do wonder how Delta would handle that with the TPAC Korean and TATL AF/KLM joint ventures.
 
User avatar
PacoMartin
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:47 pm

Pudelhund wrote:
If AF purchased the A321XLR, how far inland would they be able to go from CDG? Could they reach AUS in real world conditions? It is about 300 miles less than the advertised range of the XLR (~5100 miles vs ~5400 miles).


I would say that it is impossible. The longest existing commercial routes are far below the advertised range of the jets. Also routes that don't cross the equator must be much shorter since one leg is much longer time than the other because of tradewinds.

Advertised max range
3,200 nm Airbus A321
4,000 nm Airbus A321neo

Actual max range
2,350 nm Airbus A321 Boston San Francisco 6:49 JetBlue B6 133/833/1833
3,371 nm Airbus A321neo Manila Sydney 8:35 Philippine Airlines PR 211/213
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1357
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:10 pm

rrbsztk wrote:
Dragonlionting wrote:
rrbsztk wrote:

Not quite sure I'm following the South Asia part. Would AF/KL look to sell connections to Asia via SJC

Extremely large Indian (South Asia) population, to a lesser extent Pakistani, Bengali, Sri Lankan etc.
Right now the BA flight and the old LH flight both had a lot of people using Europe as a stopover to places in south asia


Good to know, I would not have thought many connected via Europe from West Coat. I do wonder how Delta would handle that with the TPAC Korean and TATL AF/KLM joint ventures.


Maybe the JV with KL at SJC, with connections to other parts of Asia would work? That would be interesting. Wasn’t there a rumor posted on a.net some time ago that KL was interested in SJC-ICN?

Who knows, maybe AMS and/or CDG would work, too?
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 934
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:02 pm

Dragonlionting wrote:
rrbsztk wrote:
Dragonlionting wrote:
If either airline is going to start at SJC, DL needs to add more flights and AF/KL need to make sure quick and stress free transit to South Asia is possible. Silicon Valley to South Asia is huge and if you give a cost efficient and easy option people will fly it


Not quite sure I'm following the South Asia part. Would AF/KL look to sell connections to Asia via SJC

Extremely large Indian (South Asia) population, to a lesser extent Pakistani, Bengali, Sri Lankan etc.
Right now the BA flight and the old LH flight both had a lot of people using Europe as a stopover to places in south asia

Why will anybody flying from Europe connect through SJC to fly to South Asia? They can just fly eastwards nonstop from Europe on AF/KL or take the more convenient connections on KE/CX/EK/QR/EY/SQ.
And if you are talking about connecting in SJC, keep in mind people will have to apply for a US visa to clear customs and immigration in the US.
Not to mention the extra time and distance one has to fly to go through SJC.
 
rrbsztk
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:48 am

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:53 pm

DTWLAX wrote:
Dragonlionting wrote:
rrbsztk wrote:

Not quite sure I'm following the South Asia part. Would AF/KL look to sell connections to Asia via SJC

Extremely large Indian (South Asia) population, to a lesser extent Pakistani, Bengali, Sri Lankan etc.
Right now the BA flight and the old LH flight both had a lot of people using Europe as a stopover to places in south asia

Why will anybody flying from Europe connect through SJC to fly to South Asia? They can just fly eastwards nonstop from Europe on AF/KL or take the more convenient connections on KE/CX/EK/QR/EY/SQ.
And if you are talking about connecting in SJC, keep in mind people will have to apply for a US visa to clear customs and immigration in the US.
Not to mention the extra time and distance one has to fly to go through SJC.


That's the part that has me wondering how the Pacific vs Atlantic JVs play out. Using GCmap sjc-cdg-del was roughly 1000 regular miles longer than sjc-icn-del. I can see for middle east from sjc connecting via Europe as a good option, and i can see in some cases (corporate contacts, flight times, available options, personal preference, etc.) it might make sense to choose to fly sjc to se Asia via Europe, but i have to imagine Korean and the Pacific JV would not be a fan of rooting traffic via the TATL JVs regularly.
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 4967
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:54 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Though not officially labeled one of DL's focus cities, MSY officials have been talking with AF an awful lot lately, since the end of last year. DL is by far the largest legacy carrier there, and has recently built an all-new larger Sky Club that will be opening in the fall.

I realize that it's common for airports to talk to carriers all the time, but it's the frequency and repetition that has locals here wondering/thinking:
Aviation officials at MSY have been meeting with AF more than they did with BA, shortly before the MSY-LHR service was announced, sometimes multiple times within the same few weeks.


I'll add to the not-quite-a-focus-city list by suggesting CMH is still actively pursuing a TATL flight, which DL was confirmed to be in talks for and many believed to be CMH-AMS thanks to the route being in 757 range; there was actually a false alarm of an announcement of that route in 2017. Now that most of their domestic goals (SLC, SFO, SEA) have been accomplished and started, I'd think that'd be in the crosshairs now.

Not sure if it's much of a telltale, but CRAA's Air Service Committee has been asked to investigate adding Global Entry at CMH.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
IADCA
Posts: 1868
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:58 pm

Fargo wrote:
DL already does CVG/RDU-CDG, so not sure why that is being suggested.

I’m sure AUS and BNA will be getting a DL/AF/KL TATL flight in the not too distant future, but SJC is right down the road from SFO so I doubt they’ll be seeing one.


It's right down one extremely congested road from SFO in one of the wealthiest areas in the US from both an individual and business perspective. Without the impetus to consolidate at SFO for *A feed that LH had, it doesn't strike me as crazy, but there would definitely be challenges related to SJC's subpar lounge facilities. There is some upside due to how crazy SFO is getting in terms of landside transport these days. Especially on weekends, it's very difficult to get to anywhere down the Peninsula from SFO, to the point that I've basically moved my flying to SJC despite having status on UA.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 934
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:05 pm

rrbsztk wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
Dragonlionting wrote:
Extremely large Indian (South Asia) population, to a lesser extent Pakistani, Bengali, Sri Lankan etc.
Right now the BA flight and the old LH flight both had a lot of people using Europe as a stopover to places in south asia

Why will anybody flying from Europe connect through SJC to fly to South Asia? They can just fly eastwards nonstop from Europe on AF/KL or take the more convenient connections on KE/CX/EK/QR/EY/SQ.
And if you are talking about connecting in SJC, keep in mind people will have to apply for a US visa to clear customs and immigration in the US.
Not to mention the extra time and distance one has to fly to go through SJC.


That's the part that has me wondering how the Pacific vs Atlantic JVs play out. Using GCmap sjc-cdg-del was roughly 1000 regular miles longer than sjc-icn-del. I can see for middle east from sjc connecting via Europe as a good option, and i can see in some cases (corporate contacts, flight times, available options, personal preference, etc.) it might make sense to choose to fly sjc to se Asia via Europe, but i have to imagine Korean and the Pacific JV would not be a fan of rooting traffic via the TATL JVs regularly.

Dragonlionting mentioned DL needs to add flights from SJC to South Asia and AF/KL need to ensure quick and stress free transit.
If I read that correctly, he is talking about passengers from the AF/KL flights connecting to DL's South Asia flights at SJC.
If that is the case, based on gcmap CDG-SIN is 6666 miles while CDG-SJC-SIN is 14061 miles!!! Why will anybody do that?

Also, isn't the JV between DL, AF and KL only for transatlantic flights?
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 934
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:09 pm

Dragonlionting wrote:
If either airline is going to start at SJC, DL needs to add more flights and AF/KL need to make sure quick and stress free transit to South Asia is possible. Silicon Valley to South Asia is huge and if you give a cost efficient and easy option people will fly it

Are you talking about DL adding more domestic flights into SJC?
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12502
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:43 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
Pudelhund wrote:
If AF purchased the A321XLR, how far inland would they be able to go from CDG? Could they reach AUS in real world conditions? It is about 300 miles less than the advertised range of the XLR (~5100 miles vs ~5400 miles).


I would say that it is impossible. The longest existing commercial routes are far below the advertised range of the jets. Also routes that don't cross the equator must be much shorter since one leg is much longer time than the other because of tradewinds.

Advertised max range
3,200 nm Airbus A321
4,000 nm Airbus A321neo

Actual max range
2,350 nm Airbus A321 Boston San Francisco 6:49 JetBlue B6 133/833/1833
3,371 nm Airbus A321neo Manila Sydney 8:35 Philippine Airlines PR 211/213

Far too generalist.

Heck, UA's former LAX-SIN and QF's current PER-LHR are actually *above* the advertised range of the 789.

Just have to look at the ships' performance charts, and calculate with realistic conditions. Advertised range means nothing.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Dragonlionting
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:30 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:57 pm

DTWLAX wrote:
rrbsztk wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
Why will anybody flying from Europe connect through SJC to fly to South Asia? They can just fly eastwards nonstop from Europe on AF/KL or take the more convenient connections on KE/CX/EK/QR/EY/SQ.
And if you are talking about connecting in SJC, keep in mind people will have to apply for a US visa to clear customs and immigration in the US.
Not to mention the extra time and distance one has to fly to go through SJC.


That's the part that has me wondering how the Pacific vs Atlantic JVs play out. Using GCmap sjc-cdg-del was roughly 1000 regular miles longer than sjc-icn-del. I can see for middle east from sjc connecting via Europe as a good option, and i can see in some cases (corporate contacts, flight times, available options, personal preference, etc.) it might make sense to choose to fly sjc to se Asia via Europe, but i have to imagine Korean and the Pacific JV would not be a fan of rooting traffic via the TATL JVs regularly.

Dragonlionting mentioned DL needs to add flights from SJC to South Asia and AF/KL need to ensure quick and stress free transit.
If I read that correctly, he is talking about passengers from the AF/KL flights connecting to DL's South Asia flights at SJC.
If that is the case, based on gcmap CDG-SIN is 6666 miles while CDG-SJC-SIN is 14061 miles!!! Why will anybody do that?

Also, isn't the JV between DL, AF and KL only for transatlantic flights?

I’m saying either AF/KL should start CDG/AMS-SJC bc silicon valley’s extensive south Asian community uses Europe as a stopover to South Asia, DL just generally needs to add more flights to SJC
 
x1234
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: KLM/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:03 am

One thing that DL can do is to tell their JV partner KE to make DEL & BOM daily for connecting traffic from the Americas. Also launch BLR for the Western multinational outsourcing business.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 934
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:04 am

Dragonlionting wrote:
I’m saying either AF/KL should start CDG/AMS-SJC bc silicon valley’s extensive south Asian community uses Europe as a stopover to South Asia, DL just generally needs to add more flights to SJC


That makes it clear. AF/KL do offer convenient connections at AMS and CDG. I travel a lot from LAX to BOM and use AF/DL/KL. Decent connection times both ways. If the SJC flights are timed accordingly, it is not an issue.
I am only talking about India here (not sure about other South Asian countries), DL does not offer options through KE as much as AF/KL because KE does not fly daily to BOM.
Maybe more options are available via ICN for places like SIN, KUL, etc.
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1643
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:57 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

He knows. Ed Russell is a credible writer, he spent a lot of time at Flight Global.


If he knows that he's just trying to create drama, not to inform. That's a good clue he's unworthy of your time.


Unfortunately, he may be swinging too far to the TPG way of writing instead of being a reputable reporter (which he is/was/is capable of).



Y'all, I realize it is fashionable to demean the media, but Ned Russell is probably best airline beat writer in the country. He digs into the industry from a very commercially-focused point-of-view. Most of the best Flight Global writing concerning the U.S. market has come from him over the past several years. He knows how this industry works, I promise. Those who decry the move to The Points Guy ought to take a close look at his writing since joining and remember that you don't need to pay an expensive subscription to access the news there. Take a look at the body of work just since he's been at TPG:

https://thepointsguy.com/author/edwardrussell/

There was nothing about this particular piece that was creating drama or any such nonsense. He wrote it based on an interview with the AFKL Exec and it reflected those comments. I'm mystified as to how anyone could think this wasn't interesting an informative. There were certainly no facts to dispute. This was a good, interesting piece that highlighted a topic that no one else in the media would be interested in. Count you blessings that we have access to this type of coverage these days.
 
blockski
Posts: 550
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:29 pm

jetlanta wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

If he knows that he's just trying to create drama, not to inform. That's a good clue he's unworthy of your time.


Unfortunately, he may be swinging too far to the TPG way of writing instead of being a reputable reporter (which he is/was/is capable of).



Y'all, I realize it is fashionable to demean the media, but Ned Russell is probably best airline beat writer in the country. He digs into the industry from a very commercially-focused point-of-view. Most of the best Flight Global writing concerning the U.S. market has come from him over the past several years. He knows how this industry works, I promise. Those who decry the move to The Points Guy ought to take a close look at his writing since joining and remember that you don't need to pay an expensive subscription to access the news there. Take a look at the body of work just since he's been at TPG:

https://thepointsguy.com/author/edwardrussell/

There was nothing about this particular piece that was creating drama or any such nonsense. He wrote it based on an interview with the AFKL Exec and it reflected those comments. I'm mystified as to how anyone could think this wasn't interesting an informative. There were certainly no facts to dispute. This was a good, interesting piece that highlighted a topic that no one else in the media would be interested in. Count you blessings that we have access to this type of coverage these days.


Yeah, the criticisms of Russel and of this article are completely off base. Russel is based in DC, went to a media event (opening a new SkyTeam lounge at IAD), spoke to an AF-KLM Senior VP and got a useful quote, and reported it out.

I don't see any attempts to create drama at all, just straight reporting. It's not an 'analysis' piece or anything else.
 
rjmf22
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 10:37 pm

Re: KLM/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:49 pm

Could we see AF start SLC? KLM already serves, and the route makes sense on an a330 or 789.
United Airlines
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1357
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:08 pm

Dragonlionting wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
rrbsztk wrote:

That's the part that has me wondering how the Pacific vs Atlantic JVs play out. Using GCmap sjc-cdg-del was roughly 1000 regular miles longer than sjc-icn-del. I can see for middle east from sjc connecting via Europe as a good option, and i can see in some cases (corporate contacts, flight times, available options, personal preference, etc.) it might make sense to choose to fly sjc to se Asia via Europe, but i have to imagine Korean and the Pacific JV would not be a fan of rooting traffic via the TATL JVs regularly.

Dragonlionting mentioned DL needs to add flights from SJC to South Asia and AF/KL need to ensure quick and stress free transit.
If I read that correctly, he is talking about passengers from the AF/KL flights connecting to DL's South Asia flights at SJC.
If that is the case, based on gcmap CDG-SIN is 6666 miles while CDG-SJC-SIN is 14061 miles!!! Why will anybody do that?

Also, isn't the JV between DL, AF and KL only for transatlantic flights?

I’m saying either AF/KL should start CDG/AMS-SJC bc silicon valley’s extensive south Asian community uses Europe as a stopover to South Asia, DL just generally needs to add more flights to SJC


This is the idea. DL seems to want to tap into business travelers (mostly) to/from SJC. They might be able to add some connections from other cities at SJC, but I assume it would be primarily SJC O/D traffic and potentially competing for some of the Bay Area traffic. Maybe UA or other SFO passengers?
 
VTORD
Posts: 545
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:37 pm

DTWLAX wrote:
Dragonlionting wrote:
If either airline is going to start at SJC, DL needs to add more flights and AF/KL need to make sure quick and stress free transit to South Asia is possible. Silicon Valley to South Asia is huge and if you give a cost efficient and easy option people will fly it

Are you talking about DL adding more domestic flights into SJC?

I believe yes. That's how I read it.
What s/he is suggesting is that DL add more domestic in to SJC and AF/KL should ensure that the connections to South Asia in CDG/AMS are suitable. Currently I don't think SJC even has DL flights to non-hubs.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12502
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:51 pm

VTORD wrote:
Currently I don't think SJC even has DL flights to non-hubs.

LAS
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5389
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: KLM/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:41 pm

AMS-AUS on KL and CDG-MSY on AF seem like the two most logical first routes.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 934
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:53 pm

AirFiero wrote:
This is the idea. DL seems to want to tap into business travelers (mostly) to/from SJC. They might be able to add some connections from other cities at SJC, but I assume it would be primarily SJC O/D traffic and potentially competing for some of the Bay Area traffic. Maybe UA or other SFO passengers?

Potentially pulling passengers from AF/KL SFO flights as well. Wonder how that will affect the SFO flights.
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1357
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:34 pm

VTORD wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
Dragonlionting wrote:
If either airline is going to start at SJC, DL needs to add more flights and AF/KL need to make sure quick and stress free transit to South Asia is possible. Silicon Valley to South Asia is huge and if you give a cost efficient and easy option people will fly it

Are you talking about DL adding more domestic flights into SJC?

I believe yes. That's how I read it.
What s/he is suggesting is that DL add more domestic in to SJC and AF/KL should ensure that the connections to South Asia in CDG/AMS are suitable. Currently I don't think SJC even has DL flights to non-hubs.


As mentioned, LAS plus whatever DL plans for “focus city” status.
 
ANA787
Posts: 826
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:00 pm

Re: KLM/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:00 am

Does PDX count as a DL focus city with service to AMS, LHR, and NRT? Maybe PDX-CDG is in the cards?
 
FSDan
Posts: 2618
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:06 am

Fargo wrote:
DL already does CVG/RDU-CDG, so not sure why that is being suggested.


Perhaps they're looking at moving one or both of those services to AF 332 or 789 service, allowing the DL 763s to be used on other routes.

Fargo wrote:
SJC is right down the road from SFO so I doubt they’ll be seeing one.


I agree it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for KL or AF to fly to SJC. Looking at DL's other JVs, I think a KE SJC-ICN service could be a good fit, both due to the high tech O&D and the potential beyond-ICN connections.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
AF773
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:25 pm

Re: KLM/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:09 am

SCQ83 wrote:
AMS-AUS on KL and CDG-MSY on AF seem like the two most logical first routes.


Those are my top guesses as well.
Still secretly hoping for CDG-SAN or AMS-SAN...
Next flights: SAN-LAX-CDG; ORY-TLN-ORY; CDG-SEA-LAX-SAN; SAN-LAX-CDG-SLC-SNA; TIJ-MEX-PVR-MEX-TIJ
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:04 am

LAX772LR wrote:
PacoMartin wrote:
Pudelhund wrote:
If AF purchased the A321XLR, how far inland would they be able to go from CDG? Could they reach AUS in real world conditions? It is about 300 miles less than the advertised range of the XLR (~5100 miles vs ~5400 miles).


I would say that it is impossible. The longest existing commercial routes are far below the advertised range of the jets. Also routes that don't cross the equator must be much shorter since one leg is much longer time than the other because of tradewinds.

Advertised max range
3,200 nm Airbus A321
4,000 nm Airbus A321neo

Actual max range
2,350 nm Airbus A321 Boston San Francisco 6:49 JetBlue B6 133/833/1833
3,371 nm Airbus A321neo Manila Sydney 8:35 Philippine Airlines PR 211/213

Far too generalist.

Heck, UA's former LAX-SIN and QF's current PER-LHR are actually *above* the advertised range of the 789.

Just have to look at the ships' performance charts, and calculate with realistic conditions. Advertised range means nothing.


Indeed. WoW was operating a standard 321NEO on some KEF-LAX flights. This former route clocks in at 3,748 nm.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12502
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:09 am

Dominion301 wrote:
Indeed. WoW was operating a standard 321NEO on some KEF-LAX flights. This former route clocks in at 3,748 nm.

Sure, though keep in mind that the westbound runs on some of those ops blocked 60+ seats.

Hardly an example of a sensible operation, even as a(n all-too-common) substitution.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 4994
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: KLM/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:15 am

I would love to see KLM at SEA.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:30 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
Indeed. WoW was operating a standard 321NEO on some KEF-LAX flights. This former route clocks in at 3,748 nm.

Sure, though keep in mind that the westbound runs on some of those ops blocked 60+ seats.

Hardly an example of a sensible operation, even as a(n all-too-common) substitution.


Definitely, but it goes to show that in a typical 180 pax 2-class config, the 321NEO can do a couple hundred nm more than the current longest route. I never knew Airbus even had the standard 321NEO’s range published as being that high...thought 4,000 would have been for the LR.
 
Fargo
Posts: 810
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:00 am

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:04 am

FSDan wrote:
Fargo wrote:
DL already does CVG/RDU-CDG, so not sure why that is being suggested.


Perhaps they're looking at moving one or both of those services to AF 332 or 789 service, allowing the DL 763s to be used on other routes.

Fargo wrote:
SJC is right down the road from SFO so I doubt they’ll be seeing one.


I agree it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for KL or AF to fly to SJC. Looking at DL's other JVs, I think a KE SJC-ICN service could be a good fit, both due to the high tech O&D and the potential beyond-ICN connections.


1. It would be a major departure from their current strategy for AF/KL metal to serve non-hub secondary US markets. Other than the AF 332, the planes are simply too big.

2. SJC-any SkyTeam hub makes no sense because AF/KL/KE all serve SFO right up the road, which has far superior lounge facilities that DL/SkyTeam would not replicate at SJC. I think there is a reason no one other than BA can make SJC-Europe work.
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1357
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:04 pm

Fargo wrote:
FSDan wrote:
Fargo wrote:
DL already does CVG/RDU-CDG, so not sure why that is being suggested.


Perhaps they're looking at moving one or both of those services to AF 332 or 789 service, allowing the DL 763s to be used on other routes.

Fargo wrote:
SJC is right down the road from SFO so I doubt they’ll be seeing one.


I agree it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for KL or AF to fly to SJC. Looking at DL's other JVs, I think a KE SJC-ICN service could be a good fit, both due to the high tech O&D and the potential beyond-ICN connections.


1. It would be a major departure from their current strategy for AF/KL metal to serve non-hub secondary US markets. Other than the AF 332, the planes are simply too big.

2. SJC-any SkyTeam hub makes no sense because AF/KL/KE all serve SFO right up the road, which has far superior lounge facilities that DL/SkyTeam would not replicate at SJC. I think there is a reason no one other than BA can make SJC-Europe work.


If DL is serious about SJC as a focus city that seems to be about premium business passengers, wouldn’t it make sense for them to *build* a lounge at SJC? How hard could it be?
 
FSDan
Posts: 2618
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: KML/Air France Eyeing Delta focus cities

Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:28 pm

Fargo wrote:
FSDan wrote:
Fargo wrote:
DL already does CVG/RDU-CDG, so not sure why that is being suggested.


Perhaps they're looking at moving one or both of those services to AF 332 or 789 service, allowing the DL 763s to be used on other routes.

Fargo wrote:
SJC is right down the road from SFO so I doubt they’ll be seeing one.


I agree it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for KL or AF to fly to SJC. Looking at DL's other JVs, I think a KE SJC-ICN service could be a good fit, both due to the high tech O&D and the potential beyond-ICN connections.


1. It would be a major departure from their current strategy for AF/KL metal to serve non-hub secondary US markets. Other than the AF 332, the planes are simply too big.


Believe it or not, CVG-CDG was flown by AF in the past. I agree it would be a departure from the predominant strategy of having DL fly to the secondary U.S. markets, but I wouldn't rule it out entirely either.

Fargo wrote:
2. SJC-any SkyTeam hub makes no sense because AF/KL/KE all serve SFO right up the road, which has far superior lounge facilities that DL/SkyTeam would not replicate at SJC. I think there is a reason no one other than BA can make SJC-Europe work.


I still disagree about SJC-ICN. There are many major tech companies that have offices much closer to San Jose that would probably value the convenience of a nonstop to ICN from SJC. I think BA and NH have shown that when there's enough O&D demand in a market from SJC, people are happy to avoid SFO. I agree it doesn't make sense if most of the traffic is connecting somewhere beyond the hub (in which case people could probably drive a bit further up to SFO for a nonstop to wherever they are going), but a market like ICN should have plenty of O&D business and VFR traffic to support a flight from the South Bay.

Also, what percentage of people on any given long haul flight use an airline lounge beforehand anyway? I'd guess it's a pretty small fraction. Of South Bay residents/workers, the volume of passengers who would prefer SJC due to traffic avoidance, airport convenience, etc. would be much larger than the volume of passengers who would prefer SFO due to lounge quality.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos