delta777er
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Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:46 pm

To me it makes a lot of sense for WN to expand with the bigger versions of the MAX. With the MAX 9 they could put 200 seats exactly and not have to put in another flight attendant. For the MAX 10 they could put ~215 seats. Both especially the MAX 10 seem perfect for Hawaii services and more longer services from LAS/LAX/OAK. Is it only because of short runways at MDW/SNA? Would love to hear your thoughts.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:27 pm

Southwest will operate hundreds of MAXs for decades to come. Yes, some of them will be MAX 10s. Runway constraints in BUR/MDW/SNA aren't disqualifying when thousands of WN flights a day don't use those airports. Plenty of WN airport pairs have very elastic demand to fill the extra ~40 seats: NYC/BOS/CHI-MCO/FLL, CHI-LAX, DEN-LAX...
 
Busyboy2
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:47 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Southwest will operate hundreds of MAXs for decades to come. Yes, some of them will be MAX 10s. Runway constraints in BUR/MDW/SNA aren't disqualifying when thousands of WN flights a day don't use those airports. Plenty of WN airport pairs have very elastic demand to fill the extra ~40 seats: NYC/BOS/CHI-MCO/FLL, CHI-LAX, DEN-LAX...


What are your sources to suggest the WN will ever get Max 10's?
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:02 pm

In 2006 there was a vote on a replacement airport for the single runway airport in San Diego. As Southwest is the major carrier, a big part of the analysis on runway congestion was hinged on the belief that Southwest would never fly very many of the B737-800 with 175 seats, and would always fly a 143 seat jet. I remember this expert from Embry Riddle that said Southwest's entire business model was built around interchangeable jets and they all had to have the same number of seats. During the 2001-2005 time period Boeing was selling the initial version of the B737-900.

Southwest was actually placing a few orders for the -800 variant
3. Jul. 2003 4
31. Aug. 2005 6
20. Apr. 2006 25

At the same time they were still placing the bulk of their orders for the -700
20. Apr. 2006 54

The airport measure was voted down in November 2006, but Southwest adopted the -800 variant for over 200 jets. The average size of the jets increased radically at San Diego Airport, and the runway is still not congested.

So, yes I assume Southwest will move the MAX-10 at some point in the future.
 
GalebG4
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:27 pm

WN will for sure get MAX 9,10 but in my opinion perfect airplane for WN is an Airbus A220. A220-100 would be perfect as 737-500 successor while a220-300 would be 737-700 successor. We need to take into account Moxie which tells us that US is still perfect market for 150 seats airplane. Now WN history is written and 737 is their future as it was before but if Boeing has taken a220 instead of Airbus who knows what would be happening with 737 max grounding. I’m not telling the 737 is bad in any form, but in my opinion a220 is more optimized for WN service. And to stop Boeing defenders, 737 will be 100% only airplane in colors of WN, MAX 10 and 9 are 100% going into fleet but for upgauge you need time which WN has. Remember WN had only 700 ng’s then WN upgraded to 800. Same thing will happen with max9,10 over time. What would be interesting is to see 10 to 20 leased a321XLR in WN colors flying to Europe before 797 as market insider for trans Atlantic long haul. That way WN can try both Airbus and Boeing and see how that particular market works from BWI as WN trans Atlantic hub. Also special version of 797 could be used from MDW to fly trans Atlantic that way Boeing still has an edge when it comes to NMA if we don’t take time into account.
 
xxcr
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:16 am

I'm sure the MAX9/10 will find a way into WN's fleet, maybe in like 5 years. Time will tell
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:23 am

GalebG4 wrote:
WN will for sure get MAX 9,10 but in my opinion perfect airplane for WN is an Airbus A220. A220-100 would be perfect as 737-500 successor while a220-300 would be 737-700 successor. We need to take into account Moxie which tells us that US is still perfect market for 150 seats airplane. Now WN history is written and 737 is their future as it was before but if Boeing has taken a220 instead of Airbus who knows what would be happening with 737 max grounding. I’m not telling the 737 is bad in any form, but in my opinion a220 is more optimized for WN service. And to stop Boeing defenders, 737 will be 100% only airplane in colors of WN, MAX 10 and 9 are 100% going into fleet but for upgauge you need time which WN has. Remember WN had only 700 ng’s then WN upgraded to 800. Same thing will happen with max9,10 over time. What would be interesting is to see 10 to 20 leased a321XLR in WN colors flying to Europe before 797 as market insider for trans Atlantic long haul. That way WN can try both Airbus and Boeing and see how that particular market works from BWI as WN trans Atlantic hub. Also special version of 797 could be used from MDW to fly trans Atlantic that way Boeing still has an edge when it comes to NMA if we don’t take time into account.

I agree with the premise, and I personally hope for the 220 order, but with Boeing teaming up with Embraer I'd say that potential order more favors the E2.
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DenverTed
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:48 am

The -9 and the -10 aren't flying out of Midway. I could see the -10 with 200 seats for other airports with longer runways on trunk routes. The longshot would be if they put the gear of the -10 on the -9, then WN could operate that out of Midway if the -9 got better field performance.
 
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:01 am

Busyboy2 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Southwest will operate hundreds of MAXs for decades to come. Yes, some of them will be MAX 10s. Runway constraints in BUR/MDW/SNA aren't disqualifying when thousands of WN flights a day don't use those airports. Plenty of WN airport pairs have very elastic demand to fill the extra ~40 seats: NYC/BOS/CHI-MCO/FLL, CHI-LAX, DEN-LAX...


What are your sources to suggest the WN will ever get Max 10's?


Context. It's more than just a concept. Compare it to Literal.
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strfyr51
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:41 am

GalebG4 wrote:
WN will for sure get MAX 9,10 but in my opinion perfect airplane for WN is an Airbus A220. A220-100 would be perfect as 737-500 successor while a220-300 would be 737-700 successor. We need to take into account Moxie which tells us that US is still perfect market for 150 seats airplane. Now WN history is written and 737 is their future as it was before but if Boeing has taken a220 instead of Airbus who knows what would be happening with 737 max grounding. I’m not telling the 737 is bad in any form, but in my opinion a220 is more optimized for WN service. And to stop Boeing defenders, 737 will be 100% only airplane in colors of WN, MAX 10 and 9 are 100% going into fleet but for upgauge you need time which WN has. Remember WN had only 700 ng’s then WN upgraded to 800. Same thing will happen with max9,10 over time. What would be interesting is to see 10 to 20 leased a321XLR in WN colors flying to Europe before 797 as market insider for trans Atlantic long haul. That way WN can try both Airbus and Boeing and see how that particular market works from BWI as WN trans Atlantic hub. Also special version of 797 could be used from MDW to fly trans Atlantic that way Boeing still has an edge when it comes to NMA if we don’t take time into account.

Isn't WN dead set on Commonality in Parts for their Airplanes in their Business Model? If what you say is Valid they wouldn't have sold all those 717's to Delta would they? Are you certain or are you wishing?
 
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:54 am

DenverTed wrote:
The -9 and the -10 aren't flying out of Midway. I could see the -10 with 200 seats for other airports with longer runways on trunk routes. The longshot would be if they put the gear of the -10 on the -9, then WN could operate that out of Midway if the -9 got better field performance.


Given the nature of WN's system, they don't have to fly out of MDW. The -10 is a logical progression for many of it's high volume routes that don't need to touch MDW.
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:15 am

WN has a history of particular AC not flying to a station. They stopped flying the -300s to MDW for a few years before retirement.
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:20 am

Expect the -10 with 200 seats, likely no -9's.
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:07 am

I am not so sure that WN would not select the MAX 10 over the MAX 9. Right now, WN operates the 738/(grounded)7M8 with 175 seats at 32"-33" seat pitch. A 7M9 would be 195 seats or so in a 32" configuration, while a 7MJ could be 200, but with 33" seat pitch (the MAX 10 is a 2-row stretch over the MAX 9), virtually unheard of in Y in the USA unless you're talking about B6. Would that be too much legroom? I see this as a toss-up over which they get (and I would be surprised if some MAX 8 orders don't get converted once the MAX is flying again).
 
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:13 am

strfyr51 wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
WN will for sure get MAX 9,10 but in my opinion perfect airplane for WN is an Airbus A220. A220-100 would be perfect as 737-500 successor while a220-300 would be 737-700 successor. We need to take into account Moxie which tells us that US is still perfect market for 150 seats airplane. Now WN history is written and 737 is their future as it was before but if Boeing has taken a220 instead of Airbus who knows what would be happening with 737 max grounding. I’m not telling the 737 is bad in any form, but in my opinion a220 is more optimized for WN service. And to stop Boeing defenders, 737 will be 100% only airplane in colors of WN, MAX 10 and 9 are 100% going into fleet but for upgauge you need time which WN has. Remember WN had only 700 ng’s then WN upgraded to 800. Same thing will happen with max9,10 over time. What would be interesting is to see 10 to 20 leased a321XLR in WN colors flying to Europe before 797 as market insider for trans Atlantic long haul. That way WN can try both Airbus and Boeing and see how that particular market works from BWI as WN trans Atlantic hub. Also special version of 797 could be used from MDW to fly trans Atlantic that way Boeing still has an edge when it comes to NMA if we don’t take time into account.

Isn't WN dead set on Commonality in Parts for their Airplanes in their Business Model? If what you say is Valid they wouldn't have sold all those 717's to Delta would they? Are you certain or are you wishing?

I agree, that is why it is inevitable that in future they are getting new aircraft type. 797, Airbus or new Boeing narrow body in 10 years period.
 
bob75013
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:34 pm

GalebG4 wrote:
WN will for sure get MAX 9,10 but in my opinion perfect airplane for WN is an Airbus A220. A220-100 would be perfect as 737-500 successor .


Since WN doesn't fly any 500's, what does this have to do with WN?
 
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:15 pm

bob75013 wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
WN will for sure get MAX 9,10 but in my opinion perfect airplane for WN is an Airbus A220. A220-100 would be perfect as 737-500 successor .


Since WN doesn't fly any 500's, what does this have to do with WN?


They used to, but since they haven't had anything in the -200/-500 size range in a while so I don't feel like they need it anymore. -700 is dominant in their fleet now with plenty of -800s, and I see that trend continuing. Note that the majority of their order for MAXs is for the -8 with a small number of -7s.
 
jplatts
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:34 pm

bob75013 wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
WN will for sure get MAX 9,10 but in my opinion perfect airplane for WN is an Airbus A220. A220-100 would be perfect as 737-500 successor .


Since WN doesn't fly any 500's, what does this have to do with WN?


WN was still flying the 737-500's on nonstop routes to and from legacy markets in Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Louisiana until WN retired its last 737-500's in September 2016.

There are still some smaller markets in Texas and the Florida Panhandle where WN needs planes smaller than the 737-800 and 737 MAX 8. There are also some airports with short runways such as BUR, SNA, and MDW where the 737-700 and 737 MAX 7 are a better fit.
 
ewt340
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:51 pm

Not sure about this, remember, B737-700 with 143 seat were the standard for WN for a really long time. Until recent years, they are still upgrading their capacity with B737-800 with 175 seats,

Until they successfully upgraded majority of their routes with B737-800 and MAX8. I don't think larger aircraft would make much sense even for hawaii routes.

Besides, what we need to understand is the fact that WN is an old player. They had tons of slots that they acquired for decades. Unlike many new airlines, it's not much of a problem for them in terms of slots restrictions. So adding extra flights seems more plausible rather than using larger aircraft.

Remember, frequency trumps capacity, especially for airlines like WN.
 
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:12 pm

One issue for WN & the MAX 9/10 is that many of their gates are built based on a specific length of aircraft and as I recall there were issues at some airports with expanding to the 800. For the legacy carriers, most of their gates were setup to accommodate the 757 or 321 so it isn't as big of an issue.
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KlimaBXsst
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:07 pm

The technology they have developed for the MAX 10 will be applied to the -37 8.5. No 737-9200, or 737-10200
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bob75013
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:55 pm

jplatts wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
WN will for sure get MAX 9,10 but in my opinion perfect airplane for WN is an Airbus A220. A220-100 would be perfect as 737-500 successor .


Since WN doesn't fly any 500's, what does this have to do with WN?


WN was still flying the 737-500's on nonstop routes to and from legacy markets in Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Louisiana until WN retired its last 737-500's in September 2016.

There are still some smaller markets in Texas and the Florida Panhandle where WN needs planes smaller than the 737-800 and 737 MAX 8. There are also some airports with short runways such as BUR, SNA, and MDW where the 737-700 and 737 MAX 7 are a better fit.


I hate to tell you this, but 2016 is ancient history in the airline industry. So why would WN have retired it's 500s? Think the answer might be "They were no longer useful?"
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:32 pm

alasizon wrote:
One issue for WN & the MAX 9/10 is that many of their gates are built based on a specific length of aircraft and as I recall there were issues at some airports with expanding to the 800. For the legacy carriers, most of their gates were setup to accommodate the 757 or 321 so it isn't as big of an issue.


I've been screaming this from the rooftop for many months now. If Boeing puts the -10 gear on the -9 , the -9 will be Southwest colors at 200 seats. The increase in cost will be marginal. 25 more seats would more than cover the increase in costs.

strfyr51 wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
WN will for sure get MAX 9,10 but in my opinion perfect airplane for WN is an Airbus A220. A220-100 would be perfect as 737-500 successor while a220-300 would be 737-700 successor. We need to take into account Moxie which tells us that US is still perfect market for 150 seats airplane. Now WN history is written and 737 is their future as it was before but if Boeing has taken a220 instead of Airbus who knows what would be happening with 737 max grounding. I’m not telling the 737 is bad in any form, but in my opinion a220 is more optimized for WN service. And to stop Boeing defenders, 737 will be 100% only airplane in colors of WN, MAX 10 and 9 are 100% going into fleet but for upgauge you need time which WN has. Remember WN had only 700 ng’s then WN upgraded to 800. Same thing will happen with max9,10 over time. What would be interesting is to see 10 to 20 leased a321XLR in WN colors flying to Europe before 797 as market insider for trans Atlantic long haul. That way WN can try both Airbus and Boeing and see how that particular market works from BWI as WN trans Atlantic hub. Also special version of 797 could be used from MDW to fly trans Atlantic that way Boeing still has an edge when it comes to NMA if we don’t take time into account.

Isn't WN dead set on Commonality in Parts for their Airplanes in their Business Model? If what you say is Valid they wouldn't have sold all those 717's to Delta would they? Are you certain or are you wishing?


Southwest's analysis stated that 717s cost about the same as the 73G to operate...with 26 fewer seats. The A220, on the other hand, cost way less to operate

EvanWSFO wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
The -9 and the -10 aren't flying out of Midway. I could see the -10 with 200 seats for other airports with longer runways on trunk routes. The longshot would be if they put the gear of the -10 on the -9, then WN could operate that out of Midway if the -9 got better field performance.


Given the nature of WN's system, they don't have to fly out of MDW. The -10 is a logical progression for many of it's high volume routes that don't need to touch MDW.

southwest1675 wrote:
WN has a history of particular AC not flying to a station. They stopped flying the -300s to MDW for a few years before retirement.


I disagree, I don't see WN's (hypothetical) largest plane not being able to operate out of their largest station. I think that's a non-starter. This is why I think -9 with -10 gear would be favored

KlimaBXsst wrote:
The technology they have developed for the MAX 10 will be applied to the -37 8.5. No 737-9200, or 737-10200


I assume you're referencing the landing gear?

DenverTed wrote:
The -9 and the -10 aren't flying out of Midway. I could see the -10 with 200 seats for other airports with longer runways on trunk routes. The longshot would be if they put the gear of the -10 on the -9, then WN could operate that out of Midway if the -9 got better field performance.


A lot of WN gates barely fit the 738. But most stations have a few gates where there is space to modify them to accommodate the additional 8.6 ft and/or 14 ft required for the Max 9 and/or Max 10
 
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:41 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
One issue for WN & the MAX 9/10 is that many of their gates are built based on a specific length of aircraft and as I recall there were issues at some airports with expanding to the 800. For the legacy carriers, most of their gates were setup to accommodate the 757 or 321 so it isn't as big of an issue.


A lot of WN gates barely fit the 738. But most stations have a few gates where there is space to modify them to accommodate the additional 8.6 ft and/or 14 ft required for the Max 9 and/or Max 10


All 20 of the gates of the current passenger terminal at DAL can probably accommodate the 737 MAX 9, 737 MAX 10, and A321 since these models are shorter in length than the MD-80's. The DAL passenger terminal was likely designed to accommodate the MD-80's since AA originally had plans to operate out of DAL subsequent to repeal of the Wright Amendment until it was required by the DOJ to give up its 2 gates at DAL until 2024.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:12 pm

Yes... Boeing found a minimum change solution to the main landing gear....

Maybe something similar could be applied to the forward to get the engines off the ground and generate a more favorable aerodynamic return without the computer assist help of MCAS to keep the plane flying.

It would be foolish for Boeing to think we are in the same generation as the 50s... information society and information technology has changed and the MAX is a bit of a tarnished product as it is, without changes the so public can differentiate it from a new and improved 737 non max.

Yes the public is information fickle but all it takes is a small incident or rumor to set the internet on fire with a tweet or trend like, until the next change of underwear and the next days meme of the day.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:14 pm

Plus a 737

8200,9200, and 10200 series just doesn’t sound good.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
Sooner787
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:24 pm

I saw pics awhile back of the first -10 fuselage outside the Renton factory,
has that first frame been assembled yet?
 
Bradin
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:46 pm

I think Southwest is looking more so for gate commonality - being able to slide an aircraft into the gate space they have. They have constraints on the width and length and they're looking to maximize the number of gates, aircraft, and passengers they can push in in a fixed area.

To that end, there's also considerations that would impact aircraft size, such as being able to turn around an aircraft. I get that 200 seat plane sounds fabulous on paper, but what about the turn around cost? For all we know there's an increase of 30 minutes going to 200 seats. Southwest's ability to turn around a plane famous in 30 minutes isn't usually possible on a 737-800.

Sure, an additional 20 passengers per plane might be great, but it could also mean a cost of a few 737-700s carrying 143 passengers - trading a big load for smaller load.
 
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keesje
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:53 pm

I think the 737-8 and A223 might be good combo replacing 737-700 and 737-800.
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alasizon
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:05 pm

jplatts wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
One issue for WN & the MAX 9/10 is that many of their gates are built based on a specific length of aircraft and as I recall there were issues at some airports with expanding to the 800. For the legacy carriers, most of their gates were setup to accommodate the 757 or 321 so it isn't as big of an issue.


A lot of WN gates barely fit the 738. But most stations have a few gates where there is space to modify them to accommodate the additional 8.6 ft and/or 14 ft required for the Max 9 and/or Max 10


All 20 of the gates of the current passenger terminal at DAL can probably accommodate the 737 MAX 9, 737 MAX 10, and A321 since these models are shorter in length than the MD-80's. The DAL passenger terminal was likely designed to accommodate the MD-80's since AA originally had plans to operate out of DAL subsequent to repeal of the Wright Amendment until it was required by the DOJ to give up its 2 gates at DAL until 2024.


I just did a spot check with Google Earth and I counted twelve gates in DAL that would require relocating the service road to accomodate the MAX9/10. It looks to me like they could simply adjust the service road on the even side of the terminal but gates 3,5,7 &9 aren't a simple adjustment as then you infringe on the taxilane for the aircraft to get into those gates.
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ACCS300
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:06 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Plus a 737

8200,9200, and 10200 series just doesn’t sound good.


Neither does MAX these days.
 
Pontius
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:35 pm

bob75013 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

Since WN doesn't fly any 500's, what does this have to do with WN?


WN was still flying the 737-500's on nonstop routes to and from legacy markets in Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Louisiana until WN retired its last 737-500's in September 2016.

There are still some smaller markets in Texas and the Florida Panhandle where WN needs planes smaller than the 737-800 and 737 MAX 8. There are also some airports with short runways such as BUR, SNA, and MDW where the 737-700 and 737 MAX 7 are a better fit.


I hate to tell you this, but 2016 is ancient history in the airline industry. So why would WN have retired it's 500s? Think the answer might be "They were no longer useful?"


Just for starters:
1: FAA insistence that pilots could operate Classic/NG, NG/Max, but not all three simultaneously.
2: The 737-500 fuel burn is likely equal to or worse than a MAX8.
3: They were getting old. (Operational reliability, aging a/c inspections, avionics deadlines)

In a perfect world I'm sure SWA would love the flexibility of a smaller narrowbody. What doubtless gives them pause is the almost inevitably higher CASM and the usual complexities of a mixed fleet.
 
bob75013
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Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:49 am

Pontius wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
jplatts wrote:

WN was still flying the 737-500's on nonstop routes to and from legacy markets in Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Louisiana until WN retired its last 737-500's in September 2016.

There are still some smaller markets in Texas and the Florida Panhandle where WN needs planes smaller than the 737-800 and 737 MAX 8. There are also some airports with short runways such as BUR, SNA, and MDW where the 737-700 and 737 MAX 7 are a better fit.


I hate to tell you this, but 2016 is ancient history in the airline industry. So why would WN have retired it's 500s? Think the answer might be "They were no longer useful?"


Just for starters:
1: FAA insistence that pilots could operate Classic/NG, NG/Max, but not all three simultaneously.
2: The 737-500 fuel burn is likely equal to or worse than a MAX8.
3: They were getting old. (Operational reliability, aging a/c inspections, avionics deadlines)

In a perfect world I'm sure SWA would love the flexibility of a smaller narrowbody. What doubtless gives them pause is the almost inevitably higher CASM and the usual complexities of a mixed fleet.


Your point 1 doesn't answer why the 500's were dropped in 2016. It does explain why 500's would have been dropped in 2018 as were the 300's.

The 500s were dropped in 2016 becasue they no longer made economic sense.
 
ewt340
Posts: 839
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:43 am

bob75013 wrote:
Pontius wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

I hate to tell you this, but 2016 is ancient history in the airline industry. So why would WN have retired it's 500s? Think the answer might be "They were no longer useful?"


Just for starters:
1: FAA insistence that pilots could operate Classic/NG, NG/Max, but not all three simultaneously.
2: The 737-500 fuel burn is likely equal to or worse than a MAX8.
3: They were getting old. (Operational reliability, aging a/c inspections, avionics deadlines)

In a perfect world I'm sure SWA would love the flexibility of a smaller narrowbody. What doubtless gives them pause is the almost inevitably higher CASM and the usual complexities of a mixed fleet.


Your point 1 doesn't answer why the 500's were dropped in 2016. It does explain why 500's would have been dropped in 2018 as were the 300's.

The 500s were dropped in 2016 becasue they no longer made economic sense.


OR it reached their cycles you know. Sometimes they just need to be retired.
 
bob75013
Posts: 905
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:59 pm

ewt340 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Pontius wrote:

Just for starters:
1: FAA insistence that pilots could operate Classic/NG, NG/Max, but not all three simultaneously.
2: The 737-500 fuel burn is likely equal to or worse than a MAX8.
3: They were getting old. (Operational reliability, aging a/c inspections, avionics deadlines)

In a perfect world I'm sure SWA would love the flexibility of a smaller narrowbody. What doubtless gives them pause is the almost inevitably higher CASM and the usual complexities of a mixed fleet.


Your point 1 doesn't answer why the 500's were dropped in 2016. It does explain why 500's would have been dropped in 2018 as were the 300's.

The 500s were dropped in 2016 becasue they no longer made economic sense.


OR it reached their cycles you know. Sometimes they just need to be retired.


Boeing did create an NG version of the 500. It was called the 600. If WN had needed/wanted a plane smaller than the 300/700, it could have ordered the 600.

It did not.
 
Pontius
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:19 pm

Re: Will WN ever order the 737 MAX 9 or MAX 10?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:22 am

bob75013 wrote:
Pontius wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

I hate to tell you this, but 2016 is ancient history in the airline industry. So why would WN have retired it's 500s? Think the answer might be "They were no longer useful?"


Just for starters:
1: FAA insistence that pilots could operate Classic/NG, NG/Max, but not all three simultaneously.
2: The 737-500 fuel burn is likely equal to or worse than a MAX8.
3: They were getting old. (Operational reliability, aging a/c inspections, avionics deadlines)

In a perfect world I'm sure SWA would love the flexibility of a smaller narrowbody. What doubtless gives them pause is the almost inevitably higher CASM and the usual complexities of a mixed fleet.


Your point 1 doesn't answer why the 500's were dropped in 2016. It does explain why 500's would have been dropped in 2018 as were the 300's.

The 500s were dropped in 2016 becasue they no longer made economic sense.


Your first assertion was that the 500s "were no longer useful." High frequency intra-TX or P2P East Coast applications prove the utility, or usefulness of a smaller A/C. Upon challenge, your assertion became "no longer made economic sense." Which is exactly why I highlighted the "almost inevitably higher CASM." A smaller aircraft is great if you can keep the CASM down. Reference the A220, the jury is still out as to what it's CASM actually is.

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