globalflyer
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:45 pm

Thanks ytib… this is awesome!!!
Landing on every Continent almost on an annual basis!
 
Antarius
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:59 pm

DEN1895 wrote:
. I do not see how hiring more security would prevent an active shooter situation as someone can make it from the curb to the walkway above the security checkpoints in less than a minute, only a better designed security area can help prevent that.


This crazy renovation being the solution to gun violence is like cutting off your leg due to having a hang nail.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI DEN
 
theAviationGeek
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:39 pm

globalflyer wrote:
I live now on what was Runway 35L. I would love to see an overlay map of Stapleton with the airport versus Stapleton of today. It would be so interesting to see what now resides on where the concourses were, etc. Of course only the Control Tower remains, now the Punch Bowl Social Club.


A great tool for looking at new and old aerial images is:

https://www.historicaerials.com/viewer

You can use the slider tool to do comparisons among various other tools such as overlays.

-Ryan
 
Rdh3e
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:51 pm

alasizon wrote:

Concrete delays are a nationwide issue at this point from my understanding., or at least it is a Mountain West regional issue. There is a lack of truck drivers available for both the concrete pouring and the removal of old materials (think dump trucks).

Which means that if airliners knows this then the contractors knew this and ignored it in their bid in order to suppress the total cost in the initial budget.
 
alasizon
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:59 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
alasizon wrote:

Concrete delays are a nationwide issue at this point from my understanding., or at least it is a Mountain West regional issue. There is a lack of truck drivers available for both the concrete pouring and the removal of old materials (think dump trucks).

Which means that if airliners knows this then the contractors knew this and ignored it in their bid in order to suppress the total cost in the initial budget.

I'm only aware of it due to a few recent construction projects that I am a stakeholder in that have been hit with delays during peak building seasons and our schedule was built planning for possible delays (there were days where 12 trucks were ordered and only one or two ended up being available).
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N809FR
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:07 am

Rdh3e wrote:
alasizon wrote:

Concrete delays are a nationwide issue at this point from my understanding., or at least it is a Mountain West regional issue. There is a lack of truck drivers available for both the concrete pouring and the removal of old materials (think dump trucks).

Which means that if airliners knows this then the contractors knew this and ignored it in their bid in order to suppress the total cost in the initial budget.


It’s gotten bad enough in Denver with the demand for concrete that many companies are paying sign on bonuses right now. My company can’t take on more work right now because we just don’t have the drivers for the concrete trucks and we can only get so many aggregate trucks throughout the day due to driver shortages.

Worth noting, if pay in this great state equaled inflation I imagine they would have a much easier time finding people.
 
TWA902fly
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:09 am

aden23 wrote:
I do about 50-60 flights through Denver every year... it has gone from my favorite airport in the US to one of the worst.

I would echo what the others here have said. In addition, the management recently banned Uber from dropping you off at departures, and they now can only drop you off at arrivals which makes little sense.

For pickup, it’s at the same tiny island as shuttles and coach cars and is terribly congested and inefficient, very reminiscent of LGA.

I really wonder who is managing this airport and why they are making such terrible choices in regards to passenger experience.


Perhaps they're trying to get people to use the light rail more?

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
NickLAX
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:20 am

As I migrated from UA to AA years ago I hadn't gone through DIA till earlier this year. Wow - it's damn dated now, lots of band aid fixes on things. Terminal is still OK but floors/walls, furnishings, etc seem like they are in a time warp from the 90s. The construction; well it doesn't seem as if DIA management had someone who understands large projects managing the construction vendor - this seems as if it's a mini BBI in the making, not as devastating, but ZERO oversight of construction planning.
 
SPREE34
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:55 pm

N809FR wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
alasizon wrote:
......Worth noting, if pay in this great state equaled inflation I imagine they would have a much easier time finding people.


That, and Colorado has been falling behind on infrastructure in general for several years now. Their idea of road improvement is to build an "Express Toll" lane, where three more regular lanes should already exist. While doing these projects they could leave/build a right of way for future train services.

Too many idealistic, social engineering types running the state any more vs realistic, actual problem solvers. The DIA mess is but one example. DIA fell behind, and will stay behind for some time to come. The roadways will never catch up.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
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william
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:14 pm

globalflyer wrote:
I live now on what was Runway 35L. I would love to see an overlay map of Stapleton with the airport versus Stapleton of today. It would be so interesting to see what now resides on where the concourses were, etc. Of course only the Control Tower remains, now the Punch Bowl Social Club.


I have taken off on that runway back in the late 80s. The days of United DC8s , DC10s, 737s, and 727s. Fun times. When Stapleton closed, United recently refreshed concourse was still in excellent shape.

Sad to read about delays at DIA. Thats why I constantly bring up why SWA did not want concourse A. It would not necessitate a train ride and its closer to the terminal. SWA should negotiated a massive gate swap.
 
globalflyer
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:50 pm

Off topic, but we indeed have the worst roads I have ever driven on in Colorado. The tire companies are likely raking in millions. Pot hole capital! I have seen the artist renderings but I still cannot picture how the Great Hall will work and the new security?
Landing on every Continent almost on an annual basis!
 
airfrnt
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:37 pm

A few comments. The most notable is that the Main Terminal was designed with the concept that Denver would be dominated by connecting traffic, not O&D traffic (60-40 connecting). In fact, the ratio has been the opposite - 65% O&D, 35% connecting. Since day one, the terminal has been undersized for the amount of traffic it has handled. They got away with this because the terminal was overbuilt for it's time - but also because a lot more of the floor space was re-dedicated to security then was planned, while the amount of footprint that the carriers need went down with mobile checkin. That said, they are handling twice the traffic then the original plan called for. The original plan also basically planned for the main terminal to double in size when it reached this capacity, but they are not doing that - renovating the main terminal rather than building out a second terminal next to the first.

Ferrovial is really screwing up here. This is their first contract in the US, and their immediate response once a problem occurred was to jack the cost of the project up way past a reasonable number, and to ignore minority hiring practices. Ferrovial may have badly underestimated the cost of building out a airport when they themselves where not operating it (as most Airports in the US are not privately owned), but if this is going to be how they approach it, I doubt they will ever see another contract in the US like this. Minority hiring matters to politically vulnerable city councilers, and two of this projects backers where kicked out of the city council on the last election.

Finally, everyone is saying now that it's a great thing that Denver invested in a airport, when everyone told them it was a stupid idea, and just to stick with Stapleton. Now everyone is telling them, at a time with low interest rates and high airline traffic, that it's bad to invest in refurbishing and repairing the main terminal. I think the logic still stands. DEN is a asset, but you have to invest it in. The Airside is getting a expansion as well.
 
alasizon
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:00 pm

NickLAX wrote:
As I migrated from UA to AA years ago I hadn't gone through DIA till earlier this year. Wow - it's damn dated now, lots of band aid fixes on things. Terminal is still OK but floors/walls, furnishings, etc seem like they are in a time warp from the 90s. The construction; well it doesn't seem as if DIA management had someone who understands large projects managing the construction vendor - this seems as if it's a mini BBI in the making, not as devastating, but ZERO oversight of construction planning.


Unfortunately between costs and time it takes to complete construction projects currently, pretty much every airport is going to start having this problem. We simply can't build fast enough at major hubs to keep up without impacting operations. My local airport is wrapping up its eighteen month project of redoing the ALP but even then, its already behind what is needed today. Somewhere in the 5-7 year range it catches up with where I estimate we will be but just about every major airport has either a landside or airside space/usage issue (or both).
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mcg
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:46 pm

globalflyer wrote:
Off topic, but we indeed have the worst roads I have ever driven on in Colorado. The tire companies are likely raking in millions. Pot hole capital! I have seen the artist renderings but I still cannot picture how the Great Hall will work and the new security?


You've never been to Idaho
 
mcg
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:49 pm

airfrnt wrote:
A few comments. The most notable is that the Main Terminal was designed with the concept that Denver would be dominated by connecting traffic, not O&D traffic (60-40 connecting). In fact, the ratio has been the opposite - 65% O&D, 35% connecting. Since day one, the terminal has been undersized for the amount of traffic it has handled. They got away with this because the terminal was overbuilt for it's time - but also because a lot more of the floor space was re-dedicated to security then was planned, while the amount of footprint that the carriers need went down with mobile checkin. That said, they are handling twice the traffic then the original plan called for. The original plan also basically planned for the main terminal to double in size when it reached this capacity, but they are not doing that - renovating the main terminal rather than building out a second terminal next to the first.

Ferrovial is really screwing up here. This is their first contract in the US, and their immediate response once a problem occurred was to jack the cost of the project up way past a reasonable number, and to ignore minority hiring practices. Ferrovial may have badly underestimated the cost of building out a airport when they themselves where not operating it (as most Airports in the US are not privately owned), but if this is going to be how they approach it, I doubt they will ever see another contract in the US like this. Minority hiring matters to politically vulnerable city councilers, and two of this projects backers where kicked out of the city council on the last election.

Finally, everyone is saying now that it's a great thing that Denver invested in a airport, when everyone told them it was a stupid idea, and just to stick with Stapleton. Now everyone is telling them, at a time with low interest rates and high airline traffic, that it's bad to invest in refurbishing and repairing the main terminal. I think the logic still stands. DEN is a asset, but you have to invest it in. The Airside is getting a expansion as well.


Exactly, DIA needs to be changed to reflect the circumstances of 2020, rather than 1990. It seems to Ferrovial is not doing a great job, which is their issue, but somebody picked Ferrovial and they are equally responsible. For what it's worth arrived at DIA today and west side baggage claim seemed much better than a month or so ago. The real problem is the number of passengers is starting to exceed the reasonable capacity of the facility, thus it's time for renovation.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:54 pm

Are the existing portions of the concourses getting a renovation when they are expanded?
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:09 am

After learning more about Rocky Mountain Arsenal, i believe the city shouldve used that land for DIA and that wouldve saved them construction on the runways that jetted in to RMA as well as not having to worry so much about water contamination as a result of RMA.
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Frontier14
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:09 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
After learning more about Rocky Mountain Arsenal, i believe the city shouldve used that land for DIA and that wouldve saved them construction on the runways that jetted in to RMA as well as not having to worry so much about water contamination as a result of RMA.


The two north south runways at Stapleton were too close together for bad weather ops. The then Denver Mayor Pena sold the area a bill of goods that the new DIA would be an all weather airport with few closures. Well guess what, every time a thunderstorm comes near the airport it either goes into irregular ops or closes. The politicians tell us to smell the roses and open our pocketbooks - collectively we are so stupid.

Frontier 14
 
seat38a
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:39 pm

Sounds like things are going better at LaGuardia than at DIA. I mean at LaGuardia they are building brand new terminals all the while continuing to run the airport.
 
airfrnt
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:46 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
Are the existing portions of the concourses getting a renovation when they are expanded?


Yes, there is a planned refurbishment of a lot of the common spaces and bathrooms.
 
SteelChair
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:51 pm

Someone ince said the definition of an airport is "continuous construction project."

Denver has a great chance to have an absolutely outstanding airport......but it sounds like they are messing it up. Shame that social engineers instead of construction engineers drive many of the projects now. They should go visit Daxing to see how it's done.
 
airfrnt
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:56 pm

Frontier14 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
After learning more about Rocky Mountain Arsenal, i believe the city shouldve used that land for DIA and that wouldve saved them construction on the runways that jetted in to RMA as well as not having to worry so much about water contamination as a result of RMA.


The two north south runways at Stapleton were too close together for bad weather ops. The then Denver Mayor Pena sold the area a bill of goods that the new DIA would be an all weather airport with few closures. Well guess what, every time a thunderstorm comes near the airport it either goes into irregular ops or closes. The politicians tell us to smell the roses and open our pocketbooks - collectively we are so stupid.

Frontier 14


I think your anger is somewhat non-sensible. The old Stapleton was by far the worst major hub in the United States for delays. The FAA was constantly highlighting the problem that any weather ever would take - not just thunderstorms but any amount of snow, or fog or wind would routinely disrupt the flight operations nationwide of UA, CO, and the old F9 (which was purchased by PeopleExpress). A sneeze and you would be down to single runway usage. DEN is a massive improvement on top of that. The closure rate of the airport is pretty decent, and is not even in the top twenty worldwide for flight delays, despite being 7th worldwide for airplane movements.

Building at RMA was never really an option. The cleanup would have had to occur before the airport was built, and would not have addressed gate contention or runway layouts.

DEN has been a phenomenal investment for the city.....
 
Caspian27
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:02 pm

airfrnt wrote:
Frontier14 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
After learning more about Rocky Mountain Arsenal, i believe the city shouldve used that land for DIA and that wouldve saved them construction on the runways that jetted in to RMA as well as not having to worry so much about water contamination as a result of RMA.


The two north south runways at Stapleton were too close together for bad weather ops. The then Denver Mayor Pena sold the area a bill of goods that the new DIA would be an all weather airport with few closures. Well guess what, every time a thunderstorm comes near the airport it either goes into irregular ops or closes. The politicians tell us to smell the roses and open our pocketbooks - collectively we are so stupid.

Frontier 14


I think your anger is somewhat non-sensible. The old Stapleton was by far the worst major hub in the United States for delays. The FAA was constantly highlighting the problem that any weather ever would take - not just thunderstorms but any amount of snow, or fog or wind would routinely disrupt the flight operations nationwide of UA, CO, and the old F9 (which was purchased by PeopleExpress). A sneeze and you would be down to single runway usage. DEN is a massive improvement on top of that. The closure rate of the airport is pretty decent, and is not even in the top twenty worldwide for flight delays, despite being 7th worldwide for airplane movements.

Building at RMA was never really an option. The cleanup would have had to occur before the airport was built, and would not have addressed gate contention or runway layouts.

DEN has been a phenomenal investment for the city.....


Not important to your point, but the IATA code for the old Frontier was FL not F9. :-)
Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:49 pm

Denver has become such a miserable place to connect or originate. SLC is a breeze and about to get even better.
 
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intotheair
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:33 pm

9NEWS is reporting that the city is officially cancelling the contract. Good on the city to pull the plug before it goes on any longer.

https://www.9news.com/article/money/bus ... 49aaee7af1
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airfrnt
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:58 pm

Good riddance. Ferrovial was clearly in over their head here, and didn't have a clue how to manage a process when they were working with a airport owned by the city, rather then one they themselves managed. The news that the concrete was, in fact, strong enough for the construction work, but that Ferrovial was still insisting on a two year delay is unnacceptable. Better to find this out 6 months in, rather then have a repeat of the baggage debacle when the airport first opened, or the current situation at Berlin Brandenburg. It won't be popular, but this is exactly what to do when a engineering project breaks down early due to political an logistical constructs.
 
ScottB
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:17 pm

airfrnt wrote:
Now everyone is telling them, at a time with low interest rates and high airline traffic, that it's bad to invest in refurbishing and repairing the main terminal. I think the logic still stands. DEN is a asset, but you have to invest it in. The Airside is getting a expansion as well.


I don't think the criticism is about the City investing money in renovating the Jeppesen terminal; rather, it is that the end result, putting the Great Hall behind security, makes little sense. Connecting passengers aren't going to take overcrowded trains to the main terminal to shop or eat. The fact that the company running the project seems to be completely botching it is just the icing on the cake.

intotheair wrote:
9NEWS is reporting that the city is officially cancelling the contract. Good on the city to pull the plug before it goes on any longer.


Cue lawsuit in 3-2-1...
 
airfrnt
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:21 pm

ScottB wrote:
Cue lawsuit in 3-2-1...


The city has a pretty ironclad termination for convience clause. I think they've made the decision to forego a long and expensive lawsuit and simply pay Ferrovial off, knowing that Ferrovial is very unlikely to get any future work in the United States on Airports given how this deal worked out. The lawsuit is likely to cost more then it's worth.
 
 
Dieuwer
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:25 pm

intotheair wrote:
9NEWS is reporting that the city is officially cancelling the contract. Good on the city to pull the plug before it goes on any longer.

https://www.9news.com/article/money/bus ... 49aaee7af1


Good riddance. I never seen such an airport chaos before. Especially the main hall is a disaster.
 
87GROUNDED
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:32 pm

I fly in and out of Denver every week and am completely disgusted by the entire cluster foxtrot. I've got TSA-Pre as well as Clear and have found Clear much easier and friendly to deal with. Post-security the entire airport is an embarrassment. Escalators and moving walkways are always broken, the bathrooms smell like old p*ss and are impossible to navigate during busy times, carpets are dirty and worn, gate areas are dated and the seats need to be replaced, and the entire ambiance is dirty and old.

Kim Day has done such a poor job managing the operational side of the business and there is no end in sight for the resolution of this boondoggle. The last thing I want to do is show up to the airport and sit around the great hall waiting for my flight. The dining and shopping are not important to the O&D traveler. What is important is easy security, wide roads to and from the airport, and a clean and modern concourse(s) where I catch my flight.

I'm almost tempted to drive 45 minutes to COS for my flights as it's much more modern and easy to get in and out of.

DEN needs to figure things out and in a hurry. I'm tired of the messes and bureaucracy ruining what was once a good travel experience. #firekimday
On your deathbed you'll receive total consiousness- so I've got that going for me.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:27 pm

Wow what a mess. The airlines didn’t want this project at all. The only people who did were Kim Day and company.

That money should have gone to Concourse remodels to address the limited food options and overcrowded and disgusting restrooms.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
mil76
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:45 pm

Flew back on Sunday and couldn't believe how much worse the terminal was than when I last flew just a few weeks ago. The dirty marble floors now have big divots. The bathrooms get more disgusting by the day. They have made navigating the main terminal completely miserable so now they decide to pull the plug on the deal. Now we get to deal with mid-demolition eyesores and fake walls everywhere for months or years to come as they try to figure out who is going to do the work going forward. And to top it off we get to shell out another $200 million just to make Ferrovial go away.

The only thing working better is the Uber/Lyft migration off the departures level seems to be complete so now it's much easier to get picked up by someone on the departures level since the arrivals level is usually gridlocked. Then you get to drive past the non-functional LED atrocity in the middle of Pena and be reminded of even more $$$ mismanaged away.

DEN is an embarrassment.
 
airfrnt
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:29 pm

87GROUNDED wrote:
I fly in and out of Denver every week and am completely disgusted by the entire cluster foxtrot. I've got TSA-Pre as well as Clear and have found Clear much easier and friendly to deal with. Post-security the entire airport is an embarrassment. Escalators and moving walkways are always broken, the bathrooms smell like old p*ss and are impossible to navigate during busy times, carpets are dirty and worn, gate areas are dated and the seats need to be replaced, and the entire ambiance is dirty and old.

Kim Day has done such a poor job managing the operational side of the business and there is no end in sight for the resolution of this boondoggle. The last thing I want to do is show up to the airport and sit around the great hall waiting for my flight. The dining and shopping are not important to the O&D traveler. What is important is easy security, wide roads to and from the airport, and a clean and modern concourse(s) where I catch my flight.

I'm almost tempted to drive 45 minutes to COS for my flights as it's much more modern and easy to get in and out of.

DEN needs to figure things out and in a hurry. I'm tired of the messes and bureaucracy ruining what was once a good travel experience. #firekimday


You do realize that this is exactly what they are trying to fix with not only the great hall overhaul, (which is taking 3x the amount of traffic it was designed for), but also the concourse refurbishments? The dining and shopping generate the revenue that helps pay for the operations of the airport.
 
airfrnt
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:33 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Wow what a mess. The airlines didn’t want this project at all. The only people who did were Kim Day and company.

That money should have gone to Concourse remodels to address the limited food options and overcrowded and disgusting restrooms.


This is happening as well. There are new contracts for the "hubs" of each of the concourses, and they are refurbishing all of the concourses slowly as they do the expansion.

The main hall was was a attempt to deal with a ton of other issues - including horrible safety problems (both in terms of keeping a sterile zone as well as active shooter situations), horrible baggage system problems (never really fixed from the original system debacle), horrible escalator problems, and a complete wiff by those who came up with the airport when they tried to model how much of the traffic would be O&D, versus how much of the traffic would be connecting.
 
joeblow10
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Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:35 pm

airfrnt wrote:
87GROUNDED wrote:
I fly in and out of Denver every week and am completely disgusted by the entire cluster foxtrot. I've got TSA-Pre as well as Clear and have found Clear much easier and friendly to deal with. Post-security the entire airport is an embarrassment. Escalators and moving walkways are always broken, the bathrooms smell like old p*ss and are impossible to navigate during busy times, carpets are dirty and worn, gate areas are dated and the seats need to be replaced, and the entire ambiance is dirty and old.

Kim Day has done such a poor job managing the operational side of the business and there is no end in sight for the resolution of this boondoggle. The last thing I want to do is show up to the airport and sit around the great hall waiting for my flight. The dining and shopping are not important to the O&D traveler. What is important is easy security, wide roads to and from the airport, and a clean and modern concourse(s) where I catch my flight.

I'm almost tempted to drive 45 minutes to COS for my flights as it's much more modern and easy to get in and out of.

DEN needs to figure things out and in a hurry. I'm tired of the messes and bureaucracy ruining what was once a good travel experience. #firekimday


You do realize that this is exactly what they are trying to fix with not only the great hall overhaul, (which is taking 3x the amount of traffic it was designed for), but also the concourse refurbishments? The dining and shopping generate the revenue that helps pay for the operations of the airport.


Yes but nobody shops in the great hall... that’s the point everybody has been raising since day one. Sure, some local origin traffic will stop off at the shops after clearing security - but I can almost guarantee a far larger portion will want to head to their gate and then shop around those areas.

Not to mention- no connecting passenger in their right mind is going to go back to the great hall and shop rather than just staying out on the concourses.

Oh - and I can’t imagine security is going to get any better moving to the checkpoint at multiple entrances model - instead, depending on who’s flight is leaving when, one checkpoint is going to be far more crowded than the others at any time...

Totally a necessary project ...
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 252
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:41 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
airfrnt wrote:
87GROUNDED wrote:
I fly in and out of Denver every week and am completely disgusted by the entire cluster foxtrot. I've got TSA-Pre as well as Clear and have found Clear much easier and friendly to deal with. Post-security the entire airport is an embarrassment. Escalators and moving walkways are always broken, the bathrooms smell like old p*ss and are impossible to navigate during busy times, carpets are dirty and worn, gate areas are dated and the seats need to be replaced, and the entire ambiance is dirty and old.

Kim Day has done such a poor job managing the operational side of the business and there is no end in sight for the resolution of this boondoggle. The last thing I want to do is show up to the airport and sit around the great hall waiting for my flight. The dining and shopping are not important to the O&D traveler. What is important is easy security, wide roads to and from the airport, and a clean and modern concourse(s) where I catch my flight.

I'm almost tempted to drive 45 minutes to COS for my flights as it's much more modern and easy to get in and out of.

DEN needs to figure things out and in a hurry. I'm tired of the messes and bureaucracy ruining what was once a good travel experience. #firekimday


You do realize that this is exactly what they are trying to fix with not only the great hall overhaul, (which is taking 3x the amount of traffic it was designed for), but also the concourse refurbishments? The dining and shopping generate the revenue that helps pay for the operations of the airport.


Yes but nobody shops in the great hall... that’s the point everybody has been raising since day one. Sure, some local origin traffic will stop off at the shops after clearing security - but I can almost guarantee a far larger portion will want to head to their gate and then shop around those areas.

Not to mention- no connecting passenger in their right mind is going to go back to the great hall and shop rather than just staying out on the concourses.

Oh - and I can’t imagine security is going to get any better moving to the checkpoint at multiple entrances model - instead, depending on who’s flight is leaving when, one checkpoint is going to be far more crowded than the others at any time...

Totally a necessary project ...


I agree they should have focused more on the concourses, but what should’ve been done with the Great Hall instead of what’s being done?
 
peak86
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:11 am

Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:19 am

BNAMealer wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
airfrnt wrote:

You do realize that this is exactly what they are trying to fix with not only the great hall overhaul, (which is taking 3x the amount of traffic it was designed for), but also the concourse refurbishments? The dining and shopping generate the revenue that helps pay for the operations of the airport.


Yes but nobody shops in the great hall... that’s the point everybody has been raising since day one. Sure, some local origin traffic will stop off at the shops after clearing security - but I can almost guarantee a far larger portion will want to head to their gate and then shop around those areas.

Not to mention- no connecting passenger in their right mind is going to go back to the great hall and shop rather than just staying out on the concourses.

Oh - and I can’t imagine security is going to get any better moving to the checkpoint at multiple entrances model - instead, depending on who’s flight is leaving when, one checkpoint is going to be far more crowded than the others at any time...

Totally a necessary project ...


I agree they should have focused more on the concourses, but what should’ve been done with the Great Hall instead of what’s being done?


Honestly - in my opinion? Nothing - the hall never was the issue, it functioned fine. If anything - adding additional security lanes could have been done by expanding checkpoints further to each side and getting rid of the current walking corridors and having pax walk around the bag claim areas (which is basically already being done in the current project setup)

The airport claimed a main driver behind this were long security lines and making the security lines themselves more secure - this new design might improve the latter, but if somebody wants to inflict harm - it doesn't really matter what the design is. And the long security lines? - more the fact that the TSA can't keep them staffed. I hardly ever see every lane open when passing thru - even at peak times.
 
yow2den
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:59 am

Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:36 am

DEN has always had an issue with space usage (terminal west check in :roll: ). Even before construction began though the congestion at each security checkpoint was horrible. That space was never designed to handle the amount of passengers it does so IMO the question of the project's validity has been answered. Yes I agree that the concourses need their own TLC but that will come in time.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1725
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:51 am

airfrnt wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Wow what a mess. The airlines didn’t want this project at all. The only people who did were Kim Day and company.

That money should have gone to Concourse remodels to address the limited food options and overcrowded and disgusting restrooms.


This is happening as well. There are new contracts for the "hubs" of each of the concourses, and they are refurbishing all of the concourses slowly as they do the expansion.

The main hall was was a attempt to deal with a ton of other issues - including horrible safety problems (both in terms of keeping a sterile zone as well as active shooter situations), horrible baggage system problems (never really fixed from the original system debacle), horrible escalator problems, and a complete wiff by those who came up with the airport when they tried to model how much of the traffic would be O&D, versus how much of the traffic would be connecting.


The argument isn't that work needed to be done at DIA or not. It is that they picked the single dumbest and least practical project. This ambitious great hall that no one wanted reeks of the changes to BER to add the shopping level.

The irony is, despite all the negatives listed above, all they did was make it much, much worse.
Last edited by Antarius on Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI DEN
 
Antarius
Posts: 1725
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:53 am

BNAMealer wrote:
I agree they should have focused more on the concourses, but what should’ve been done with the Great Hall instead of what’s being done?


Staff security better. DEN has more space for security than several other major hubs (try Terminal C at DFW or LGA, for example) and yet half the lanes are closed most of the time.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI DEN
 
mcg
Posts: 975
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:57 am

I think there is a fair amount of over reaction here. Security capacity is the same today as it was 1, 2, 5, or 10 years ago, it's constrained by TSA staffing, not the physical location. Overcrowded bathrooms, worn floors, lack of food options on the concourses; not a result of the Great Hall project and being addressed by the concourse projects. The primary impact of the Great Hall project is to congest the baggage claim area and make it hard to walk from north to south on the baggage claim level. Not good, but not the apocalypse put forth here. My experience this summer is that many airports are struggling with summer crowds.

Don't misunderstand, the project is seriously off course and needs to be fixed. I'd do 4 things:

1. Fire Kim Day, sorry but someone has to be accountable for choosing the contractor;
2. Full steam ahead on the concourse projects, this is a really telling need;
3. Hire a contractor to stabilize the Great Hall project (simply tie things down until the project can be restarted);
4. Stop and figure out what really needs to be done in the Great Hall, the project as currently configured is stupid.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 2993
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:03 am

the most ridiculous thing is the airport states the original budgeted amount is still going to be the number to complete everything. This will end up well over a billion dollars.
 
mkorpal333
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:30 am

Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:42 pm

CALMSP wrote:
the most ridiculous thing is the airport states the original budgeted amount is still going to be the number to complete everything. This will end up well over a billion dollars.


I'm thinking the scope of the project is going to be reduced, rather than the budget increasing.
 
User avatar
Frontier14
Posts: 613
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:14 am

Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:28 pm

I am not a fan of the current airport director, Kim Day. As a number of posters have mentioned, she and her staff have not focused on the concourse needs and updates until recently. These upgrades are way over due.

Maybe the fiasco of the Great Hall project will ultimately be her undoing, we will see. But, I will give her credit for pulling the plug early with the European contractor she lobbied for and hired. Unfortunately, the traveling public will pay for the many change orders, cost overruns and law suits that are sure to follow.

Frontier 14
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 1939
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:05 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
airfrnt wrote:

You do realize that this is exactly what they are trying to fix with not only the great hall overhaul, (which is taking 3x the amount of traffic it was designed for), but also the concourse refurbishments? The dining and shopping generate the revenue that helps pay for the operations of the airport.


Yes but nobody shops in the great hall... that’s the point everybody has been raising since day one. Sure, some local origin traffic will stop off at the shops after clearing security - but I can almost guarantee a far larger portion will want to head to their gate and then shop around those areas.

Not to mention- no connecting passenger in their right mind is going to go back to the great hall and shop rather than just staying out on the concourses.

Oh - and I can’t imagine security is going to get any better moving to the checkpoint at multiple entrances model - instead, depending on who’s flight is leaving when, one checkpoint is going to be far more crowded than the others at any time...

Totally a necessary project ...


I agree they should have focused more on the concourses, but what should’ve been done with the Great Hall instead of what’s being done?


As stated above, DEN primarily needs better food options at the concourses, more gates (so again, at the concourses), more subway cars/more frequent trains, more staffing at security (TSA staffing) and a solution to the "active shooter" security concern.

It's up to the TSA to staff security. The Great Hall Project has proceeded with NO guarantee from the TSA that the staffing will be increased no matter if or how security is designed.

The active shooter concern could have been addressed by walling off or masking the security lines and portals; there are several ways to do this. Another concern - voiced directly by Kim Day in a meeting at CIty Hall - was that passengers worry about the time they'll spend in the lines at security the instant they see the que; this too could have been addressed by simply masking the lines.

However, Kim Day, et al, were determined to hire Ferrovial and that somehow, DEN would become like Heathrow, because Ferrovial manages the terminals at LHR. This fiasco lays directly at Kim Day's feet - she would absolutely not listen to anything beyond or different from the foolish project they pursued.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2149
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:17 pm

On the other hand, just today Southwest is looking to increase by another 100 flights a day. From the Denver Post today:

While Denver International Airport officials were addressing the fallout of firing the contractor tasked with renovating the airport’s main terminal building Tuesday, Southwest Airlines executives were quietly checking out Denver as part of a company retreat.

The get-together, which brought members of the Dallas-based airline’s sales, marketing, network planning and other commercial departments to town, is an annual event, according to Southwest Chief Revenue Officer Andrew Watterson. The team picks a market to visit where the airline is “contemplating an investment.” In 2018, the retreat was held in Hawaii before the airline launched service there earlier this year. The year before, it was San Jose as Southwest considered ways to expand flights to Silicon Valley.

“So pretty good company to be in,” Watterson said.

https://www.denverpost.com/2019/08/14/s ... watterson/

On the general criticism above:

  • It's clear that Ferrovial was not up to snuff on this contract. Lighting the terminal on fire was a good way to prove that quickly. That said, public-private-partnerships have been all the rage nationwide, with Denver City council being one of the biggest backers, with the recent light and medium rail projects also structured as P3s.
  • Interestingly enough, I do wonder at the timing of this, given that the biggest P3 backers in the city council were just booted out of office, and the new city council is much less likely to be pro-P3, and much more old-school how have you greased the skids with my union today?
  • Something that is not getting a lot of attention, but apparently was a huge factor was that several of the key members of the partnership were being sidelined by Ferrovial, in particular Saunders Construction
  • The airport was not in favor of being more like LHR, and specifically wrote contractual language too avoid that.
  • The minority hiring clauses and undue impact to the traveler clauses of the contract give DEN room to go after Ferrovial with a termination for cause, but that actually starts to get into affirmative action territory. Not surprising that they don't want that hanging over their head _and_ it would still delay the project as long as the lawsuit lasts, which would be years. I doubt there will be any lawsuits with much of a shot here.
  • They are refurbishing the concourses... and the amount of demand for new gates is very very high.
  • It would undoubtably be better not to have gone down the P3 route but the criticism that the main hall didn't need to refurbishment is bunk. The Stephenson and Dempsey book has the capacity planning for the main terminal in their documents, and the airport is well above twice the point at which the build out of the extension of the main terminal was supposed to start out.
  • The airport moving to an Amsterdam security model with many more smaller lanes that they can route individual customers to make sense. The current system was broken. It needed a massive change one way or another. It was too easy to drop something over the side, too easy to throw a bomb into a crowded area, too easy for a active shooter situation. Masking the lines with more temporary structures wouldn't have changed that.



I'll note that one major Denver media outlet disables comments on any airport news, just because the (usually gender-based) attacks on Kim Day.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 252
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:05 pm

airfrnt wrote:
On the other hand, just today Southwest is looking to increase by another 100 flights a day. From the Denver Post today:

While Denver International Airport officials were addressing the fallout of firing the contractor tasked with renovating the airport’s main terminal building Tuesday, Southwest Airlines executives were quietly checking out Denver as part of a company retreat.

The get-together, which brought members of the Dallas-based airline’s sales, marketing, network planning and other commercial departments to town, is an annual event, according to Southwest Chief Revenue Officer Andrew Watterson. The team picks a market to visit where the airline is “contemplating an investment.” In 2018, the retreat was held in Hawaii before the airline launched service there earlier this year. The year before, it was San Jose as Southwest considered ways to expand flights to Silicon Valley.

“So pretty good company to be in,” Watterson said.

https://www.denverpost.com/2019/08/14/s ... watterson/

On the general criticism above:

  • It's clear that Ferrovial was not up to snuff on this contract. Lighting the terminal on fire was a good way to prove that quickly. That said, public-private-partnerships have been all the rage nationwide, with Denver City council being one of the biggest backers, with the recent light and medium rail projects also structured as P3s.
  • Interestingly enough, I do wonder at the timing of this, given that the biggest P3 backers in the city council were just booted out of office, and the new city council is much less likely to be pro-P3, and much more old-school how have you greased the skids with my union today?
  • Something that is not getting a lot of attention, but apparently was a huge factor was that several of the key members of the partnership were being sidelined by Ferrovial, in particular Saunders Construction
  • The airport was not in favor of being more like LHR, and specifically wrote contractual language too avoid that.
  • The minority hiring clauses and undue impact to the traveler clauses of the contract give DEN room to go after Ferrovial with a termination for cause, but that actually starts to get into affirmative action territory. Not surprising that they don't want that hanging over their head _and_ it would still delay the project as long as the lawsuit lasts, which would be years. I doubt there will be any lawsuits with much of a shot here.
  • They are refurbishing the concourses... and the amount of demand for new gates is very very high.
  • It would undoubtably be better not to have gone down the P3 route but the criticism that the main hall didn't need to refurbishment is bunk. The Stephenson and Dempsey book has the capacity planning for the main terminal in their documents, and the airport is well above twice the point at which the build out of the extension of the main terminal was supposed to start out.
  • The airport moving to an Amsterdam security model with many more smaller lanes that they can route individual customers to make sense. The current system was broken. It needed a massive change one way or another. It was too easy to drop something over the side, too easy to throw a bomb into a crowded area, too easy for a active shooter situation. Masking the lines with more temporary structures wouldn't have changed that.



I'll note that one major Denver media outlet disables comments on any airport news, just because the (usually gender-based) attacks on Kim Day.


So DEN would be the first WN station to reach 300 flights?

Agree Kim Day needs to go, the priorities are backwards here.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3535
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:45 am

airfrnt wrote:
[*] It would undoubtably be better not to have gone down the P3 route but the criticism that the main hall didn't need to refurbishment is bunk. The Stephenson and Dempsey book has the capacity planning for the main terminal in their documents, and the airport is well above twice the point at which the build out of the extension of the main terminal was supposed to start out.

You guys keep saying that, but if those old capacity numbers actually meant anything then the airport simply wouldn't have been able to support the current traffic.... And yet it does. Those old capacity numbers are meaningless garbage.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1725
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: City of Denver threatens to pull Ferrovial-led contract to redevelop DEN terminal

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:50 am

FlyHossD wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:

Yes but nobody shops in the great hall... that’s the point everybody has been raising since day one. Sure, some local origin traffic will stop off at the shops after clearing security - but I can almost guarantee a far larger portion will want to head to their gate and then shop around those areas.

Not to mention- no connecting passenger in their right mind is going to go back to the great hall and shop rather than just staying out on the concourses.

Oh - and I can’t imagine security is going to get any better moving to the checkpoint at multiple entrances model - instead, depending on who’s flight is leaving when, one checkpoint is going to be far more crowded than the others at any time...

Totally a necessary project ...


I agree they should have focused more on the concourses, but what should’ve been done with the Great Hall instead of what’s being done?


As stated above, DEN primarily needs better food options at the concourses, more gates (so again, at the concourses), more subway cars/more frequent trains, more staffing at security (TSA staffing) and a solution to the "active shooter" security concern.

It's up to the TSA to staff security. The Great Hall Project has proceeded with NO guarantee from the TSA that the staffing will be increased no matter if or how security is designed.

The active shooter concern could have been addressed by walling off or masking the security lines and portals; there are several ways to do this. Another concern - voiced directly by Kim Day in a meeting at CIty Hall - was that passengers worry about the time they'll spend in the lines at security the instant they see the que; this too could have been addressed by simply masking the lines.

However, Kim Day, et al, were determined to hire Ferrovial and that somehow, DEN would become like Heathrow, because Ferrovial manages the terminals at LHR. This fiasco lays directly at Kim Day's feet - she would absolutely not listen to anything beyond or different from the foolish project they pursued.


This active shooter thing is ridiculous. Its akin to the FAA and airlines saying we no longer care about maintenance of brakes or thrust reverses as we will just use EMAS to stop.

It's the single stupidest way to try to solve the problem- not solve the problem at all.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI DEN

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