At a time when many of us, if we're lucky, are getting rises of 2% or so, a rise of 11.5% over three years sounds very generous to me. Do BA's pilots have a case?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49075767

vaughanparry wrote:

At a time when many of us, if we're lucky, are getting rises of 2% or so, a rise of 11.5% over three years sounds very generous to me. Do BA's pilots have a case?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49075767

Yes they do. They’re terms and conditions have fallen while the company has made record breaking profits, and paid executives more than ever. I see the main problems as the “new” contract with more Pay points, the days leave that everyone lost, and maybe even the new bidding system which is even worse for the lower 50% in seniority.

Good luck to them.

Any update on possible impact on the schedule already? How far in advance do they announce the (actual) strikes? Will be a massive hit for travelers and vacationers.

The pilots deserve the same percentage increase as the management have received. Why is it , that it is always" management " that awards THEMSELVES pay increases and makes all the other workers settle for less ? Greed. Go get 'em Speedbird pilots.

To add balance, I suggest that other Anetters look at the other working groups at BA who have already accepted a very similar deal to that offered to the pilots. I may be wrong but I think that all the other working groups have voted to accept their similar deals.

How does pay at BA compare with Virgin, Thomas Cook, Thomson, Ryanair or Easyjet, and what are the conditions?

The pilots likely have better leverage for a pay rise than the cabin crew, but BA management are possibly willing to ask the question of where else are you going to go? Neither the ME3 or CX look particularly appealing right now, I guess a Euro denominated salary might be nice right now given the devaluation of the pound, but Paris/Amsterdam/Munich are expensive cities and the airlines have their own troubles.

Rumours to which I have heard, are strike action over the August bank holiday weekend has been spoken of, along with a weekend In the middle of August or several one-off individual days.

I guess we will have to wait and see over the coming days what BALPA notifies BA of.

OMAA

rubberdogdo wrote:

The pilots deserve the same percentage increase as the management have received. Why is it , that it is always" management " that awards THEMSELVES pay increases and makes all the other workers settle for less ? Greed. Go get 'em Speedbird pilots.

Decision-making pays more than labor because it's more important to the entire chain. Why are pilots earning more than the ground crew? You can always look at the people above you and complain that you've less, or you just happy with the great job you have and with the more than generous wage it comes with.

Considering the glee with which the BA pilots not only crossed the BA flight attendants’ picket line in 2010, but actively worked with BA management to destroy it, I hope they don’t expect any support from other unions.

BA pilots, in many cases, worked as scab flight attendants on their days off. Now it’s their turn and I bet they’re giving the flight attendants the “We are all in this together” speech.

Fortunately, people’s memories are long.

IWMBH wrote:

rubberdogdo wrote:

The pilots deserve the same percentage increase as the management have received. Why is it , that it is always" management " that awards THEMSELVES pay increases and makes all the other workers settle for less ? Greed. Go get 'em Speedbird pilots.

Decision-making pays more than labor because it's more important to the entire chain. Why are pilots earning more than the ground crew? You can always look at the people above you and complain that you've less, or you just happy with the great job you have and with the more than generous wage it comes with.

Totally untrue. You only have to look at the US Congress.

What is it with European airlines and striking every other day?

millionsofmiles wrote:

Considering the glee with which the BA pilots not only crossed the BA flight attendants’ picket line in 2010, but actively worked with BA management to destroy it, I hope they don’t expect any support from other unions.

BA pilots, in many cases, worked as scab flight attendants on their days off. Now it’s their turn and I bet they’re giving the flight attendants the “We are all in this together” speech.

Fortunately, people’s memories are long.

Not sure the cabin crew will be able to work as scab pilots on their days off.

Generally the highest paid pilots in the UK are offered a rise that is approximately double the rate of inflation over 3 years? Of course they are justified in striking.

Meanwhile, in the real world....

CarbHeatIn wrote:

millionsofmiles wrote:

Considering the glee with which the BA pilots not only crossed the BA flight attendants’ picket line in 2010, but actively worked with BA management to destroy it, I hope they don’t expect any support from other unions.

BA pilots, in many cases, worked as scab flight attendants on their days off. Now it’s their turn and I bet they’re giving the flight attendants the “We are all in this together” speech.

Fortunately, people’s memories are long.

Not sure the cabin crew will be able to work as scab pilots on their days off.

Nope...but with the typical pilot self-interest, as long as the flight attendants come to work, there will be enough pilots to cross the picket line to keep the operation going. Add to that management pilots, and then the domino effect of pilots crossing either out of fear or out of greed, the pilot’s strike will quickly become yesterday’s news.

Super80Fan wrote:

What is it with European airlines and striking every other day?

Because they are fighting for their rights not to be eroded away like they are being in many places around the world.

Virtual737 wrote:

Generally the highest paid pilots in the UK are offered a rise that is approximately double the rate of inflation over 3 years? Of course they are justified in striking.

Meanwhile, in the real world....

It was pointed out to me that my comments might well not be factually correct. In which case my apologies to those that I might have paid a disservice.

Super80Fan wrote:

What is it with European airlines and striking every other day?

What is it with the industrial relations at Boeing, compared to Airbus, I know which one has had more industrial disputes in recent years.

millionsofmiles wrote:

Considering the glee with which the BA pilots not only crossed the BA flight attendants’ picket line in 2010, but actively worked with BA management to destroy it, I hope they don’t expect any support from other unions.

BA pilots, in many cases, worked as scab flight attendants on their days off. Now it’s their turn and I bet they’re giving the flight attendants the “We are all in this together” speech.

Fortunately, people’s memories are long.

I wasn't aware of that. What a despicable thing to do to your own colleagues.

The strike isn't necessarily going to go ahead. UK's High Court shall decide today.

Virtual737 wrote:

Generally the highest paid pilots in the UK are offered a rise that is approximately double the rate of inflation over 3 years? Of course they are justified in striking.

Meanwhile, in the real world....

So you are saying since most in the "real" world are being shafted, therefor everyone should just lie down and take it?

I can't comment on the case of BA pilots, since I have no knowledge about the situation, but pointing to others is rarely a constructive contribution.

Eikie wrote:

So you are saying since most in the "real" world are being shafted, therefor everyone should just lie down and take it?

I'm saying that looking around at what is happening in the wider world gives you at least an idea if what you are asking for is reasonable. A raise well above inflation is hardly lying down and taking it in the grand scheme of things.

I support this strike, a good way to fight against the over saturated LHR.

Super80Fan wrote:

What is it with European airlines and striking every other day?

What is it with certain American posters who are unable to understand the complex labor relations with airlines outside the US, every other day?

Openside007 wrote:

To add balance, I suggest that other Anetters look at the other working groups at BA who have already accepted a very similar deal to that offered to the pilots. I may be wrong but I think that all the other working groups have voted to accept their similar deals.

Adding balance to an unbalanced situation...hhhmmmm.
If the other labour groups had the leverage of the pilots to bring the operation to a screeching halt, they would not have agreed and or accepted their current contracts. It is just the way it is, those in decision making positions made desk jobs more important than physical work, in this thread one poster says it is because they look at the whole company versus a singe job, this is very true and no one disputes that.
Unfortunately, the gap in compensation is so large that it becomes easy for people to take shots at those in management positions.

Virtual737 wrote:

Eikie wrote:

So you are saying since most in the "real" world are being shafted, therefor everyone should just lie down and take it?

I'm saying that looking around at what is happening in the wider world gives you at least an idea if what you are asking for is reasonable. A raise well above inflation is hardly lying down and taking it in the grand scheme of things.

Asking the common raise is a race to the bottom.

Asking a raise related to the performance of the company is more reasonable. If BA is performing great, your raise should reflect that, not the average raise in companies you are not working for.
Why should your raise be limited just because (for example) a large steelmill didn't give a raise?

Besides that, this demand of the union might as well be based on earlier promisses or agreements which are now to be collected, resulting in a larger than average raise.

Lastly, did they reject the pay, or the total proposed deal, including the pay?
There are things I would not accept at work, regardless how many coins they throw at me. Might be that as a balance to the 11%, there is/are things they are just not willing to accept, throwing the money away with it.

IWMBH wrote:

rubberdogdo wrote:

The pilots deserve the same percentage increase as the management have received. Why is it , that it is always" management " that awards THEMSELVES pay increases and makes all the other workers settle for less ? Greed. Go get 'em Speedbird pilots.

Decision-making pays more than labor because it's more important to the entire chain. Why are pilots earning more than the ground crew? You can always look at the people above you and complain that you've less, or you just happy with the great job you have and with the more than generous wage it comes with.

Please take no offence, but that is bullshit my friend. Try sell your corporate crap elsewhere. Management gets more simply because they own the power and can decide for themselves, no other reasons there mate....

Virtual737 wrote:

Eikie wrote:

So you are saying since most in the "real" world are being shafted, therefor everyone should just lie down and take it?

I'm saying that looking around at what is happening in the wider world gives you at least an idea if what you are asking for is reasonable. A raise well above inflation is hardly lying down and taking it in the grand scheme of things.

I'm still waiting for executive management to start "looking around at what is happening in the wider world gives you at least an idea if what you are asking for is reasonable".

Executive management is supposed to provide leadership, and the example they provide is putting themselves first and using their leverage to take the company for everything they can.

It should be no surprise to them that the workers with the most leverage do the same.

Openside007 wrote:

To add balance, I suggest that other Anetters look at the other working groups at BA who have already accepted a very similar deal to that offered to the pilots. I may be wrong but I think that all the other working groups have voted to accept their similar deals.

This is incorrect. The other unions are recommending acceptance, but some of the groups are quite vocal that they are going to reject it as they disagree with the union recommendation.

bergkampsticket wrote:

millionsofmiles wrote:

Considering the glee with which the BA pilots not only crossed the BA flight attendants’ picket line in 2010, but actively worked with BA management to destroy it, I hope they don’t expect any support from other unions.

BA pilots, in many cases, worked as scab flight attendants on their days off. Now it’s their turn and I bet they’re giving the flight attendants the “We are all in this together” speech.

Fortunately, people’s memories are long.

I wasn't aware of that. What a despicable thing to do to your own colleagues.

Let me add some needed facts about the cabin crew strikes (note the plural) in 2010 including a resumption of strikes after the volcanic ash grounded all flights over the UK for six days. They caused significant disruption to BA's operation and to passengers' flights particularly at LHR and many BA employees from across all departments volunteered to help in several ways to mitigate the problems. They did things such as:
- crew support to reassure cabin crew who feared intimidation by being present at multiple locations including the crew car park, on board crew buses, at various locations at LHR (both landside and airside)
- rebooking and refunding passenger bookings in a temporary call centre set up at the Waterside HQ
- managing wet-lease flights
- driving volunteers around LHR
- becoming VCC (volunteer cabin crew) which included pilots although many (I think most) came from other departments

What eventually broke the strike was the majority of cabin crew who turned up for work and did so in increasing numbers after each strike, leading the union to realise that theirs was a lost cause.

bgm wrote:

Super80Fan wrote:

What is it with European airlines and striking every other day?

What is it with certain American posters who are unable to understand the complex labor relations with airlines outside the US, every other day?

I am far from an American airline defender, as I usually side with the US3 and concede most airlines outside the US are better than within, but if flying a non European airline to Europe you have a better chance of your flight actually arriving than with a European airline thanks to near no advance notice of strike action.

Goodbye wrote:

Super80Fan wrote:

What is it with European airlines and striking every other day?

Because they are fighting for their rights not to be eroded away like they are being in many places around the world.

Rights? Rather privileges.

How much does a pilot earn?

For comparison, the average salary in UK is about 20 000 £ and a typical teacher, middle manager in government and experienced university researcher (PhD) gets £ 31 000 - 33 000 annually.

Eikie wrote:

Asking a raise related to the performance of the company is more reasonable. If BA is performing great, your raise should reflect that, not the average raise in companies you are not working for.
Why should your raise be limited just because (for example) a large steelmill didn't give a raise?

It is OK, if you are you prepared to symmetrically lower your salary when the company is performing less great, and if every other employee in the same company up to the cleaning staff gets the same raise. Are you?

Goodbye wrote:

Super80Fan wrote:

What is it with European airlines and striking every other day?

Because they are fighting for their rights not to be eroded away like they are being in many places around the world.

Asking for further increases to salary when an annual increment surpassing inflation (note, most other UK jobs do not get this perk) is already in place is not a right, it's a privilege. Pilots are already paid really well.

I imagine they would be against a pay cut when the airline performs negatively, so why get an even higher salary increase when performance is up on top of the previously agreed increments? Sounds like greed to me.

My understand is they have to give 14 days notice and that the unions will not do this until after the court appeal has been heard.

Think about this can flight crew bring an airline to a halt. With no flight crew you can wet-lease and operate a reduce service, also if flight crew are away from home base on strike day, if they strike they get kicked out of their hotel and loose any allowances and would have to pay for there own flight home, so many will still operate back to base.

The groups that would cause most impact by strike action is Customer Service, Ramp and Engineering, this is due to the high number of people involved. Try and get 300 customer service staff each shift trained with air side passes in 14 days! No outside company can have that number of rescues sitting at home just in case.

YIMBY wrote:

Eikie wrote:

Asking a raise related to the performance of the company is more reasonable. If BA is performing great, your raise should reflect that, not the average raise in companies you are not working for.
Why should your raise be limited just because (for example) a large steelmill didn't give a raise?

It is OK, if you are you prepared to symmetrically lower your salary when the company is performing less great, and if every other employee in the same company up to the cleaning staff gets the same raise. Are you?

It depends. I would not find it strange if every employee gets the same raise in percentage, as a matter of fact, at "my" airline, that is what we usually do, ground, cockpit and cabine negotiate with management together on the big items like salary increase (obviously leaving specific items for each division). The results are (in good times) an increase which is the same for everyone in total (extra days off, more pay, less work, etc) but differing in details.

And when a few years back results were very poor, all divisions gave up something.
No salary directly (since that would be the very last resort), but in total cost. So while cockpit had allready too few pilots, the rest just worked more for the same pay. All in all, everyone in the company gave up the same percentage in "total package", the company pays less for the same or increased amount of work.

BA has just lost its Court of appeal bid.

BA in talks to avert summer pilot strike after legal defeat
Pilot strike dates are expected to be announced unless last ditch union talks are successful at the conciliation service Acas.

British Airways customers are still facing the prospect of disruption to summer holidays after the airline failed in a legal bid to block strikes by pilots.

Speaking after the Court of Appeal dismissed BA's challenge to the legality of the ballot, the Balpa union said it would not announce strike dates yet to allow further talks at the conciliation service, Acas.

https://news.sky.com/story/ba-in-talks- ... t-11774010

Quite fun listening to the judgement being handed down

Justice Simler struggling to contain her contempt for transparent timewasting by BA. A very experienced barrister and judge in employment cases.

With the union required to give 14 days notice and August a peak time for travel in the UK the Bank Holiday period could well be the target, to apply maximum pressure.

The going salary in UK is irrelevant, it's supply and demand.

readytotaxi wrote:

With the union required to give 14 days notice and August a peak time for travel in the UK the Bank Holiday period could well be the target, to apply maximum pressure.

Or the 25th- the much hyped "birthday"...

evomutant wrote:

readytotaxi wrote:

With the union required to give 14 days notice and August a peak time for travel in the UK the Bank Holiday period could well be the target, to apply maximum pressure.

Or the 25th- the much hyped "birthday"...

Indeed, that would be embarrassing.

Not much sympathy from The Telegraph: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/01/bri ... strike-go/

Sympathy from journalists won't sell newspapers. Nor does the truth. Don't believe everything you read.

Advice please...leaving on a trip to Africa (home base: YVR) from August 20th to September 15th...BA all the way. Given this potential pilot strike situation, do you think they will go ahead and strike on August 9th? Is it worth the effort to rebook on another airline or is this all smoke and mirrors posturing?

You have a couple of options.
1. Book with another carrier. I'd do this if you are inflexible on your dates.
2. Book with BA and deal with any problems. Should any BA flight be cancelled due to strike action you will always be offered the opportunity to rebook at no cost onto another flight either before or after, or to get a full refund.

The last two BA strikes saw many QR A320's and A330's operating for BA so I'm sure Alex Cruz has been on the phone to Al Baker requesting similar assistance again.

BA777FO wrote:

Sympathy from journalists won't sell newspapers. Nor does the truth. Don't believe everything you read.

Good luck in this dispute. Stick to your guns.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49203033
"We're working closely with the pilots union. Representatives of British Airways met all day yesterday with them and will meet all day today
However, he indicated that the current pay offer - which has been accepted by unions Unite and GMB - was unlikely to change.

So for those BA pilots who saying management earn more etc. is it not apple to orange comparison?

Every department and their job roles are different, their responsibilities are different, their compensations, perk etc. are different? Does it not work like that in many other businesses? So I just don't get BA pilots....£20k over 3 years is not bad at all compared to many industries.

Anyway there will be lot of Ryanair pilots which might be available after their restructuring? I have spoken to couple of BA pilots back in days and I am sure they are way better off compared to some other competitors.