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YYCFlier
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:42 pm

Re: The WestJet Thread

Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:06 am

BML87 wrote:
Why don't they just remove them from their schedules all together?


Not a chance. WS is heavily relying on the MAX for fleet renewal and new routes with the MAX 7. Even if they wanted to pivot to Airbus, when would they get the aircraft?
 
BML87
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:13 am

YYCFlier wrote:
BML87 wrote:
Why don't they just remove them from their schedules all together?


Not a chance. WS is heavily relying on the MAX for fleet renewal and new routes with the MAX 7. Even if they wanted to pivot to Airbus, when would they get the aircraft?


I'm not saying switch to another aircraft. I'm saying don't add them to the schedules until they know it's going to fly.
 
whywhytee
Posts: 53
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:42 pm

Does anyone know if any other aircraft besides their 787s and some of their MAXs are painted into the new livery?
 
Whiteguy
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:53 am

whywhytee wrote:
Does anyone know if any other aircraft besides their 787s and some of their MAXs are painted into the new livery?


None of the rest of the fleet has been painted in the new livery...not enough down time in the fleet and the priority is getting the cabin seating reconfigurations done.
 
WS7M8
Topic Author
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Jan 26, 2020 2:09 am

Whiteguy wrote:
whywhytee wrote:
Does anyone know if any other aircraft besides their 787s and some of their MAXs are painted into the new livery?


None of the rest of the fleet has been painted in the new livery...not enough down time in the fleet and the priority is getting the cabin seating reconfigurations done.


I'm surprised none of the WestJet Link / Pasco Saab 340s are in the new livery. Didn't that contract start after the paint scheme update?

Also - I believe I have seen some WestJet B737-700s with the Green Maple Leaf next to "WestJet" on the fuselage side, instead of the old logo.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Jan 26, 2020 2:14 am

WS7M8 wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
whywhytee wrote:
Does anyone know if any other aircraft besides their 787s and some of their MAXs are painted into the new livery?


None of the rest of the fleet has been painted in the new livery...not enough down time in the fleet and the priority is getting the cabin seating reconfigurations done.


I'm surprised none of the WestJet Link / Pasco Saab 340s are in the new livery. Didn't that contract start after the paint scheme update?

Also - I believe I have seen some WestJet B737-700s with the Green Maple Leaf next to "WestJet" on the fuselage side, instead of the old logo.


New livery was announced in May and Link started flying in June, most aircraft were already painted.

The new Maple Leaf was already applied to many aircraft before the new livery was announced.
 
hollywoodcory
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:12 pm

In today's schedule update, the most noteworthy thing is YHZ-CDG appears to have been completely cut. Not showing at all now.

Also YYC/YEG-HNL is still operating in April now, but with a 738 instead of 7M8.
 
BML87
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:20 pm

hollywoodcory wrote:
In today's schedule update, the most noteworthy thing is YHZ-CDG appears to have been completely cut. Not showing at all now.

Also YYC/YEG-HNL is still operating in April now, but with a 738 instead of 7M8.


Are we expecting the full summer schedule tomorrow? This would generally be the week it gets announced.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:27 pm

hollywoodcory wrote:
In today's schedule update, the most noteworthy thing is YHZ-CDG appears to have been completely cut. Not showing at all now.

Also YYC/YEG-HNL is still operating in April now, but with a 738 instead of 7M8.


CDG is no surprise, same as last summer.....

Good to see HNL operating, winds are much better going into the spring/summer.

Summer sked should be announced in the next week or two, I’m sure lots of changes happening because of the latest MAX delay.
 
hollywoodcory
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:16 am

BML87 wrote:
hollywoodcory wrote:
In today's schedule update, the most noteworthy thing is YHZ-CDG appears to have been completely cut. Not showing at all now.

Also YYC/YEG-HNL is still operating in April now, but with a 738 instead of 7M8.


Are we expecting the full summer schedule tomorrow? This would generally be the week it gets announced.


Probably not. Only changes in the schedule I've noticed so far is just the MAX removal.
 
YYCFlier
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:32 am

Whiteguy wrote:
Also YYC/YEG-HNL is still operating in April now, but with a 738 instead of 7M8.


Are you sure? I don't see it operating any dates in April. I don't think it has the range. Everyone is being re-routed via YVR. I think HNL is lost till the MAX returns.
 
BML87
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:45 am

YYCFlier wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
Also YYC/YEG-HNL is still operating in April now, but with a 738 instead of 7M8.


Are you sure? I don't see it operating any dates in April. I don't think it has the range. Everyone is being re-routed via YVR. I think HNL is lost till the MAX returns.


YEG-HNL is operating on April 11 with the -800.
 
hollywoodcory
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:52 am

YYCFlier wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
Also YYC/YEG-HNL is still operating in April now, but with a 738 instead of 7M8.


Are you sure? I don't see it operating any dates in April. I don't think it has the range. Everyone is being re-routed via YVR. I think HNL is lost till the MAX returns.


I checked again just now, and I can see availability for YYC-HNL from April 6.

WS1860 YYC 16:15 - 19:41 HNL 157 738
WS1681 HNL 20:45 - 07:18+1 YYC 157 738

I'll check again later in the week to see if it gets pulled or further modified.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:49 am

YYCFlier wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
Also YYC/YEG-HNL is still operating in April now, but with a 738 instead of 7M8.


Are you sure? I don't see it operating any dates in April. I don't think it has the range. Everyone is being re-routed via YVR. I think HNL is lost till the MAX returns.


That wasn’t me that wrote it but so far I see the change in the schedule. YYC-HNL operates Monday and Tuesday with the NG for part of April.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:59 am

hollywoodcory wrote:
BML87 wrote:
hollywoodcory wrote:
In today's schedule update, the most noteworthy thing is YHZ-CDG appears to have been completely cut. Not showing at all now.

Also YYC/YEG-HNL is still operating in April now, but with a 738 instead of 7M8.


Are we expecting the full summer schedule tomorrow? This would generally be the week it gets announced.


Probably not. Only changes in the schedule I've noticed so far is just the MAX removal.


Summer sked is usually announced around the 30th, you won’t necessarily see anything changed until after then.
 
BML87
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:12 am

Whiteguy wrote:
hollywoodcory wrote:
BML87 wrote:

Are we expecting the full summer schedule tomorrow? This would generally be the week it gets announced.


Probably not. Only changes in the schedule I've noticed so far is just the MAX removal.


Summer sked is usually announced around the 30th, you won’t necessarily see anything changed until after then.


2019 was announced Monday, January 28
2018 was announced Monday, January 29

Should be tomorrow, if following the same pattern.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:54 am

BML87 wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
hollywoodcory wrote:

Probably not. Only changes in the schedule I've noticed so far is just the MAX removal.


Summer sked is usually announced around the 30th, you won’t necessarily see anything changed until after then.


2019 was announced Monday, January 28
2018 was announced Monday, January 29

Should be tomorrow, if following the same pattern.


:thumbsup:
 
YYCFlier
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:44 pm

They appear to be late this year... wonder if the uncertainty on the MAX is weighing down. Will it really be June?
 
TObound
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:52 pm

I still don't fully understand the DL-WS partnership? Is it only about coordinating flights into the US?
 
hollywoodcory
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:14 pm

YYCFlier wrote:
They appear to be late this year... wonder if the uncertainty on the MAX is weighing down. Will it really be June?


Hearing the summer schedule is finished, but delayed due to the MAX schedule revisions.
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:06 am

TObound wrote:
I still don't fully understand the DL-WS partnership? Is it only about coordinating flights into the US?


Yes, purpose built to create a USA transborder cooperation.
 
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qf789
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:03 am

WestJet 789 C-GKKN on a test flight out of PAE, should be delivered later this week

Image

https://twitter.com/JenSchuld/status/12 ... 44480?s=20
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hollywoodcory
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:52 am

hollywoodcory wrote:
YYCFlier wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
Also YYC/YEG-HNL is still operating in April now, but with a 738 instead of 7M8.


Are you sure? I don't see it operating any dates in April. I don't think it has the range. Everyone is being re-routed via YVR. I think HNL is lost till the MAX returns.


I checked again just now, and I can see availability for YYC-HNL from April 6.

WS1860 YYC 16:15 - 19:41 HNL 157 738
WS1681 HNL 20:45 - 07:18+1 YYC 157 738

I'll check again later in the week to see if it gets pulled or further modified.


And in tonight's schedule update WS1860/1861 have been removed in April. YEG-Hawaii also gone too.

Haven't noticed any summer changes yet other than a few time changes/equipment.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:22 pm

hollywoodcory wrote:
hollywoodcory wrote:
YYCFlier wrote:

Are you sure? I don't see it operating any dates in April. I don't think it has the range. Everyone is being re-routed via YVR. I think HNL is lost till the MAX returns.


I checked again just now, and I can see availability for YYC-HNL from April 6.

WS1860 YYC 16:15 - 19:41 HNL 157 738
WS1681 HNL 20:45 - 07:18+1 YYC 157 738

I'll check again later in the week to see if it gets pulled or further modified.


And in tonight's schedule update WS1860/1861 have been removed in April. YEG-Hawaii also gone too.

Haven't noticed any summer changes yet other than a few time changes/equipment.


Not surprised
 
hollywoodcory
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:15 pm

WS2702 YYZ-MBJ returned to YYZ just over 2 hours into its flight because a man claimed he'd been to China and contracted the Cornavirus. Flight couldn't land in the US or Jamaica so had to return back to YYZ. Apparently it was all a joke, but not a very funny one. Hopefully WS goes after him for full cost of inconveniencing 240 people.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ ... -1.5450824
 
WS7M8
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:11 am

While we wait for the summer schedule to be unveiled.....here is a link to an article about an executive at WestJet who was their VP of Networks, Alliances & Corporate Development and who just accepted a job at American Airlines. It is a short but interesting peek at a behind-the-scenes player who helped shape WestJet strategy the last few years.

https://www.stattimes.com/news/brian-zn ... g-aviation

And here is another article that came through my airline news feed today. It is focused on the Delta-Air France-KLM-Virgin Atlantic TATL joint venture. My 2 cents says that as soon as the WestJet - Delta joint venture is approved, that they'll also be looking to join this pact. I definitely see a place for WJ in it, to help balance things on the North American side, plus offer some interesting connection opportunities. Longer term, I could project WestJet being a tool for Delta to route lower-yielding traffic to high-volume European destinations to help compete against Air Canada / Rouge who are certainly making themselves known in the US by poaching passengers who would traditionally be traveling on a US legacy carrier (eg NYC-YYZ-LGW, SEA-YYC-CDG)

https://www.ajc.com/blog/airport/delta- ... K8xfnponI/
 
TObound
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:58 am

My WestJet wishlist for Onex to pull off:

1) Elimination of Encore and Swoop and bringing all those operations in-house to strengthen the WestJet brand and deliver consistency for pax.

2) Buy out Sunwing. Maybe merge Swoop in with it instead of mainline.

3) Adoption of Delta SkyMiles or AFKL Flying Blue instead of WestJet rewards.

4) Build co-branded WestJet-Delta-SkyTeam lounges in 10 major cities: Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Halifax and Quebec City. Get access to Virgin lounges at LGW.

5) Join SkyTeam and the DL/AFKL/VS Joint Venture.

6) Declare Ottawa a hub. Build a regional network for Ontario and Quebec centred at YOW. Launch narrowbody TATL to LGW, CDG and AMS from YOW.

7) Declare Montreal a focus city.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:08 am

TObound wrote:
My WestJet wishlist for Onex to pull off:

1) Elimination of Encore and Swoop and bringing all those operations in-house to strengthen the WestJet brand and deliver consistency for pax.

2) Buy out Sunwing. Maybe merge Swoop in with it instead of mainline.

3) Adoption of Delta SkyMiles or AFKL Flying Blue instead of WestJet rewards.

4) Build co-branded WestJet-Delta-SkyTeam lounges in 10 major cities: Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Halifax and Quebec City. Get access to Virgin lounges at LGW.

5) Join SkyTeam and the DL/AFKL/VS Joint Venture.

6) Declare Ottawa a hub. Build a regional network for Ontario and Quebec centred at YOW. Launch narrowbody TATL to LGW, CDG and AMS from YOW.

7) Declare Montreal a focus city.


Encore is in house, operated as Westjet.
 
TObound
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:20 am

Whiteguy wrote:
TObound wrote:
My WestJet wishlist for Onex to pull off:

1) Elimination of Encore and Swoop and bringing all those operations in-house to strengthen the WestJet brand and deliver consistency for pax.

2) Buy out Sunwing. Maybe merge Swoop in with it instead of mainline.

3) Adoption of Delta SkyMiles or AFKL Flying Blue instead of WestJet rewards.

4) Build co-branded WestJet-Delta-SkyTeam lounges in 10 major cities: Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Halifax and Quebec City. Get access to Virgin lounges at LGW.

5) Join SkyTeam and the DL/AFKL/VS Joint Venture.

6) Declare Ottawa a hub. Build a regional network for Ontario and Quebec centred at YOW. Launch narrowbody TATL to LGW, CDG and AMS from YOW.

7) Declare Montreal a focus city.


Encore is in house, operated as Westjet.


Yet there's weird stuff not like getting points with Flying Blue on Encore.
 
hollywoodcory
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:24 pm

Summer Schedule officially out and looks like all increases are at YYC, including the new daily Link service to Dawson Creek, BC.
http://westjet.mediaroom.com/2020-02-07 ... his-summer
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:41 pm

Does anyone know when the yyc lounge will officially be done construction?
 
Jayce
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:11 pm

hollywoodcory wrote:
Summer Schedule officially out and looks like all increases are at YYC, including the new daily Link service to Dawson Creek, BC.
http://westjet.mediaroom.com/2020-02-07 ... his-summer


That looks like it’s mostly encore, no?
"Trying is the first step towards failure" -Homer Simpson
 
hollywoodcory
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:52 pm

cirrusdragoon wrote:
Does anyone know when the yyc lounge will officially be done construction?


Planned for late summer, maybe September or October.
 
dmanonice
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:05 pm

Jayce wrote:
hollywoodcory wrote:
Summer Schedule officially out and looks like all increases are at YYC, including the new daily Link service to Dawson Creek, BC.
http://westjet.mediaroom.com/2020-02-07 ... his-summer


That looks like it’s mostly encore, no?


Dawson Creek will be Link, but yes overall a good chunk of extra Encore operated flights. The link operated YXS flight shifts back to Encore to make Dawson Creek possible.
Mike
 
hollywoodcory
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:54 pm

None of these changes appear to be loaded and bookable yet, so I'm wondering if there will be further announcements.
 
abrelosojos
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:04 pm

What a boring list of network changes. And, who does their press releases? Sometimes "7 weekly flights", sometimes "daily", all over the place.

Saludos,
Alex
Live, and let live.
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:29 pm

abrelosojos wrote:
What a boring list of network changes. And, who does their press releases? Sometimes "7 weekly flights", sometimes "daily", all over the place.

Saludos,
Alex


Boring to you perhaps, but for others who live in those regions are happy to have the ability to connect to the globe. Networks are built with the smallest pieces of the puzzle board . Foundation steps.
 
BML87
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:00 am

WestJet now serves 12 destinations in BC from YYC, very impressive. I still see 5 more possibilities; Castlegar, Prince Rupert, Sandspit, Terrace and Smithers.
 
CAPTYXU
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:11 am

There is no way this is it with Onex at the helm we will see some toronto in a separate announcement looking ahead at some of the eastern flight schedules and they make no sense
 
hollywoodcory
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:41 pm

WS loaded all of the mentioned changes plus more in today's schedule update, except for YYC-YDQ. They still have not opened reservation for Dawson's Creek. There were YYZ changes loaded to, so maybe they'll put out the press release for that this week. No new routes found yet.

YYC-SFO is now 2x daily from April 26 instead of mid-May.
YYC-DEN appears to be operated 1457 instead of 2457.
YYC-IAH - Overall still up to 12x weekly, but scheduled times have been adjusted. On Mondays there are 3 inbound flights from IAH. See schedule below:

WS1540 YYC 07:00 - 11:55 IAH 1245
WS1541 IAH 13:00 - 16:10 YYC 1245
WS1572 YYC 11:15 - 16:17 IAH 367
WS1534 YYC 12:15 - 17:15 IAH 1245
WS1535 IAH 18:10 - 21:20 YYC 1234567
WS1576 YYC 18:00 - 23:02 IAH 7
WS1577 IAH 07:25 - 10:35 YYC 1
Probably more changes coming down the road.

I'll check again later to see what else I can find.
 
BML87
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:08 pm

These are the changes I've found for YEG:

Comox from 7 to 8 weekly
Fort McMurray from 25 to 29 weekly
Kelowna from 47 to 50 weekly
Montreal from 7 to 3 weekly
Ottawa from 7 to 4 weekly
Saskatoon from 20 to 26 weekly
St. John's from 3 to 4 weekly

Really interesting how WS has more capacity on YEG-YYT than YEG-YUL
 
Skywatcher
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:55 pm

I know that WestJet gets flamed here for the low levels of service from YUL and YOW but I just checked it out and it's worse than I expected. From YOW there are currently 13 daily flights to YYZ (almost all Q-400), 1 to YYC,1 to YHZ and 1 to YWG. There's also a handful of flights to Jamaica/Cancun/Ft.Myers/Orlando (total 9 weekly).

From YUL there are 12 daily (almost all Q-4000) to YYZ,1 to YYC and 1 to YHZ. No sun flights whatsoever.

That's it for the second and fifth largest cities in Canada.

There are some posters here that state the flights from YUL in particular are money losers and so on. Does Air Canada lose money on their 5 daily (2 widebodies) flights from YUL to YVR? How about their 3 daily flights to Calgary which is Westjet's primary hub?

I would call this a massive marketing failure on WestJet's part and all I can say is good luck growing an airline any further in Canada if you're main hope is growing Calgary with what I'm told is a devastated economy. How could they be so inept? It looks like they are in fact continuing to decrease service to these markets. AC at least must be grateful.
 
YYCFlier
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:08 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
I know that WestJet gets flamed here for the low levels of service from YUL and YOW but I just checked it out and it's worse than I expected. From YOW there are currently 13 daily flights to YYZ (almost all Q-400), 1 to YYC,1 to YHZ and 1 to YWG. There's also a handful of flights to Jamaica/Cancun/Ft.Myers/Orlando (total 9 weekly).

From YUL there are 12 daily (almost all Q-4000) to YYZ,1 to YYC and 1 to YHZ. No sun flights whatsoever.

That's it for the second and fifth largest cities in Canada.

There are some posters here that state the flights from YUL in particular are money losers and so on. Does Air Canada lose money on their 5 daily (2 widebodies) flights from YUL to YVR? How about their 3 daily flights to Calgary which is Westjet's primary hub?

I would call this a massive marketing failure on WestJet's part and all I can say is good luck growing an airline any further in Canada if you're main hope is growing Calgary with what I'm told is a devastated economy. How could they be so inept? It looks like they are in fact continuing to decrease service to these markets. AC at least must be grateful.


You seem to think all airlines should make the 2nd and 5th largest cities in Canada hubs. Just like all of the Delta flights in MIA, or all the United flights in ATL. Repeat after me: YUL is not a WS hub. It's not even a focus city. It's an outstation. Outstations by definition only have flights to hubs or other focus cities - and most of those are to the closest hub. In this case, YUL is closest to YYZ and so has many flights to YYZ, 1 to YYC (WestJet's largest hub) and one to YHZ (a focus city). These are strategic and are meant to draw traffic out of YUL to WestJet's hubs (remember how YUL is not a hub again)?

YUL is an Air Canada fortress, and Quebecers are notorious for choosing the home teams (Air Canada and Transat, soon to be even bigger Air Canada).

Air Canada does not lose money on YVR-YUL because those two airports are hubs for Air Canada and there is O&D, plus AC is routing YUL passengers to YVR for TPAC, and YVR passengers to YUL for TATL. Air Canada does not lose money on YYC-YUL because those two are also hubs, and AC is mainly drawing YYC passengers out to YUL for TATL/Transborder flights. There's nothing in YYC you can't get in YUL on AC.

Reviewing the concept of hubs again - YYC is WestJet's biggest hub and over 50% of their traffic does not originate or terminate in YYC. That means more than half of their passengers are connecting. So, it doens't matter so much how bad the economy is - none of these passengers are coming or going to Calgary. That's the benefit of a hub - if you get enough of a network, it doesn't need a huge O&D, though this obviously helps.

WS has a big hub in the east, and it's YYZ. That's the airport they will grow. Not YUL. YOW would be a good choice as a focus city as AC ignores it somewhat with YUL/YYZ being so close. But YUL will never happen. It makes no business sense. If you are YUL-based, fly Air Canada, like everyone else. Or fly WestJet if you prefer, but you'll have to connect to one of their hubs (remember, YUL isn't one and neither is YOW).
 
jimbo737
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:28 am

Couldn’t have said it better myself.
 
AC183
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:12 am

Montreal and Ottawa may not be Westjet hubs, but that's not entirely the point. A few thoughts:

At 1300-1500 seats per day into either market, they're looking at less than 5% market share in YUL and less than 20% in Ottawa. Population and geography dictate that the Canadian market is different than the US. No, I wouldn't expect them to even be a particularly strong second place in YUL, but should be able to handle more of a presence. Especially with their shift from a regional player to a national player that is building international alliances. DL, KL, and AF manage decent showings in Montreal, after all.

Not all passengers are originating in YUL or YOW. WS strength on the prairies and in BC should position them better.

YUL is less of a fortress for AC than ATL is for DL. And AA would want to make sure to hold a decent share on ATL-DFW.

It remains a fact that there are 8 primary airports in Canada with 3M+ traffic, and another dozen key regional airports. In the US there are around 80 airports with 3M+. Again, they may be stronger in some airports than others, but hard not to see enlarging their footprint in YUL and YOW as necessary.

I think their fleet sort of ties their hands a bit. If they had something in the 90-130 seat size it would open up a lot more opportunities. Will be interesting both to see what Boeing comes up with in place of the Max, and whether WS looks to change its fleet strategy.
 
WS7M8
Topic Author
Posts: 78
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:10 pm

hollywoodcory wrote:
None of these changes appear to be loaded and bookable yet, so I'm wondering if there will be further announcements.


Agree with this sentiment. For the last couple years, WestJet seems to have been releasing their schedules / route additions on a drip-drip-drip basis, vs a press release with everything wrapped into it. The above press release was Calgary-centric - it didn't mention YVR or YYZ. They'll probably come out with something for those cities within a week or two, perhaps with the intent of letting each one get their day in the media, to get the most bang for their PR efforts. Keep in mind that many of the Calgary routes, from FCO, to the additional Dreamliner flying to CDG & DUB, daily YYC LGW, and even Charlottetown and Boston had been announced already. Plus they may be a bit hamstrung with the Max 8 situation, trying to optimize every bit of flying they out of their B737NGs in a situation when it is anyones guess when their 13 most capable B737s are coming back, and thus they may still be refining their YYZ summer schedule.

Finally, as many of us have been pointing out over the last few months, there may be some additional YYZ - Europe B767 flying being announced, which certainly would merit its own day in the sun, likely alongside a few strategic additions to their Toronto network to facilitate connections.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2743
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:34 pm

YYCFlier wrote:
Skywatcher wrote:
I know that WestJet gets flamed here for the low levels of service from YUL and YOW but I just checked it out and it's worse than I expected. From YOW there are currently 13 daily flights to YYZ (almost all Q-400), 1 to YYC,1 to YHZ and 1 to YWG. There's also a handful of flights to Jamaica/Cancun/Ft.Myers/Orlando (total 9 weekly).

From YUL there are 12 daily (almost all Q-4000) to YYZ,1 to YYC and 1 to YHZ. No sun flights whatsoever.

That's it for the second and fifth largest cities in Canada.

There are some posters here that state the flights from YUL in particular are money losers and so on. Does Air Canada lose money on their 5 daily (2 widebodies) flights from YUL to YVR? How about their 3 daily flights to Calgary which is Westjet's primary hub?

I would call this a massive marketing failure on WestJet's part and all I can say is good luck growing an airline any further in Canada if you're main hope is growing Calgary with what I'm told is a devastated economy. How could they be so inept? It looks like they are in fact continuing to decrease service to these markets. AC at least must be grateful.


You seem to think all airlines should make the 2nd and 5th largest cities in Canada hubs. Just like all of the Delta flights in MIA, or all the United flights in ATL. Repeat after me: YUL is not a WS hub. It's not even a focus city. It's an outstation. Outstations by definition only have flights to hubs or other focus cities - and most of those are to the closest hub. In this case, YUL is closest to YYZ and so has many flights to YYZ, 1 to YYC (WestJet's largest hub) and one to YHZ (a focus city). These are strategic and are meant to draw traffic out of YUL to WestJet's hubs (remember how YUL is not a hub again)?

YUL is an Air Canada fortress, and Quebecers are notorious for choosing the home teams (Air Canada and Transat, soon to be even bigger Air Canada).

Air Canada does not lose money on YVR-YUL because those two airports are hubs for Air Canada and there is O&D, plus AC is routing YUL passengers to YVR for TPAC, and YVR passengers to YUL for TATL. Air Canada does not lose money on YYC-YUL because those two are also hubs, and AC is mainly drawing YYC passengers out to YUL for TATL/Transborder flights. There's nothing in YYC you can't get in YUL on AC.

Reviewing the concept of hubs again - YYC is WestJet's biggest hub and over 50% of their traffic does not originate or terminate in YYC. That means more than half of their passengers are connecting. So, it doens't matter so much how bad the economy is - none of these passengers are coming or going to Calgary. That's the benefit of a hub - if you get enough of a network, it doesn't need a huge O&D, though this obviously helps.

WS has a big hub in the east, and it's YYZ. That's the airport they will grow. Not YUL. YOW would be a good choice as a focus city as AC ignores it somewhat with YUL/YYZ being so close. But YUL will never happen. It makes no business sense. If you are YUL-based, fly Air Canada, like everyone else. Or fly WestJet if you prefer, but you'll have to connect to one of their hubs (remember, YUL isn't one and neither is YOW).


While it’s understandable that WS are weak against AC at YUL (but they really are ridiculously weak), the fact that their seat capacity at YOW is on par with the likes of YLW and YYJ has always been beyond puzzling. You would think YOW would be at least on par with YWG and YHZ in WestJet’s world...if it were YOW would be pushing the 6 million pax mark, instead of just over 5M.

However, there are signs that Onex-owned WS will start to turn their attention to Central Canada. The CEO all but admitted they’re an afterthought in Ottawa and Montréal, and the fact that they were awarded 3 LGW slots with the intent of using them to launch LGW-YOW (clearly delayed by the MAX mess), are indications that this might change in the next couple of years.

Given the lead time for most network planning is 8-12 months in advance, the YYC-centric announcements for summer 2020 obviously predate Onex controlling WS. I’ll be far more curious about summer 2021 and whether Sims’ comments about strengthening YYZ and especially YOW and YUL are accurate. Once the MAX is back in the air, there is no reason why WS can’t replicate YHZ’s transatlantic offering at YOW within the span of 5 years.
 
YYCFlier
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:42 pm

Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:45 pm

AC183 wrote:
DL, KL, and AF manage decent showings in Montreal, after all.


Let's examine that. My previous assertion was that when you are an outstation, you get flights to a carrier's hubs and focus cities.
DL flies to ATL, DTW, MSP, JFK, LGA. These are all Delta hubs.
KL flies to AMS, KL's main hub.
AF flies to CDG, AF's main hub. Also note YUL is a unique market because there is a lot of O&D on YUL-CDG.

I don't see any difference here. DL just has more hubs than WS.

AC183 wrote:
And AA would want to make sure to hold a decent share on ATL-DFW.


Only to route traffic out of ATL and into DFW for other markets. WS has 14 daily you said from YUL-YYZ? Seems the same to me.

AC183 wrote:
YUL is less of a fortress for AC than ATL is for DL.


DL has about 75% of market in ATL. I would argue if you combine all Air Canada (Express, Rouge), Transat (second largest carrier at YUL and whose acquisition is imminent) and all Star Alliance carriers (there are lots), you are close to the same in YUL. Pre-Transat merger I would have agreed with you.

AC183 wrote:
Especially with their shift from a regional player to a national player that is building international alliances. Not all passengers are originating in YUL or YOW. WS strength on the prairies and in BC should position them better.


WS has been a national airline for many years, but it is definitely much weaker in the east. You could also say the same for Air Canada in the west though. With the exception of YVR, WestJet has more frequencies on larger aircraft in Canada to most airports in Manitoba west. There are a few outliers due to historical essential air service but otherwise, if you are in western Canada, you will get more choice and a better schedule traveling domestically on WestJet.

AC183 wrote:
No, I wouldn't expect them to even be a particularly strong second place in YUL, but should be able to handle more of a presence.


They could, but the question is should they? WestJet has tried to expand YUL in the past with sun destinations, and this should be a no brainer slam dunk, yet they get their arse handed to them by the local favourites, Air Canada and Transat. Quebecers will not fly them. They would be far better off expanding YYZ. Only when YYZ is saturated - and I would argue this will take a long time - would an expansion make sense, and YOW makes more sense than YUL. Quebecers may fly them to connect at YYZ to go to Europe if the price is right, but Montreal has excellent international service, with 70% of their passengers going to the U.S. or beyond (this is flip flopped from say YYC, which is the opposite). As a YUL based flier going to Europe why wouldn't I go direct?

AC183 wrote:
but hard not to see enlarging their footprint in YUL and YOW as necessary.


I really don't think it is. It's the same reason Air Canada doesn't expand YYC, which is by far its smallest hub (and not a "major" one, it's considered a regional one) - they want to grow and maintain YVR, and so any expansion will be there with connections from YYC. YUL is a waste of time and WestJet has massive opportunity at YYZ. YOW has potential as a focus city though.

Sims is on record as wanting to expand in the Eastern triangle (likely due to pressure from Toronto based Onex), but it's going to fail. If I lived in the eastern triangle and my travel was primarily YYZ-YUL-YOW on business, I would have no reason to fly WestJet:
    AC is in Star Alliance, WS is in no alliance
    AC has a vastly superior FF program
    AC has a major international network if I wanted to go for leisure
    AC operates tons of flights on jets with comfortable J (and has J, WestJet is rolling this out but it's only on the 800s and 7M8s)
    AC allows mileage redemptions for J
    AC has a major lounge network that is national (WS will have one in YYC maybe in 2020)
    AC has lots of flight pass options, WS has none

I would argue on the Western triangle Air Canada is much better, including same day standby, if my travel were limited to YVR-YYC-YEG (not if I was also visiting other cities though, WestJet's network is much better). So we will see, but I can't see anyone in the east on business travel springing for hours of Dash-8-400 flights and sweet little else. They should instead focus on growing YYZ's network and then launching new 789 routes from YYZ.

AC183 wrote:
I think their fleet sort of ties their hands a bit. If they had something in the 90-130 seat size it would open up a lot more opportunities. Will be interesting both to see what Boeing comes up with in place of the Max, and whether WS looks to change its fleet strategy.


The majority of WestJet's fleet is in this range. The 600NG is 113 seats, and the 700NG is 132 (once the new seats go in). This is a large portion of their fleet. What WestJet really needs is the E175 jets, that have a 75-80 seats and longer legs than the Dash-8-400. Buy 40 of those, and let Encore run them. There are lots of qualified pilots and the E175 is very comfortable even on longer flights. You could open up lots of locations in YVR, YYC and YYZ with those. If they put them on the Eastern triangle with proper J and proper lounges, then you might even have a shot at some competition there but it would still be a tough slog. They're still better off using those frames to grow their hubs in my opinion.
 
Skywatcher
Posts: 879
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:19 am

Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:27 pm

A few points;

Nobody ever stated that YUL/YOW should be WestJet hubs. Yikes.

I stated earlier that WestJet failed to market themselves effectively in these two markets. How did they manage to not capitalize on their supposed CASM advantage over AC? I believe that the marketing that works in YYC/YVR/YYZ is not effective in YUL/YOW. Simply put, they blew it and need to fix it.

I unfortunately always detect the infamous east/west division when this topic comes up. The westerners feel "why don't those ungrateful, biased Quebecers/Federal civil servants just fly our crappy Q-400's and be happy?". I fly out of YUL a lot and WestJet simply doesn't offer a reasonable choice, ever. They are not even on the radar. It's also not necessarily a language thing. There are more Anglophones in Montreal than in Winnipeg and they don't seem to be flying WestJet either.

I wish it were different. Who doesn't want more choices, especially if they're cheaper which WestJet is supposed to be?
 
YYCFlier
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:42 pm

Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:17 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
I stated earlier that WestJet failed to market themselves effectively in these two markets. How did they manage to not capitalize on their supposed CASM advantage over AC? I believe that the marketing that works in YYC/YVR/YYZ is not effective in YUL/YOW. Simply put, they blew it and need to fix it.


And I believe no amount of marketing will ever get YUL based fliers to switch to WestJet. There is nothing WestJet can offer that Air Canada can't do better in YUL especially as a fortress hub. The amount of money they would have to spend in YUL to even move the bar a little is enormous, and that investment could be directed to YYZ with more bigger payout. As for YOW, I agree there is some potential there over time, and I suspect WestJet might launch some seasonal TATL MAX service once they can fly them.

Skywatcher wrote:
I unfortunately always detect the infamous east/west division when this topic comes up. The westerners feel "why don't those ungrateful, biased Quebecers/Federal civil servants just fly our crappy Q-400's and be happy?". I fly out of YUL a lot and WestJet simply doesn't offer a reasonable choice, ever. They are not even on the radar. It's also not necessarily a language thing. There are more Anglophones in Montreal than in Winnipeg and they don't seem to be flying WestJet either.


I don't think they do either. I wouldn't fly WestJet if I were based in YUL either. I agree with you. And it's not about language, it's about network, aircraft and the hard and soft products. Even if WestJet were equal - Quebecois are typically biased to the home team. Where I disagree - Montreal is a lost cause. There is no way to grow that market more than marginally and if I were a network planner, I would be looking at bigger opportunities. They should put their effort into YYZ. And I say this as a YYC-based flier who rarely flies WestJet for business, mostly because it doesn't fly where I need to go when I need to go (leisure is another ballgame). Montreal is a reliever hub even for Air Canada except for French-speaking markets over Toronto. WestJet can earn way more revenue and profit out of that airport.

Skywatcher wrote:
I wish it were different. Who doesn't want more choices, especially if they're cheaper which WestJet is supposed to be?


WestJet stopped being a LCC a long time ago. On many routes, Air Canada is cheaper or provides better value. They are not cheaper, not even close. Competitive, but not cheaper. And I hate to break it to you but YUL is about to become one of the least competitive airports in Canada with Transat being gobbled by Air Canada.

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