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Bingo1
Posts: 237
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:12 pm

Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:03 pm

Does anyone know what the time frame is to add more Link planes? Neither AC or WS seem to have had the metal in the past to add the YVR-YQU routing that YQU has been after for some time. A Link route could be a great test for that city pair.
Planecrzy
 
YYCFlier
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:49 pm

It won’t be WS probably as there are a lot more connections in YYC for passengers. I think Link is full in the west and they are looking for CPA in east.
 
9252fly
Posts: 1031
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:58 pm

YYCFlier wrote:
It won’t be WS probably as there are a lot more connections in YYC for passengers. I think Link is full in the west and they are looking for CPA in east.


If the route is launched it will likely be AC on a Q400 as YVR is one of their major hubs. WS will go to great lengths to defend their YYC hub and AC will do the same with YVR. I don't see the route being launched unless AC sees WS pulling too much traffic that could be routed via YVR.
 
Dominion301
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Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:10 pm

YYCFlier wrote:
It won’t be WS probably as there are a lot more connections in YYC for passengers. I think Link is full in the west and they are looking for CPA in east.


If I were to guess about an East Link partner, I could see PAL getting picked. It seems like Air Georgian is a no-go. Every other option seems like it would be of no interest to the carrier or would step on AC’s toes including:
-Pascan - would they have the interest?
-Voyageur - a wholly-owned subsidiary of Chorus/Jazz...too close to AC?
-Canadian North - post-merger, l think it’s safe to say they have a surplus of turboprop aircraft. However, they rely on AC a lot for feed at YOW & YUL, and to a lesser extent, YEG. Would a WS partnership hurt that relationship?
-Air Inuit and Air Creebec also rely on AC for feed.
-Wasaya?
-EVAS?...AC’s last Tier lll partner.

I can’t see Bearskin being interested.

Who else is there in the east?

A tier lll partner out of YYZ would allow WS to properly re-enter YAM & YSB and serve YQG (finally become year-round...I think they could already do so on a DH4 2x daily), YTS, YYB, YZR and maybe YGK. They would need 5-7 aircraft to handle all this, depending on frequency.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:22 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
YYCFlier wrote:
It won’t be WS probably as there are a lot more connections in YYC for passengers. I think Link is full in the west and they are looking for CPA in east.


If I were to guess about an East Link partner, I could see PAL getting picked. It seems like Air Georgian is a no-go. Every other option seems like it would be of no interest to the carrier or would step on AC’s toes including:
-Pascan - would they have the interest?
-Voyageur - a wholly-owned subsidiary of Chorus/Jazz...too close to AC?
-Canadian North - post-merger, l think it’s safe to say they have a surplus of turboprop aircraft. However, they rely on AC a lot for feed at YOW & YUL, and to a lesser extent, YEG. Would a WS partnership hurt that relationship?
-Air Inuit and Air Creebec also rely on AC for feed.
-Wasaya?
-EVAS?...AC’s last Tier lll partner.

I can’t see Bearskin being interested.

Who else is there in the east?

A tier lll partner out of YYZ would allow WS to properly re-enter YAM & YSB and serve YQG (finally become year-round...I think they could already do so on a DH4 2x daily), YTS, YYB, YZR and maybe YGK. They would need 5-7 aircraft to handle all this, depending on frequency.


Talk is PAL is the front runner, but there are holdups regarding painting airplanes for the service. That's just what I've personally heard, so I can't confirm or deny anything.
 
Bingo1
Posts: 237
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:33 pm

sully66 wrote:
I sure wish YPA was on their radar. A lot of potential customers from northern sask as well as rural areas who do not want to drive all the way to YXE
Granted they need CATSA facility at YPA, but I'm sure that could be arranged somehow


Been thinking about YPA service. Have they had connections to the full service airlines in the past? I recall seeing a pic of a Canadian F-28 at YPA in the past.
Planecrzy
 
Bingo1
Posts: 237
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:12 pm

Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:37 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
YYCFlier wrote:
It won’t be WS probably as there are a lot more connections in YYC for passengers. I think Link is full in the west and they are looking for CPA in east.


If I were to guess about an East Link partner, I could see PAL getting picked. It seems like Air Georgian is a no-go. Every other option seems like it would be of no interest to the carrier or would step on AC’s toes including:
-Pascan - would they have the interest?
-Voyageur - a wholly-owned subsidiary of Chorus/Jazz...too close to AC?
-Canadian North - post-merger, l think it’s safe to say they have a surplus of turboprop aircraft. However, they rely on AC a lot for feed at YOW & YUL, and to a lesser extent, YEG. Would a WS partnership hurt that relationship?
-Air Inuit and Air Creebec also rely on AC for feed.
-Wasaya?
-EVAS?...AC’s last Tier lll partner.

I can’t see Bearskin being interested.

Who else is there in the east?

A tier lll partner out of YYZ would allow WS to properly re-enter YAM & YSB and serve YQG (finally become year-round...I think they could already do so on a DH4 2x daily), YTS, YYB, YZR and maybe YGK. They would need 5-7 aircraft to handle all this, depending on frequency.


Not exactly east but what about Calm Air?

At minimum Westjet should get some interline agreements in place with some of the northern airlines
Planecrzy
 
Bingo1
Posts: 237
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:44 pm

9252fly wrote:
YYCFlier wrote:
It won’t be WS probably as there are a lot more connections in YYC for passengers. I think Link is full in the west and they are looking for CPA in east.


If the route is launched it will likely be AC on a Q400 as YVR is one of their major hubs. WS will go to great lengths to defend their YYC hub and AC will do the same with YVR. I don't see the route being launched unless AC sees WS pulling too much traffic that could be routed via YVR.


AC hasn't had an increase in YQU service in quite some time. The growth at YQU has been driven by WS including the announcement of another increase over the summer. It would seem YQU would be ripe for a push back from AC.
Planecrzy
 
Dominion301
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:54 am

Bingo1 wrote:
sully66 wrote:
I sure wish YPA was on their radar. A lot of potential customers from northern sask as well as rural areas who do not want to drive all the way to YXE
Granted they need CATSA facility at YPA, but I'm sure that could be arranged somehow


Been thinking about YPA service. Have they had connections to the full service airlines in the past? I recall seeing a pic of a Canadian F-28 at YPA in the past.


CP definitely used to have CP Dash 8 service to YPA. An F-28 there must have dated from Time Air days.

Bingo1 wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
YYCFlier wrote:
It won’t be WS probably as there are a lot more connections in YYC for passengers. I think Link is full in the west and they are looking for CPA in east.


If I were to guess about an East Link partner, I could see PAL getting picked. It seems like Air Georgian is a no-go. Every other option seems like it would be of no interest to the carrier or would step on AC’s toes including:
-Pascan - would they have the interest?
-Voyageur - a wholly-owned subsidiary of Chorus/Jazz...too close to AC?
-Canadian North - post-merger, l think it’s safe to say they have a surplus of turboprop aircraft. However, they rely on AC a lot for feed at YOW & YUL, and to a lesser extent, YEG. Would a WS partnership hurt that relationship?
-Air Inuit and Air Creebec also rely on AC for feed.
-Wasaya?
-EVAS?...AC’s last Tier lll partner.

I can’t see Bearskin being interested.

Who else is there in the east?

A tier lll partner out of YYZ would allow WS to properly re-enter YAM & YSB and serve YQG (finally become year-round...I think they could already do so on a DH4 2x daily), YTS, YYB, YZR and maybe YGK. They would need 5-7 aircraft to handle all this, depending on frequency.


Not exactly east but what about Calm Air?

At minimum Westjet should get some interline agreements in place with some of the northern airlines


WS already interline with 5T/7F, but the North’s dominant carrier is definitely most definitely more closely aligned with AC. Other domestic interline partners for WS include CMA and PAL.

https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/about-us/airline-partners
 
WS7M8
Topic Author
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:53 am

Here are links to articles about Air Transat's summer schedule 2020 for Toronto and Calgary / Vancouver.

https://www.travelweek.ca/news/air-tran ... r-ontario/
https://www.travelweek.ca/news/air-tran ... d-alberta/

It is interesting to look at the destinations and project WestJet offering similar service once their widebody fleet grows to a more significant size. They just received their 4th B787, are taking on two more by the spring, and four next year. And certainly the distinction between a more business-class heavy WestJet B787 (16J, 28 Premium, 276 standard seats) and an Air Transat A330 which is more leisure-oriented is worth noting.

Of the Toronto markets, the ones with multiple weekly service that jump out from the chart as potentially ripe for WestJet YYZ service include Rome, Athens, Lisbon, Manchester, Glasgow, Dublin, Amsterdam & Paris. The last two obviously they codeshare with KLM & Air France respectively so it'll be interesting if they enter those markets with their own metal or are content to hand off passengers to partners. GLA, MAN & DUB they serve from YHZ. Provided sufficient widebodies existed in WestJet-land, I wonder if any of them would be brought to YYZ non-stop to take advantage of Southern Ontario's tremendous population size, instead of having to connect through YHZ.

Some of the Toronto markets Air Transat serves clearly caters to the ethnic makeup of the GTA (Zagreb), or a combination of that and boutique-type tourist destinations such as the secondary cities in Italy and Portugal .
 
hollywoodcory
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:06 pm

MAN & GLA are also good possibilities of future destinations out of YYC as well.
 
User001
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:40 pm

MAN a good candidate for YYZ and YYC in the future if the DL/WS partnership happens. It will have a VS hub at the MAN end and WS hub at the other so good potential
 
alan3
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:39 pm

Flair just announced 8 new routes for this summer: https://worldairlinenews.com/2020/02/21 ... is-summer/

Westjet freakout and predatory pricing coming in 5....4....3....2....
 
dinot
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:31 pm

Well...Swoop doesn't fly most of those routes..
 
alan3
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:20 am

dinot wrote:
Well...Swoop doesn't fly most of those routes..


Yet
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:59 am

alan3 wrote:
Flair just announced 8 new routes for this summer: https://worldairlinenews.com/2020/02/21 ... is-summer/

Westjet freakout and predatory pricing coming in 5....4....3....2....


competition is a good thing. all the best in their endeavor.
 
hollywoodcory
Posts: 175
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:12 pm

alan3 wrote:
Flair just announced 8 new routes for this summer: https://worldairlinenews.com/2020/02/21 ... is-summer/

Westjet freakout and predatory pricing coming in 5....4....3....2....


WS already flies a vast majority of those routes (they don't serve YSJ) I wouldn't really expect any kind of real reaction.
 
jimbo737
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:47 pm

One forgets there’s another rather large and aggressive Montreal headquartered outfit that operates 100% of those routes.

Flair’s route planning dartboard is getting a good workout.

They still manage to steadfastly avoid the one strategy that might actually allow for a modicum of success.
 
whywhytee
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:15 pm

I think that if fares are similar, passengers would fly Flair over Swoop because Flair flies to Toronto, compared to Swoop over in Hamilton.
 
jimbo737
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:09 pm

If fares are similar, there wouldn't be a snowball's chance of Flair being profitable operating to YYZ vs YHM. Costs and congestion resulting in lack of utilization guarantee that.

At YHM, it's not unusual for the takeoff to be delayed because the inflight crews haven't finished their safety demos, and the welcoming PA is still running when the aircraft is at the gate with engines shut down. Try that at YYZ.

YHM is a distinct market. It is not, nor in its 20+ years of sched passenger service has it ever been interchangeable with YYZ and certainly not if you live anywhere in the GTA east of Mississauga.

Now, if you live on the west side of Oakville, or anywhere in the vicinity of Brantford, Cambridge, St Catherines, Niagara Falls and of course Hamilton itself, etc, and can live without frequency, as is the case for most leisure travelers, YHM is a great, zero hassle, lower cost airport.
 
whywhytee
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:24 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
If fares are similar, there wouldn't be a snowball's chance of Flair being profitable operating to YYZ vs YHM. Costs and congestion resulting in lack of utilization guarantee that.

At YHM, it's not unusual for the takeoff to be delayed because the inflight crews haven't finished their safety demos, and the welcoming PA is still running when the aircraft is at the gate with engines shut down. Try that at YYZ.

YHM is a distinct market. It is not, nor in its 20+ years of sched passenger service has it ever been interchangeable with YYZ and certainly not if you live anywhere in the GTA east of Mississauga.

Now, if you live on the west side of Oakville, or anywhere in the vicinity of Brantford, Cambridge, St Catherines, Niagara Falls and of course Hamilton itself, etc, and can live without frequency, as is the case for most leisure travelers, YHM is a great, zero hassle, lower cost airport.


YHM is marketed as Toronto by Swoop though
 
jimbo737
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:12 pm

And Ryanair calls Beauvais, Paris even though one drives through the countryside for an hour + to get there from Paris.
 
alan3
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:19 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
YHM is a great, zero hassle, lower cost airport.


Flair agrees and they would likely still prefer to be there if not chased out by Swoop.
 
alan3
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:23 pm

cirrusdragoon wrote:
competition is a good thing. all the best in their endeavor.


Is certainly is. Especially for the consumer. A shame that Westjet/Swoop don't agree.

Adding routes for $1 that are already served by a smaller competitor is pretty clearly such an attempt at predatory pricing, which is why the the Competition Bureau launched their investigation against them.
 
jimbo737
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:39 pm

Good luck trying to prove anything.

Egg head Harvard economists can’t even agree on how to calculate variable / incremental costs. Your head would spin if you sat in on the Tribunal Hearings when they dive deep into this stuff. It is incredibly complex and there is merit to all the arguments, no matter which side you are on. It becomes an intellectual stalemate.

Add ancillary revenue, which wasn’t part of the picture 20 years ago, but definitely adds to the revenue stream, and the fact that WJ is a net profitable operation, (and likely wouldn’t be if Swoop was hemorrhaging cash offering these fares), not to mention Flairs completely indefensible strategy and it’ll be just about impossible to prove anything.

Have you noticed that no one has been stupid enough to match Flairs “unlimited flights for $700” deal?
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:39 am

alan3 wrote:
cirrusdragoon wrote:
competition is a good thing. all the best in their endeavor.


Is certainly is. Especially for the consumer. A shame that Westjet/Swoop don't agree.

Adding routes for $1 that are already served by a smaller competitor is pretty clearly such an attempt at predatory pricing, which is why the the Competition Bureau launched their investigation against them.


That is competition. Pure and simple. capitalism . let the best and strongest player win. No one ever said life was fair.
 
yegbey01
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:12 am

cirrusdragoon wrote:
alan3 wrote:
cirrusdragoon wrote:
competition is a good thing. all the best in their endeavor.


Is certainly is. Especially for the consumer. A shame that Westjet/Swoop don't agree.

Adding routes for $1 that are already served by a smaller competitor is pretty clearly such an attempt at predatory pricing, which is why the the Competition Bureau launched their investigation against them.


That is competition. Pure and simple. capitalism . let the best and strongest player win. No one ever said life was fair.


Competition isn't the same as predatory pricing. Airlines compete all around the world. But consumer protection exists for a reason.

When an airline engages in a behaviour that is entails losing money on purpose, and intends to drive its competitor out, only to then raise prices later...that is illegal. You can call it capitalism, but that's not how the world works even in a capitalist economies, especially when you are providing public goods that have a major direct on the health of the economy. Airlines do fall in that category (vs. two restaurants selling burgers and one trying to close the other shop)
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:10 am

yegbey01 wrote:
cirrusdragoon wrote:
alan3 wrote:

Is certainly is. Especially for the consumer. A shame that Westjet/Swoop don't agree.

Adding routes for $1 that are already served by a smaller competitor is pretty clearly such an attempt at predatory pricing, which is why the the Competition Bureau launched their investigation against them.


That is competition. Pure and simple. capitalism . let the best and strongest player win. No one ever said life was fair.


Competition isn't the same as predatory pricing. Airlines compete all around the world. But consumer protection exists for a reason.

When an airline engages in a behaviour that is entails losing money on purpose, and intends to drive its competitor out, only to then raise prices later...that is illegal. You can call it capitalism, but that's not how the world works even in a capitalist economies, especially when you are providing public goods that have a major direct on the health of the economy. Airlines do fall in that category (vs. two restaurants selling burgers and one trying to close the other shop)


retailers have flash sales, ride hailing companies and taxis , its either this, free market, or we go back to regulated air travel . Business is business, its nothing personal, if someone brings a product that is unsustainable then it deserves to go out of business, much like Ward Air , Canada 3000, Zoom.
 
jimbo737
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:29 pm

No business would move revenue generating assets (newer 737-800’s), from the profitable side of the business (WS), to an allegedly unprofitable side of the business (Swoop).

That is even more the case when the profitable side of the business can’t replace those assets with new airframes, (Max).

Trying to prove Swoop is predatory when it’s profitable will be near impossible.
 
alan3
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:46 pm

yegbey01 wrote:
cirrusdragoon wrote:
alan3 wrote:

Is certainly is. Especially for the consumer. A shame that Westjet/Swoop don't agree.

Adding routes for $1 that are already served by a smaller competitor is pretty clearly such an attempt at predatory pricing, which is why the the Competition Bureau launched their investigation against them.


That is competition. Pure and simple. capitalism . let the best and strongest player win. No one ever said life was fair.


Competition isn't the same as predatory pricing. Airlines compete all around the world. But consumer protection exists for a reason.

When an airline engages in a behaviour that is entails losing money on purpose, and intends to drive its competitor out, only to then raise prices later...that is illegal. You can call it capitalism, but that's not how the world works even in a capitalist economies, especially when you are providing public goods that have a major direct on the health of the economy. Airlines do fall in that category (vs. two restaurants selling burgers and one trying to close the other shop)



1. From the dictionary: "the pricing of goods or services at such a low level that other suppliers cannot compete and are forced to leave the market"

2. From Wikipedia: "Predatory pricing is a pricing strategy in which a company prices a product or service artificially low to gain new customers (loss leads), drive competitors out of the market, or create barriers to entry for new potential competitors"

3. Finally, from this CTV Article about the investigation: https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/federal ... -1.4399685

"Predatory pricing is when a company offers services below break-even costs to hobble a competitor, along with an expectation to recoup losses through future price hikes, according to Competition Bureau guidelines"


In all three definitions of predatory pricing above, Swoops' actions in YHM and particularly in YXX by offering those $1 fares could fit. $1 fares cannot be rationally explained as being a reasonable attempt at offering a competitive promotion as they are obviously drastically below break-even costs.

I agree there's nothing wrong with healthy competition and we'd all pay higher airfares without it. But if what Swoop keeps doing to Flair doesn't fit those above definitions....I guess I'm curious what WOULD be an example of predatory pricing by an airline? Swoop is owned by a much larger, profitable other airline and therefore can absorb losses from $1 fares if successfully does the job (which it did).
 
Dominion301
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:35 pm

alan3 wrote:
yegbey01 wrote:
cirrusdragoon wrote:

That is competition. Pure and simple. capitalism . let the best and strongest player win. No one ever said life was fair.


Competition isn't the same as predatory pricing. Airlines compete all around the world. But consumer protection exists for a reason.

When an airline engages in a behaviour that is entails losing money on purpose, and intends to drive its competitor out, only to then raise prices later...that is illegal. You can call it capitalism, but that's not how the world works even in a capitalist economies, especially when you are providing public goods that have a major direct on the health of the economy. Airlines do fall in that category (vs. two restaurants selling burgers and one trying to close the other shop)



1. From the dictionary: "the pricing of goods or services at such a low level that other suppliers cannot compete and are forced to leave the market"

2. From Wikipedia: "Predatory pricing is a pricing strategy in which a company prices a product or service artificially low to gain new customers (loss leads), drive competitors out of the market, or create barriers to entry for new potential competitors"

3. Finally, from this CTV Article about the investigation: https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/federal ... -1.4399685

"Predatory pricing is when a company offers services below break-even costs to hobble a competitor, along with an expectation to recoup losses through future price hikes, according to Competition Bureau guidelines"


In all three definitions of predatory pricing above, Swoops' actions in YHM and particularly in YXX by offering those $1 fares could fit. $1 fares cannot be rationally explained as being a reasonable attempt at offering a competitive promotion as they are obviously drastically below break-even costs.

I agree there's nothing wrong with healthy competition and we'd all pay higher airfares without it. But if what Swoop keeps doing to Flair doesn't fit those above definitions....I guess I'm curious what WOULD be an example of predatory pricing by an airline? Swoop is owned by a much larger, profitable other airline and therefore can absorb losses from $1 fares if successfully does the job (which it did).


Indeed. There's a big difference between this and say supermarkets that have their weekly loss leader special on the front page of their flyer. Loblaws selling raspberries for $1.88 for the week isn't going to put Metro or Sobeys out of business as it represents 1/20,000th of each competitors' respective product offering, while seats represent about 1/10 products (e.g. tickets, checked bags, buy-on-board, cargo, etc.) an airline can sell. While Loblaws is the biggest of the competitors, their market share gap to Metro and Sobeys is waaaaaaaaaaaay smaller than get WestJet/Swoop to Flair gap.

Will be interesting to see what the CTA rules with Swoop's loss leader fares. I agree with Jimbo though that if Swoop are profitable (highly likely), then it'll be more difficult (but not impossible) to prove.
 
jmt18325
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:42 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
No business would move revenue generating assets (newer 737-800’s), from the profitable side of the business (WS), to an allegedly unprofitable side of the business (Swoop).

That is even more the case when the profitable side of the business can’t replace those assets with new airframes, (Max).

Trying to prove Swoop is predatory when it’s profitable will be near impossible.



Now do Air Canada Rouge.
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:32 pm

Consider the following, predatory pricing does not work Because it can’t. The minute a competitor is driven out of the market by such tactics, its assets could be acquired by a new player, possibly at a steep discount. The predator would have to engage in selling below cost yet again, sustaining additional losses. This game of chicken could last indefinitely, until the predator itself had run out of resources. these pricing tactics are not something they teach in business schools, and with good reason.

Some might reply that in order to cut its losses, the predator could restrict its supply. But if it did, the “prey” would be able to step in and make up the difference by offering additional products or services at more normal prices. In other words, this would be a good strategy for driving your customers into the arms of your competitor.

And assuming customers actually believe that current prices will be followed by a steep increase if the “prey” is hounded out of existence, a savvy prey could also propose a long-term contract, which could take the form of a subscription (like a flight pass) or an innovative loyalty program, selling customers price insurance now against even higher prices later. In other words, competitors could base their business model around innovation and customer service, rather than the Competition Act.

The fact of the matter is that even the threat of competition is enough to keep would-be monopolists from jacking up their prices, as long as potential competitors are not barred from entering the market — and the appearance of new entrants like Enerjet proves that, in Canada’s air travel industry, they aren’t.

Selling cheaper than your competitor is the essence of market competition. get over yourself!

To turn this logic on its head and pretend that low prices are somehow unhealthy is an abuse of language, and of consumer welfare, too.

It may be up to the Competition Bureau to determine whether laws and regulations were respected, but the economic justification for those rules is shallow at best.
 
Skywatcher
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:45 pm

If you told me what you wanted Swoops numbers to be I could jig them accordingly. There are so many variables to work with that you can simply add and/or subtract various factors to make it profitable or not depending on what answer you want.
If you want them to be profitable you can just allocate some costs elsewhere.
 
sully66
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:03 pm

Bingo1 wrote:
sully66 wrote:
I sure wish YPA was on their radar. A lot of potential customers from northern sask as well as rural areas who do not want to drive all the way to YXE
Granted they need CATSA facility at YPA, but I'm sure that could be arranged somehow


I would use that service and know very many people that would. With the twinning of HWY 11 the need isn't quite what it was a few years ago but Prince Albert and YXE are still nearly 1.5 hours apart. The business traffic volume from YPA may not be as great as some places in Alberta but the leisure traffic could very well be stronger.



I agree with you. I'm sure a flight a day to either Edmonton or Calgary could easily be supported. Don't forget, there are a lot of smaller towns outside of YPA as well ( Melfort, Tisdale etc where people would rather drive to YPA than to YXE
 
AC183
Posts: 1508
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 1999 10:52 am

Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:33 am

There is a huge difference between fully allocated cost, incremental cost, and sunk costs. If you're not going to sell a seat, a super cheap price and getting any revenue for it can be a win. On the other hand, with the high barriers to entry and highly variable fare structures, there is a very fine line between competitive actions and anti-competitive ones.

I don't have any issue with carriers competing and offering fares to match competitors. To make sure it's not in a predatory manner, I wonder if a mechanism could be developed that prevents carriers from raising fares (perhaps measured by average fare) quicker than a certain rate when competitors leave the market. That wouldn't prevent a deep-pocketed competitor from undercutting, but it would make it much more difficult to make a business case for doing so.
 
Bingo1
Posts: 237
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:12 pm

Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:58 pm

sully66 wrote:
Bingo1 wrote:
sully66 wrote:
I sure wish YPA was on their radar. A lot of potential customers from northern sask as well as rural areas who do not want to drive all the way to YXE
Granted they need CATSA facility at YPA, but I'm sure that could be arranged somehow


I would use that service and know very many people that would. With the twinning of HWY 11 the need isn't quite what it was a few years ago but Prince Albert and YXE are still nearly 1.5 hours apart. The business traffic volume from YPA may not be as great as some places in Alberta but the leisure traffic could very well be stronger.



I agree with you. I'm sure a flight a day to either Edmonton or Calgary could easily be supported. Don't forget, there are a lot of smaller towns outside of YPA as well ( Melfort, Tisdale etc where people would rather drive to YPA than to YXE


You brought up an interesting point about the towns around there helping support YPA air service. You mentioned Melfort and Tisdale but I'd include Nipawin and La Ronge. Also of note is The Pas and Flon Flon. They have their own regional air service but if YPA was added it would be the closest airport with AC or WS service to those two northern Manitoba cities.
YXE currently is the base for much of the northern Saskatchewan fishing and hunting tours. YPA would likely be able to snag some of that seasonal traffic as well.
Planecrzy
 
hollywoodcory
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:29 am

Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:32 pm

Been keeping an eye on WS schedule updates to see if they reduce or cancel any routes due to dropping demand. So far, nothing yet.

CDG resumes on Thursday, and advance bookings are looking good. Too soon to make any judgement on FCO.
 
diverted
Posts: 1293
Joined: Sat May 17, 2014 3:17 pm

Re: The WestJet Thread

Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:00 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
YYCFlier wrote:
It won’t be WS probably as there are a lot more connections in YYC for passengers. I think Link is full in the west and they are looking for CPA in east.


If I were to guess about an East Link partner, I could see PAL getting picked. It seems like Air Georgian is a no-go. Every other option seems like it would be of no interest to the carrier or would step on AC’s toes including:
-Pascan - would they have the interest?
-Voyageur - a wholly-owned subsidiary of Chorus/Jazz...too close to AC?
-Canadian North - post-merger, l think it’s safe to say they have a surplus of turboprop aircraft. However, they rely on AC a lot for feed at YOW & YUL, and to a lesser extent, YEG. Would a WS partnership hurt that relationship?
-Air Inuit and Air Creebec also rely on AC for feed.
-Wasaya?
-EVAS?...AC’s last Tier lll partner.

I can’t see Bearskin being interested.

Who else is there in the east?

A tier lll partner out of YYZ would allow WS to properly re-enter YAM & YSB and serve YQG (finally become year-round...I think they could already do so on a DH4 2x daily), YTS, YYB, YZR and maybe YGK. They would need 5-7 aircraft to handle all this, depending on frequency.



Can't see 5T/7F doing any sort of regional CPA flying. I imagine 5T's handful of Dash-8's will be the first things to go, likely followed by their 2 732's, leaving 13 ATR42's, which should work for their current schedule, even with an aircraft or two down for heavy checks. If you look at their utilization, overall it's quite low. Further to that, if you have seen their payscales, there's a 0% chance they'd do any sort of CPA flying for AC or WS

If anything, I see them focusing more on their core markets, likely including an order for ATR42-600S' at some point, ideally if they can get them in a combi version, to replace their aging -300s/320's, and, in the not too distant future, their -500's, and probably looking into the STC work with vendors such as PEMCO for 737NG Combis once the MAX is flying again and -700/-800 prices come back down to earth. Perhaps if that happens, they'll look to do more charter work down south in the winter, especially if they were to acquire a 738 in a Y189 config.

If anything, I'd have thought WS would bail out Georgian, but that doesn't look like its in the cards
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2837
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: The WestJet Thread

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:03 am

diverted wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
YYCFlier wrote:
It won’t be WS probably as there are a lot more connections in YYC for passengers. I think Link is full in the west and they are looking for CPA in east.


If I were to guess about an East Link partner, I could see PAL getting picked. It seems like Air Georgian is a no-go. Every other option seems like it would be of no interest to the carrier or would step on AC’s toes including:
-Pascan - would they have the interest?
-Voyageur - a wholly-owned subsidiary of Chorus/Jazz...too close to AC?
-Canadian North - post-merger, l think it’s safe to say they have a surplus of turboprop aircraft. However, they rely on AC a lot for feed at YOW & YUL, and to a lesser extent, YEG. Would a WS partnership hurt that relationship?
-Air Inuit and Air Creebec also rely on AC for feed.
-Wasaya?
-EVAS?...AC’s last Tier lll partner.

I can’t see Bearskin being interested.

Who else is there in the east?

A tier lll partner out of YYZ would allow WS to properly re-enter YAM & YSB and serve YQG (finally become year-round...I think they could already do so on a DH4 2x daily), YTS, YYB, YZR and maybe YGK. They would need 5-7 aircraft to handle all this, depending on frequency.



Can't see 5T/7F doing any sort of regional CPA flying. I imagine 5T's handful of Dash-8's will be the first things to go, likely followed by their 2 732's, leaving 13 ATR42's, which should work for their current schedule, even with an aircraft or two down for heavy checks. If you look at their utilization, overall it's quite low. Further to that, if you have seen their payscales, there's a 0% chance they'd do any sort of CPA flying for AC or WS

If anything, I see them focusing more on their core markets, likely including an order for ATR42-600S' at some point, ideally if they can get them in a combi version, to replace their aging -300s/320's, and, in the not too distant future, their -500's, and probably looking into the STC work with vendors such as PEMCO for 737NG Combis once the MAX is flying again and -700/-800 prices come back down to earth. Perhaps if that happens, they'll look to do more charter work down south in the winter, especially if they were to acquire a 738 in a Y189 config.

If anything, I'd have thought WS would bail out Georgian, but that doesn't look like its in the cards


Until YCO and YCB get paved runways (not likely anytime soon), I imagine the “new” 5T will hang onto that pair of 732s for as long as they can. There’s a reason why the “old” 5T didn’t retire all of them. Unlike former jet destination YRB, there’s far higher demand for cargo to YCO & YCB, including taking on cargo the ATR can’t handle, even in freighter config. The other former unpaved jet destination, namely YSR/Nanisivik was closed years ago being replaced by the expanded Arctic Bay, which cannot handle jets.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: The WestJet Thread

Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:47 am

WestJet sent this e-mail to their customers about the COVID-19 outbreak, explaining what they are doing and some changes:

Dear XXXXX,


I am writing you today to provide information regarding the coronavirus (COVID-19) outbreak and what we at WestJet are doing in response.

As a valued WestJet guest, your safety has always been, and remains, our number one priority. We train comprehensively for these scenarios as part of our overall emergency response and stood up a COVID-19 direct response team immediately as the situation began to unfold.

From the onset of the coronavirus, we have been in contact with the Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC), Transport Canada and other agencies around the world to ensure we are aware of, and aligned with, guidance regarding air travel.

There are hundreds of WestJetters across Canada involved in the planning and implementation of our coronavirus response. In addition to the standard aircraft cleaning that has been part of our daily maintenance schedule, we have introduced additional measures to increase the sanitization of our aircraft.

We already disinfect and sanitize our aircraft using industry-approved products and have also introduced hospital-grade Clorox Wipes and Spray to our cleaning processes. These new products are used to clean the galleys, lavatories, tray tables, seat armrests and headrests, seatbelt buckles, the power supply unit panel, overhead bin door latches and lavatory door handles.

In the air, our aircraft are equipped with state-of-the-art HEPA filters which are similar to those used in hospitals. These filters achieve a viral and bacterial removal efficiency of greater than 99.99 per cent. These aircraft also introduce fresh air into the cabin every two to three minutes.

To help you continue to book with confidence, we had already instituted a flexible change policy giving those guests who booked between March 3, 2020 and March 31, 2020 the ability to change their flight without the applicable change fees.

In addition, we are temporarily removing the normal change and cancel restrictions for guests who had previously booked a Basic fare for travel beginning on or before March 31, 2020. More information can be found on the WestJet travel advisory page. If you have any questions regarding your reservations, there are a number of ways to contact us that you can find here. If you booked with a travel agent, please contact them directly.

PHAC has assessed the public health risk associated with coronavirus as low for Canada. To date, there are no known cases where this virus has been transmitted from one person to another on an aircraft. We recognize that this is an evolving story and my commitment is to provide you with up-to-date information as it becomes available. We will continue to post to the WestJet blog which remains the best place to find the most current information.

I hope this gives you confidence in the actions we are taking on your behalf. We remain committed to providing you a safe travel environment and I look forward to welcoming you on board in the near future.



Sincerely,

Ed Sims
President & CEO
WestJet Airlines
 
hollywoodcory
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:29 am

Re: The WestJet Thread

Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:08 pm

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/westjet-inst ... -1.4848113

WS freezing hiring, and considering layoffs in wake of drop in demand. Also mentioned possibly suspending some routes, and is monitoring the situation in Italy in regards to its planned FCO service.
 
AvroLanc
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:40 pm

Re: The WestJet Thread

Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:06 pm

The union representing WestJet flight attendants is expecting layoffs of more than 50 per cent of its staff as the number of flight cancellations. Interested to know which routes, international, US or Domestic. Tough times I feel for all affected.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6673733/coronavirus-westjet-flight-attendant-layoffs/
707, 717, 727, 732, 734, 737 ,738, 7M8, 742, 744, 767, 773, 789.
DC8, 9,10, MD80 ,L1011 ,HSTrident, BAC111, DHComet.
DH8-100, 400, CRJ100,200,700, EM75,90, A310,319,320,321,333
 
User avatar
Acey
Posts: 1125
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Re: The WestJet Thread

Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:43 pm

If it truly is 50%, I would think that suggests cuts from all three of those sectors.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
hollywoodcory
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:29 am

Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:52 am

CDG flights off to a good start, WS9 cancelled due to crew safety in CDG according to expert flyer.

Also still no schedule updates or route suspensions loaded yet.

With Canada about to restrict international flights to certain airports, curious how that could affect their operation, especially if YYC isn’t one of the chosen ones.
 
jimbo737
Posts: 530
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:33 am

This is going to impact ALL carriers, everywhere.

AC has massive international exposure and had daily expenses of $48m in 2019. At this time of year, as summer long haul travel is planned, they’d be expecting to bring in about $50-$53m a day in new bookings. I doubt they did 25% of that over the past 5 days.

WJA has always had better debt ratios and has always had a higher number of days cash reserves on hand than AC.

I foresee both airlines slashing capacity by 50% or more by Monday.

Will AC slash it’s high cost operation in favor of lower cost Rouge, (with AC mainline pilots being laid off, which contracts forbid) or will they slash lower cost Rouge in favor of higher cost mainline, resulting in higher than necessary losses. That’s going to be interesting to watch.
 
YYCFlier
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:42 pm

Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:43 am

hollywoodcory wrote:
CDG flights off to a good start, WS9 cancelled due to crew safety in CDG according to expert flyer.

Also still no schedule updates or route suspensions loaded yet.

With Canada about to restrict international flights to certain airports, curious how that could affect their operation, especially if YYC isn’t one of the chosen ones.


I think YYC will be. Otherwise it punishes WS over AC.
 
North3270
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:25 pm

Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Mar 14, 2020 2:48 am

It shouldn't be ahead of YYZ,YUL or YVR!
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2837
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Mar 14, 2020 3:37 am

YYCFlier wrote:
hollywoodcory wrote:
CDG flights off to a good start, WS9 cancelled due to crew safety in CDG according to expert flyer.

Also still no schedule updates or route suspensions loaded yet.

With Canada about to restrict international flights to certain airports, curious how that could affect their operation, especially if YYC isn’t one of the chosen ones.


I think YYC will be. Otherwise it punishes WS over AC.


In order to satisfy all political interests (i.e. Alberta anger), I think it’s safe to say YYC and the other 3 hubs are a given. It depends on whether the government includes transborder as “international”. If the government does, then I’d expect the 8 preclearance airports, plus maybe YTZ will remain open. Otherwise I’d say it’ll only be the four hubs plus maybe YOW to maintain access to the Capital.
 
YYCFlier
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:42 pm

Re: The WestJet Thread

Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:03 am

North3270 wrote:
It shouldn't be ahead of YYZ,YUL or YVR!


I think it will be all 4 hubs. YOW has no overseas flights now that LHR is suspended. As I like to remind people on the WS thread, YUL is not a WS hub. Closing Montreal to international flights would have zero impact on WS. But massive impact to everyone else of course.

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