KarlB737
Topic Author
Posts: 2754
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:48 pm

The members of our forum that have wondered what new design for commuter air service might be created to replace some of the older models presently used can now view an idea from Airbus. Remember this is just an idea put into a photo to stimulate thought for future design. It will be interesting to know what you think of this concept.

Courtesy: Airbus

“Our ‘Bird of Prey’ is designed to be an inspiration to young people and create a ‘wow’ factor that will help them consider an exciting career in the crucially-important aerospace sector,” explained Martin Aston, a senior manager at Airbus. “One of the priorities for the entire industry is how to make aviation more sustainable – making flying cleaner, greener and quieter than ever before. We know from our work on the A350 XWB passenger jet that through biomimicry, nature has some of the best lessons we can learn about design. Who can’t help but be inspired by such a creation?”

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en/2019/07/airbus-conceptual-airliner-to-inspire-new-generation-engineers.html
 
NiMar
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:08 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:51 pm

Well that is something new. Whoa.
 
sibibom
Posts: 395
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:21 pm

I can see all the "inspired by nature" stuff transferred from A380 to A350 as the flagship has been passed down :stirthepot:

Is this concept even feasible?
 
User avatar
clickhappy
Posts: 9133
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:10 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:10 pm

Still no cloaking device.
 
User avatar
FredrikHAD
Posts: 430
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:44 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:21 pm

clickhappy wrote:
Still no cloaking device.

Emmet is reluctant to release the flux condenser for industrial use (afraid it will be used for time travel), and as it’s needed for cloaking, it’s a no-go for now.
 
aklrno
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:18 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:35 pm

I get upset when someone touts an electric vehicle as cleaner, greener, more sustainable. It depends on where the electricity comes from, and in the US at least, its mostly fossil fuels.

My daily driver is a Tesla, but I have some gasoline cars too. I tell people I have three oil powered cars, and one coal powered car.
 
flash330
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:58 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:42 pm

aklrno wrote:
I get upset when someone touts an electric vehicle as cleaner, greener, more sustainable. It depends on where the electricity comes from, and in the US at least, its mostly fossil fuels.

My daily driver is a Tesla, but I have some gasoline cars too. I tell people I have three oil powered cars, and one coal powered car.



I hear this argument all the time, and yes there's every chance the electricty generated is from fossil fuels but that can always change, whereas petrol and diesel will always be 100% fossil fuels.
Also what would you rather drive past you on the street, a clean electric vehicle or a dirty petrol/diesel?
 
DarthLobster
Posts: 350
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:40 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:45 pm

This is just the Airbus equivalent of the Sonic Cruiser, a radical placeholder to make them look innovative until airlines are willing to plunk down money on the next generation of aircraft, all of which will look nothing like this.

Kahless would find such tactics dishonorable.
Last edited by DarthLobster on Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
jaybird
Posts: 355
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 4:23 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:48 pm

Nice .. looks like a bird .. and hopefully flies better than my birds! ;-)
 
User avatar
phlsfo
Posts: 178
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:18 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:52 pm

DarthLobster wrote:
So, this is Airbus equivalent of the Sonic Cruiser, a radical placeholder to make them look innovative until airlines are willing to plunk down money on the next generation of aircraft, all of which will look nothing like this.

Kahless would find such tactics dishonorable.


This is what drives innovation. They even say that this is basically a study as to what they can learn about flight from nature. It is not intended to be a production product. To say this is dishonorable is missing the point entirely. Do you really thing the A350, A380, and any other aircraft that Airbus made didn't have any elements that were pulled from "crazy" concepts? That is how the design process works.
 
User avatar
FredrikHAD
Posts: 430
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:44 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:19 pm

flash330 wrote:
aklrno wrote:
I get upset when someone touts an electric vehicle as cleaner, greener, more sustainable. It depends on where the electricity comes from, and in the US at least, its mostly fossil fuels.

My daily driver is a Tesla, but I have some gasoline cars too. I tell people I have three oil powered cars, and one coal powered car.



I hear this argument all the time, and yes there's every chance the electricty generated is from fossil fuels but that can always change, whereas petrol and diesel will always be 100% fossil fuels.
Also what would you rather drive past you on the street, a clean electric vehicle or a dirty petrol/diesel?

Copy that! Also, a few years ago already, electric cars were calculated to have a life cycle global warming effect that was 50 % lower than a gasoline car. Hook up some solar panels (also with low environmental impact compared to coal) and you reduce your emissions even further.
 
Shrewfly
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 1:25 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:34 pm

Interesting that they chose the Union flag as the tail design, given that they have previously been quite vocal over the relationship between the UK and EU.

Or maybe the artist was a Brit!
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:48 pm

As I pointed out in the A380 thread, the next generation of aircraft will be based on existing aircraft architectures but efficiency will be taken to the next level through different idea's in terms of energy management.
The B787 has already taken a first step with the bleedless architecture.

If you look at the A380, one of if not the most efficient aircraft in terms of fuel burn per unit of floorspace, to me it looks like a flying clothes iron.
I'm involved with innovation and I can comfortably state that if OEM's are interested in it, technology to cut fuel burn by half on something like the A380 can enter service within the next decade.
 
IADFCO
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:38 am

Very interesting, thanks for posting. A bird-inspired but reasonably realistic development would be a morphing wing, with thickness, camber, and twist continuously adapting to aircraft configuration (e.g., weight) and flight condition (e.g., speed and altitude).

The concept is not entirely new: https://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/mul ... 05-07.html

PS Did anybody notice the name of the Airbus engineer quoted in the article? His parents must have been car enthusiasts or James Bond's fans :D
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12396
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:50 am

#Sharkfin2.0
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
LaunchDetected
Posts: 246
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:42 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:01 am

DarthLobster wrote:
This is just the Airbus equivalent of the Sonic Cruiser, a radical placeholder to make them look innovative until airlines are willing to plunk down money on the next generation of aircraft, all of which will look nothing like this.

Kahless would find such tactics dishonorable.


It was done to inspire young people in great britain to pursue a career in engineering, nothing more. They are not lying about it.
Caravelle lover
 
yabeweb
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:41 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:43 am

flash330 wrote:
aklrno wrote:
I get upset when someone touts an electric vehicle as cleaner, greener, more sustainable. It depends on where the electricity comes from, and in the US at least, its mostly fossil fuels.

My daily driver is a Tesla, but I have some gasoline cars too. I tell people I have three oil powered cars, and one coal powered car.



I hear this argument all the time, and yes there's every chance the electricty generated is from fossil fuels but that can always change, whereas petrol and diesel will always be 100% fossil fuels.
Also what would you rather drive past you on the street, a clean electric vehicle or a dirty petrol/diesel?


I don't know about "clean energy", i mean solar pannel and wind station are not 0 impact (how the hell are they built?) Also , the biggest issue with electric, is BATTERY.

Where and how the hell are we gonna recycle them when the time comne? People underestimate the battery issue, wich are not 0 impact to make, and definetly won't be easy to recycle.
 
rigo
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:52 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:56 am

Seriously, what is even the point of these concepts? Creating a "wow" factor with purely arbitrary ideas that are not subject to any feasibility constraints or any engineering, technological, economical or regulatory realities is the easiest thing ever. Granted, 99% of people who work in PR and Marketing departments are not exactly geniuses, but even then... Hey, here is my own concept. A hypersonic airliner flying at Mach 20 with no sonic boom, with enough range to fly from Australia to Europe and back nonstop, using CO2 in the atmosphere and air pollution as fuel and zero emissions of anything whatsoever. Oh by the way, it costs $1, has VTOL capability and never needs any maintenance. How's that for a wow factor?
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:57 am

yabeweb wrote:
flash330 wrote:
aklrno wrote:
I get upset when someone touts an electric vehicle as cleaner, greener, more sustainable. It depends on where the electricity comes from, and in the US at least, its mostly fossil fuels.

My daily driver is a Tesla, but I have some gasoline cars too. I tell people I have three oil powered cars, and one coal powered car.



I hear this argument all the time, and yes there's every chance the electricty generated is from fossil fuels but that can always change, whereas petrol and diesel will always be 100% fossil fuels.
Also what would you rather drive past you on the street, a clean electric vehicle or a dirty petrol/diesel?


I don't know about "clean energy", i mean solar pannel and wind station are not 0 impact (how the hell are they built?) Also , the biggest issue with electric, is BATTERY.

Where and how the hell are we gonna recycle them when the time comne? People underestimate the battery issue, wich are not 0 impact to make, and definetly won't be easy to recycle.


Electric energy is still much better especially for cars and there are many reasons for that. For one, gasoline does not come out of the ground like that, the process to refine it uses massive amounts of energy. Second, the efficiency of a conventional engine is horrifically low compared to the efficiency of a oil power plant. If you change all cars to electric and use the fuel they used to run to power a oil power plant you have more than double the excess amount of energy left. On top of this it is easier to do carbon capture as well as good filtering at one power plant than at millions of cars.
 
Armadillo1
Posts: 471
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:14 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:11 am

looks too cheap PR pic.
i tried to discuss here:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1425107#p21529297
 
User avatar
BoeingVista
Posts: 1998
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:54 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:19 am

clickhappy wrote:
Still no cloaking device.


No, because Airbus is bound by The Treaty of Algeron.
BV
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15391
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:05 am

Qapla’!
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
User avatar
terrificturk
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:00 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:31 am

Tah Paa, Tah Beh! :devil:
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2289
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:52 am

As you walk up the steps to board, it is mandatory to declare "It looks like today is a good day to die"...

Look at the cut of it. Fuselage is a structural disaster, wingbox is a structural disaster. Tail is a stability and control disaster.

I guarantee there is nothing like that complete design in a wind-tunnel anywhere (although there likely are wings with feather tips on them under investigation).
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 3766
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:28 pm

flash330 wrote:
aklrno wrote:
I get upset when someone touts an electric vehicle as cleaner, greener, more sustainable. It depends on where the electricity comes from, and in the US at least, its mostly fossil fuels.

My daily driver is a Tesla, but I have some gasoline cars too. I tell people I have three oil powered cars, and one coal powered car.



I hear this argument all the time, and yes there's every chance the electricty generated is from fossil fuels but that can always change, whereas petrol and diesel will always be 100% fossil fuels.
Also what would you rather drive past you on the street, a clean electric vehicle or a dirty petrol/diesel?


I'd choose the modern, clean, efficient petrol car (euro 6d) vs any electrical-coal powered car.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
Aceskywalker
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:55 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:30 pm

Is electric aviation even possible? Weight is going to be a nightmare - take a look at ground transport: any BEV is significantly heavier than competing vehicles in its class.

Tesla is still struggling with the economics of their fully electric semi truck because of the same reasons a fully electric airplane would flop today. Tesla semis need to charge, meaning less time on the road making money. Weight from batteries means less weight from money making cargo. Take for example the Alice that 9K signed a MOU for (doubt that the type will make certification, much less be delivered en masse to the airline). 60% of MTOW is batteries. The worse prospect is turn around time; 30 minutes charging for 1 hour of block time - that significantly increases turn around time.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2274
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:43 pm

Aceskywalker wrote:
The worse prospect is turn around time; 30 minutes charging for 1 hour of block time - that significantly increases turn around time.



Modular batteries. You'd drop the old set out and place a new one on board. This is a very well understood and long since solved part of any potential electrical Aircraft in commercial use.

The other issues will be solved when they're solved. But I would not bet money on it not happening.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
Elementalism
Posts: 429
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:03 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:10 pm

aklrno wrote:
I get upset when someone touts an electric vehicle as cleaner, greener, more sustainable. It depends on where the electricity comes from, and in the US at least, its mostly fossil fuels.

My daily driver is a Tesla, but I have some gasoline cars too. I tell people I have three oil powered cars, and one coal powered car.


And where the rare earth metals for the batteries were carved out of the earth. It is an interesting conundrum. To become more green we must strip mine the earth.
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 2189
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:12 pm

I love concepts like this. They're inspiring. Which is the point.

There's too much stagnation in the aerospace industry due to grandfathering rights as well as bean counter culture.

The aerospace industry won't make any new major leaps unless they're forced to. It's not that they're incapable of it. Quite the contrary.
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1711
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:39 pm

yabeweb wrote:
I don't know about "clean energy", i mean solar pannel and wind station are not 0 impact (how the hell are they built?) Also , the biggest issue with electric, is BATTERY.

Where and how the hell are we gonna recycle them when the time comne? People underestimate the battery issue, wich are not 0 impact to make, and definetly won't be easy to recycle.


Au contraire, people such as yourself constantly overestimate the battery issue. Batteries from EVs thus far have:

1) performed far better than expected - initially it was supposed that batteries would need to be changed every couple of years (hence early EVs often involving some kind of battery lease arrangement with the manufacturer) but in practice they have been found to far outlast the vehicles themselves

2) proved to have a valuable second life as electric storage/buffer in buildings - many manufacturers (particularly the French who started early with EVs) are involved in programmes adding battery storage from repurposed EVs to large offices, public buildings, etc.

3) turned out to be very recyclable - they say the recovered products are better quality than when the battery was manufactured as a result of the ionising/deionising cycles allowing impurities to filter out

4) no shortage of raw materials, nor are they as "dirty" as people claim - cobalt is the one that grabs the headlines, but in fact only a very small proportion of that potentially comes from dubious sources
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
aumaverick
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:40 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:51 pm

terrificturk wrote:
Tah Paa, Tah Beh! :devil:


Um...definitely not, to be.
I'm just here so I won't get fined. - Marshawn Lynch
 
fanofjets
Posts: 2007
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2000 2:26 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:56 pm

Okay... When I first saw the term "biomimicry," I'll admit I had images of the onithopters of yore - the few that were able to get off the ground would "plummet with style." However, I am very intrigued by the propulsion. What kind of hybrid power plants would they be? I would like to imagine the dark patches above the wings to be built-in solar panels, providing fuel from heaven, not from hell. I have sketched similar concepts. (We would need oil back-up when the aircraft is in or under a dark could.)

I want to imagine that future generations will be able to enjoy the magic of flight as much as we all do here. Something like this design could well provide the answer. As a bonus, the passengers will have window views unobstructed by the wing.
The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2289
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:57 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Modular batteries. You'd drop the old set out and place a new one on board. This is a very well understood and long since solved part of any potential electrical Aircraft in commercial use.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Aye, very good.

So you are advocating large doors in the torque box to put them into the wings? Or are you intending to saddle up the fuselage with another XX tonnes of payload - increasing wing bending moment accordingly.

How and where to put the batteries and how to recharge them in any electric aircraft is not well understood and not long since solved.

There was another thread on this kicking around, and I ran some numbers on recharge rates - for a single aisle, assuming sufficient energy density (big assumption), you were needing to recharge in the tens (or was it hundreds) of megawatts. Per aircraft.
 
caljn
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:13 pm

sibibom wrote:
I can see all the "inspired by nature" stuff transferred from A380 to A350 as the flagship has been passed down :stirthepot:

Is this concept even feasible?



It seems to me all designs have been and are "inspired by nature".
 
User avatar
Devilfish
Posts: 6501
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:33 pm

jaybird wrote:
Nice .. looks like a bird .. and hopefully flies better than my birds! ;-)


Image
https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/get ... emid=78309

Inasmuch as Airbus is attributing mythical traits to that, they should call it the Phoenix :!: :wink2:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
StrandedAtMKG
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:51 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:23 pm

aklrno wrote:
I get upset when someone touts an electric vehicle as cleaner, greener, more sustainable. It depends on where the electricity comes from, and in the US at least, its mostly fossil fuels.

My daily driver is a Tesla, but I have some gasoline cars too. I tell people I have three oil powered cars, and one coal powered car.


https://toxmap.nlm.nih.gov/toxmap/faq/2 ... -coal.html

Only 30% of US electricity comes from coal (and at the risk of sounding like an energy industry shill, that number is falling, not rising).
 
ManoaChris
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:34 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:01 pm

aklrno wrote:
I get upset when someone touts an electric vehicle as cleaner, greener, more sustainable. It depends on where the electricity comes from, and in the US at least, its mostly fossil fuels.


It's changing - surprisingly fast. In April, for the first time, more US electricity came from renewables than coal:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/renewable- ... irst-time/

While all carbon is bad, and coal is truly awful, natural gas is about one third better, in terms of CO2 emissions, than oil:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=73&t=11

When you factor in renewables, nuclear, and the shift away from coal, US electricity, on average, is cleaner than gasoline, and the difference is getting larger over time.
 
flash330
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:58 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:56 pm

PW100 wrote:
I'd choose the modern, clean, efficient petrol car (euro 6d) vs any electrical-coal powered car.

Stand behind a petrol car while someone revving the engine, see how clean it is
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15391
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:31 pm

Devilfish wrote:
Inasmuch as Airbus is attributing mythical traits to that, they should call it the Phoenix :!: :wink2:


Nah, that name is already attributed to an existing design:

Image
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
User avatar
767333ER
Posts: 966
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:14 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:10 pm

Wait guys the 1989 effect will kick in and kill this idea off! :lol:

Well it looks... interesting, but seeing this makes me think the only bird of prey I want to fly on is a Klingon bird of prey not some electric science class experiment!
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T
 
sonicruiser
Posts: 476
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:18 pm

This is what happens when the engineers at Airbus have too much free time.
 
User avatar
FredrikHAD
Posts: 430
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:44 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:45 pm

Aceskywalker wrote:
Is electric aviation even possible? Weight is going to be a nightmare - take a look at ground transport: any BEV is significantly heavier than competing vehicles in its class.

Sure, I have previously shown that using components from the car industry in mass production right now you can convert an ATR 72 to all electric with faster (and possibly higher altitude) cruise, longer range and lower operational cost. Where do the batteries go? Who mentioned batteries? Why are people obsessed with batteries when it comes to something being ”electric”? The trick with the ATR example is to use methanol for fuel and run it through fuel cells producing electricity. You would use the normal wing tanks for the fuel (possibly replaced using materials better suited for methanol). Methanol can be produced in large volumes today, so increasing production shouldn’t be a concern.

/Fredrik
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:50 pm

This thread is a good reflection of what is going on in the industry.
Nobody knows where to go next, everybody is throwing out concepts and waiting for someone to drop the trillion dollar idea.

This is much like the period leading up to the first human flight.

If you have an idea, keep your mouth shut and take a patent on it.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2274
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:06 pm

Amiga500 wrote:

So you are advocating large doors in the torque box to put them into the wings? Or are you intending to saddle up the fuselage with another XX tonnes of payload - increasing wing bending moment accordingly.

How and where to put the batteries and how to recharge them in any electric aircraft is not well understood and not long since solved.

There was another thread on this kicking around, and I ran some numbers on recharge rates - for a single aisle, assuming sufficient energy density (big assumption), you were needing to recharge in the tens (or was it hundreds) of megawatts. Per aircraft.



That a serious question?

No, obviously more wattage than that.

And seriously? You're talking about a fictitious aircraft. Not some 737 Umpteen MAX Whatever that has shoehorning limitations. By definition, you have all the space in the world to work with. And more than a little design flexibility.
That part really isn't hard. You just design the frame around the principle that, yes, a large amount of space is slaved to a removable component, specifically designed to be swapped out in a timely manner.

That would be no harder to integrate into airport infrastructure than the invention of the K-Loader.

I'm not idle enough to sit around speculating about the feasibility of this sort of project. I just know that the aforementioned concern is literally the easiest to solve for that sort of mess. And that it's been discussed here, a few other forums, my engineering project in college, and several project studies at work. There's nothing to suggest that this somehow isn't settled.

I also didn't suggest that any of the other problems somehow weren't issues/problematic.

As for wing loading... Where do you get the idea that Batteries would be stored in the fuselage? You'd still need some weight in the wings to counter bending/flex moments, the further from the fuselage centerline, the better (there is a reason why Center Tank Fuel is always used first). Without fuel stored there, and with the space available that brings, that would be the most logical place.

But all that assumes a tube and wing structure or mild/semi BWB.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2289
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:24 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
You just design the frame around the principle that, yes, a large amount of space is slaved to a removable component, specifically designed to be swapped out in a timely manner.

I just know that the aforementioned concern is literally the easiest to solve for that sort of mess. And that it's been discussed here, a few other forums, my engineering project in college, and several project studies at work. There's nothing to suggest that this somehow isn't settled.


:rotfl:

Yeah, you design the frame around the concept of removing a large chunk of its internals - then design around that pesky thing called physics afterwards.


DarkSnowyNight wrote:
As for wing loading... Where do you get the idea that Batteries would be stored in the fuselage? You'd still need some weight in the wings to counter bending/flex moments, the further from the fuselage centerline, the better (there is a reason why Center Tank Fuel is always used first). Without fuel stored there, and with the space available that brings, that would be the most logical place.


So then you are suggesting big holes in the torque box to take batteries in and out. I'm sure the FAA and EASA would love that... as well as every stresser on the program and the aerodynamicists given the surface tolerances will be shot to hell.

I suggested they would need to be stored in the fuselage as replacing them in a structurally acceptable wing in a timely fashion is simply not viable.


-------------------------------------

A viable solution is more likely to take the form of a pumpable "liquid" - i.e. composed of nanoscale batteries. Similar buckeyball approaches have been proposed for storing H2 before and haven't hit prime time yet.

This approach would of course means existing philosophies are largely unchanged, pumpable "fuel" into a "wet" wing which is then transported via internal fuel systems to the engines for use. Dunno what a lightening strike would do for the overall system, but one step at a time.

Of course, either approach will still require airports to have access to Gigawatts of power to recharge said nanoscale batteries (or conventional scale batteries).
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 2843
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:16 am

Amiga500 wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
You just design the frame around the principle that, yes, a large amount of space is slaved to a removable component, specifically designed to be swapped out in a timely manner.

I just know that the aforementioned concern is literally the easiest to solve for that sort of mess. And that it's been discussed here, a few other forums, my engineering project in college, and several project studies at work. There's nothing to suggest that this somehow isn't settled.


:rotfl:

Yeah, you design the frame around the concept of removing a large chunk of its internals - then design around that pesky thing called physics afterwards.


Well we currently go around in pressurised metal or plastic tubes at 500+mph at an altitude where both the pressure and temperature are not conducive to maintaining human life and protected from this by 1mm of aluminium. The machine is propelled through the air by two (or more) more or less separate machines that are simultaneously spinning at several thousand revolutions per minute whist filled with gasses hotter than the melting point of the materials they are made from whilst being suspended from Wings that are undergoing major shock interactions of the air flowing over them and filled with flammable liquid. They are controlled by either a gyroscope so sensitive it can sense the motion of the earth whilst the aircraft is rolling or using series of satellites that use time so accurately they need to take account of the mass of the earth affecting the speed of light to triangulate the position to within millimeters. All of this is is done to a precision of minutes over several hours of flight whilst knowing winds and temperatures throughout the atmosphere and aligning to a complex supply and logistics chain so that there is an almost unbroken chain for door to door delivery allowing people to sit so comfortably and mundanely that they can complain about the quality of the champagne and noise cancelling headphones.

However if physics tells us we cannot have a removable battery then I guess it must be so...
Amiga500 wrote:


DarkSnowyNight wrote:
As for wing loading... Where do you get the idea that Batteries would be stored in the fuselage? You'd still need some weight in the wings to counter bending/flex moments, the further from the fuselage centerline, the better (there is a reason why Center Tank Fuel is always used first). Without fuel stored there, and with the space available that brings, that would be the most logical place.


So then you are suggesting big holes in the torque box to take batteries in and out. I'm sure the FAA and EASA would love that... as well as every stresser on the program and the aerodynamicists given the surface tolerances will be shot to hell.


Do birds have torque boxes?

Amiga500 wrote:

I suggested they would need to be stored in the fuselage as replacing them in a structurally acceptable wing in a timely fashion is simply not viable.
How do you know?
Amiga500 wrote:


-------------------------------------

A viable solution is more likely to take the form of a pumpable "liquid" - i.e. composed of nanoscale batteries. Similar buckeyball approaches have been proposed for storing H2 before and haven't hit prime time yet.

This approach would of course means existing philosophies are largely unchanged, pumpable "fuel" into a "wet" wing which is then transported via internal fuel systems to the engines for use. Dunno what a lightening strike would do for the overall system, but one step at a time.


You dismiss the other scenarios but this one is fine, where I work we call this "ugly baby syndrome".

Amiga500 wrote:
Of course, either approach will still require airports to have access to Gigawatts of power to recharge said nanoscale batteries (or conventional scale batteries).


Well they currently have Gigawatts of power in the form of chemical energy, we are just talking about having this available through electrical supply, this is done in many parts of the world particularly in large industrial chemical complexes.

Fred
Image
 
Strato2
Posts: 431
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:49 am

This plane looks less crazy than a B2 and the latter has flown before there was WWW or GSM.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 1559
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:21 am

I expect Boeings NSA to be hybrid electric.

If this design had conventional winglets and a normal tail it would be quite realistic.

Big electric motors in the wings. 1 hour or 400nm range of battery capacity. A single gas turbine generator in the tail can act as a range extender.

The range extender does not need to be sized to provide all of the electricity for takeoff as the battery can help in the climb. The generator only has to be big enough provide enough electricity at cruise. This design will allow a smaller gas turbine and the batteries capacity will only need to be a fraction of the size of a non hybrid electric design.

As battery technology improves the electric only range of the design increases.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1740
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:30 am

phlsfo wrote:
DarthLobster wrote:
So, this is Airbus equivalent of the Sonic Cruiser, a radical placeholder to make them look innovative until airlines are willing to plunk down money on the next generation of aircraft, all of which will look nothing like this.

Kahless would find such tactics dishonorable.


This is what drives innovation. They even say that this is basically a study as to what they can learn about flight from nature. It is not intended to be a production product. To say this is dishonorable is missing the point entirely. Do you really thing the A350, A380, and any other aircraft that Airbus made didn't have any elements that were pulled from "crazy" concepts? That is how the design process works.

I wish they would spend the time on hypersonic transport instead of this crap.
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 3766
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Airbus Reveals Hybrid-Electric 'Bird Of Prey' Airliner Concept

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:34 pm

flash330 wrote:
PW100 wrote:
I'd choose the modern, clean, efficient petrol car (euro 6d) vs any electrical-coal powered car.

Stand behind a petrol car while someone revving the engine, see how clean it is

After you, when you have removed your head from the coal plant chimney . . .
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos