apodino
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AA move to T5 in LHR?

Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:25 pm

During a presentation to employees today, Doug Parker went through some slideshows about addressing Culture at AA. Buried in one of the slides was a little note that AA going forward is starting to being preliminary planning for a move to T5 in LHR to join BA. This completely surprised me and I still have my doubts, but it was very interesting. A couple of things would have to happen first. One, since T5 is maxed out, a fourth midfield concourse would have to be built. Secondly, would BA really move AA before consolidating their own ops out of T3?

As I said, it was buried quietly in a slide, but I noticed it and it does seem like its a little ways off. But I thought it was worth discussing.
 
lhrsfosyd91
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:23 pm

As we all know T5 isn't large enough for all of AA's ops but I can imagine some route consolidation (JFK, LAX, PHX, PHL or ORD).
 
jfk777
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:27 pm

Moving AA to T5 would require a huge expansion and other OW airlines like Cathay, JAL and Qatar would want to move in too.
 
tonystan
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:36 pm

Doubt it. T5 is packed. Even the IB operation in T5 is a squeeze.

The develop a T5D would also require the removal of the fuel farm which I cannot imagine is going anywhere. There is certainly nowhere suitable elsewhere for it.
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mutu
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:43 pm

lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
As we all know T5 isn't large enough for all of AA's ops but I can imagine some route consolidation (JFK, LAX, PHX, PHL or ORD).

My gut feel is there is actually more hate space than we all think. T5C is quite thin on departures albeit its predominantly longhaul so frames sit at the gate for an extended period of time. AA has the slots and T5 some gates.

It could be argue that BA's use of T3 suggests they cant fit all of their flights I to T5 so how on earth could AA move over. But that isn't the full picture. The shorthaul flights ex T3 tend to be there because there is heavy Aa Ba connect traffic. So it's to reduce the pain on the pax. But yes at certain time points there are more BA slots than T5 gates. So some swapping would be necessary.

Ideallyx T5D gets built out but that isnt in the plan now given the masterplan for T5 with the proposed third runway (if it ever happens s. So uncertainty means a T5D build would only be a fall back option and that wouldn't happen for years anyway)

Lounges are already crowded although again the issue is most pax stay in the T5A lounges until gates are announced.(an airport issue rather tha BA specific) So T5B is underutilised to an extent. But with a systems change and maybe a (largely) dedicated satellite for USA flights lounge at B could be extended and the long promised C lounge actually built.
Then the general check in area: it is already a zoo. A redesign might create more check in desks and more self check capacity. But it will.be uncomfortable. And the premium zones already lose their premium feel when the queues grow!

Baggage system can cope. So inevitably it will fail!!!
 
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janders
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:47 pm

Vasu confirmed the samething several months ago.

Approx 50 percent of LHR traffic on AA flows beyond on BA so there is impetus to colocate.
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Ryanair01
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:06 pm

AA at LHR is in a metal neutral JV with BA. From BA's viewpoint - operationally moving more routes to T3 (so AA can have space) would be a pain; commercially whatever they can do to maximise transfer traffic would be welcomed.
 
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PW100
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:10 pm

apodino wrote:
. . . . A couple of things would have to happen first. One, since T5 is maxed out, a fourth midfield concourse would have to be built. .

Nice as that would be, let them first get the third midfield concourse on the way . . . :-)
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chonetsao
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:10 pm

AA has 21 flights from LHR:

07:45 AA99 ORD
08:40 AA51 DFW
09:15 AA47 ORD
09:30 AA195 PHX
09:45 AA101 JFK
10:05 AA731 CLT
10:15 AA729 PHL
10:30 AA109 LAX
11:00 AA21 DFW
11:50 AA173 RDU
12:15 AA81 DFW
12:15 AA87 ORD
12:20 AA733 CLT
12:50 AA39 MIA
14:05 AA105 JFK
14:25 AA79 DFW
14:30 AA737 PHL
15:15 AA91 ORD
17:00 AA141 JFK
17:15 AA135 LAX
19:30 AA141 JFK

So the most demanding period is between 09:30-10:30 AS WELL AS 11:50-12:50 morning departure there are 5 gates are required at each time frame. Suppose the turn around time 2 hours, thus 9:50-12:50 AA needs a maximum of 5 gates for its flights. And between 7:15 to 11:00 possible 6-7 gates.

There is also another rumour not long ago said BA wants to consolidate all US departure into T5 satellite T5B. Well, T5B has 15 contact wide body gates and 2 remote gates, which can be turned into contact gates if BAA is to invest on it. It is certainly do-able for BA to absorb AA's 21 daily departure to T5B. But that means some flights departs between 07:30 to 12:50 or as late as 15:15 needs to be moved to T3 from BA.
 
Arion640
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:16 pm

I just can’t see BA moving AA into T5 without moving it’s own T3 Long Haul ops first.
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alancostello
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:10 pm

There is a new T5 concourse to be located north of T5 parallel to the new third runway, as well as a new facility with gates connected to the west of the exiting T5 structure, this was revealed in the Heathrow master plan video, around 1:43 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_At_8ZfqSLo
 
JonNYC
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:29 pm

as mentioned, has come up in the past:
https://thepointsguy.com/news/american- ... erminal-5/
 
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stl07
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:44 pm

Arion640 wrote:
I just can’t see BA moving AA into T5 without moving it’s own T3 Long Haul ops first.

But those are to be able to have a say on what happens in T3, nothing to do with AA if I'm correct (I may not be)
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Cubsrule
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:47 pm

chonetsao wrote:
There is also another rumour not long ago said BA wants to consolidate all US departure into T5 satellite T5B. Well, T5B has 15 contact wide body gates and 2 remote gates, which can be turned into contact gates if BAA is to invest on it. It is certainly do-able for BA to absorb AA's 21 daily departure to T5B. But that means some flights departs between 07:30 to 12:50 or as late as 15:15 needs to be moved to T3 from BA.


How does BA handle US-specific security screening now? At the gate?
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chonetsao
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:16 am

Cubsrule wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
There is also another rumour not long ago said BA wants to consolidate all US departure into T5 satellite T5B. Well, T5B has 15 contact wide body gates and 2 remote gates, which can be turned into contact gates if BAA is to invest on it. It is certainly do-able for BA to absorb AA's 21 daily departure to T5B. But that means some flights departs between 07:30 to 12:50 or as late as 15:15 needs to be moved to T3 from BA.


How does BA handle US-specific security screening now? At the gate?


Yes I believe that is still the case. After the passport and boarding pass check, passengers will take escalator downstairs to the jet bridge. Just before they enter tge jet bridge, there are a big area where 2-3 tables are, and the additional security check is performed there.
 
RvA
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:43 am

It could just be the JFK flights first for the time being. I don’t think all of AA will move over certainly not at the outset but specific flights could be moved to T5 no problem right now once the IT infrastructure etc is able to handle AA.
 
Scotron12
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:08 am

Makes a lot of sense seeing that all BA/AA flights will be consolidated at JFK in T8
 
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Aisak
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:57 am

apodino wrote:
AA going forward is starting to being preliminary planning for a move to T5 in LHR to join BA.


That sounds like "Thinking of starting to imagine how to figure out setting up something to cope up with the idea of the possibility of having the chance to open up a project to envision the remote chance of an outcome that in the end eventually will posibly deliver the dream of having the resources and capabilities to materialize a likely movement...."

Not something we will see next year

tonystan wrote:
Doubt it. T5 is packed. Even the IB operation in T5 is a squeeze.

The develop a T5D would also require the removal of the fuel farm which I cannot imagine is going anywhere. There is certainly nowhere suitable elsewhere for it.


And the fire station. No serious company will bulldoze the area for the little return of investment the project will deliver. At the area you ALREADY have 4 stands on the west side, 6 on the east and 3 on the southern part. Those are usable spaces and are in use. Let's say you build a T5D to mimic T5C... You are just getting 12 contact stands and 4 remote stands after a lot of pounds and disruption and removing of the tanks, removing the fire station, removing 13 hard stands.

Continuing building T2 to the North as how the original Heathrow East was envisioned makes more finantial sense. And it's planned.

chonetsao wrote:
AA has 21 flights from LHR:
[...]
5 gates are required at each time frame.

Contrary to the US, in Europe gates are not ussualy a problem at congested airports. Airports are slot controlled not gate controlled in Europe and LHR is no exception. Any departure flight can be handled at a gate where all passengers are processed and bussed to the plane parked at a remote stand away from the terminal building. Same way when landing, where passengers can be bussed from that remote stand to the main building and be dropped off at Arrivals joining other passengers deplaning by jetway.
Inconvinient? I don't have a strong opinion,

What really matters at LHR, and T5 complex in particular, is the maximum capacity to handle passengers. You can add as many flights as you want to T5 complex. You just need to HANDLE those passengers.
BA could "fit" at T5, even AA from T3, just having enough bus gates to handle remote stands (like gate 24x at T3) but the terminal has to have enough resources to cope with the increased flows. Those departure passengers have to go through security screening. Half of the arriving passengers will be directed straight to the UK border (those not connecting) and the other half (assuming onward intl travel) will use the train back to T5A, head to connection channel and will be rescreened again and put in the main terminal area waiting for the gate.

I'm not sure if the UK border at T5 can cope with the increased number of paseengers without 2 hour queues. More people to re-screen at T5 meaning more risk of people missing therir flights because of congestion. T5A neededing enough floor space for those passengers... T5 complex is just not designed to cope with more than 50% of LHR passengers.

chonetsao wrote:
There is also another rumour not long ago said BA wants to consolidate all US departure into T5 satellite T5B. Well, T5B has 15 contact wide body gates and 2 remote gates, which can be turned into contact gates if BAA is to invest on it. It is certainly do-able for BA to absorb AA's 21 daily departure to T5B. But that means some flights departs between 07:30 to 12:50 or as late as 15:15 needs to be moved to T3 from BA.

That could be a really good idea to divert some of the passengers from T5A just wandering around to gate for their gate to be published. If you know ALL US flights depart from an specific terminal and LHR complies with it and always publish on the screens that the flight are departing from T5B, all passengers can just shortcut to T5B. MAD is actually designed that way. If your flight departs from T4S you just take a lift to the train just after security screening. But LHR shopping mall....
 
APYu
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:17 am

Not sure how they could just move the JFK flights without encountering some significant operational pain (and therefore cost). Theres around a 50% chance an AA outbound to JFK actually arrived from JFK.
Whilst it might please AA to move into T5, BA would have to move more flights out to make room there is no question. BA departures from T3 are a definite downgrade so I cant imagine many yelps of joy when a boatload of other flights move there to make way for AA at T5
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skipness1E
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:02 am

mutu wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
As we all know T5 isn't large enough for all of AA's ops but I can imagine some route consolidation (JFK, LAX, PHX, PHL or ORD).

My gut feel is there is actually more hate space than we all think. T5C is quite thin on departures albeit its predominantly longhaul so frames sit at the gate for an extended period of time. AA has the slots and T5 some gates.

It could be argue that BA's use of T3 suggests they cant fit all of their flights I to T5 so how on earth could AA move over. But that isn't the full picture. The shorthaul flights ex T3 tend to be there because there is heavy Aa Ba connect traffic. So it's to reduce the pain on the pax. But yes at certain time points there are more BA slots than T5 gates. So some swapping would be necessary.

Ideallyx T5D gets built out but that isnt in the plan now given the masterplan for T5 with the proposed third runway (if it ever happens s. So uncertainty means a T5D build would only be a fall back option and that wouldn't happen for years anyway)

Lounges are already crowded although again the issue is most pax stay in the T5A lounges until gates are announced.(an airport issue rather tha BA specific) So T5B is underutilised to an extent. But with a systems change and maybe a (largely) dedicated satellite for USA flights lounge at B could be extended and the long promised C lounge actually built.
Then the general check in area: it is already a zoo. A redesign might create more check in desks and more self check capacity. But it will.be uncomfortable. And the premium zones already lose their premium feel when the queues grow!

Baggage system can cope. So inevitably it will fail!!!

Your gut feel that there is room is wrong. There's a whole load of off-stand holding for gates impacting BA's OTP stats. It's not ideal as things stand, and there's no room for the AA operation, the best he'd get would be split ops across T3 and T5 with JFK perhaps using T5. Also BA is morning heavy so to fit that in, BA would need to swap their own long haul out to T3. Might make sense on the financial side of JFK on the JV but an operational pain in the backside IMHO.
Not sure the BA short haul at T3 are there to support AA/BA connections, I understood they were there as they were not so strong on BA/BA connections?
 
Pennineuk
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:03 am

If the aim was to have AA and BA 'under one roof', one solution would be to extend the transit at T5 through to T3. Pax would checkin at T5 and just have a longer ride to T5D (aka T3)
 
chonetsao
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:49 am

Aisak wrote:
apodino wrote:


chonetsao wrote:
AA has 21 flights from LHR:
[...]
5 gates are required at each time frame.

Contrary to the US, in Europe gates are not ussualy a problem at congested airports. Airports are slot controlled not gate controlled in Europe and LHR is no exception. Any departure flight can be handled at a gate where all passengers are processed and bussed to the plane parked at a remote stand away from the terminal building. Same way when landing, where passengers can be bussed from that remote stand to the main building and be dropped off at Arrivals joining other passengers deplaning by jetway.
Inconvinient? I don't have a strong opinion,

What really matters at LHR, and T5 complex in particular, is the maximum capacity to handle passengers. You can add as many flights as you want to T5 complex. You just need to HANDLE those passengers.
BA could "fit" at T5, even AA from T3, just having enough bus gates to handle remote stands (like gate 24x at T3) but the terminal has to have enough resources to cope with the increased flows. Those departure passengers have to go through security screening. Half of the arriving passengers will be directed straight to the UK border (those not connecting) and the other half (assuming onward intl travel) will use the train back to T5A, head to connection channel and will be rescreened again and put in the main terminal area waiting for the gate.

I'm not sure if the UK border at T5 can cope with the increased number of paseengers without 2 hour queues. More people to re-screen at T5 meaning more risk of people missing therir flights because of congestion. T5A neededing enough floor space for those passengers... T5 complex is just not designed to cope with more than 50% of LHR passengers.

chonetsao wrote:
There is also another rumour not long ago said BA wants to consolidate all US departure into T5 satellite T5B. Well, T5B has 15 contact wide body gates and 2 remote gates, which can be turned into contact gates if BAA is to invest on it. It is certainly do-able for BA to absorb AA's 21 daily departure to T5B. But that means some flights departs between 07:30 to 12:50 or as late as 15:15 needs to be moved to T3 from BA.

That could be a really good idea to divert some of the passengers from T5A just wandering around to gate for their gate to be published. If you know ALL US flights depart from an specific terminal and LHR complies with it and always publish on the screens that the flight are departing from T5B, all passengers can just shortcut to T5B. MAD is actually designed that way. If your flight departs from T4S you just take a lift to the train just after security screening. But LHR shopping mall....


I am lost on your logic. First, AA is not ADDING SLOT to LHR, here we are talking about moving AA flights to T5, nothing to do with SLOT. Of course we have to discuss how many gates are available in T5. BA can not magically give AA the required gate space to accommodate flights when AA wants to move to T5.

Second, I have yet to be on an US bound flight that requires bus ride in London Heathrow. I believe almost all US bound flights departs from contact gate jet bridge in LHR. That is because additional security check at the boarding gate for US bound flights. So what is your point about bus shuttle to aircraft is not valid.

Third, AA had said almost 50% of passenger will transfer to a BA service to other places.

Fourth, since BA can not magically give AA the required GATE SPACE without moving some flights to T3, your argument about boarder congestion is non-existence. It is all about moving passengers around. AA passengers in T5 and move many BA passengers to T3. And, now US citizen can use e-gate in LHR, UK boarder Agency just need to add more automatic gate, there is no need to be panic about the 21 AA flights arriving at different time of the day.

Overall, I found your argument is self defeating and without any logic. You seems to think LHR T5 can just absorb all 21 AA flights without moving equivalent BA flights to T3. Also you seems to not understand that almost US bound flights from LHR requires contact gate thus the problem about the AA move is about availability of gate, not slot.
 
chonetsao
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:09 pm

skipness1E wrote:
mutu wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
As we all know T5 isn't large enough for all of AA's ops but I can imagine some route consolidation (JFK, LAX, PHX, PHL or ORD).

My gut feel is there is actually more hate space than we all think. T5C is quite thin on departures albeit its predominantly longhaul so frames sit at the gate for an extended period of time. AA has the slots and T5 some gates.

It could be argue that BA's use of T3 suggests they cant fit all of their flights I to T5 so how on earth could AA move over. But that isn't the full picture. The shorthaul flights ex T3 tend to be there because there is heavy Aa Ba connect traffic. So it's to reduce the pain on the pax. But yes at certain time points there are more BA slots than T5 gates. So some swapping would be necessary.

Ideallyx T5D gets built out but that isnt in the plan now given the masterplan for T5 with the proposed third runway (if it ever happens s. So uncertainty means a T5D build would only be a fall back option and that wouldn't happen for years anyway)

Lounges are already crowded although again the issue is most pax stay in the T5A lounges until gates are announced.(an airport issue rather tha BA specific) So T5B is underutilised to an extent. But with a systems change and maybe a (largely) dedicated satellite for USA flights lounge at B could be extended and the long promised C lounge actually built.
Then the general check in area: it is already a zoo. A redesign might create more check in desks and more self check capacity. But it will.be uncomfortable. And the premium zones already lose their premium feel when the queues grow!

Baggage system can cope. So inevitably it will fail!!!

Your gut feel that there is room is wrong. There's a whole load of off-stand holding for gates impacting BA's OTP stats. It's not ideal as things stand, and there's no room for the AA operation, the best he'd get would be split ops across T3 and T5 with JFK perhaps using T5. Also BA is morning heavy so to fit that in, BA would need to swap their own long haul out to T3. Might make sense on the financial side of JFK on the JV but an operational pain in the backside IMHO.
Not sure the BA short haul at T3 are there to support AA/BA connections, I understood they were there as they were not so strong on BA/BA connections?


BA's T3 flight does not really support AA connections. Most AA-BA connections requires moving between T3 to T5, thus AA recognize the upside of moving operation to T5. BA's T3 flights are really mostly due to operational reasons and also considering the partners. At the beginning BA decided all central European flights would be from T3 (VIE, BUD and PRG), then HEL in T3 with Finnair, plus BCN with Vueling. Beyond that, there are few LH destinations that suited BA's operational requirement. So, move to T5 is good for AA's connection passengers. That is the reason why AA wanted to move.

AA's JFK flight, however, is more O&D compare with other LHR flights. Moving JFK flights only, could not help AA's unhappy LHR connecting passengers. In fact, it would make more sense for BA to move all JFK flights to T3 while AA retains its JFK flight in T3, and then AA can move all other US flights to T5.

As I posted on AA's LHR departure schedule, all 21 flights are fairly even spread concentrating in the mid morning period. A maximum 6 gates are required at any given time. Thus BA just needs to move about 18 flights out from T5 to T3. If BA moves its all Spain (currently all flights are from T5 except BCN), Hong Kong, Austria (VIE from T3 but Salzburg from T5) and Japan flights to T3, AA would have the space required.

But I believe at some stage Japan Airlines and China Southern looked at the move to T5 once the operation with BA was finalized. I have no doubt that Iberia one day may move out from T5 together with BA's Madrid flights.
 
lhrsfosyd91
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:39 pm

BA's choice of destinations in T3 is purely operational - short haul ops are A320 only and long haul are overwhelmingly mid-J B747.

This is why this coming winter season Lyon and Luxembourg are moving to T5 where the flights can be operated by A319s instead of larger A320s.

The general rationale is to look at the average demand for a route and pick the ones that can support single aircraft type throughout the day.
 
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Aisak
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:41 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Not sure the BA short haul at T3 are there to support AA/BA connections, I understood they were there as they were not so strong on BA/BA connections?


At the begining, T3 was used to handle the small fleet of 757 that BA had remaining.
BAA (now Heathow airport ltd) and BA knew by the time T5 began to operate that BA 2008 would not fit into the T5 complex. So BA decided to isolate the small subfleet of 757 and leave them at T1. All A320series doing the domestic and shorthaul flying moved out of T1 and T4 to T5 on day 1. The 757 at T1 were used exclusively on MAD, BCN AGP, LIS, HEL and NCE. It was said at the time that those destinations were specifically chosen because of the partnership with IB and AY. Of course not LIS and NCE but those 757 had to fly somewhere to complete a rational schedule.

Then, one day (originally 17th sep 2008) those remaining flights moved out of T1 towards T3 along with AY HEL flights and IB MAD flights from T2. Since then the 757 subfleet was phased out (and not moved to project Lauren / openskies as originally envisioned) and replaced with A32S. T3 also housed BA the 3 flights involved in the BA-QF JointVenture: LHR-SIN, LHR-SIN-SYD and LHR-BKK-SYD at the time.

Then, destinations at T3 have been being changed from time to time swapping back and forth T5<->T3. The reason to choose a destination at T3? You might find out many. But the most logical ones are selecting those destinations with the highest number of O/D passengers, the lowest number of connections at T5 or with the highest number of connections at T2/3/4. Or a healthy mix of them.

lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
BA's choice of destinations in T3 is purely operational - short haul ops are A320 only and long haul are overwhelmingly mid-J B747.

This is why this coming winter season Lyon and Luxembourg are moving to T5 where the flights can be operated by A319s instead of larger A320s.

The general rationale is to look at the average demand for a route and pick the ones that can support single aircraft type throughout the day.


That way of selecting T3 destinations makes even more sense than looknig at connections. Just like the old days with the 757 fleet.
 
brazilrick
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:30 pm

Hi guys...longtime reader, first time posting.

Crazy idea here...in order to allow AA to move their flights (or at least part of) to T5, BA could move it's domestic and Ireland flights to T2. It's the only terminal able to receive this sort of flights, Aer Lingus (same parent company as BA) it's already there and operating a lounge. This would make some space available in T5 although mostly for smaller planes but then BA could shift other flights to have enough space to accommodate AA.

I read some post that all US flights should be on T5B. I think it's a better option on T5C. There BA and AA can isolate the US flights with the additional security screening w/o impacting the operation in other gates. They can build a lounge there (space is there and available).
 
incitatus
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:38 pm

alancostello wrote:
There is a new T5 concourse to be located north of T5 parallel to the new third runway, as well as a new facility with gates connected to the west of the exiting T5 structure, this was revealed in the Heathrow master plan video, around 1:43 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_At_8ZfqSLo


At the speed that LHR gets developed that new T5 concourse will take 65 years to open.
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by738
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:55 pm

and all those premium AA pax in the already overcrowded peak T5 lounges....
 
skipness1E
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:23 pm

brazilrick wrote:
Hi guys...longtime reader, first time posting.

Crazy idea here...in order to allow AA to move their flights (or at least part of) to T5, BA could move it's domestic and Ireland flights to T2. It's the only terminal able to receive this sort of flights, Aer Lingus (same parent company as BA) it's already there and operating a lounge. This would make some space available in T5 although mostly for smaller planes but then BA could shift other flights to have enough space to accommodate AA.

I read some post that all US flights should be on T5B. I think it's a better option on T5C. There BA and AA can isolate the US flights with the additional security screening w/o impacting the operation in other gates. They can build a lounge there (space is there and available).

That completely undermines domestic connectivity from the UK to BA's intercontinental network, not gonna happen. Right now you can arrive at a domestic stand and go straight upstairs to catch your flight to the USA, no need to re-clear security. Swapping that for a long bus ride from T2 just means that BA elites outside London would go back to using KLM.
 
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jsnww81
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:00 pm

Aisak wrote:

That sounds like "Thinking of starting to imagine how to figure out setting up something to cope up with the idea of the possibility of having the chance to open up a project to envision the remote chance of an outcome that in the end eventually will posibly deliver the dream of having the resources and capabilities to materialize a likely movement...."



AKA how the UK deals with infrastructure expansion of any kind. If there were awards for producing beautiful renderings of expanded airports, Britain would win hands down. Instead you get 30+ years of protracted fighting, and then a big shed full of shops and restaurants without any seats. Disgraceful.
 
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Aisak
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:28 pm

brazilrick wrote:
Hi guys...longtime reader, first time posting.

Crazy idea here...in order to allow AA to move their flights (or at least part of) to T5, BA could move it's domestic and Ireland flights to T2. It's the only terminal able to receive this sort of flights, Aer Lingus (same parent company as BA) it's already there and operating a lounge.

I would do just the opposite movement but just not now. One of the first “synergies” of IAG was the rationalization of the frequent JV IB-BA MAD-LHR. The first departing flights from MAD are scheduled on IB and from LHR are BA and likewise last flights to Both LHR and MAD. That way the aircraft returns to its base and there are no overnight costs. The flights during the day were evenly distributed. To run that schedule it was wise to do it at the same terminal, so BA moved its flights from T3 to T5 and IB joined even though operationally IB departures had to be treated as BA flights for quite some time.
Aer Lingus could collocate at T5 and optimize the DUB-LHR schedule with BA like MAD, but for the moment the slots used by EI at LHR are “fixed” and cannot be interchanged. That was part of the deal with the Irish gvt. If slots are fixed, schedule optimization cannot take place, the EI overnight costs at LHR will still be there so those are things against a collocation.

And as other user has said, isolating domestic and Irish at T2 will be quite a challenge for BA for the connections.

brazilrick wrote:
I read some post that all US flights should be on T5B. I think it's a better option on T5C. There BA and AA can isolate the US flights with the additional security screening w/o impacting the operation in other gates. They can build a lounge there (space is there and available).


Scheduling all US departing flights from a building would have numerous advantages. One of them is increasing T5 passenger capacity indirectly as most US bound passengers will just skip T5A and go directly to B freeing up resources at the main building.
Problem about “isolate isolate the US flights with the additional security screening w/o impacting the operation in other gates“? You are giving up a building with several connecting points (jetways) the EXCLUSIVE USE for just US bound passengers. Airports at Europe are not gate controlled but gates with jetways are a scarce resource at LHR. Operationally it doesn’t make sense to bus passengers on DEL, SIN, GRU, CPT flights while several jetways are free but cannot be used because they are exclusive to US bound passengers.

If/when UK implements US preclearance, some area will have to be isolated for just those passengers. But hopefully by that time LHR will have more terminal floor space, maybe even build with those specifications in mind.
 
lhrsfosyd91
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:33 pm

If anything it would make the most sense for EI to operate all Irish services since they are introducing Club Europe style business class. T5 does not have enough CTA capable gates to absorb EI operations. That way BA could move more short haul services to T5, especially Barcelona and Lisbon where demand often warrants A321s.
 
skipness1E
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:50 pm

BA made a conscious decision to NOT let Aer Lingus do this when BMI was taken over although they are really close to leaving LHR-HEL to their partners for some reason.
 
lhrsfosyd91
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:58 pm

Metal isn't as relevant as it was back in 2012. Gatwick to Barcelona or reduced LHR to HEL are the best of example of this.
 
apodino
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:07 pm

Aisak wrote:
brazilrick wrote:
Hi guys...longtime reader, first time posting.

Crazy idea here...in order to allow AA to move their flights (or at least part of) to T5, BA could move it's domestic and Ireland flights to T2. It's the only terminal able to receive this sort of flights, Aer Lingus (same parent company as BA) it's already there and operating a lounge.

I would do just the opposite movement but just not now. One of the first “synergies” of IAG was the rationalization of the frequent JV IB-BA MAD-LHR. The first departing flights from MAD are scheduled on IB and from LHR are BA and likewise last flights to Both LHR and MAD. That way the aircraft returns to its base and there are no overnight costs. The flights during the day were evenly distributed. To run that schedule it was wise to do it at the same terminal, so BA moved its flights from T3 to T5 and IB joined even though operationally IB departures had to be treated as BA flights for quite some time.
Aer Lingus could collocate at T5 and optimize the DUB-LHR schedule with BA like MAD, but for the moment the slots used by EI at LHR are “fixed” and cannot be interchanged. That was part of the deal with the Irish gvt. If slots are fixed, schedule optimization cannot take place, the EI overnight costs at LHR will still be there so those are things against a collocation.

And as other user has said, isolating domestic and Irish at T2 will be quite a challenge for BA for the connections.

brazilrick wrote:
I read some post that all US flights should be on T5B. I think it's a better option on T5C. There BA and AA can isolate the US flights with the additional security screening w/o impacting the operation in other gates. They can build a lounge there (space is there and available).


Scheduling all US departing flights from a building would have numerous advantages. One of them is increasing T5 passenger capacity indirectly as most US bound passengers will just skip T5A and go directly to B freeing up resources at the main building.
Problem about “isolate isolate the US flights with the additional security screening w/o impacting the operation in other gates“? You are giving up a building with several connecting points (jetways) the EXCLUSIVE USE for just US bound passengers. Airports at Europe are not gate controlled but gates with jetways are a scarce resource at LHR. Operationally it doesn’t make sense to bus passengers on DEL, SIN, GRU, CPT flights while several jetways are free but cannot be used because they are exclusive to US bound passengers.

If/when UK implements US preclearance, some area will have to be isolated for just those passengers. But hopefully by that time LHR will have more terminal floor space, maybe even build with those specifications in mind.


One solution to this can be found up in YYZ. Terminal 1 is designed so that some Jetways can be used by preclear passengers or Domestic/Intercontinental passengers. You do this by having a couple of levels to access the same jet bridge. I don't know how much sense this makes from a security standpoint if preclear doesn't happen because it is just money for what amounts to a secondary security checkpoint. (But you know if preclear happens in T5, VS/DL will want it in T3 and UA in T2. I personally don't want it to happen.)

That being said, I flew out of LHR last year back to the US, and there was no additional screening, just the same checkpoint in T3 that everyone else used, and nothing more at the gate. Has something changed recently?
 
alasizon
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:37 pm

For the people who think AA only needs six gates, its actually closer to ten gates (assuming everything is on time) once you factor in minimum on-gate time. Just using today's schedule as an example for the morning peak. Obviously in T3 currently they use multiple different gates but if everything was back to back, it would require ten gates.

Gate 1:
AA99 ORD 7:45 departure
AA20/AA21 DFW/DFW 8:10 arrival 11:00 departure

Gate 2:
AA100/AA51 JFK/DFW 6:20 arrival 8:40 departure
AA38/AA81 MIA/DFW 9:00 arrival 12:15 departure

Gate 3:
AA174/AA195 RDU/PHX 6:35 arrival 9:30 departure
AA173 RDU 11:50 departure

Gate 4:
AA86/AA47 ORD/ORD 6:50 arrival 9:15 departure
AA728/AA733 PHL/CLT 10:20 arrival 12:20 departure

Gate 5:
AA50/AA109 DFW/LAX 6:55 arrival 10:30 departure
AA78 DFW 11:00 arrival (tow-off)

Gate 6:
AA106/AA101 JFK/JFK 7:40 arrival 9:45 departure
AA104/AA39 JFK/MIA 10:30 arrival 12:50 departure

Gate 7:
AA736/AA731 PHL/CLT 7:45 arrival 10:05 departure
AA732/AA737 CLT/PHL 11:05 arrival 14:30 departure

Gate 8:
AA730/AA729 CLT/PHL 8:00 arrival 10:15 departure
AA39 MIA 12:50 departure

Gate 9:
AA46/AA87 ORD/ORD 9:05 arrival 12:15 departure

Gate 10:
AA194 PHX 9:25 arrival (tow-off)
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SmithAir747
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:41 pm

apodino wrote:
Aisak wrote:
brazilrick wrote:
That being said, I flew out of LHR last year back to the US, and there was no additional screening, just the same checkpoint in T3 that everyone else used, and nothing more at the gate. Has something changed recently?


When I started flying between the US and LHR in the early-mid 2000s, all my US flights (AA and UA) went to T3, before there was a T5. When leaving LHR T3 on a flight back to the US, there were secondary security checks at the gates for the US flights. That changed when I was living in London (2004-2007); then, there were no more secondary security checks at the gates (my flights were still all at T3, except for one BA flight I took out of T1 for LHR-LAX).

Since 2016, I have been making an annual return trip to London to revisit my old uni (King's College London) and my old neighbourhood and other old haunts in London. Terminals at LHR (and gate allocations for US services) have changed. Since I now live in Denver, and usually take the BA DEN-LHR flight, I still use T3 (since the BA DEN flight and other BA O&D US flights arrive and depart from T3, not T5). I have yet to use T5. Once I used the new T2 (for a UA DEN-LHR service last year). I have not had to go through a secondary security screening at all when leaving from LHR on a US-bound flight.

It would be nice to have US preclearance at LHR, but that may or may not happen (more than likely not) as LHR is so big and congested and has so many US bound flights departing from multiple terminals. DUB can handle US preclearance easily (I've done that at DUB before on EI transatlantic flights) as it's smaller and serves much fewer US flights, all from one terminal.

SmithAir747
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made... (Psalm 139:14)
 
Skyguy
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:52 pm

Do BA use T5A for widebodies? I seem to recall only seeing narrow bodies there.
"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
 
SmithAir747
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:27 pm

Skyguy wrote:
Do BA use T5A for widebodies? I seem to recall only seeing narrow bodies there.


T5A is normally used for narrowbodies (with a large number of jetbridges close to each other), and the satellites (B and C) serve widebodies and narrowbodies. There are also remote stands on the T5 property.

SmithAir747
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made... (Psalm 139:14)
 
skipness1E
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:29 pm

Skyguy wrote:
Do BA use T5A for widebodies? I seem to recall only seeing narrow bodies there.

518, 516 and 514 can take B744 but only seen on the likes of Christmas day really although 518 was once common for arrivals.
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:43 pm

As per reply’s in other threads,
Can’t say why I know, but the JFK’s are heading to T5.
Unsure what BA will throw over to T3, but it’s happening.
And sooner than you think.
Current plan is before year end.
 
jamsco99
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:58 pm

Skyguy wrote:
Do BA use T5A for widebodies? I seem to recall only seeing narrow bodies there.


There are a few remote gates that you get bused to from terminal 5a.
I was bussed onto a 787 last week
 
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JakubH
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:59 am

TUGMASTER wrote:
As per reply’s in other threads,
Can’t say why I know, but the JFK’s are heading to T5.
Unsure what BA will throw over to T3, but it’s happening.
And sooner than you think.
Current plan is before year end.

I am one of those benefiting from a same-terminal connection between PRG/VIE/BUD and North America on BA-AA. Moving JFK makes some sense but really hoping that other North American destinations stay in T3 - otherwise, it will be time to change loyalty and use MUC/FRA instead.
Humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less.
C. S. Lewis
 
CHRISBA35X
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:20 am

Are there any hard stand options around T5 to move short haul turns from gates at T5 to remote stands? I wonder if they can free up some space doing that?
 
Lofty
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:20 am

T5A does have 3 wide body stands, BA chooses not to use them as one is ok but the other two you loose 2 narrow body stands.

With any terminal move never say never.
 
skipness1E
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:30 am

So are Menzies planned to handle American in T5, BA or will their own ops still do above wing?
AA’s JFK only needs one on stand at any one time and there’s often an American B777 on the remote 580s or 590s so not far to tow. In fairness T3 has some quiet periods so room for some more BA heavies, wonder what route will get shifted if this happens?
 
chonetsao
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:47 am

skipness1E wrote:
So are Menzies planned to handle American in T5, BA or will their own ops still do above wing?
AA’s JFK only needs one on stand at any one time and there’s often an American B777 on the remote 580s or 590s so not far to tow. In fairness T3 has some quiet periods so room for some more BA heavies, wonder what route will get shifted if this happens?


Well, one of the JFK flight turn around to RDU, and the return RDU flight turn around to JFK. So there is more complexity about it...
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:48 pm

No Menzies in T5.
 
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vhtje
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:08 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
No Menzies in T5.


I don't mean to be pedantic and annoying, but could you please possibly clarify your post? Your brevity and lack of punctuation makes your answer to the posed question
skipness1E wrote:
So are Menzies planned to handle American in T5, BA or will their own ops still do above wing

unclear: I can interpret your reply in both ways.

Do you mean, "No, Menzies in T5" as in "No, it won't be BA handling AA, it will be Menzies doing the handling when AA move in to T5"

Or do you mean, "There will be no Menzies in T5 and BA will handle AA's ops"
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: AA move to T5 in LHR?

Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:17 pm

Apologies...
Menzies will Not be in T5

Possible scenario will be similar to when Menzies towed the BD A32X’s..... they only took it to the 590’s stands , BA then picked up the aircraft from there, and took to T5 gates.

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