Brickell305
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:28 pm

SteelChair wrote:
If AA has a bad sick leave policy, people should find other employment, the economy is booming.

When I see that an activist state like NY or CA is suing a company, I immediately question the motives.

And by that logic, if AA doesn't like the law in NYC, they should move their base. Simple.
 
LU9092
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:37 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
micstatic wrote:
I'm sure their are victims here like anything else. But I have a lot of friends who are airline pilots. I have never met a single working group in my life that abuse sick time more than pilots.


Two of my friends who are airline pilots have told me the same thing. They are still young and aren't yet jaded. So they still have integrity and try to do the right thing.

I wish all the best for airline pilots. But some of them who post here might want to think about what they post. Just last week one was bragging about how much money he was making and even put the figure up. Keep that in mind when the next economic downturn hits and you get furloughed, don't expect any sympathy.


Keeping one's salary a secret only serves the interests of management. What's wrong with posting it somewhere?
 
greenair727
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:49 pm

from the article: "The violations alleged in the lawsuit include filing disciplinary points against ground crew workers for each sick day used, not allowing employees to use the sick leave they had earned, and requiring medical documentation before city law said it was necessary."

Re the last part--requiring medical documentation before city law said it was necessary, I thought cities (and more commonly, states) have no labor jurisdictions over airlines as they fall under interstate commerce rules. So they could address the first two issues above, but can't force an airline to live under its own labor laws.
 
Boof02671
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:55 pm

greenair727 wrote:
from the article: "The violations alleged in the lawsuit include filing disciplinary points against ground crew workers for each sick day used, not allowing employees to use the sick leave they had earned, and requiring medical documentation before city law said it was necessary."

Re the last part--requiring medical documentation before city law said it was necessary, I thought cities (and more commonly, states) have no labor jurisdictions over airlines as they fall under interstate commerce rules. So they could address the first two issues above, but can't force an airline to live under its own labor laws.

Yes they can it’s been tested in court.

Years ago the City of SFO passed a local ordinance that required employers at SFO to offer same sex benefits or they wouldn’t be permitted to fly into SFO.

The city prevailed and many of the airlines offered same sex benefits systemwide.

Also cities that have the living wage of $15 made the airlines boost starting pay to $15, and its legal.
 
Lrockeagle
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:08 pm

AA77W wrote:
Having worked for AA in a non-union position, I have had first-hand experience with their draconian sick leave policy. The disciplinary points system they use for sick days was often the subject of anxiety dreams at night, and those dreams lasted well beyond my tenure at AA. In my view, the sick/absence policy (and the potential punishment that accompanies it) was by far the worst part of working for AA.

I worked at a smaller station and any bumps/bruises/injuries reported resulted in the hurt person being placed on the “safety committee” that was required to meet outside of your normal shift. I reported having my heel run over by air stairs and was told by a “secretary” that if I told the station manager then I would have to come in twice a week outside of my shift, so I didn’t report it.
Lrockeagle
14 years ago

I got $20 says AA takes their 787's with GE powerplants. Just a hunch. Any takers?
 
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spinotter
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:20 pm

AA77W wrote:
Having worked for AA in a non-union position, I have had first-hand experience with their draconian sick leave policy. The disciplinary points system they use for sick days was often the subject of anxiety dreams at night, and those dreams lasted well beyond my tenure at AA. In my view, the sick/absence policy (and the potential punishment that accompanies it) was by far the worst part of working for AA.


You must have taken a lot of sick days then. In my whole working career of 40+ years I never took one day of sick leave. That is more the norm than nightmares over sick days.
 
Boof02671
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:29 pm

spinotter wrote:
AA77W wrote:
Having worked for AA in a non-union position, I have had first-hand experience with their draconian sick leave policy. The disciplinary points system they use for sick days was often the subject of anxiety dreams at night, and those dreams lasted well beyond my tenure at AA. In my view, the sick/absence policy (and the potential punishment that accompanies it) was by far the worst part of working for AA.


You must have taken a lot of sick days then. In my whole working career of 40+ years I never took one day of sick leave. That is more the norm than nightmares over sick days.

AA has implemented a new sick policy, the APFA just had an arbitration over it.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:20 pm

AA just can't seem to get out of the press and not for good reasons.
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:30 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
The Arizona law you cite has clear language with respect to CBA's


And most of the leave laws crafted within the past several years have similar language regarding CBAs. Having said that, after reading the specific NYC statute, it's clear that one omits such language.

The question of whether or not a local or state law can supersede a CBA governing a workgroup that conducts interstate commerce is still being litigated, however.
Last edited by WkndWanderer on Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:34 pm, edited 5 times in total.
 
acjbbj
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:30 pm

Again, are American Airlines becoming the Florida Man of airlines?
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stl07
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 pm

SteelChair wrote:
If AA has a bad sick leave policy, people should find other employment, the economy is booming.

When I see that an activist state like NY or CA is suing a company, I immediately question the motives.

What? States sue companies all the time regardless of a political association or social agenda
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
ryanov
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:03 am

spinotter wrote:
You must have taken a lot of sick days then. In my whole working career of 40+ years I never took one day of sick leave. That is more the norm than nightmares over sick days.

Yeah, I agree, it is the norm: to go to work sick, like you clearly did. The norm is not always what is right.
 
bennett123
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:12 am

Suppose the question is how sick do you need to be to call in sick.
 
Boof02671
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:31 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Suppose the question is how sick do you need to be to call in sick.

There are no requirements on how sick you are to go to work or not in the CBAs or in the NYC law.

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/dca/downloa ... stions.pdf

Q. CAN I DISCIPLINE AN EMPLOYEE WHO MISUSES SICK LEAVE?
A. Yes, but only if an employee uses sick leave for a purpose other than those set forth in the Law.

Q. MY EMPLOYEE TOOK TIME OFF BECAUSE S/HE WAS SICK BUT DOESN’T HAVE A DOCTOR’S NOTE. MAY I DEMAND ONE?
A. You cannot require the employee to provide documentation from a licensed health care provider until s/he uses more than three consecutive workdays as sick leave. If you require documentation from a health care provider as permitted by Law, you may not require the documentation to specify the nature of the employee’s illness or condition. The employee has a minimum of seven days after returning to work to produce documentation.
You can require the employee to give you a signed statement that the absence was for an authorized purpose under the Law. Visit nyc.gov/PaidSickLeave for a model form that you can provide employees.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:38 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Airlines have a problem. Not just AA.

They all have a base in NYC

NYC has passed laws:

-banning sick time punishment

-banning documentation after a handful of sick calls

-banning appearance standards such as hair length or style

If you are a union employee with a CBA, and based in NYC, these sections of your contract are no longer enforceable within NYC limits

Plain and simple, the days of demanding a doctors note after 3 sick calls are over in NYC...and there isnt much your manager can do about it

That is going to create issues bin many industries. I'm not sure the best out.

Airlines are under the railroad act for a reason. Their employees get one contract, everyone is held to the same terms.

I figure this will have the same outcome as the $15 minimum wage, more automation. At least that is what my friends working automation predict.

Lightsaber
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lightsaber
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:41 pm

ryanov wrote:
spinotter wrote:
You must have taken a lot of sick days then. In my whole working career of 40+ years I never took one day of sick leave. That is more the norm than nightmares over sick days.

Yeah, I agree, it is the norm: to go to work sick, like you clearly did. The norm is not always what is right.

Last year I worked with one of those guys who always went into work sick. He infected 16 people directly and another 24 from the people he infected, including myself resulting in a total loss of 60 sick days and he was worthless (or worse). I had to order 8 people to go home, including the individual not to work a Saturday overtime (no sick day record held).

Lightsaber
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cvg2lga
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:07 pm

airtran737 wrote:
micstatic wrote:
I'm sure their are victims here like anything else. But I have a lot of friends who are airline pilots. I have never met a single working group in my life that abuse sick time more than pilots.


I am going to call B.S. on that one. In my three years as an airline pilot I have never called in sick. I have used two commuter clauses because I couldn't get to work, and I have driven sometimes between three airports to get to work. Your blanket statement is patently false.



Rest assured, you are in the wrong here. 7 years crew scheduling experience here, 2 different airlines.
They don't call em' emergencies anymore. They call em' Patronies.
 
AEROFAN
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:21 pm

Sue the hell outta them. There's nothing more annoying that people coming to work sick. What's the point? To get others sick? Work at diminished capacity? Ridiculous!
 
airtran737
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:42 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Also airline employees in NY and CA are paid weekly per State laws even though the CBAs say biweekly.

Yet another example.


When did that happen? I was LGA based less than two years ago and my checks came on the 15th and 30th.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
Boof02671
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:52 pm

Some of LUS employees are paid weekly while their CBA says biweekly.

It doesn’t apply to pilots and FAs.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:03 pm

When I worked at an airline, I often saw pilots bidding their monthly schedule around when they’d call in sick. US Government managers are required to be aware of sick leave abuse and act on it with discipline if necessary. Like consistent sick for four hours on Friday afternoons or Monday after a holiday weekend. I had a friend fired at an airline when they checked his sick call and found to be flying for the military.

People abuse sick leave and NYC’s law only encourages abuse and makes small employers less likely hire or build a business
 
Boof02671
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:14 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
When I worked at an airline, I often saw pilots bidding their monthly schedule around when they’d call in sick. US Government managers are required to be aware of sick leave abuse and act on it with discipline if necessary. Like consistent sick for four hours on Friday afternoons or Monday after a holiday weekend. I had a friend fired at an airline when they checked his sick call and found to be flying for the military.

People abuse sick leave and NYC’s law only encourages abuse and makes small employers less likely hire or build a business

The law doesn’t protect abuse of sick time.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:22 pm

lightsaber wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Airlines have a problem. Not just AA.

They all have a base in NYC

NYC has passed laws:

-banning sick time punishment

-banning documentation after a handful of sick calls

-banning appearance standards such as hair length or style

If you are a union employee with a CBA, and based in NYC, these sections of your contract are no longer enforceable within NYC limits

Plain and simple, the days of demanding a doctors note after 3 sick calls are over in NYC...and there isnt much your manager can do about it

That is going to create issues bin many industries. I'm not sure the best out.

Airlines are under the railroad act for a reason. Their employees get one contract, everyone is held to the same terms.

I figure this will have the same outcome as the $15 minimum wage, more automation. At least that is what my friends working automation predict.

Lightsaber


Even before this employees were held to different standards and rules based on which state they were based in. For years crew in California have been able to utilize a penalty free sick time system that did NOT apply to those outside of California.

As far as automation, maybe. But then what do you do with the seething and growing masses of unemployed? My prediction after automation: more food stamps and guaranteed free healthcare and some sort of basic income in the mail. After all, the robots don't vote...
 
jumbojet
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:31 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
When I worked at an airline, I often saw pilots bidding their monthly schedule around when they’d call in sick. US Government managers are required to be aware of sick leave abuse and act on it with discipline if necessary. Like consistent sick for four hours on Friday afternoons or Monday after a holiday weekend. I had a friend fired at an airline when they checked his sick call and found to be flying for the military.

People abuse sick leave and NYC’s law only encourages abuse and makes small employers less likely hire or build a business


works both ways, People abuse it and other people go into work fearing retribution from their employer, in this case, AA, and they get other people sick.

There is actually a very simple and easy fix to this.
 
Slide
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:36 pm

What's the greater harm, people potentially abusing their sick time, or people afraid to use their sick time because of possible repercussions? Hint, it's the latter, even if you clearly remember that one guy that was always sick on Friday afternoon. Good on NYC for standing up for the workers, and bad on those who want to blame people for wanting to use their sick time without being harassed about it.
 
jumbojet
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:54 pm

with my job, if you want to go sick for one or two days, you need the permission of your immediate supervisor. Thats called administrative sick. With administrative sick, you don't need a doctors note as its anticipated that all you will miss is one or two days of work. The supervisor can deny the administrative sick if they want. If they do, this forces the employee to go regular sick which means they have to go visit their own doctor and the company doctor. Depending on the diagnosis from the two doctors, the employee can be sent back to work or stay out longer (decided by the company doctor on the advise of the employees personal physician's diagnosis of the patient). With regular sick, the employee can miss a lot more than just one or two days. Also, to limit administrative sick requests, you can only request this type of sick leave 4 times in a 12 month period. Anything over and above that and you have to go regular sick. It works like a charm. If you do go admin sick 4 times a year, you are flagged as chronic sick and you are placed on monitoring The employer can send teams to your house to verify your sick and if they determine your not, your in trouble. There's actually a lot more to it but thats it in a nutshell.

It would seem to me, and others, that AA doesnt give its own employees the benefit of the doubt
 
ryanov
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:20 am

I suspect some confirmation bias in these "always Monday/Friday" sick calls, or some other outside influence. I used to get sick pretty often during the Christmas and Thanksgiving. Never heard anyone complain about that pattern, but it was significantly less convenient for me.

Also, the doctor's note thing is asinine (I have that rule where I work, though thankfully not enforced). How many people here have gotten sick and suspect they were contagious, were out for a few days, and would have benefit from a pointless trip to the doctor. Who pays the copay for these? Anyone ever asked a doctor what they think of this practice?
 
airlineaddict
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:16 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
from the article: "The violations alleged in the lawsuit include filing disciplinary points against ground crew workers for each sick day used, not allowing employees to use the sick leave they had earned, and requiring medical documentation before city law said it was necessary."

Re the last part--requiring medical documentation before city law said it was necessary, I thought cities (and more commonly, states) have no labor jurisdictions over airlines as they fall under interstate commerce rules. So they could address the first two issues above, but can't force an airline to live under its own labor laws.

Yes they can it’s been tested in court.

Years ago the City of SFO passed a local ordinance that required employers at SFO to offer same sex benefits or they wouldn’t be permitted to fly into SFO.

The city prevailed and many of the airlines offered same sex benefits systemwide.

Also cities that have the living wage of $15 made the airlines boost starting pay to $15, and its legal.


The technicality at SFO is that the health and wage requirements are embedded in their lease agreement with the airport authority.
 
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767333ER
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:12 pm

If they are “concerned” about the abuse of sick time maybe they need to be looking why employees would want to abuse sick time. But then again they wouldn’t because it’s easier and probably cheaper in the long run to just try to hold out breaking laws and getting sued instead of fixing pay, working conditions, and whatever else might be wrong.
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Boof02671
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:15 pm

airlineaddict wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
from the article: "The violations alleged in the lawsuit include filing disciplinary points against ground crew workers for each sick day used, not allowing employees to use the sick leave they had earned, and requiring medical documentation before city law said it was necessary."

Re the last part--requiring medical documentation before city law said it was necessary, I thought cities (and more commonly, states) have no labor jurisdictions over airlines as they fall under interstate commerce rules. So they could address the first two issues above, but can't force an airline to live under its own labor laws.

Yes they can it’s been tested in court.

Years ago the City of SFO passed a local ordinance that required employers at SFO to offer same sex benefits or they wouldn’t be permitted to fly into SFO.

The city prevailed and many of the airlines offered same sex benefits systemwide.

Also cities that have the living wage of $15 made the airlines boost starting pay to $15, and its legal.


The technicality at SFO is that the health and wage requirements are embedded in their lease agreement with the airport authority.

I know at the time US offered it systemwide
 
NWAESC
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:35 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
And those Delta flight attendants are not covered by the RLA as they don’t work under a CBA.


So you're saying DL workers are covered under the NLRB, then?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:47 pm

NWAESC wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
And those Delta flight attendants are not covered by the RLA as they don’t work under a CBA.


So you're saying DL workers are covered under the NLRB, then?

They aren’t covered by anything, except the Pilots and Dispatchers as the latter are the only two groups unionized.

Only unionized workers in the railroads and airlines fall under the RLA, non-union don’t.

But you do have to follow the rules put out by the NMB to unionize.

The NLRB is not a law, it’s a board that administrates the NLRA, just as the NMB administrates the RLA.
 
DarkKnight5
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:47 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
YYZatcboy wrote:
Aren't airlines governed by federal law in the USA? State and local employment laws don't apply? That's how it is in Canada anyway.


A.net so so far off base as usual.

Cities and states are sovereign governments. They have authority to do whatever they please within their territories as long as it does not conflict with the US constitution.

Airlines are not immune. If they don't want to face these government policies then they cannot do business in these territories. Cities and states can even pass laws that directly target existing CBA's. It was common during the railroad boom era and still possible today.

Quibble: States are sovereign. Cities are granted their power by State law, so they are subservient to the power of the State. Cities are not sovereign.
 
Boof02671
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:57 pm

If there is no state law, the cities have the right to make local ordinances
 
CobaltScar
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:02 pm

Any airports on tribal lands? Wonder how that would work
 
apodino
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:31 pm

I read somewhere that JetBlue is being sued for the same reason. One thing I read that jetBlue did was when JFK based flight attendants would change domiciles to FLL and they had the sick time used, the company would immediately pounce taking advantage of a more lax policy in FL to fire said FAs. I believe one such FA is suing JetBlue over wrongful termination.

I am not going to deny abuse of sick time does happen. But it is very difficult to prove and its a dangerous slope for airlines to travel down. Here is the thing. If Flight Attendants fear they will be fired for calling in sick, they are more likely to work when sick. If paying customers start getting sick because of things they catch from Flight Attendants, that opens up the company to liablity lawsuits which even if they are settled out of court, will cost the company way more in the long run than if dealt with the few abusers that are out there.

To take this a step further, FAR part 117 requires every pilot (Captain or FO) to declare themselves fit for duty before every flight. If they feel pressured to fly because of an environment where they fear calling in sick because of company retaliation, they put their own certificate at risk and not to mention a possible perjury charge by declaring they are fit when they may not be. And it doesn't have to be something that is serious. A female pilot once told me something as simple as menstrual cramps can cause you to not be fit for duty. I don't think this gal ever played that card however.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:48 pm

If they are “concerned” about the abuse of sick time maybe they need to be looking why employees would want to abuse sick time. But then again they wouldn’t because it’s easier and probably cheaper in the long run to just try to hold out breaking laws and getting sued instead of fixing pay, working conditions, and whatever else might be wrong.


I suspect that you're right. My employer is doing the same, claiming that they'll demand doctor's notes whenever we call in sick on Monday or Friday. The real issue is that they pay so poorly relative to other employers that they can't staff subs on those days. So... Instead of raising pay and improving conditions and actually making people want to come in to work as subs, or enticing the rest of us to cover and take extra duties, they're just threatening us, forcing us to come in sick. We then infect everyone else around us, driving up the absenteeism rate. Its a vicious circle which no one except the rank and file seem to perceive. I was out for several Mondays and Fridays due to ortho appointments from on the job injuries (some irony there) and they still harassed me over it. I guess the only piece of good news is that based upon my state's retirement formula, my roughly 150 days of accrued sick leave are worth around $26,000 that the powers that be will have to pay me when I retire. That's almost twice what a sub will cost for each day, and that's before I add in the accrued sick time from another agency in another sick bank. Penny wise and pound foolish? Thinking short term instead of long term? No one ever said that government bureaucrats were smart.

The bottom line is that if you pay decently, treat your employers well and make the workplace welcoming, employers won't have a problem. They also have to accord with state labor laws. Don't like the law? Then either work through the democratic process to change the law, or leave the state. That sounds harsh, but they're really the only options other than violating the law which will get them into hot water in the courts, as we're seeing now with AA. I always think back to Henry Ford and welfare capitalism. Its too bad that companies today don't understand history.
 
travaz
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:01 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
If AA has a bad sick leave policy, people should find other employment, the economy is booming.

When I see that an activist state like NY or CA is suing a company, I immediately question the motives.

And by that logic, if AA doesn't like the law in NYC, they should move their base. Simple.



Or contract ground handling. It is in my opinion laws like this that cause companies go to outsourcing. That way they dont have to deal with it.
 
AEROFAN
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:45 pm

ryanov wrote:
I suspect some confirmation bias in these "always Monday/Friday" sick calls, or some other outside influence. I used to get sick pretty often during the Christmas and Thanksgiving. Never heard anyone complain about that pattern, but it was significantly less convenient for me.

Also, the doctor's note thing is asinine (I have that rule where I work, though thankfully not enforced). How many people here have gotten sick and suspect they were contagious, were out for a few days, and would have benefit from a pointless trip to the doctor. Who pays the copay for these? Anyone ever asked a doctor what they think of this practice?

Which one of you can get a doctor's appointment to see him or her when you are sick? I know I have never been able to. I need at least 3-5 weeks lead time.
 
Boof02671
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Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:58 pm

travaz wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
If AA has a bad sick leave policy, people should find other employment, the economy is booming.

When I see that an activist state like NY or CA is suing a company, I immediately question the motives.

And by that logic, if AA doesn't like the law in NYC, they should move their base. Simple.



Or contract ground handling. It is in my opinion laws like this that cause companies go to outsourcing. That way they dont have to deal with it.

They can’t outsource it and the law applies to the vendors also.
 
travaz
Posts: 853
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:44 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
travaz wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
And by that logic, if AA doesn't like the law in NYC, they should move their base. Simple.



Or contract ground handling. It is in my opinion laws like this that cause companies go to outsourcing. That way they dont have to deal with it.

They can’t outsource it and the law applies to the vendors also.


Why can't they outsource it? I am really just making an observation about onerous regulations passed by Govt. I am not anti worker. I understand the law would apply to the vendor but it would take it out of AA's responsibility.
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:45 pm

travaz wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
travaz wrote:


Or contract ground handling. It is in my opinion laws like this that cause companies go to outsourcing. That way they dont have to deal with it.

They can’t outsource it and the law applies to the vendors also.


Why can't they outsource it? I am really just making an observation about onerous regulations passed by Govt. I am not anti worker. I understand the law would apply to the vendor but it would take it out of AA's responsibility.

Because LGA is a protected station in both the IAM’s and TWU’s CBA
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1153
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:58 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
travaz wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
They can’t outsource it and the law applies to the vendors also.


Why can't they outsource it? I am really just making an observation about onerous regulations passed by Govt. I am not anti worker. I understand the law would apply to the vendor but it would take it out of AA's responsibility.

Because LGA is a protected station in both the IAM’s and TWU’s CBA


Like AMFA protected the NWA mechanics?

And IAM saved all the Eastern jobs?

And UAW protected all those jobs at the big 3 automakers?

How's about railway workers or the maritime industry?

The presence of a CBA doesn't necessarily guarantee the jobs will stay forever.

Rampant sick leave abuse is one way to ensure that management continually looks for other options. Imho the unions have done a poor job policing themselves. And politicians patronizing organized labor (like in this case) won't help in the long run either.
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:05 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
travaz wrote:

Why can't they outsource it? I am really just making an observation about onerous regulations passed by Govt. I am not anti worker. I understand the law would apply to the vendor but it would take it out of AA's responsibility.

Because LGA is a protected station in both the IAM’s and TWU’s CBA


Like AMFA protected the NWA mechanics?

And IAM saved all the Eastern jobs?

And UAW protected all those jobs at the big 3 automakers?

How's about railway workers or the maritime industry?

The presence of a CBA doesn't necessarily guarantee the jobs will stay forever.

Rampant sick leave abuse is one way to ensure that management continually looks for other options. Imho the unions have done a poor job policing themselves. And politicians patronizing organized labor (like in this case) won't help in the long run either.

Apples and oranges, and the IAM didn’t take down EA, that would be Lorenzo.

And AMFA was a strike, no comparison.

Your distractions of red herrings have failed.

Watch these and learn what really happened at EA.

https://youtu.be/MSSPAM3vauw

https://youtu.be/mya5HUDOWX0

My Uncle was an Inspector at EA for 29 years. I walked the picket line with him.

And if you really want to know what happened, watch this movie/documentary, it’s available on Amazon.

http://www.redtailmovie.com/page1/about.html
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1153
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:45 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Because LGA is a protected station in both the IAM’s and TWU’s CBA


Like AMFA protected the NWA mechanics?

And IAM saved all the Eastern jobs?

And UAW protected all those jobs at the big 3 automakers?

How's about railway workers or the maritime industry?

The presence of a CBA doesn't necessarily guarantee the jobs will stay forever.

Rampant sick leave abuse is one way to ensure that management continually looks for other options. Imho the unions have done a poor job policing themselves. And politicians patronizing organized labor (like in this case) won't help in the long run either.

Apples and oranges, and the IAM didn’t take down EA, that would be Lorenzo.

And AMFA was a strike, no comparison.

Your distractions of red herrings have failed.

Watch these and learn what really happened at EA.

https://youtu.be/MSSPAM3vauw

https://youtu.be/mya5HUDOWX0

My Uncle was an Inspector at EA for 29 years. I walked the picket line with him.

And if you really want to know what happened, watch this movie/documentary, it’s available on Amazon.

http://www.redtailmovie.com/page1/about.html


As usual, you missed the point. I guess because you don't want to see it: a CBA does not provide iron clad job security.

And whatever picket line you walked isn't germaine to the argument. Talk about red herrings....pot meet kettle.
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:01 am

SteelChair wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

Like AMFA protected the NWA mechanics?

And IAM saved all the Eastern jobs?

And UAW protected all those jobs at the big 3 automakers?

How's about railway workers or the maritime industry?

The presence of a CBA doesn't necessarily guarantee the jobs will stay forever.

Rampant sick leave abuse is one way to ensure that management continually looks for other options. Imho the unions have done a poor job policing themselves. And politicians patronizing organized labor (like in this case) won't help in the long run either.

Apples and oranges, and the IAM didn’t take down EA, that would be Lorenzo.

And AMFA was a strike, no comparison.

Your distractions of red herrings have failed.

Watch these and learn what really happened at EA.

https://youtu.be/MSSPAM3vauw

https://youtu.be/mya5HUDOWX0

My Uncle was an Inspector at EA for 29 years. I walked the picket line with him.

And if you really want to know what happened, watch this movie/documentary, it’s available on Amazon.

http://www.redtailmovie.com/page1/about.html


As usual, you missed the point. I guess because you don't want to see it: a CBA does not provide iron clad job security.

And whatever picket line you walked isn't germaine to the argument. Talk about red herrings....pot meet kettle.

As did you bringing in things that are irrelevant.

Yes the CBA does provide job security, LGA is a protected station and since they cross utilize, no one can be laid off. It would take a CBA abrogation in Bankruptcy or a force majure occurrence.

Don’t let the facts get in your way.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1153
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:06 am

Boof02671 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Apples and oranges, and the IAM didn’t take down EA, that would be Lorenzo.

And AMFA was a strike, no comparison.

Your distractions of red herrings have failed.

Watch these and learn what really happened at EA.

https://youtu.be/MSSPAM3vauw

https://youtu.be/mya5HUDOWX0

My Uncle was an Inspector at EA for 29 years. I walked the picket line with him.

And if you really want to know what happened, watch this movie/documentary, it’s available on Amazon.

http://www.redtailmovie.com/page1/about.html


As usual, you missed the point. I guess because you don't want to see it: a CBA does not provide iron clad job security.

And whatever picket line you walked isn't germaine to the argument. Talk about red herrings....pot meet kettle.

As did you bringing in things that are irrelevant.

Yes the CBA does provide job security, LGA is a protected station and since they cross utilize, no one can be laid off. It would take a CBA abrogation in Bankruptcy or a force majure occurrence.

Don’t let the facts get in your way.


Facts? Like the actual cases I cited? Anything can happen.....never say never.
 
kiowa
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:13 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
When I worked at an airline, I often saw pilots bidding their monthly schedule around when they’d call in sick. US Government managers are required to be aware of sick leave abuse and act on it with discipline if necessary. Like consistent sick for four hours on Friday afternoons or Monday after a holiday weekend. I had a friend fired at an airline when they checked his sick call and found to be flying for the military.

People abuse sick leave and NYC’s law only encourages abuse and makes small employers less likely hire or build a business


It is a good thing that the US Government managers never get sick-or is it just that they are not held accountable to anyone? Sick leave is used by all labor groups that have it available. Anyone remember Blue Flu?
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15407
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:36 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Apples and oranges, and the IAM didn’t take down EA, that would be Lorenzo.


Funny, I seem to recall Lorenzo buying EA after the IAM forced management's hand into a sale when they AGAIN insisted on increases in pay when other workgroups had taken cuts.

Yeah, tell me more about how the IAM was pure as the wind-driven snow....
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: NYC sues American Airlines over employee sick leave

Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:51 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Apples and oranges, and the IAM didn’t take down EA, that would be Lorenzo.


Funny, I seem to recall Lorenzo buying EA after the IAM forced management's hand into a sale when they AGAIN insisted on increases in pay when other workgroups had taken cuts.

Yeah, tell me more about how the IAM was pure as the wind-driven snow....

Watch the documentary I posted and all the unions went on strike.

Lorenzo was removed by the bankruptcy court and the Federal Government banned him from the airline industry. That says it all to me.

The bankruptcy laws were changed because of what Lorenzo did at CO, Section 1113 and 1114 were added because of him.

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