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CobaltScar
Posts: 752
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: WN to close EWR

Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Makes sense for B6 to grow at EWR since they are maxed at JFK and hemmed in at LGA. Shame that EWR is a absolute black hole for on time lines of flying.
 
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jetblastdubai
Posts: 1977
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Re: WN to close EWR

Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:38 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
Makes sense for B6 to grow at EWR since they are maxed at JFK and hemmed in at LGA. Shame that EWR is a absolute black hole for on time lines of flying.


If B6, or anyone, add the 20 flights that WN is going to cut, EWR will continue to be a black hole for on-time. If the remaining carriers at EWR maintain their status quo, the on-time numbers for the airport should be a little better.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: WN to close EWR

Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:43 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
jetblastdubai wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Makes sense for B6 to grow at EWR since they are maxed at JFK and hemmed in at LGA. Shame that EWR is a absolute black hole for on time lines of flying.


If B6, or anyone, add the 20 flights that WN is going to cut, EWR will continue to be a black hole for on-time. If the remaining carriers at EWR maintain their status quo, the on-time numbers for the airport should be a little better.

Any little bit helps, but I have to imagine it is so far on the margins to actually matter much.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
flybry
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:42 am

Do you think anyone might come in and start DEN-EWR so it’s not a United monopoly route?
 
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STT757
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:01 am

Good point brought up in this article not yet mentioned here, how much credit should United get for WN's decision to leave EWR?

They point out that during Kirby's time at US Airways they beat back an aggressive WN expansion at PHL. While WN didn't drop PHL altogether, they did do a drastic draw down of their flights.

https://skift.com/2019/07/25/did-an-agg ... ewark-hub/


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Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
jplatts
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:10 am

STT757 wrote:
They point out that during Kirby's time at US Airways they beat back an aggressive WN expansion at PHL. While WN didn't drop PHL altogether, they did do a drastic draw down of their flights.


While WN has significantly downsized PHL, there have been a few adds made by WN out of PHL since the downsizing, including WN inheriting PHL-ATL nonstop route through the WN-FL merger, WN adding PHL-DAL nonstop service, WN bringing back PHL-HOU nonstop service, and WN increasing frequencies on PHL-DEN and PHL-STL nonstop service.

Most of WN's nonstop routes out of PHL had average load factors over 80% in 2018, and PHL-MDW was the only WN nonstop route out of PHL that had average load factors under 80%.
 
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knope2001
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:24 am

Although not specifcally tied to Southwest's profit/loss at EWR, it's been quite a drag operationally.

12 months ending 5/31/2019 (simple average of all 12 monthy stats)

On Time
78.9% Southwest network on time

LGA
67.5%, Southwest on time
--11.4 points worse than Southwest network
--3.6 points lower than the airport average of 70.1%

EWR
56.8% Southwest on time
--22.1 points worse than the Southwest network
--10.5 points lower than the airport average of 67.3%
--10.7 points worse than Southwest LaGuardia
 
Jshank83
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:35 am

flybry wrote:
Do you think anyone might come in and start DEN-EWR so it’s not a United monopoly route?


F9 is about the only one that makes much sense to me. I can’t see DL or AA running it.
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:19 am

Midwestindy wrote:
https://skift.com/2019/07/25/did-an-aggressive-united-push-southwest-out-of-newark-hub/

"Newark, any student of Southwest will quickly understand our approach here and this is a tactical decision forced by the MAX groundings and the painful cut of 8% of our capacity" CEO Gary Kelly said on the airline’s earnings call.

“We need the airplanes,” Kelly said. “We can’t afford in this highly competitive environment, where our capacity overall is cut, to have underperforming assets.”

Directly from his mouth, directly saying that the MAX groundings caused this decision. No need to pretend like MAX groundings had nothing to do with this.


Respectfully, I didn't mean to imply that the MAX groundings didn't play a role. My argument was that the ongoing MAX groundings and the operational and/or economic impacts was the final straw that forced WN's decision to close EWR. I didn't see that quote from the article you linked in your reply, so that does shed some light. I don't think you're wrong in your statement, but I just saw things differently (and, opinions and views sometimes can be swayed in a 24 hour period).
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW, PHL, MIA, LAX; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), B739 (DL), B712 (DL), B752 (AA), B763 (AA), B77W (AA), B789 (AA)
Next: TBA
 
sprxUSA
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:36 am

Earlier simeone posred EWR was all 800s all long haul. Far from it. Today (Friday 7/26) 3 of the 15 departures were 700s. And they were not swapped from -8 or -800s. IAD is all 800s iirc, to DEN and ATL..
Gem State Airlines..."we have a gem of an airline"
 
Jerseyguy
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:45 am

jayunited wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
Definitely for the best. LGA while not the best option for Manhattan is arguably able to service every borough in NYC better than EWR.
Hopefully we will see some increase of flights out of LGA especially as more gate space is opened up with the renovations (the new area of the Central terminal at LGA is truly world class
its beautiful).


How is LGA any better than EWR? How many flights leave LGA on-time after 2 or 3 pm? If your goal is to take in the central terminal then yes LGA is truly world class as you claim. But if your goal is to get to your destination on time in the afternoon or evening LGA is just as congested and delay prone as EWR.

This may come down to cost the NJ Senate approved a a massive gas tax hike. Originally the gas tax was only supposed to apply to UA flights but UA successfully blocked that measure which then forced the NJ Senate to amend the bill which now applies to all airlines. Under the old NJ law airlines only paid taxes on the "Burnout". that is gas they burned during taxi and takeoff, once out of NJ airspace the remainder of the gas was tax free. The new law which now applies to every airline means airlines are now paying taxes on every gallon of gas purchased at EWR. UA wanted to kill this bill but since they couldn't do that what they did accomplish is the amendment that applies this new law to every airline and not just UA.
https://www.njspotlight.com/stories/18/ ... t-pleased/

I think the increased operating cost across the board at EWR is the main reason WN is pulling out and the NJ Senate was warned this would happen if this bill passed.

tphuang wrote:
And now WN is gone. Even I'm shocked they are giving up completely at EWR. What's the point of keeping ISP open now?
Is this the biggest station closure since UA at JFK? I would think so.
UA must be happy. I hope they don't get subleased those gates. It should go to B6/NK/F9 or whoever is willing to put up some more competition vs UA.
Com'on B6, you have been gate constrained at EWR. This is as good of an opportunity as any to add gate/slots.


As expensive as it is to operate out of EWR the only airline I see going after more gates is B6. The high cost at EWR make it unlikely (in my opinion) that we would see any movement from NK or F9.


Score one for Murphy, reduce competition and raise fares out of Newark by raising taxes to pay for all your lofty goals. This is good for TTN though, with higher prices out of EWR, people will be looking for cheaper alternative and for the southern half of the catchment TTN will fit the bill. I pretty much only flew out of EWR for Southwest and the low prices they brought. I guess its goodbye to EWR hello to TTN and PHL. I'm going to miss the EWR-AUS nonstops.
 
tmu101
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:06 am

I never understood why Southwest never gave Stewart airport a try.
 
rbavfan
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:51 am

STT757 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Polot wrote:
The Max is being used as a scapegoat to lessen the blow and give hope that they will come back. If that plane was truly needed to keep the station open then EWR was barely hanging on to begin with. Southwest, like any airline, would shuffle to keep profitable routes/stations operating as robustly as possible.

Exactly. Ridiculous spin to blame the MAX. Also, are they not selling their gates there? If they are just abandoning them in return for nothing they are not that savvy. EWR is borderline slot restricted. Their position there has value.

Apart from all of that, I can’t believe they would just give up there. True, they have tried numerous routes, but to 50% give up on NYC is shocking.


They’re also giving up the ability to fly outer perimeter flights from NY like PHX, LAS, OAK etc..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


WN has always place point to point above 1 stop services. Many 1 stop flights over the years have not been listed for sale. But you could book them each single ticket and off you go.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:08 am

I think Frontier would be crazy to not try EWR-DEN. This is horrible new for us frequent flyers on the EWR-DEN route i remember the old days when United has a monopoly. The premium for a N/S was insane!
 
rbavfan
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:25 am

lat41 wrote:
STT757 wrote:
Surprised they’re not dropping ISP.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

ISP easy in/out and cheap to operate at. EWR anything but.


Also ISP higher fares then EWR can pull.
 
Justjoshua
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:59 am

Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:08 am

Houston is about to pass Chicago as the 3rd biggest city in the U.S. One would think that Southwest would start adding lots more flights out of Houston where there are no restrictions. But they keep adding flights in DAL where they are so restricted
 
AviationKnurd
Posts: 15
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:21 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:
AviationKnurd wrote:

Yes, they are closing EWR, however to say it’s because of the the MAX is patently false and an assumption based little knowledge and high-level analysis. Shame on CNBC

One needs not to look any further than the slew of financial and operational constraints WN’s EWR operation places on them for which the reasons are seemingly endless:

-The need to allocate more block time to EWR flights in order to account for EWR’s proneness to ATC delays,
-The rather high CASM, relatively speaking, associated w/EWR,
-Opportunity cost of placing aircraft on EWR routes when they could be placed elsewhere and achieve much better operational efficiencies and more optimally utilized to generate better revenues
-The fact that WN can serve NYC from LGA and to a lessor extent, ISP (I mean UA abandoned JFK for EWR, while at a different scale, for many of the same reasons WN is leaving EWR, and I’d say that move was a good one for UA)
-WN’s presence in NYC is a token one to serve their customers based in other cities like MCI, MKE, STL, etc, NOT those in NYC

But no, news outlets like CNBC see the “sexy” headline of how the “MAX grounding is now causing airlines to close airports”, despite its GROSS INACCURACIES and run with it. So sad


This is the entire paragraph from WN's own Investor Relations statement from Gary Kelly which references the closing of their EWR station, to add some context behind the "WN leaving EWR because of 3M8 groundings" theory (of course, A.net being A.net, that might be wishful thinking):

"Based on the extensive delays in returning the MAX to service, we expect that annual 2019 ASMs will now decrease in the 1 to 2 percent range, year-over-year, compared with our original 2019 plan to grow capacity nearly 5 percent, year-over-year. As such, we are taking necessary steps to mitigate damages and optimize our aircraft and resources. We will cease operations at Newark Liberty International Airport and consolidate our New York City presence at New York LaGuardia Airport, effective November 3, 2019. The financial results at Newark have been below expectations, despite the efforts of our excellent Team at Newark. I am grateful to our wonderful Newark Employees, who are a top priority, and will be given an opportunity to relocate to another station in our system, including LaGuardia Airport, where we are experiencing strong Customer demand. As part of this move, we will offer options and flexibility for Customers to recover planned travel from other area airports."

Feel free to interpret this however you see fit, but, based on reading the entire paragraph, the 3M8 groundings could be seen as a ripple effect on EWR, but I interpret Kelly's remarks as to say that EWR was underperforming financially. Now, if you want to claim the 3M8 groundings reference was "an excuse" to drop EWR, that's your choice. But, from the sounds of it, EWR has been underperforming for quite some time and the ongoing 3M8 situation might have been the last straw on top of EWR's high operating costs and chronic delays as mentioned upthread.

The closure affects 125 employees (all but one corporate sales position assigned to ground ops) and (as noted earlier in this thread) drops 20 flights to 10 cities, per WN's EWR fact sheet.

As to your original point, I agree with you that media outlets in general tend to demonstrate an ignorance towards properly interpreting facts and/or statements for various reasons (generating clicks, pushing agendas, etc.). CNBC's reporting on the WN/EWR closing was more of an attempt at the former, in my personal opinion.


https://skift.com/2019/07/25/did-an-agg ... ewark-hub/

"Newark, any student of Southwest will quickly understand our approach here and this is a tactical decision forced by the MAX groundings and the painful cut of 8% of our capacity" CEO Gary Kelly said on the airline’s earnings call.

“We need the airplanes,” Kelly said. “We can’t afford in this highly competitive environment, where our capacity overall is cut, to have underperforming assets.”



Directly from his mouth, directly saying that the MAX groundings caused this decision. No need to pretend like MAX groundings had nothing to do with this.



100% correct, there's no disputing what Gary said who I respect more than any other CEO out there in any industry, not just the airlines. Having said that, sometimes we need to read between the lines to get the real story.

I can not reiterate this point enough... IF EWR wasn't "under-performing" as Kelly also stated, it would NOT have been completely cut from their network, plain and simple. WN would have most certainly found a way to retain the station despite the MAX groundings and as we all know, that wasn't the case.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2157
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:17 pm

capitalflyer wrote:
Lot's of intriguing theories about what might be going on with WN vis a vis UA. UA flies 5x DCA-CLE. If UA wanted to cut CLE all together from DCA, that would be 5 slot pairs available for WN. 5x to BOS would be a nice opening salvo to join the BOS shuttle skirmish...

Or they could add IND, DTW, SDF, CLT (look out AA!), MSP (chall-ange DL!), PIT, or CLE.

Or more likely, none of this happens. UA gets some relief from the MAX debacle, WN goes on making money after prudent pruning move, and we are left to wonder what might have been. But saying nothing is going on is no fun.

No it doesn’t give WN slots, UA owns them and can see fit to use them in the perimeter.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2157
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:20 pm

WN732 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
twaconnie wrote:
It's also rumored that the perimeter rule my be relaxed or eliminated after the airport is redone.This will no doubt help WN expand it's presence at LGA.



Dont expect it to happen. It imperils JFK and it imperils B6, which employs 1000 people at its HQ in Queens.

WN, on the other hand, has made virtually zero investment in NYC. Their Concourse B at LGA was the most disgusting gate area I have ever been in.

The perimeter rule is purely a political decision from the early 1980. The politics havent changed


Well you need to look at the owners of LGA rather than the tenant which has no control over the facilities. Besides, the new gates they have are fantastic.

No true,WN can fix up there gate
 
AviationKnurd
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:10 am

Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:32 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
WN732 wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
Tomorrow, a random check.
DEN-ABQ WN: $271, UA:$262, F9: $44
LAX-SFO: WN,AS,DL,UA all $184
CHI-BNA: WN,AA,UA all $355
ATL-FLL: DL: $152, WN $282


First of all, it's tomorrow, on a very limited showing of routes. You're comparing Basic Economy fares, and not including the cost of luggage.

Tomorrow is exactly what he asked for.

What does luggage have to do with it?

I suppose it is not fair to use UA basic economy (no carry on), but the comparison shows that WN is in the same ball park as the legacies, even for last minute fares. Just from personal experience WN is even less competitive for tickets bought before the 14-21 day restrictions on many legacy fares kick in.


Yup, "tomorrow was what I asked for"! Thank you Aliqiout for helping me illustrate my point! And, here's what I mean by that...

If we look at the non-stop routes you selected, extract the mileage of the route, and then bump the route up against routes of a similar distance that WN doesn't serve, but at least one legacy carrier does (AA, DL, or UA), and have a look at the prices and compare those prices to the prices for the route you selected (in bold and italicized), it' fairly indisputable that WN's presence in a route has a rather dramatic impact on airfares. And, while we're only looking at close-in fares for the flights on the very next day, I think this little exercise illustrates my original point that WN causes fares to drop in a market and is a pricing leader in the industry. Perhaps it doesn't appear that way when we look at airfare on a route that both WN and other airlines serve, especially the legacies, because they just MATCH WN's price points, BUT if WN weren't in that route, I can tell you with a very high degree of certainty that airfare on said route would be higher.

DEN-ABQ 349 miles; WN: $271, UA:$262, F9: $44
LAX-SFO 337 miles: WN, AS, DL ,UA all $184
**ATL-MEM 332 miles** $409 **2 WN cities that aren't served n/s by WN**
**DEN-AMA 359 miles** $323
PHL-BTV 335 miles $452
ATL-JAN 340 miles $409
SFO-MFR 329 miles $279

CHI-BNA: WN (MDW) 395 miles; AA,UA (ORD) 409 miles all $355
DFW-JAN 408 miles $347
DFW-BTR 383 miles $347
ORD-DLH 397 miles $281
ORD-ERI 398 miles $333
**GSP-IAD 384 miles** $306

ATL-FLL 581 miles: DL: $152, WN $282
**ORD(MDW)-TUL** 585 miles $424
**GSP-ORD(MDW) 577 miles** $373
**ORD(MDW)-FAR 557 miles** $508
**ORD(MDW)-ICT 588 miles** $403
**DEN-MAF 563 miles** $303
**ORD(MDW)-LIT 552 miles** $405
ATL-SHV 551 miles $509

Other notable city pairs where WN serves each city, but NOT the non-stop city-pair itself:
PIT-PHL 268 miles $541
ATL-CHS 259 miles $409
ORD(MDW)-RIC 642 miles $402
ORD(MDW)-DSM 299 miles $385
ORD(MDW)-ROC 528 miles $382
GSP-PHL 515 miles $380
IAD-BNA 542 miles $356
IAD-SDF 451 miles $339

Aviation Knurd
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:50 pm

From 1995-2010 the NYC area when through a huge revival

It became a hot spot for population growth, urban renewal, and business growth.

Around 2010, something interesting happened...the area started choking on its own population growth. Infrastructure that was 100 years old started to crumble and collapse under the strain.

People not in the region dont understand the crisis we are facing. We have round the clock traffic jams. Our mass transit is no longer reliable. We are choked with app based taxis. People are biking and getting killed on cramped streets. The Airtrain systems are inadequate. Runway capacity is inadequate. You face 15 minute traffic jams on terminal roadways just to get to terminal doors.

NY is one big, crowded mess.

Furthermore, like the rest of the country, we have become politically polarized.

After excessive financial difficulties in the 60s and 70s under liberal rule, the area trended more moderate politically from the 80s thru the 2010s. A more business friendly tone was adopted.

The area started a leftward movement around 2010. This has led to a markedly-less business friendly environment.

You put the crumbling infrastructure and the leftward political tilt together and you have a host of new fees, taxes, and tolls that have hit NY and NJ in the last year. The Port Authority just proposed massive increases in tolls, fares and fees that will make your trip to EWR a lot more expensive next year.

$4 on your taxi drop off. $7.75 just to ride the AirTrain. Tolls closing in on $20 to get thru the tunnel to the city.

Long story short, Amazon was the biggest story, but lots of businesses are looking at all of this with weary eyes.

Frankly, it is just too hard to live, work and play here.

In a round about way...WN is just saying, it isnt worth it for this Texas airline. Frankly, I dont blame them
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4798
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:23 pm

I don't blame southwest for leaving EWR, the NY airports are horrible and costs run super high. They do a MAX problem and this helps
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2226
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:55 pm

JFK actually seems logical at this point. AA is squatting on slots that Southwest could purchase (maybe) and make plenty use for their NYC operation.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
twaconnie
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:18 pm

Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:32 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
JFK actually seems logical at this point. AA is squatting on slots that Southwest could purchase (maybe) and make plenty use for their NYC operation.

B6 would sure have something to say about WN picking up AA slots at JFK.
 
Buffalomatt1027
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:02 am

Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:50 pm

While WN isnt in the big 3 of NYC airports ...... its still in ISP. So its not like its completely abandoned the NYC market.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2157
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:56 pm

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:
While WN isnt in the big 3 of NYC airports ...... its still in ISP. So its not like its completely abandoned the NYC market.

WN flies in and out of LGA.
 
caljn
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:37 pm

Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:03 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
From 1995-2010 the NYC area when through a huge revival

It became a hot spot for population growth, urban renewal, and business growth.

Around 2010, something interesting happened...the area started choking on its own population growth. Infrastructure that was 100 years old started to crumble and collapse under the strain.

People not in the region dont understand the crisis we are facing. We have round the clock traffic jams. Our mass transit is no longer reliable. We are choked with app based taxis. People are biking and getting killed on cramped streets. The Airtrain systems are inadequate. Runway capacity is inadequate. You face 15 minute traffic jams on terminal roadways just to get to terminal doors.

NY is one big, crowded mess.

Furthermore, like the rest of the country, we have become politically polarized.

After excessive financial difficulties in the 60s and 70s under liberal rule, the area trended more moderate politically from the 80s thru the 2010s. A more business friendly tone was adopted.

The area started a leftward movement around 2010. This has led to a markedly-less business friendly environment.

You put the crumbling infrastructure and the leftward political tilt together and you have a host of new fees, taxes, and tolls that have hit NY and NJ in the last year. The Port Authority just proposed massive increases in tolls, fares and fees that will make your trip to EWR a lot more expensive next year.

$4 on your taxi drop off. $7.75 just to ride the AirTrain. Tolls closing in on $20 to get thru the tunnel to the city.

Long story short, Amazon was the biggest story, but lots of businesses are looking at all of this with weary eyes.

Frankly, it is just too hard to live, work and play here.

In a round about way...WN is just saying, it isnt worth it for this Texas airline. Frankly, I dont blame them



A "less business friendly environment" that has attracted, as you state, record growth. Interesting.
And evidently the leftward tilt was not left enough as we're still straining under overused infrastructure with little plan to improve...except that one key project a governor with an "R" next to his name killed. Oh the irony.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3697
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:09 pm

twaconnie wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
JFK actually seems logical at this point. AA is squatting on slots that Southwest could purchase (maybe) and make plenty use for their NYC operation.

B6 would sure have something to say about WN picking up AA slots at JFK.


WN has no need to serve MCI, MKE, or STL nonstop from JFK since WN already serves these destinations nonstop from LGA and since none of WN's competitors currently serve these destinations nonstop from JFK.

Most of the destinations that WN would be serving nonstop from JFK already have nonstop service out of JFK on B6, AA, or DL. WN also already has nonstop service out of LGA to the within-LGA perimeter destinations that it would be serving nonstop from JFK.

There are also some WN FF's in some of the beyond-LGA perimeter markets in the Western U.S. who are willing to fly to JFK on B6.

There are also some passengers who already connect to LGA from beyond-LGA perimeter destinations such as ABQ, AUS, LAS, LAX, OAK, PHX, PDX, SMF, SLC, SAT, SAN, SJC, and SEA on WN.
 
rjmf22
Posts: 134
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 10:37 pm

Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:46 pm

flybry wrote:
Do you think anyone might come in and start DEN-EWR so it’s not a United monopoly route?


Perhaps, but if anything, UA will simply add another daily flight.
United Airlines
 
Lootess
Posts: 490
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:48 pm

enilria wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
STT757 wrote:

They’re also giving up the ability to fly outer perimeter flights from NY like PHX, LAS, OAK etc..


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United is almost finished turning EWR into a fortress hub. WN has always had issues competing in the fortresses, and given WN’s much higher employee costs, recent NJ laws have no doubt increased that, as well. Without the scale the Max offered, I can see a good reason to leave.

It's been a fortress hub for a long time. This is another step toward a near total monopoly. Shame on the DOJ/DOT for considering NYC as a unit competitively. It is just an excuse to allow the death of competition.


Even more so that UA was leasing the slots to WN if I recall? They didn't require relinquishment just allowing another DOJ 'preferred' airline to be able to have at it.

WN has always had trouble with fortress hubs, but that's not surprising when the top carriers already had a long following and contracts, along with the upward and healthy business climate. UA didn't have to bat a fly the DOJ directive, NYC is a big market.

DL has had competition with WN for years in SLC well before MSP and ATL, and that was ho-hum. We all know how PHL turned out for WN when US didn't perish.
 
flybry
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:33 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I think Frontier would be crazy to not try EWR-DEN. This is horrible new for us frequent flyers on the EWR-DEN route i remember the old days when United has a monopoly. The premium for a N/S was insane!


I agree! I’m so upset United will have this route as a monopoly. Part of the deal for the United/Continental merger was to give up some EWR slots that Southwest got to ensure competition. So much for competition :/
 
flybry
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:34 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
flybry wrote:
Do you think anyone might come in and start DEN-EWR so it’s not a United monopoly route?


F9 is about the only one that makes much sense to me. I can’t see DL or AA running it.


I think you’re right. But I don’t think F9 currently flies to EWR?
 
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stl07
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:37 pm

Odd how the moment a few of us offered our OPINION on WN and constructive criticism, we were immediately labeled WN haters. People need to understand that WN also needs to change and adapt to the market, they are not perfect now just because they were the golden standard of aviation when they launched, and they need to change. I appreciate those who disagreed but with actual facts/discussion material.
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malev2012
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:46 pm

flybry wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
flybry wrote:
Do you think anyone might come in and start DEN-EWR so it’s not a United monopoly route?


F9 is about the only one that makes much sense to me. I can’t see DL or AA running it.


I think you’re right. But I don’t think F9 currently flies to EWR?

I think NK has to fly their new planes somewhere...
Airlines flown: AA, AB, AC, AY, BA, CO, DL, DY, EW, F9, G4, IB, KL, LH, LX, NK, NW, NZ, OS, QF, SN, TP, UA, US, VA, VC, WN, XE
 
Cubsrule
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:49 pm

Lootess wrote:
enilria wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
United is almost finished turning EWR into a fortress hub. WN has always had issues competing in the fortresses, and given WN’s much higher employee costs, recent NJ laws have no doubt increased that, as well. Without the scale the Max offered, I can see a good reason to leave.

It's been a fortress hub for a long time. This is another step toward a near total monopoly. Shame on the DOJ/DOT for considering NYC as a unit competitively. It is just an excuse to allow the death of competition.


Even more so that UA was leasing the slots to WN if I recall? They didn't require relinquishment just allowing another DOJ 'preferred' airline to be able to have at it.

WN has always had trouble with fortress hubs, but that's not surprising when the top carriers already had a long following and contracts, along with the upward and healthy business climate. UA didn't have to bat a fly the DOJ directive, NYC is a big market.

DL has had competition with WN for years in SLC well before MSP and ATL, and that was ho-hum. We all know how PHL turned out for WN when US didn't perish.


Is trouble in fortress hubs a WN-specific phenomenon? AA’s station at ATL, UA’s station at MIA, and DL’s station at IAH aren’t exactly anything to write home about. Heck, MDW and DAL are for all intents and purposes fortress hubs and look at the legacy operations there.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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N717TW
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:40 pm

Is it just me or are others shocked at this. They have effectively abandoned Northern NJ and Rockland County NY given that most from that area would avoid traveling across Manhattan or the Bronx to get to LGA unless the airfare is significantly cheaper. (Same for driving all way down to PHL) Trying not to restart the crazy EWR vs JFK treads but honestly, Northern NJ would be a top 15 metro area on its own...so would be like WN pulling out of DTW, ATL, SEA or BOS. In an age when they have moved beyond being the airline of the exurbs and medium cities to one that completes with the big boys and can connect you to just about all major and medium cities in the country, this is a big hole.
 
Scarebus34
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:44 pm

flybry wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I think Frontier would be crazy to not try EWR-DEN. This is horrible new for us frequent flyers on the EWR-DEN route i remember the old days when United has a monopoly. The premium for a N/S was insane!


I agree! I’m so upset United will have this route as a monopoly. Part of the deal for the United/Continental merger was to give up some EWR slots that Southwest got to ensure competition. So much for competition :/

They had their chance at competing and the market has spoken.
 
N383SW
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:11 am

Scarebus34 wrote:
flybry wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I think Frontier would be crazy to not try EWR-DEN. This is horrible new for us frequent flyers on the EWR-DEN route i remember the old days when United has a monopoly. The premium for a N/S was insane!


I agree! I’m so upset United will have this route as a monopoly. Part of the deal for the United/Continental merger was to give up some EWR slots that Southwest got to ensure competition. So much for competition :/

They had their chance at competing and the market has spoken.


I’m confused about whom you’re referring to? If its WN I think it was more about then (Southwest) speaking and not the “market”. I’ll admit I was as shocked as everyone else that they’re pulling out of EWR but they’re in a tight spot (no other fleet type, no way to put another fleet type in service quickly, and they’re spread extremely thin on airplanes). They want to grow in other places and they feel LGA is enough for them and their NYC presence. If this was F9 or another airline that has “struggled” I could totally see your point, but WN isn’t a struggling carrier.
 
Vctony
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:42 am

Cubsrule wrote:
Lootess wrote:
enilria wrote:
It's been a fortress hub for a long time. This is another step toward a near total monopoly. Shame on the DOJ/DOT for considering NYC as a unit competitively. It is just an excuse to allow the death of competition.


Even more so that UA was leasing the slots to WN if I recall? They didn't require relinquishment just allowing another DOJ 'preferred' airline to be able to have at it.

WN has always had trouble with fortress hubs, but that's not surprising when the top carriers already had a long following and contracts, along with the upward and healthy business climate. UA didn't have to bat a fly the DOJ directive, NYC is a big market.

DL has had competition with WN for years in SLC well before MSP and ATL, and that was ho-hum. We all know how PHL turned out for WN when US didn't perish.


Is trouble in fortress hubs a WN-specific phenomenon? AA’s station at ATL, UA’s station at MIA, and DL’s station at IAH aren’t exactly anything to write home about. Heck, MDW and DAL are for all intents and purposes fortress hubs and look at the legacy operations there.


AA's operation at ATL actually isn't half bad. Lots of mainline and decent frequencies. In fact, I think ATL is probably AA's largest station that is a fortress hub of another airline.
 
StinkyPinky
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:29 am

Vctony wrote:

AA's operation at ATL actually isn't half bad. Lots of mainline and decent frequencies. In fact, I think ATL is probably AA's largest station that is a fortress hub of another airline.


AA even has a satellite crew base in ATL. Flew AA LAX-ATL and the crew were all based in ATL, and 30+ years seniority.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:35 pm

Yes, AA has decent gates and a decent operation in ATL.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:38 pm

caljn wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
From 1995-2010 the NYC area when through a huge revival

It became a hot spot for population growth, urban renewal, and business growth.

Around 2010, something interesting happened...the area started choking on its own population growth. Infrastructure that was 100 years old started to crumble and collapse under the strain.

People not in the region dont understand the crisis we are facing. We have round the clock traffic jams. Our mass transit is no longer reliable. We are choked with app based taxis. People are biking and getting killed on cramped streets. The Airtrain systems are inadequate. Runway capacity is inadequate. You face 15 minute traffic jams on terminal roadways just to get to terminal doors.

NY is one big, crowded mess.

Furthermore, like the rest of the country, we have become politically polarized.

After excessive financial difficulties in the 60s and 70s under liberal rule, the area trended more moderate politically from the 80s thru the 2010s. A more business friendly tone was adopted.

The area started a leftward movement around 2010. This has led to a markedly-less business friendly environment.

You put the crumbling infrastructure and the leftward political tilt together and you have a host of new fees, taxes, and tolls that have hit NY and NJ in the last year. The Port Authority just proposed massive increases in tolls, fares and fees that will make your trip to EWR a lot more expensive next year.

$4 on your taxi drop off. $7.75 just to ride the AirTrain. Tolls closing in on $20 to get thru the tunnel to the city.

Long story short, Amazon was the biggest story, but lots of businesses are looking at all of this with weary eyes.

Frankly, it is just too hard to live, work and play here.

In a round about way...WN is just saying, it isnt worth it for this Texas airline. Frankly, I dont blame them



A "less business friendly environment" that has attracted, as you state, record growth. Interesting.
And evidently the leftward tilt was not left enough as we're still straining under overused infrastructure with little plan to improve...except that one key project a governor with an "R" next to his name killed. Oh the irony.



Dont be bashful or post in code.

Name the project that was killed, along with the price tag.

Im sure it will spur a good conversation about the merits of a small state with budget issues funding a grandiose project without a federal funding backstop
 
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N717TW
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:46 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
jayunited wrote:
How is LGA any better than EWR?

Presumably, WN is making more money in LGA than EWR, thus making the delays more tolerable.


Based on what their official statements and what's written in the aviation and financial press, it looks as if WN's customers are looking for NYC than NJ. WN has a local market base out on LI with ISP (granted the number of people closer to ISP than JFK/LGA is very small) so it makes sense that those loyal b/c of ISP would also be willing to drive to LGA. The other take away is that WN's loyal passengers in the Midwest, south-central and southwest are more interested in flying to LGA than EWR. If your destination is NYC, you tend to want to fly to NYC, not NJ. (Proof: Decades of Continental ads touting "feeling like a NYer by eating a bagel on your way to Newark"; further proof: current UA ads touting Newark over JFK.)
 
Cubsrule
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:48 pm

Vctony wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Lootess wrote:

Even more so that UA was leasing the slots to WN if I recall? They didn't require relinquishment just allowing another DOJ 'preferred' airline to be able to have at it.

WN has always had trouble with fortress hubs, but that's not surprising when the top carriers already had a long following and contracts, along with the upward and healthy business climate. UA didn't have to bat a fly the DOJ directive, NYC is a big market.

DL has had competition with WN for years in SLC well before MSP and ATL, and that was ho-hum. We all know how PHL turned out for WN when US didn't perish.


Is trouble in fortress hubs a WN-specific phenomenon? AA’s station at ATL, UA’s station at MIA, and DL’s station at IAH aren’t exactly anything to write home about. Heck, MDW and DAL are for all intents and purposes fortress hubs and look at the legacy operations there.


AA's operation at ATL actually isn't half bad. Lots of mainline and decent frequencies. In fact, I think ATL is probably AA's largest station that is a fortress hub of another airline.


Isn’t it similar in size to WN’s station at PHL, which folks label a failure?
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wnflyguy
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:01 pm

tmu101 wrote:
I never understood why Southwest never gave Stewart airport a try.

It was on the radar until ALB swooped in with it's Duel Jetways for WN.

Flyguy
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mia
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:34 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Dont be bashful or post in code.

Name the project that was killed, along with the price tag.

Im sure it will spur a good conversation about the merits of a small state with budget issues funding a grandiose project without a federal funding backstop


Hes referring to the funds Christie diverted from Gateway to Pulaski skyway and related road improvements.
"Like all great travelers, I have seen more than I remember, and remember more than I have seen."
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: WN to close EWR

Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:21 pm

I knew exactly what he was referring to

This is a worldwide transportation forum.

This isnt a social media platform where we try to get in a zinger in 20 characters or less

If you want to discuss Gateway, its $15 Billion pricetag, and cancellation...Let’s have a full and complete discussion.

NJ is broke. They are huge amounts of under funded pension liabilities.

The project as structured laid all cost overruns on NJ. It wasnt palatable to the governor at the time...and he diverted funds to rebuild the Pulaski Skyway.

The new governor has yet to resume the Gateway project beyond asking the federal government for the same funding assurances the last governor was looking for.
 
jplatts
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Re: WN to close EWR

Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:49 pm

Justjoshua wrote:
Houston is about to pass Chicago as the 3rd biggest city in the U.S. One would think that Southwest would start adding lots more flights out of Houston where there are no restrictions. But they keep adding flights in DAL where they are so restricted


While DAL is currently a bigger station than HOU is, WN has actually been expanding domestically at HOU during the last 3 years, and there are still some more domestic nonstop routes such as HOU-CVG, HOU-CLE, HOU-DTW, HOU-RSW, HOU-MSP, HOU-ONT, HOU-SFO, and HOU-PBI that could be added by WN out of HOU.

New domestic nonstop routes that were added by WN out of HOU during the last 3 years include HOU-BUR, HOU-CMH, HOU-SDF, HOU-MKE, HOU-OMA, HOU-SMF, and HOU-SJC.

Reasons why WN added more flights out of DAL, despite WN being more restricted at DAL, include
(a) most of the domestic destinations served by WN have higher PDEW's to the DFW Metroplex than to Greater Houston,
(b) DAL is a better connecting point than HOU is for most of the domestic connections,
(c) there are a few legacy WN destinations such as AMA, LBB, and LIT that have daily nonstop service out of DAL but not out of HOU,
and
(d) WN offers 1-stop connecting service through DAL to destinations that WN currently serves nonstop from DAL but not from HOU.

There will likely be some more new domestic nonstop routes added by WN out of HOU, and WN will likely continue to expand domestically at HOU.
 
bob75013
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Re: WN to close EWR

Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:21 pm

jplatts wrote:
Justjoshua wrote:
Houston is about to pass Chicago as the 3rd biggest city in the U.S. One would think that Southwest would start adding lots more flights out of Houston where there are no restrictions. But they keep adding flights in DAL where they are so restricted


While DAL is currently a bigger station than HOU is, WN has actually been expanding domestically at HOU during the last 3 years, and there are still some more domestic nonstop routes such as HOU-CVG, HOU-CLE, HOU-DTW, HOU-RSW, HOU-MSP, HOU-ONT, HOU-SFO, and HOU-PBI that could be added by WN out of HOU.

New domestic nonstop routes that were added by WN out of HOU during the last 3 years include HOU-BUR, HOU-CMH, HOU-SDF, HOU-MKE, HOU-OMA, HOU-SMF, and HOU-SJC.

Reasons why WN added more flights out of DAL, despite WN being more restricted at DAL, include
(a) most of the domestic destinations served by WN have higher PDEW's to the DFW Metroplex than to Greater Houston,
(b) DAL is a better connecting point than HOU is for most of the domestic connections,
(c) there are a few legacy WN destinations such as AMA, LBB, and LIT that have daily nonstop service out of DAL but not out of HOU,
and
(d) WN offers 1-stop connecting service through DAL to destinations that WN currently serves nonstop from DAL but not from HOU.

There will likely be some more new domestic nonstop routes added by WN out of HOU, and WN will likely continue to expand domestically at HOU.



and what does ANY OF THAT have to do with Newark???????
 
jplatts
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Re: WN to close EWR

Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:33 pm

bob75013 wrote:
and what does ANY OF THAT have to do with Newark???????


While Justjoshua's post and my response to his post belong in a different topic, I was just simply responding to Justjoshua's post which was posted to this topic.

WN will have more planes available for further domestic expansion elsewhere in WN's network, even at stations that WN doesn't currently serve nonstop from EWR such as HOU.

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