cledaybuck
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:38 pm

jayunited wrote:
How is LGA any better than EWR?

Presumably, WN is making more money in LGA than EWR, thus making the delays more tolerable.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:42 pm

Does it mean the return of UA's EWR-HOU?
Lets face it, most likely lots of Mileage Plus Houstonians in and south of the loop would love to be able to fly out of HOU to NYC early morning without the need to drive all the way to IAH, same for the late evening HOU arrival near their homes. And for the NYC side, early morning EWR-HOU means earlier arrival if going to the loop or south Houston, early evening HOU-EWR = no need to endure that much traffic getting to IAH at those times when heading to NYC.
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jplatts
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:51 pm

2travel2know2 wrote:
Does it mean the return of UA's EWR-HOU?
Lets face it, most likely lots of Mileage Plus Houstonians in and south of the loop would love to be able to fly out of HOU to NYC early morning without the need to drive all the way to IAH, same for the late evening HOU arrival near their homes. And for the NYC side, early morning EWR-HOU means earlier arrival if going to the loop or south Houston, early evening HOU-EWR = no need to endure that much traffic getting to IAH at those times when heading to NYC.


DL already offers connections to EWR from HOU through ATL, and AA already already offers connections to EWR from HOU through DFW.

UA would also likely serve its ORD and DEN hubs nonstop from HOU if it re-enters HOU.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:05 pm

2travel2know2 wrote:
Does it mean the return of UA's EWR-HOU?
Lets face it, most likely lots of Mileage Plus Houstonians in and south of the loop would love to be able to fly out of HOU to NYC early morning without the need to drive all the way to IAH, same for the late evening HOU arrival near their homes. And for the NYC side, early morning EWR-HOU means earlier arrival if going to the loop or south Houston, early evening HOU-EWR = no need to endure that much traffic getting to IAH at those times when heading to NYC.

No. UA doesn't operate out of HOU, MDW, OAK, and JFK for a reason.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:18 pm

STT757 wrote:
The LGA and DCA slots UA is using for flights to CLE which is no longer a hub and is relegated to 50 seat ERJ-145s.


Hub or not when UA walked from CLE-MKE and CLE-BOS WN and DL respectively took the marketshare in a heartbeat. I think it’s doubtful they are looking to move these slots.
 
pbodyphoto
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:27 pm

TWA302 wrote:
pbodyphoto wrote:
I’m willing to bet half their problem is the fact their website doesn’t have a NYC search option to bring up results from both airports. Savvy travelers would know to search both separately but the majority wouldn’t. They have essentially blocked a majority of New Yorkers from even finding a flight out of EWR.



Yes it does. Type in EWR, LGA or ISP and it pops up with all three airports.


It brings up all three as options individually but unlike most airlines you can’t combine them all in one search by typing in NYC. Searching LGA doesn’t bring up results to EWR
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:29 pm

Hasn't EWR's delays decreased WN's on-time record throughout the its fleet? Given the metaphors we use to describe airline networks, WN is more web-like and the big 3 more hubs and spokes-like. (which does not mean the big 3 cannot be web-like nor WN sometimes hub-like). This could be part of the reason that WN and EWR don't work.
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jplatts
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:32 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
STT757 wrote:
The LGA and DCA slots UA is using for flights to CLE which is no longer a hub and is relegated to 50 seat ERJ-145s.


Hub or not when UA walked from CLE-MKE and CLE-BOS WN and DL respectively took the marketshare in a heartbeat. I think it’s doubtful they are looking to move these slots.


UA still serves CLE-LGA and CLE-DCA since (a) LGA is in the same market as UA's EWR hub, (b) DCA is in the same market as UA's IAD hub, (c) UA has corporate contracts and a FF base in NYC to support CLE-LGA nonstop service, (d) UA has corporate contracts and a FF base in DC to support CLE-DCA nonstop service, and (d) UA holds slots at both LGA and DCA that need to be utilized.
 
boeingguy1
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:35 pm

TWA302 wrote:
pbodyphoto wrote:
I’m willing to bet half their problem is the fact their website doesn’t have a NYC search option to bring up results from both airports. Savvy travelers would know to search both separately but the majority wouldn’t. They have essentially blocked a majority of New Yorkers from even finding a flight out of EWR.



Yes it does. Type in EWR, LGA or ISP and it pops up with all three airports.


That's true, but on any other airline search tool (airline websites and 3rd parties), you're able to hit all three (or the more traditional JFK/LGA/EWR) in one search. On southwest.com, this requires 3 separate searches. Very cumbersome, especially when in today's world simplicity is key.
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stl07
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:44 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Polot wrote:
The Max is being used as a scapegoat to lessen the blow and give hope that they will come back. If that plane was truly needed to keep the station open then EWR was barely hanging on to begin with. Southwest, like any airline, would shuffle to keep profitable routes/stations operating as robustly as possible.

Exactly. Ridiculous spin to blame the MAX. Also, are they not selling their gates there? If they are just abandoning them in return for nothing they are not that savvy. EWR is borderline slot restricted. Their position there has value.

Apart from all of that, I can’t believe they would just give up there. True, they have tried numerous routes, but to 50% give up on NYC is shocking.


Except for the fact that WN never actually blamed the station closing on the MAX. That was the OP's (mis)interpretation of the article. From WN's announcement of quarterly financial results:

"We will cease operations at Newark Liberty International Airport and consolidate our New York City presence at New York LaGuardia Airport, effective November 3, 2019. The financial results at Newark have been below expectations, despite the efforts of our excellent Team at Newark. I am grateful to our wonderful Newark Employees, who are a top priority, and will be given an opportunity to relocate to another station in our system, including LaGuardia Airport, where we are experiencing strong Customer demand. As part of this move, we will offer options and flexibility for Customers to recover planned travel from other area airports."

http://www.southwestairlinesinvestorrel ... -114616974

What the linked article says:

"Shares of Southwest Airlines tumbled Thursday after the low-cost carrier said it doesn’t plan to fly the grounded Boeing 737 Max until next year, warned about higher-than-expected costs and announced it’s pulling out of Newark Liberty International Airport."

"Southwest said its Newark operations haven’t been profitable enough and that it is observing strong demand out of LaGuardia."

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/25/southwe ... nding.html

At no point did it blame the closing of EWR on the MAX.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/southwest- ... 1564054566
Every article says it's due to the MAX. Not that I believe that but they were certainly a factor
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strfyr51
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:47 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Polot wrote:
The Max is being used as a scapegoat to lessen the blow and give hope that they will come back. If that plane was truly needed to keep the station open then EWR was barely hanging on to begin with. Southwest, like any airline, would shuffle to keep profitable routes/stations operating as robustly as possible.
In sp,

Correct. As evidenced by:

""The financial results at Newark have been below expectations, despite the efforts of our excellent Team at Newark," the statement from CEO and Chairman of the Board Gary Kelly said."

well? What did he expect? For WN to go there and everybody would just DROP who they were flying and flock to WN? n some cities? WN is Not a big deal and they'll have to earn their "Stripes" like everybody Else. Maybe they could have started at LGA or Westchester county. since they like off brand airports so much.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:51 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
Maybe they could have started at LGA or Westchester county. since they like off brand airports so much.
Ummm...they did start at LGA before EWR.
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par13del
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:54 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
well? What did he expect? For WN to go there and everybody would just DROP who they were flying and flock to WN? n some cities? WN is Not a big deal and they'll have to earn their "Stripes" like everybody Else. Maybe they could have started at LGA or Westchester county. since they like off brand airports so much.

If my memory is correct, they could not get LGA initially, hence the move into EWR, like the PHL push this is also a bust, so much for those who claimed WN was abandoning their roots by flying to major airports, difference here is that unlike scaling back PHL they are leaving EWR, I suspect this is somehow in league with UA, they have been pretty cozy recently.
Only issue is how the perimeter rules affect their LGA operations, hopefully their delays do not affect downstream operations as much as those at EWR.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:07 pm

I am baffled by this news...With LGA being slot controlled I don't understand how they expect LGA absorb the EWR capacity. I hope a JFK announcement will follow this closure but I'm not holding my breath.
 
ytib
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:08 pm

par13del wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
well? What did he expect? For WN to go there and everybody would just DROP who they were flying and flock to WN? n some cities? WN is Not a big deal and they'll have to earn their "Stripes" like everybody Else. Maybe they could have started at LGA or Westchester county. since they like off brand airports so much.

If my memory is correct, they could not get LGA initially, hence the move into EWR, like the PHL push this is also a bust, so much for those who claimed WN was abandoning their roots by flying to major airports, difference here is that unlike scaling back PHL they are leaving EWR, I suspect this is somehow in league with UA, they have been pretty cozy recently.
Only issue is how the perimeter rules affect their LGA operations, hopefully their delays do not affect downstream operations as much as those at EWR.


They started in the New York area with ISP.

ISP: March 14, 1999
LGA: June 28, 2009
EWR: March 27, 2011

Source: https://www.swamedia.com/pages/city-fact-sheets
Airbus:318,319,320,321,332,333,388
Boeing:707,717,732,733,734,73Q,735,73G,738,7M8,739,752,753,742,74L,744,762,763,772,77L,77W,789
Misc:142,CN1,CR2,CR7,DC8,DH2,DH8,D8Q,D10,D95,EM2,ER3,ER4,E70,100,J31,M11,M83,M88,M90,SF3

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mia
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:26 pm

tphuang wrote:
What's the point of keeping ISP open now?


Captive loyalists. F9 proved that you can fill seats at ISP with competitive fares. WN has no interest in competition at ISP which keeps fares high enough to not be worth the drive or train ride out to Ronkonkoma.

ytib wrote:
They started in the New York area with ISP.

ISP: March 14, 1999
LGA: June 28, 2009
EWR: March 27, 2011

Source: https://www.swamedia.com/pages/city-fact-sheets


Does this include AirTran start from dates?
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berari
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:31 pm

Grounding of MAX makes them make decision on how/where to use aircraft, hence the dropping of EWR. So here's another MAX casualty.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:51 pm

mia wrote:
Does this include AirTran start from dates?


No, Airtran flew to LGA prior to 2009
 
INFINITI329
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:51 pm

mia wrote:
Does this include AirTran start from dates?


No, Airtran flew to LGA prior to 2009
 
marcogr12
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:54 pm

Shouldn't they delay 73Gs retirement, to avoid a/c shortage, now that they can't operate the MAXs, until the issue is resolved?
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bob75013
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:00 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Polot wrote:
The Max is being used as a scapegoat to lessen the blow and give hope that they will come back. If that plane was truly needed to keep the station open then EWR was barely hanging on to begin with. Southwest, like any airline, would shuffle to keep profitable routes/stations operating as robustly as possible.
In sp,

Correct. As evidenced by:

""The financial results at Newark have been below expectations, despite the efforts of our excellent Team at Newark," the statement from CEO and Chairman of the Board Gary Kelly said."

well? What did he expect? For WN to go there and everybody would just DROP who they were flying and flock to WN? n some cities? WN is Not a big deal and they'll have to earn their "Stripes" like everybody Else. Maybe they could have started at LGA or Westchester county. since they like off brand airports so much.


Huh???

Every airline goes into new markets wih an "expectation" of how well it will do. Kelly simply sid that those "expectations" were not met.

On the other hand Kelly said that the Hawaii flights exceeded "expectations," and thus flights to Hawaii are being added - even though the company is short a bunch of planes.
Last edited by bob75013 on Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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stl07
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:01 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Polot wrote:
The Max is being used as a scapegoat to lessen the blow and give hope that they will come back. If that plane was truly needed to keep the station open then EWR was barely hanging on to begin with. Southwest, like any airline, would shuffle to keep profitable routes/stations operating as robustly as possible.
In sp,

Correct. As evidenced by:

""The financial results at Newark have been below expectations, despite the efforts of our excellent Team at Newark," the statement from CEO and Chairman of the Board Gary Kelly said."

well? What did he expect? For WN to go there and everybody would just DROP who they were flying and flock to WN? n some cities? WN is Not a big deal and they'll have to earn their "Stripes" like everybody Else. Maybe they could have started at LGA or Westchester county. since they like off brand airports so much.

Exactly, WN has been behaving like they are the old WN, aka F9 now. Everyone drops and runs to F9 nowadays because their flights are like 60 bucks, WN not so much. WN needs to understand and embrace that they are a full-service carrier and have to earn trust and build up their brand as they are on the same price level as AA, DL, and United and not the latest ULCC to fly to EWR
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jplatts
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:28 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
I am baffled by this news...With LGA being slot controlled I don't understand how they expect LGA absorb the EWR capacity. I hope a JFK announcement will follow this closure but I'm not holding my breath.


WN now has the ability to upgauge more of its LGA nonstops to 737-800's and 737 MAX 8 planes with the relocation of WN's LGA operations over to the new gate area in Terminal B at LGA. WN previously had limited room to get planes in and out of its old gates out of LGA.

WN is likely to upgauge some of its LGA nonstops to the 737-800 and 737 MAX 8 once the 737 MAX 8 is back in service.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:48 pm

Closing EWR and relying on LGA is WN's network planning dept at work. WN, like DL, chops underperforming stations.
Glad to see a formal commitment to ITO. I, and many of my friends in Hawaii, have switched to WN interisland (but not back to the mainland).
 
Lootess
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:18 pm

If you actually watched Gary Kelly's interview on that MSNBC page, you'd know he wan't using the MAX to cover up the EWR performance but it did have some bearing on the decision because they still want to grow this year and have planes they can't fly or can't be delivered so it made sense to axe EWR since it was low performing anyway.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:01 pm

One factor that nobody has mentioned

They got 6 LGA slots from AS this year.

Four have already been delivered

Two come in Dec off a lease from B6.

That is a pretty substantial increase in capacity for southwest at LaGuardia year-over-year

They must feel it is enough
 
Cubsrule
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:08 pm

stl07 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
In sp,

Correct. As evidenced by:

""The financial results at Newark have been below expectations, despite the efforts of our excellent Team at Newark," the statement from CEO and Chairman of the Board Gary Kelly said."

well? What did he expect? For WN to go there and everybody would just DROP who they were flying and flock to WN? n some cities? WN is Not a big deal and they'll have to earn their "Stripes" like everybody Else. Maybe they could have started at LGA or Westchester county. since they like off brand airports so much.

Exactly, WN has been behaving like they are the old WN, aka F9 now. Everyone drops and runs to F9 nowadays because their flights are like 60 bucks, WN not so much. WN needs to understand and embrace that they are a full-service carrier and have to earn trust and build up their brand as they are on the same price level as AA, DL, and United and not the latest ULCC to fly to EWR


What's the evidence that WN isn't successful in this regard? Certainly, load factors and profits are not evidnece of anything wrong with WN's marketing. WN doesn't need 100 percent market share in every city it serves, and WN understands that.
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KlimaBXsst
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:14 pm

A L A S K A

https://as.fltmaps.com/mobile/en/Destin ... ork%20(EWR)&FromId=EWR&FromLocationType=Station&Connections=False&NonStop=True&CodeShares=False&SortBy=ArrivalCity&ShowAsList=False&ShowHeader=True&map=True

A M E R I C A N

https://aa.fltmaps.com/mobile/en/Destin ... ork%20(EWR)&FromId=EWR&FromLocationType=Station&Connections=False&NonStop=True&CodeShares=False&SortBy=ArrivalCity&ShowAsList=False&ShowHeader=True&map=True

D E L T A

https://dl.fltmaps.com/mobile/en/Destin ... ork%20(EWR)&FromId=EWR&FromLocationType=Station&Connections=False&NonStop=True&CodeShares=False&SortBy=NumberStops&ShowAsList=False&ShowHeader=True&map=True

J E T B L U E

https://www.jetblue.com/route-map/?origin=EWR

U N I T E D

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/conten ... -maps.aspx
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:21 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
A L A S K A

https://as.fltmaps.com/mobile/en/Destin ... ork%20(EWR)&FromId=EWR&FromLocationType=Station&Connections=False&NonStop=True&CodeShares=False&SortBy=ArrivalCity&ShowAsList=False&ShowHeader=True&map=True

A M E R I C A N

https://aa.fltmaps.com/mobile/en/Destin ... ork%20(EWR)&FromId=EWR&FromLocationType=Station&Connections=False&NonStop=True&CodeShares=False&SortBy=ArrivalCity&ShowAsList=False&ShowHeader=True&map=True

D E L T A

https://dl.fltmaps.com/mobile/en/Destin ... ork%20(EWR)&FromId=EWR&FromLocationType=Station&Connections=False&NonStop=True&CodeShares=False&SortBy=NumberStops&ShowAsList=False&ShowHeader=True&map=True

J E T B L U E

https://www.jetblue.com/route-map/?origin=EWR

U N I T E D

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/conten ... -maps.aspx


Well heck ... this did not work for some reason! This was a route map option for those consumers using EWR on other airlines route maps. Focusing only on EWR departures.

If someone knows how to tinker this feel free too or moderators feel free to delete
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
Fargo
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:25 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
One factor that nobody has mentioned

They got 6 LGA slots from AS this year.

Four have already been delivered

Two come in Dec off a lease from B6.

That is a pretty substantial increase in capacity for southwest at LaGuardia year-over-year

They must feel it is enough


Exactly. Since WN isn’t a huge player in NYC to begin with, LGA is all they need. People are blowing this out of proportion. EWR is an extremely congested, expensive and inefficient airport, I’m not sad to see them leave at all. As for the few transcons? Connect in DEN.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:29 pm

Fargo wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
One factor that nobody has mentioned

They got 6 LGA slots from AS this year.

Four have already been delivered

Two come in Dec off a lease from B6.

That is a pretty substantial increase in capacity for southwest at LaGuardia year-over-year

They must feel it is enough


Exactly. Since WN isn’t a huge player in NYC to begin with, LGA is all they need. People are blowing this out of proportion. EWR is an extremely congested, expensive and inefficient airport, I’m not sad to see them leave at all. As for the few transcons? Connect in DEN.


It is a big deal, how often does a Big 4 carrier close a station the size of WN's operation in EWR, let alone in the biggest metropolitan area in America.
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Cubsrule
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:37 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Fargo wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
One factor that nobody has mentioned

They got 6 LGA slots from AS this year.

Four have already been delivered

Two come in Dec off a lease from B6.

That is a pretty substantial increase in capacity for southwest at LaGuardia year-over-year

They must feel it is enough


Exactly. Since WN isn’t a huge player in NYC to begin with, LGA is all they need. People are blowing this out of proportion. EWR is an extremely congested, expensive and inefficient airport, I’m not sad to see them leave at all. As for the few transcons? Connect in DEN.


It is a big deal, how often does a Big 4 carrier close a station the size of WN's operation in EWR, let alone in the biggest metropolitan area in America.


Funnily enough, the last time was probably when UA closed JFK, and I would argue that the fact that those both happened in NYC isn't a coincidence.
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Fargo
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:40 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Fargo wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
One factor that nobody has mentioned

They got 6 LGA slots from AS this year.

Four have already been delivered

Two come in Dec off a lease from B6.

That is a pretty substantial increase in capacity for southwest at LaGuardia year-over-year

They must feel it is enough


Exactly. Since WN isn’t a huge player in NYC to begin with, LGA is all they need. People are blowing this out of proportion. EWR is an extremely congested, expensive and inefficient airport, I’m not sad to see them leave at all. As for the few transcons? Connect in DEN.


It is a big deal, how often does a Big 4 carrier close a station the size of WN's operation in EWR, let alone in the biggest metropolitan area in America.
Image


It's not like it was a huge station or anything. It was decent sized, but all of the cities served via EWR are already decent sized focus cities for WN so it's not like it is a huge loss.
 
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BanjoYoshi
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:51 pm

Nk has been doing well in EWR those MCO , MYR & LAS etc flights are always full & oversold. And they have added some international flying out of there like SDQ they have slowly added flights there and in PHL no one is addressing the yellow elephant in the room. They are growing there steadily. I'm sure people have flocked to NK due to WN high prices.
 
tphuang
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:58 pm

The problem with WN closing EWR is that they will have no way of getting back in down the road unless they make an acquisition or something. It's a big deal for any station outside of perimeter or even places like BNA where they are attempting to build up.
 
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STT757
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WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:17 pm

tphuang wrote:
The problem with WN closing EWR is that they will have no way of getting back in down the road unless they make an acquisition or something. It's a big deal for any station outside of perimeter or even places like BNA where they are attempting to build up.


Yup, no more ability to serve AUS, LAS, PHX, SAN, SAT, LAX, OAK from NY. All big WN cities. Arguing one stops is dumb..

Also bears repeating, WN is not only ending only EWR in November but they’re turning over 19 73Gs to UA starting in December during a time they are desperately short aircraft.

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Last edited by STT757 on Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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September11
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:26 pm

I thought EWR is building Terminal One (replacing Terminal A) for WN
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CobaltScar
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:30 pm

STT757 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
The problem with WN closing EWR is that they will have no way of getting back in down the road unless they make an acquisition or something. It's a big deal for any station outside of perimeter or even places like BNA where they are attempting to build up.


Yup, no more ability to serve AUS, LAS, PHX, SAN, SAT, LAX, OAK from NY. All big WN cities. Arguing one stops is dumb..

Also bears repeating, WN is not only ending only EWR in November but they’re turning over 19 73Gs starting in December during a time they are desperately short aircraft.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro



Sounds like they need to start doing red eyes to make up for the aircraft shortfall.
 
rjmf22
Posts: 130
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:31 pm

STT757 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
The problem with WN closing EWR is that they will have no way of getting back in down the road unless they make an acquisition or something. It's a big deal for any station outside of perimeter or even places like BNA where they are attempting to build up.


Yup, no more ability to serve AUS, LAS, PHX, SAN, SAT, LAX, OAK from NY. All big WN cities. Arguing one stops is dumb..

Also bears repeating, WN is not only ending only EWR in November but they’re turning over 19 73Gs starting in December during a time they are desperately short aircraft.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


WN not being able to re-enter EWR is similar to UA not being able to re-enter JFK in a sense, I imagine it's something that both carriers will regret in time, UA already does.
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AviationKnurd
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:32 pm

Hub or not when UA walked from CLE-MKE and CLE-BOS WN and DL respectively took the marketshare in a heartbeat. I think it’s doubtful they are looking to move these slots.[/quote]

WN actually started CLE-MKE before UA exited that route, and if anything, WN made UA's decision to exit that route that much easier.
 
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STT757
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:34 pm

rjmf22 wrote:
STT757 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
The problem with WN closing EWR is that they will have no way of getting back in down the road unless they make an acquisition or something. It's a big deal for any station outside of perimeter or even places like BNA where they are attempting to build up.


Yup, no more ability to serve AUS, LAS, PHX, SAN, SAT, LAX, OAK from NY. All big WN cities. Arguing one stops is dumb..

Also bears repeating, WN is not only ending only EWR in November but they’re turning over 19 73Gs starting in December during a time they are desperately short aircraft.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


WN not being able to re-enter EWR is similar to UA not being able to re-enter JFK in a sense, I imagine it's something that both carriers will regret in time, UA already does.


If UA were able to operate LAX and SFO from
Laguardia they wouldn’t care about Kennedy.


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AviationKnurd
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:37 pm

berari wrote:
Grounding of MAX makes them make decision on how/where to use aircraft, hence the dropping of EWR. So here's another MAX casualty.


I have to disagree here with your over-simplified analysis. As others have pointed out, if EWR were actually profitable and not such a strain on the operation, WN most certainly would have found a way to keep EWR open.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:50 pm

AviationKnurd wrote:
berari wrote:
Grounding of MAX makes them make decision on how/where to use aircraft, hence the dropping of EWR. So here's another MAX casualty.


I have to disagree here with your over-simplified analysis. As others have pointed out, if EWR were actually profitable and not such a strain on the operation, WN most certainly would have found a way to keep EWR open.


“This is a tactical decision forced by the MAX groundings and the painful cut of 8 percent of our capacity,” CEO Gary Kelly said on the airline’s earnings call.

“We need the airplanes,” Kelly said. “We can’t afford in this highly competitive environment, where our capacity overall is cut, to have underperforming assets.”

Never said it was unprofitable, but it says "underperforming financially." One thing to note here is that EWR's routes are ones with longer stage length than most WN stations, that is certainly something to consider when you are crunched for aircraft.
https://skift.com/2019/07/25/did-an-agg ... ewark-hub/

izbtmnhd wrote:
STT757 wrote:
The LGA and DCA slots UA is using for flights to CLE which is no longer a hub and is relegated to 50 seat ERJ-145s.


Hub or not when UA walked from CLE-MKE and CLE-BOS WN and DL respectively took the marketshare in a heartbeat. I think it’s doubtful they are looking to move these slots.


Not sure I follow the logic there. If UA was truly concerned about losing market share, they wouldn't have dropped both routes in the first place
Last edited by Midwestindy on Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:51 pm

Sort of, but the MAX grounding hampers WNs growth plans in the near term and raises the bar on the financial objectives.

They have to make decisions on where to reallocate limited capacity into markets that generate better returns.

Obviously EWR was at the bottom, but in the current economy if WN had all the available aircraft and capacity available it originally intended, EWR may still have made the cut.

Cutting EWR is lot different than some of the smaller legacy FL markets that got cut. It’s the biggest single airport cut by a US4 since UA at JFK.
 
twaconnie
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:03 pm

I wonder if there is some deal going on behind closed doors. Time will tell.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:14 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
AviationKnurd wrote:
berari wrote:
Grounding of MAX makes them make decision on how/where to use aircraft, hence the dropping of EWR. So here's another MAX casualty.


I have to disagree here with your over-simplified analysis. As others have pointed out, if EWR were actually profitable and not such a strain on the operation, WN most certainly would have found a way to keep EWR open.


“This is a tactical decision forced by the MAX groundings and the painful cut of 8 percent of our capacity,” CEO Gary Kelly said on the airline’s earnings call.

“We need the airplanes,” Kelly said. “We can’t afford in this highly competitive environment, where our capacity overall is cut, to have underperforming assets.”

Never said it was unprofitable, but it says "underperforming financially." One thing to note here is that EWR's routes are ones with longer stage length than most WN stations, that is certainly something to consider when you are crunched for aircraft.
https://skift.com/2019/07/25/did-an-agg ... ewark-hub/

izbtmnhd wrote:
STT757 wrote:
The LGA and DCA slots UA is using for flights to CLE which is no longer a hub and is relegated to 50 seat ERJ-145s.


Hub or not when UA walked from CLE-MKE and CLE-BOS WN and DL respectively took the marketshare in a heartbeat. I think it’s doubtful they are looking to move these slots.


Not sure I follow the logic there. If UA was truly concerned about losing market share, they wouldn't have dropped both routes in the first place


I don’t think UA really thought WN would be able to pull off certain days at double daily to MKE or DL would amend an BOS expansion immediately after UA announced they were bowing out to get their service started before UA even left.

No, I don’t think UA folks thought those things through. Too late now to reenter. They’ll be more cautious with LGA and DCA. So I’m not sure they want to pull the slots.
 
tphuang
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:24 pm

STT757 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
The problem with WN closing EWR is that they will have no way of getting back in down the road unless they make an acquisition or something. It's a big deal for any station outside of perimeter or even places like BNA where they are attempting to build up.


Yup, no more ability to serve AUS, LAS, PHX, SAN, SAT, LAX, OAK from NY. All big WN cities. Arguing one stops is dumb..

Also bears repeating, WN is not only ending only EWR in November but they’re turning over 19 73Gs to UA starting in December during a time they are desperately short aircraft.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I thought they redid the lease for 2021. Any idea what's going to happen to WN lease now? I guess they will sublease to someone? I would imagine at this point, B6 is interested in at least 1 of WN's gates if not more.

Midwestindy wrote:
“This is a tactical decision forced by the MAX groundings and the painful cut of 8 percent of our capacity,” CEO Gary Kelly said on the airline’s earnings call.

“We need the airplanes,” Kelly said. “We can’t afford in this highly competitive environment, where our capacity overall is cut, to have underperforming assets.”

Never said it was unprofitable, but it says "underperforming financially." One thing to note here is that EWR's routes are ones with longer stage length than most WN stations, that is certainly something to consider when you are crunched for aircraft.
https://skift.com/2019/07/25/did-an-agg ... ewark-hub/

I really think WN is very disciplined about their strategic vision, but this seems like they are on their way to cutting themselves out of Northeast.

Seems like all the focus is on west coast + BNA right now.
 
AviationKnurd
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:31 pm

stl07 wrote:

Exactly, WN has been behaving like they are the old WN, aka F9 now. Everyone drops and runs to F9 nowadays because their flights are like 60 bucks, WN not so much. WN needs to understand and embrace that they are a full-service carrier and have to earn trust and build up their brand as they are on the same price level as AA, DL, and United and not the latest ULCC to fly to EWR


Hang on a second ...what!!??! I'm afraid your logic is extremely flawed.

"WN has been behaving like they are the old WN, aka F9 now." What exactly do you mean by this because I'm seriously racking my brain trying to figure that shrewd little comment out?

"Everyone drops and runs to F9 nowadays because their flights are like 60 bucks, WN not so much." So, by that logic, and, if you're assumption were true, F9 wouldn't need need to incessantly and constantly add and drop routes like they have ever since they changed to a ULCC business model a few years ago ...now, would they?? Also, F9's fares may in fact be "like 60 bucks", but that's not including the slew of fees their pax have to pay and since F9 isn't publicly traded that info is private, BUT, if we look at Spirit, which I think we can agree the airline that is most similar to that of F9? In Spirit's 2018 10-K, http://www.annualreports.com/HostedData/AnnualReports/PDF/NASDAQ_SAVE_2018.pdf(scroll down to page 38 ;)), where they explicitly state that the "Non-ticket revenue per passenger flight segment" a.k.a. FEE's is $55.23. So, let's just tack that $55.23 onto your "60 bucks" shall we, and now we have "everyone running to F9" to get nickel and dimed and fork over, per essentially your logic, $115.23. Right?? Am I missing something here?

"WN needs to understand and embrace that they are a full-service carrier". Ok, I don't even know where to start with this blatantly uneducated comment so I'm just going to move on to your next gem of brilliant insight:

WN has to "earn trust and build up their brand as they are on the same price level as AA, DL, and United" ...wellllllll, no, not really. Have a look at airfare for TOMORROW, or heck, even next week, from say any large AA, DL, or UA hub on a route that WN also serves and let me know what you find! And lets touch on that remark about WN earning trust. I'm going to go out on a very long limb here and assume that you'll agree TripAdviser probably knows what they're talking about when it comes to, well, anything travel related? If so, sweet, because in their most recent study ranking the top 10 airlines in the world based on TripAdvisor customers, gues what U.S. based airline was the only one to crack the top 10!! Yup, the same one you so eloquently proclaimed needs to "earn trust and build up their brand", Southwest. And, I know you're dying to know ...they came in at #6, behind actual full srvice airline Singapore, Qatar, EVA, Emirates, and Japan Airlines. Actually, Southwest was the ONLY U.S. based carrier to crack this list's top ten! Here's the link for the article so you can check it out ;) https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/02/here-are-the-top-10-airlines-in-the-world-as-ranked-by-tripadvisor.html

Cheers!

Aviation Knurd
 
flybry
Posts: 139
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Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:47 pm

klwright69 wrote:
Wow. And I remember getting Southwest a foothold at EWR was the only big concession to have the CO/UA merger approved. Anyone else remember?
Maybe Southwest should replace EWR with the more "prestigious" JFK (I am quoting others on here, not my word). I am actually shocked they're not at least keeping around DEN, MDW, and HOU for core customers. Giving up entirely at EWR is somewhat of a surprise.

Complaining about delays at EWR is getting tiresome, everyone else deals with it. That's as logical as saying "It's always so crowded here, no one wants to come here anymore."


Good points!
 
evank516
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: WN to close EWR

Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:58 pm

STT757 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
The problem with WN closing EWR is that they will have no way of getting back in down the road unless they make an acquisition or something. It's a big deal for any station outside of perimeter or even places like BNA where they are attempting to build up.


Yup, no more ability to serve AUS, LAS, PHX, SAN, SAT, LAX, OAK from NY. All big WN cities. Arguing one stops is dumb..

Also bears repeating, WN is not only ending only EWR in November but they’re turning over 19 73Gs to UA starting in December during a time they are desperately short aircraft.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Saturdays and ISP. Not that they would attempt any of those cities (except maybe LAS which was done before, LAX, or PHX) from ISP, but since ISP is technically a NYC Airport (per the FAA), they could market it as such.

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