lat41
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:45 pm

STT757 wrote:
Surprised they’re not dropping ISP.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

ISP easy in/out and cheap to operate at. EWR anything but.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:49 pm

enilria wrote:
avi8 wrote:
Glad to see Southwest focusing on profits and not being ashamed of closing a station. Business is business and their results reflect that. They will still serve the NYC metro area at La Guardia, where they have 30+ flights a day. Maybe there’s something in the works to gain a few extra slots?

It's not about shame. It's about the loss of business travelers. If you have a station that loses money, but dropping it causes a bunch of big buck travelers to drop out of your ecosystem/FFP/etc because you can't get them to New York as effectively any more then it is a money losing decision. Something as big as this causes secondary impacts. Very few road warriors are going to abandon them if they close ISP or GSP.


Yeah, but what's the evidence that business travelers care about whether WN serves EWR? In many years of flying WN extensively for work, I think I've used WN once, for a trip to Short Hills, New Jersey. I have never used WN (or UA) to EWR for NYC travel. So unless WN has a bunch of business travelers clamoring for access to New Jersey or certain parts of Manhattan, it may not move the needle much.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
freakyrat
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:56 pm

dmg626 wrote:
[threeid][/threeid][quote="Weatherwatcher1"

EWR is also a disaster for flow control. Any airplane that touches the airport after 3pm might as well be assumed to be 2 hours or more late for the rest of the day. That certainly hurts profitability. Not only is EWR marginally profitable, it is forcing delays and cancellations into the network


Usually afternoon and evening flights are scheduled as turns for flight crews so as not to screw up someone’s whole trip[/quote]

This is what caused UA to drop most Regional Jet connecting flights in and out of EWR even full flights that were profitable and shift that operation to IAD.
 
Brickell305
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:57 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
alpine1989 wrote:
Let us not forget Southwest has previously retreated from some large markets/mega hubs in the including DEN, IAH and SFO. They don't serve DFW, MIA or ORD. I'd hardly say the sky is falling because EWR is being dropped in favor of a higher priority market.


*clears throat* …..you do realize which WN stations are in all of those metro areas....right? Hardly an apples to apples comparison

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
alggag wrote:
I would have expected to see IAD or ISP close first.


Why ISP? Long Island has a fairly large population and Southwest has very little competition. It fits perfectly with plenty of demand to Florida.


Since when did population have to do with anything?

We are literally in a thread discussing WN pulling out of an airport in the largest metro area in the US.

The real question is whether or not the operation is performing well, and whether it is a station that is an essential to serve. Not sure WN basically only flying ISP-Florida makes the station essential to have in WN's network....

Re the metro areas though, by that logic, WN still serves LGA sothey are still very much in the metro area.
 
tphuang
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:57 pm

as I put in the new jersey thread a while back
No, they are doing well (above system average) on two routes out of EWR, STL and DEN.

After that, they do okay on MDW and PHX.

Everything else looses money. OAK is a disaster thus far. They are not ready to jump on a route like LAX or even SMF. That's too hard for WN out of NYC area.

The reason is the result. They struggle with almost every route they launched there outside of PHX and STL. LGA is slightly more profitable for them so that's their main NYC station now. Just picking a day in late September, I see 17 flights for them (SAN seems to be cut + BNA 3x daily is added). That's pretty weak. I don't see what else they could even add at this point. EWR-Florida/MSY isn't going to work if MCO/FLL perfomed so badly. LAS isn't going to work if OAK is a struggle.

This BWI-EWR is just WN's latest attempt to find a way to find routes out of EWR without haemorrhaging money. They've already cut MCO, FLL and IND just this year. OAK and SAN are doing very poorly. So now they've settled on the option of connecting their biggest stations to EWR on top of LGA. BNA at least makes sense to me. BWI makes very little sense. There is no O&D if you consider how close the two airports are and how often EWR gets delayed. This is not Texas, how wants to risk a 2 hour delay at EWR when you can take the train there for the same time?

Everywhere else, you can fly to vast majority of those places direct. So unless you are just a WN loyalists (very few around EWR), you are only connecting at BWI if it's really cheap.

As for non-stop flights to BHM, ABQ, LIT, you can just drive to BWI to fly out of there or connect at ATL or CLT. There are far more options connecting at ATL/CLT than at BWI.

To me, this is WN trying to use its 3 gates and possibly preparing for EWR reinstating slots.


And now WN is gone. Even I'm shocked they are giving up completely at EWR. What's the point of keeping ISP open now?

Is this the biggest station closure since UA at JFK? I would think so.

UA must be happy. I hope they don't get subleased those gates. It should go to B6/NK/F9 or whoever is willing to put up some more competition vs UA.

Com'on B6, you have been gate constrained at EWR. This is as good of an opportunity as any to add gate/slots.
 
EK77WNH
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:01 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
EK77WNH wrote:
As the DL/B6 battle grows at Boston, I wonder if they’d pull the plug there, too.


Still hoping they'll return to MHT in a big way? Forget it. BOS gets up to 37 departures to 15 cities; MHT is 1/3 of that - and they have 5 gates at MHT!


No, I'm beyond hoping for that. I was just wondering if the 'big-airport' strategy for WN was showing some cracks.
Next Trip:
JAL 7-8 BOS-NRT-BOS, 787-9
September
 
nycbjr
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:06 pm

According to Flight Global its the max..

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... rk-459912/

I tend to side with the experts in this thread sounds like a convient excuse.
 
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TWA302
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:07 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
EWR is also a disaster for flow control. Any airplane that touches the airport after 3pm might as well be assumed to be 2 hours or more late for the rest of the day. That certainly hurts profitability. Not only is EWR marginally profitable, it is forcing delays and cancellations into the network

My personal opinion is THIS is the real reason they're pulling chocks. The MAX delays are the easy scapegoat. Hope all the EWR flyers can stomach the drastic fare increases from UA.


I don't know about the financials, but I will, as a WN frequent flyer avoid EWR at all costs on. I travel to NJ for work once or twice a month from STL and will ALWAYS depart out of PHL back home. The delays out of EWR in the evening are insane and I can't tell you. Just check out WN465. That flight is delayed 65% of the time with an AVERAGE of 75 minutes.. Good riddance to EWR. I won't miss it at all.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:07 pm

jplatts wrote:
EK77WNH wrote:
As the DL/B6 battle grows at Boston, I wonder if they’d pull the plug there, too.


WN has nonstop service out of BOS to a few Midwestern markets that aren't currently served by B6 such as CMH, MCI, MKE, and STL. WN also is currently the only airline serving STL nonstop from BOS.

In a few of the markets that have nonstop service to BOS on both WN and B6 such as AUS, CHI, DAL/DFW, HOU/IAH, and BNA, there are many travelers who are loyal to WN in the AUS, CHI, DAL/DFW, HOU/IAH, and BNA markets who prefer to fly on WN over B6.

There are some WN destinations in major U.S. metropolitan areas such as CLT, CVG, DTW, LGB, ONT, MSP, PHL, and PIT that currently have less demand for WN service than BOS does. There is also significantly more demand for WN service out of BOS than out of any other airport in the New England region.

WN will certainly not pull out of BOS anytime soon, and there is certainly enough demand for WN to continue serving BOS.


They could add MEM to BOS, stick it between AUS, PHX, SAN, OAK, LAS , MSY, ect, ect, ect...

Overnight a plane in MEM, send it to Bos and back in the AM, somewhere west and back in the PM.

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/2330836002
Last edited by WaywardMemphian on Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:09 pm

I would be shocked, if not for a rumor thread on here (quite some time ago IIRC) that claimed WN was so fed up with EWR’s extremely high costs and chronic delays that the entire station may close. If WN didn’t see reason to stomach the high costs of MIA, EWR - which IINM has the highest facility costs of any airport in the entire United States - must have really been a challenge. Will be interesting to see if other carriers like AS, B6, F9, G4 and/or NK look to fill the void..
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
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acavpics
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:10 pm

So are they really going to make more $$ off of making New Jersey flyers drive though NYC traffic to fly WN? Don't tell me they didn't anticipate that.
 
tphuang
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:10 pm

VS4ever wrote:
EK77WNH wrote:
As the DL/B6 battle grows at Boston, I wonder if they’d pull the plug there, too.


With this happening, is it beyond the realms of possibility, no, is it likely, no, but never say never. Massport have most of the airlines on annual gate lease contracts, so they could pull out of that pretty quickly if needed. Massport are completing the build out of 2 new gates at BOS to accommodate the move to B and in their reports have been constantly showing WN increasing, not decreasing. The last official report showed WN at around 3m pax a year and a 7.6% market share and if they were to exit, that would be a lot of capacity for the others to sweep up, but given the continued growth at BOS, maybe it wouldn't be an issue. The question would be who would take those gates. DL can't, B6 could try their "E" trick and once the connector is built take a couple of the close to C gates and NK,AS could move around. Or they could move F9 and SY back over from E, and maybe a combo of those could grow. I don't see AA/UA taking up the slack needing the extra gates.

It's all conjecture of course and maybe EWR is a lone issue, or it could be the start of something more profound.. time will tell.


They don't have alternatives to BOS, so I don't see them ever closing up shop there. But I could see them cutting more flights and giving up 1 or 2 gates if things continue to be hard for them. Right now, STL is the only market they do really well on out of BOS.
 
Scarebus34
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:10 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
nycbjr wrote:
According to Flight Global its the max..

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... rk-459912/

I tend to side with the experts in this thread sounds like a convient excuse.

"The financial results at Newark have been below expectations, despite the efforts of our excellent team at Newark," Kelly adds.

It wasn’t profitable.
 
freakyrat
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:10 pm

sxf24 wrote:
STT757 wrote:
There’s a quid pro quo we’re not seeing here, first the news about the 19 WN 73Gs going to UA comes out and a week later this news.


Where has it been proven that the 19 73Gs UA is taking are coming from WN?


The posters are speculating. The rumor is those 19 planes are actually coming from China Southern.
 
AviationKnurd
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:16 pm

flyiguy wrote:
News is reporting that EWR will be closing as part of the WN network due to delays with the MAX.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/25/southwe ... nding.html

FLY


Yes, they are closing EWR, however to say it’s because of the the MAX is patently false and an assumption based little knowledge and high-level analysis. Shame on CNBC

One needs not to look any further than the slew of financial and operational constraints WN’s EWR operation places on them for which the reasons are seemingly endless:

-The need to allocate more block time to EWR flights in order to account for EWR’s proneness to ATC delays,
-The rather high CASM, relatively speaking, associated w/EWR,
-Opportunity cost of placing aircraft on EWR routes when they could be placed elsewhere and achieve much better operational efficiencies and more optimally utilized to generate better revenues
-The fact that WN can serve NYC from LGA and to a lessor extent, ISP (I mean UA abandoned JFK for EWR, while at a different scale, for many of the same reasons WN is leaving EWR, and I’d say that move was a good one for UA)
-WN’s presence in NYC is a token one to serve their customers based in other cities like MCI, MKE, STL, etc, NOT those in NYC

But no, news outlets like CNBC see the “sexy” headline of how the “MAX grounding is now causing airlines to close airports”, despite its GROSS INACCURACIES and run with it. So sad
 
HIA350
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:16 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
I wonder who is going to make a play for their gates? F9, NK? The POS ex-EWR must be lousy if THIS is the first station getting closed due to MAX. Or maybe just a handy excuse?


Dont forget AAY, they're hungry for that NYC to FL market
 
Scarebus34
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:19 pm

freakyrat wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
STT757 wrote:
There’s a quid pro quo we’re not seeing here, first the news about the 19 WN 73Gs going to UA comes out and a week later this news.


Where has it been proven that the 19 73Gs UA is taking are coming from WN?


The posters are speculating. The rumor is those 19 planes are actually coming from China Southern.

The rumors that the planes are former FL birds that were coming off lease are far more abundant.
 
Fargo
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:21 pm

So to clarify, this was being contemplated for a while and the MAX issues were the final straw?
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:23 pm

tphuang wrote:
VS4ever wrote:
EK77WNH wrote:
As the DL/B6 battle grows at Boston, I wonder if they’d pull the plug there, too.


With this happening, is it beyond the realms of possibility, no, is it likely, no, but never say never. Massport have most of the airlines on annual gate lease contracts, so they could pull out of that pretty quickly if needed. Massport are completing the build out of 2 new gates at BOS to accommodate the move to B and in their reports have been constantly showing WN increasing, not decreasing. The last official report showed WN at around 3m pax a year and a 7.6% market share and if they were to exit, that would be a lot of capacity for the others to sweep up, but given the continued growth at BOS, maybe it wouldn't be an issue. The question would be who would take those gates. DL can't, B6 could try their "E" trick and once the connector is built take a couple of the close to C gates and NK,AS could move around. Or they could move F9 and SY back over from E, and maybe a combo of those could grow. I don't see AA/UA taking up the slack needing the extra gates.

It's all conjecture of course and maybe EWR is a lone issue, or it could be the start of something more profound.. time will tell.


They don't have alternatives to BOS, so I don't see them ever closing up shop there. But I could see them cutting more flights and giving up 1 or 2 gates if things continue to be hard for them. Right now, STL is the only market they do really well on out of BOS.


Near, 100 pdew for MEM /BOS with no direct, good amount of business traffic plus the stimulation of a direct at decent fares and it sounds like another STL to me. Add a leg to a new station out west for a decent no plane change from BOS and then another for for a no plane change for MEM and there you go.WN overnights planes in Memphis as is, start and end the day there.
 
AviationKnurd
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:25 pm

N757ST wrote:
For an airline that already has poor service to NYC, I find this incredible.


Why? NYC to WN is like DFW or MIA to UA, or IAH to AA, or ORD to DL.

NYC is a business dominated market with all of their airports already saturated with legacy carrier competition who can better cater to that markets business traveler needs on top of their loyalty. “Bags fly free” mean NOTHING to business travelers and the value proposition of Southwest in the NYC market is unappealing to the most lucrative customer in that market, the business traveler.

Good for Southwest realizing this and not trying to double-down in fight (market) that they can’t win and can much better allocate their assets elsewhere
 
Brickell305
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:30 pm

AviationKnurd wrote:
flyiguy wrote:
News is reporting that EWR will be closing as part of the WN network due to delays with the MAX.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/25/southwe ... nding.html

FLY


Yes, they are closing EWR, however to say it’s because of the the MAX is patently false and an assumption based little knowledge and high-level analysis. Shame on CNBC

One needs not to look any further than the slew of financial and operational constraints WN’s EWR operation places on them for which the reasons are seemingly endless:

-The need to allocate more block time to EWR flights in order to account for EWR’s proneness to ATC delays,
-The rather high CASM, relatively speaking, associated w/EWR,
-Opportunity cost of placing aircraft on EWR routes when they could be placed elsewhere and achieve much better operational efficiencies and more optimally utilized to generate better revenues
-The fact that WN can serve NYC from LGA and to a lessor extent, ISP (I mean UA abandoned JFK for EWR, while at a different scale, for many of the same reasons WN is leaving EWR, and I’d say that move was a good one for UA)
-WN’s presence in NYC is a token one to serve their customers based in other cities like MCI, MKE, STL, etc, NOT those in NYC

But no, news outlets like CNBC see the “sexy” headline of how the “MAX grounding is now causing airlines to close airports”, despite its GROSS INACCURACIES and run with it. So sad

Except again, CNBC never said that. From the article:

"Starting Nov. 3, Southwest will no longer operate out of Newark, where United dominates, and consolidate its New York operations out of LaGuardia Airport in Queens.

Southwest said its Newark operations haven’t been profitable enough and that it is registering strong demand out of LaGuardia."
 
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enilria
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:34 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
enilria wrote:
avi8 wrote:
Glad to see Southwest focusing on profits and not being ashamed of closing a station. Business is business and their results reflect that. They will still serve the NYC metro area at La Guardia, where they have 30+ flights a day. Maybe there’s something in the works to gain a few extra slots?

It's not about shame. It's about the loss of business travelers. If you have a station that loses money, but dropping it causes a bunch of big buck travelers to drop out of your ecosystem/FFP/etc because you can't get them to New York as effectively any more then it is a money losing decision. Something as big as this causes secondary impacts. Very few road warriors are going to abandon them if they close ISP or GSP.


Yeah, but what's the evidence that business travelers care about whether WN serves EWR? In many years of flying WN extensively for work, I think I've used WN once, for a trip to Short Hills, New Jersey. I have never used WN (or UA) to EWR for NYC travel. So unless WN has a bunch of business travelers clamoring for access to New Jersey or certain parts of Manhattan, it may not move the needle much.

It's a %. It's not everybody. A lot more top tier frequent fliers will switch programs if you drop EWR than if you drop CAK. Can we agree on that? The only question is how many and whether overall it is worth it. IMHO, given that I'm hearing they got NOTHING for their assets at EWR which is de facto slot restricted, I just question whether it was worth the risk of losing them. If they couldn't make EWR-BWI/MDW/DEN/LAS/BNA work then something is seriously wrong. I'll tell you what it is. Nobody in New York City is going to WN.com and that's the only way to buy a ticket. They are such a tiny player in NYC that nobody would think to check their website and that's the only way to buy a ticket.
Fargo wrote:
So to clarify, this was being contemplated for a while and the MAX issues were the final straw?

I doubt the MAX has anything at all to do with it. They don't see the MAX grounding as a long term or even intermediate term problem.
 
pbodyphoto
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:41 pm

I’m willing to bet half their problem is the fact their website doesn’t have a NYC search option to bring up results from both airports. Savvy travelers would know to search both separately but the majority wouldn’t. They have essentially blocked a majority of New Yorkers from even finding a flight out of EWR.
 
AviationKnurd
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:41 pm

tphuang wrote:
VS4ever wrote:
EK77WNH wrote:
As the DL/B6 battle grows at Boston, I wonder if they’d pull the plug there, too.


They don't have alternatives to BOS, so I don't see them ever closing up shop there. But I could see them cutting more flights and giving up 1 or 2 gates if things continue to be hard for them. Right now, STL is the only market they do really well on out of BOS.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

Exactly. BOS doesn’t compete with 2 or 3 other airports in as close proximity as the NYC airports, otherwise, BOS could *possibly* be another EWR.

While MHT, PVD, and a lessor extent BDL can compete with BOS for the same passengers, those airports aren’t going to compete with BOS when it comes to business pax and/or the “average” traveler going to the region is often unaware of the flight possibilities to other airports other thanBOS, like PVD or MHT.

That all doesn’t go without saying, WN is struggling in BOS/MHT/PVD/BDL region. Other than serving BOS from their key Midwest cities, I believe that WN is struggling to find their place at these airports and is evidenced in their actions over the years. Trimming MHT rather drastically to basically MCO and TPA O&D’s, and then connecting the rest of their network via BWI and MDW when 10 years ago in 2009, they served those 4 routes, in addition to FLL, LAS, PHL, and PHX
 
MIflyer12
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:46 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
Will be interesting to see if other carriers like AS, B6, F9, G4 and/or NK look to fill the void..


Void? It's 20 flights/day, spread over a bunch of destinations, at an airport that sees 440K commercial flights a year. UA might see a tiny TRASM bump.
 
SXDFC
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:46 pm

Once again.. ISP makes money for WN, along with the fact that they have a terminal they built in which the lease doesn’t expire till 2024.. A LOT could happen in 4-5 years, hopefully for WN it means that they’ll be flying a heavily discounted 737MAX in there.

As far as the 19 -700s going to UA.. Look on airfleets and look at which 77** birds are GECAS birds, should give you an idea of which ones are going to UA.. It seems like WN will be getting rid of the leased birds along with a mix of older original “7H4” -700s.
 
malev2012
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:49 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
I would be shocked, if not for a rumor thread on here (quite some time ago IIRC) that claimed WN was so fed up with EWR’s extremely high costs and chronic delays that the entire station may close. If WN didn’t see reason to stomach the high costs of MIA, EWR - which IINM has the highest facility costs of any airport in the entire United States - must have really been a challenge. Will be interesting to see if other carriers like AS, B6, F9, G4 and/or NK look to fill the void..


With the number of planes that NK is taking delivery of 45 on order versus the 135 in the current fleet, I could see NK making a play to some of the markets WN is pulling out in EWR like BNA, AUS, ORD, PHX
Airlines flown: AA, AB, AC, AY, BA, CO, DL, DY, EW, F9, G4, IB, KL, LH, LX, NK, NW, NZ, OS, QF, SN, TP, UA, US, VA, VC, WN, XE
 
klwright69
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:55 pm

Wow. And I remember getting Southwest a foothold at EWR was the only big concession to have the CO/UA merger approved. Anyone else remember?
Maybe Southwest should replace EWR with the more "prestigious" JFK (I am quoting others on here, not my word). I am actually shocked they're not at least keeping around DEN, MDW, and HOU for core customers. Giving up entirely at EWR is somewhat of a surprise.

Complaining about delays at EWR is getting tiresome, everyone else deals with it. That's as logical as saying "It's always so crowded here, no one wants to come here anymore."
 
Brickell305
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:59 pm

klwright69 wrote:
Wow. And I remember getting Southwest a foothold at EWR was the only big concession to have the CO/UA merger approved. Anyone else remember?
Maybe Southwest should replace EWR with the more "prestigious" JFK (I am quoting others on here, not my word). I am actually shocked they're not at least keeping around DEN, MDW, and HOU for core customers. Giving up entirely at EWR is somewhat of a surprise.

Complaining about delays at EWR is getting tiresome, everyone else deals with it. That's as logical as saying "It's always so crowded here, no one wants to come here anymore."

To be entirely fair though, quick turns are a much more integral part of WN's success/operations than they are for other airlines so I can see how a congested airspace could have a proportionally larger effect on them.
 
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TWA302
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:00 pm

pbodyphoto wrote:
I’m willing to bet half their problem is the fact their website doesn’t have a NYC search option to bring up results from both airports. Savvy travelers would know to search both separately but the majority wouldn’t. They have essentially blocked a majority of New Yorkers from even finding a flight out of EWR.



Yes it does. Type in EWR, LGA or ISP and it pops up with all three airports.
 
tphuang
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:01 pm

SXDFC wrote:
Once again.. ISP makes money for WN, along with the fact that they have a terminal they built in which the lease doesn’t expire till 2024.. A LOT could happen in 4-5 years, hopefully for WN it means that they’ll be flying a heavily discounted 737MAX in there.

As far as the 19 -700s going to UA.. Look on airfleets and look at which 77** birds are GECAS birds, should give you an idea of which ones are going to UA.. It seems like WN will be getting rid of the leased birds along with a mix of older original “7H4” -700s.


ISP is profitable for WN that they cut FLL from there in the summer time.

From what I can see, ISP-PBI is profitable. MCO/FLL/TPA are all below system average and probably losing money.
 
SoEWR
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:39 am

Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:01 pm

Cost per Enplanement is very high at EWR. That is definitely part of the reason why Southwest left Newark.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1303
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:06 pm

I wonder how much of WN's revenue with its NYC area (LGA specifically, not ISP) is NY POS. The POS market is dominated by DL, UA, B6 and AA.
 
nycbjr
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:45 am

Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:13 pm

As a New Yorker I generally fly DL out of LGA. However I hate LGA so I always look at WN or UA out of EWR. It's a more convenient airport for west siders. I'm always shocked that WN cost more than either DL or UA! I wanted to support them but it seems better to keep accusing miles on my chosen carrier.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 1753
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:14 pm

sxf24 wrote:
STT757 wrote:
There’s a quid pro quo we’re not seeing here, first the news about the 19 WN 73Gs going to UA comes out and a week later this news.


Where has it been proven that the 19 73Gs UA is taking are coming from WN?


Just dug a little deeper on the web. These are the ex AirTran 737's and the deal was done way before the MAX issues.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 1753
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:17 pm

freakyrat wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
STT757 wrote:
There’s a quid pro quo we’re not seeing here, first the news about the 19 WN 73Gs going to UA comes out and a week later this news.


Where has it been proven that the 19 73Gs UA is taking are coming from WN?


I stand corrected these are not China Southern birds but are the ex Airtran birds that are coming off lease from GEICAS.
 
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SteveXC500
Posts: 523
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:18 pm

I fear this is what WN will eventually do in MSP. They don't grow any here at all. What I do not know is how profitable MSP is for WN.
 
Scarebus34
Posts: 405
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:18 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
nycbjr wrote:
As a New Yorker I generally fly DL out of LGA. However I hate LGA so I always look at WN or UA out of EWR. It's a more convenient airport for west siders. I'm always shocked that WN cost more than either DL or UA! I wanted to support them but it seems better to keep accusing miles on my chosen carrier.

This. Most people blindly argue and state that Southwest is the lower cost option. I priced random days in August on various non-stops they compete with UA on, and Southwest was always the most expensive. They simply don’t provide significant value for the fare they are trying to command.
 
Scarebus34
Posts: 405
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:19 pm

freakyrat wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
STT757 wrote:
There’s a quid pro quo we’re not seeing here, first the news about the 19 WN 73Gs going to UA comes out and a week later this news.


Where has it been proven that the 19 73Gs UA is taking are coming from WN?


Just dug a little deeper on the web. These are the ex AirTran 737's and the deal was done way before the MAX issues.

Some of them, FL had 52 737s when acquired.
 
rph99
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 3:27 am

Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:26 pm

Looking forward to finally seeing F9 at EWR! I anticipate an announcement sooner rather than later - it's a great opportunity.
 
klwright69
Posts: 2693
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:31 pm

Someone else commented on EWR being congested as having an impact on Southwests operational model. Fair enough. But LGA is quite congested also.
 
n471wn
Posts: 1717
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:23 am

Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:36 pm

freakyrat wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
STT757 wrote:
There’s a quid pro quo we’re not seeing here, first the news about the 19 WN 73Gs going to UA comes out and a week later this news.


Where has it been proven that the 19 73Gs UA is taking are coming from WN?


The posters are speculating. The rumor is those 19 planes are actually coming from China Sou

I am the poster who broke the news and I am not speculating. The 19 planes are coming from WN.
 
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ricport
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:36 pm

jplatts wrote:
alggag wrote:
I would have expected to see IAD or ISP close first.


Even though BWI is close enough to Downtown DC and the National Mall to be a viable option for those traveling to DC, three things keeping WN at IAD are (a) WN serving DEN (which is outside of the DCA perimeter) nonstop from IAD, (b) slot and perimeter restrictions at DCA, and (c) IAD being almost 60 miles west of BWI.

There are also a few WN destinations in the Western U.S. that have 1-stop connecting service out of IAD and BWI but not out of DCA on WN.


The problem with your IAD theory is that: 1) F9 is likely siphoning leisure/budget-conscious pax to DEN & MCO, and 2) with UA having a major hub at IAD that can carry biz pax nonstop to most western destinations (along with upgrades, the possibility of earning FF tix in F to places slightly more exotic than AMA or ELP, no chaotic boarding/festival seating, etc.), WN is in a tight spot. That's not to mention that WN has competition from UA & DL to ATL. WN seems to have struggled ever since it set foot @ IAD, and thus, it's not surprising that many of us are wondering how long it'll be before WN pulls the plug @ IAD.
 
Insertnamehere
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:44 am

Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:36 pm

Definitely for the best. LGA while not the best option for Manhattan is arguably able to service every borough in NYC better than EWR.
Hopefully we will see some increase of flights out of LGA especially as more gate space is opened up with the renovations (the new area of the Central terminal at LGA is truly world class
its beautiful).
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1369
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:40 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
Where does WN fly to from EWR?

Because using google is too hard apparently. AUS/BWI/MDW/DEN/BNA/OAK/BNA/PHX/STL and SAN was announced.


At least as difficult for people not to be snarky, evidently.

Here’s a concept...how about people dropping the snark, and just answering the question? Several people don’t have to “go google it”, the answer is here on a.net for quick reference and it adds to the conversation?
 
User avatar
September11
Posts: 3623
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:49 am

Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:43 pm

8 years for Southwest at EWR (service began in 2011)

Similar to PHL hub pull down
Airliners.net of the Future
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5505
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:00 pm

EWR is the most expensive airport in the nation to operate in.

EWR is delay prone.

WN flies few transcons

WN is lost in NYC

Put that together and this decision makes sense. Short haul out of LGA to their “hubs” and call it a day.

B6 will grab a gate I am sure
 
jplatts
Posts: 2910
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:00 pm

EWR actually had one of the highest load factors in WN's network in 2018, but I agree that "The financial results at Newark have been below expectations [for WN]".

The yields were likely weaker on WN nonstop routes out of EWR, and WN's nonstop routes out of EWR were in competition with UA, AA, DL, B6, and NK nonstop routes out of EWR, LGA, and JFK.
 
zuckie13
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:28 pm

I think that its highly likely the writing was on the wall for EWR regardless of the MAX, but, its possible the timeline could have been tweaked to help out with the MAX related plane shortage. I'd think they would have held on through the holiday season otherwise.

Guess we get a BWI-EWR link back for a month....
 
jayunited
Posts: 2299
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:30 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
Definitely for the best. LGA while not the best option for Manhattan is arguably able to service every borough in NYC better than EWR.
Hopefully we will see some increase of flights out of LGA especially as more gate space is opened up with the renovations (the new area of the Central terminal at LGA is truly world class
its beautiful).


How is LGA any better than EWR? How many flights leave LGA on-time after 2 or 3 pm? If your goal is to take in the central terminal then yes LGA is truly world class as you claim. But if your goal is to get to your destination on time in the afternoon or evening LGA is just as congested and delay prone as EWR.

This may come down to cost the NJ Senate approved a a massive gas tax hike. Originally the gas tax was only supposed to apply to UA flights but UA successfully blocked that measure which then forced the NJ Senate to amend the bill which now applies to all airlines. Under the old NJ law airlines only paid taxes on the "Burnout". that is gas they burned during taxi and takeoff, once out of NJ airspace the remainder of the gas was tax free. The new law which now applies to every airline means airlines are now paying taxes on every gallon of gas purchased at EWR. UA wanted to kill this bill but since they couldn't do that what they did accomplish is the amendment that applies this new law to every airline and not just UA.
https://www.njspotlight.com/stories/18/ ... t-pleased/

I think the increased operating cost across the board at EWR is the main reason WN is pulling out and the NJ Senate was warned this would happen if this bill passed.

tphuang wrote:
And now WN is gone. Even I'm shocked they are giving up completely at EWR. What's the point of keeping ISP open now?
Is this the biggest station closure since UA at JFK? I would think so.
UA must be happy. I hope they don't get subleased those gates. It should go to B6/NK/F9 or whoever is willing to put up some more competition vs UA.
Com'on B6, you have been gate constrained at EWR. This is as good of an opportunity as any to add gate/slots.


As expensive as it is to operate out of EWR the only airline I see going after more gates is B6. The high cost at EWR make it unlikely (in my opinion) that we would see any movement from NK or F9.

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