TTailedTiger
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Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:49 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
mcdu wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Man that’s sooooooo funny!

You have no idea how unions work.


Then explain how it works contrary to what was written. If this was a first offense Delta will pay for his 28 day rehab at a clinic, he will enter the drunk program with monthly meetings and be returned to the line with regular monitoring.

It is the sad truth unfortunately that decisions like this don’t have the consequences they once had.


What you stated is correct it’s called HIMS and is provided to us by the Union with company acceptance. It takes Months if not years to jump through all the hoops. But you know that, you are a United pilot. Without ALPA and HIMS the pilot would have already been fired, instead of being helped. The company does not care about any of its employees.


The consequences are still what they used to be ALPA cannot save you from the law and prison. Just look at the two United pilots that got busted in Glasgow. If the law determines the pilot is innocent then ALPA will do the right thing and protect the pilots job while providing him the help he needs.


Why is the responsibility of the employer to get you sober? If you don't care about your physical and mental wellbeing then why should they? And these fancy rehab facilities are not cheap and that leads to higher ticket prices. So the passengers are paying the price for your drinking and bad decisions.
 
PhilMcCrackin
Posts: 124
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Re: DL Pilot Pulled from Flight after Alcohol was found

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:34 am

spinotter wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:
spinotter wrote:

I don't know if you are being serious, but is there any legal difference between getting caught in the security line or after pushback? The intention and conduct are the same in both places.


It makes a big difference in terms of him keeping his employment.


But why would that be? The intention is the same no matter where discovered, right?


Alcoholism is considered a disease by the FAA and thus can be "cured". If he had gotten to the cockpit, that's instant termination. Since he didn't, he can go through the HIMS program and earn his way back to the cockpit.
 
art
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Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:55 am

It says on the Fox report: 'He was released from custody several hours later and has not been charged.'

I'm from the UK where if you are suspected of being over the legal limit for alcohol while driving the police breathalise you and if you exceed the permitted limit you are arrested, taken to a police station where you are breath tested again on a larger. more accurate machine (whose analysis is accepted as unchallengeable evidence by the courts). If the result of that test again shows you are in excess of the limit, you are charged.

Since this pilot was taken into custody then released without charge, does that mean he was below the legal limit or do the US police not have machines able to measure blood alcohol levels accurately in a few seconds from a breath test?
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:04 am

art wrote:
It says on the Fox report: 'He was released from custody several hours later and has not been charged.'

I'm from the UK where if you are suspected of being over the legal limit for alcohol while driving the police breathalise you and if you exceed the permitted limit you are arrested, taken to a police station where you are breath tested again on a larger. more accurate machine (whose analysis is accepted as unchallengeable evidence by the courts). If the result of that test again shows you are in excess of the limit, you are charged.

Since this pilot was taken into custody then released without charge, does that mean he was below the legal limit or do the US police not have machines able to measure blood alcohol levels accurately in a few seconds from a breath test?


He must have been below the legal limit at the time of testing at the station because that is the only way a person is walking out without a DUI charge. Every American police station has the accurate machine so that isn't an issue so it doesn't really make sense.

In my state, police officers can give you a DUI on the side of the road from a breathalyzer and let you on your way with a ticket without having to go to a station.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:23 am

art wrote:
It says on the Fox report: 'He was released from custody several hours later and has not been charged.'

I'm from the UK where if you are suspected of being over the legal limit for alcohol while driving the police breathalise you and if you exceed the permitted limit you are arrested, taken to a police station where you are breath tested again on a larger. more accurate machine (whose analysis is accepted as unchallengeable evidence by the courts). If the result of that test again shows you are in excess of the limit, you are charged.

Since this pilot was taken into custody then released without charge, does that mean he was below the legal limit or do the US police not have machines able to measure blood alcohol levels accurately in a few seconds from a breath test?


It might be that he didn't actually take charge of a motor vehicle...an aircraft being a motor vehicle.
 
mcdu
Posts: 1522
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:56 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
mcdu wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Man that’s sooooooo funny!

You have no idea how unions work.


Then explain how it works contrary to what was written. If this was a first offense Delta will pay for his 28 day rehab at a clinic, he will enter the drunk program with monthly meetings and be returned to the line with regular monitoring.

It is the sad truth unfortunately that decisions like this don’t have the consequences they once had.


What you stated is correct it’s called HIMS and is provided to us by the Union with company acceptance. It takes Months if not years to jump through all the hoops. But you know that, you are a United pilot. Without ALPA and HIMS the pilot would have already been fired, instead of being helped. The company does not care about any of its employees.


The consequences are still what they used to be ALPA cannot save you from the law and prison. Just look at the two United pilots that got busted in Glasgow. If the law determines the pilot is innocent then ALPA will do the right thing and protect the pilots job while providing him the help he needs.


You can attach HIMS to the name of the program but who are the members of this elite group. No the pilots that show up on time, Fly their trips safely and do the job they were hired to do?

HIMS is a huge cost program that could be money in the pockets of those that don’t show up to work drunk, don’t drive drive drunk, don’t use drugs etc.

So instead of a pilot having real financial consequences for their actions the rest of the pilot group pays and they get to keep their job and perhaps re-offend as long as they stay in the program. If termination was the consequence there would be much less of a problem in my opinion.
 
slider
Posts: 7407
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Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:57 pm

Innocent until proven guilty does not apply in DUI law. It just doesn't. It is a grossly unconstitutional violation of the Fourth Amendment.

It's long and convoluted to some extent, and largely because the MADD zealots have lobbied hard for this sort of thing, but DUI checkpoints, maximum mandatory first offense criminal charges, all of it, have turned DUI law into gladiator warfare. Back in 1990, SCOTUS ruled in a Michigan case that DUI checkpoints/roadblocks DO constitute a "seizure" in the context of the Fourth Amendment protection against unlawful search and seizure, they ruled that the balance of the public interest (ahh, so abused by the government in a variety of ways, but I digress) justified it.

Furthermore, while cops have to read Miranda rights upon arrest for DWI, they do NOT have to give Miranda warnings before they ask questions about how much they've drank or asking them to take a sobriety or breath test. Due process doesn't require preserving breath samples either, which vary in reliability and have been proven to be wildly varying in many circumstances.

Now, as it pertains to pilots, the circumstances here, the union involvement, and what consequences and such occur, that's a different story. But for motor vehicle operators, you are guilty first, innocent later. And, as it pertains to driving a car, the INTENT to drive is enough, not the act. So you start to encroach on this slippery slope of motive vs actual commission of a crime itself. I don't know if that same thing applies to pilots in any criminal sense, a lawyer would have to wade into that one, but that's why the interpretation of things even in this thread varies.

A great read, if you have time:
https://www.duicenter.com/lectures/exception01.html

For the record, I've never had a DUI, this just happens to be something I'm passionate about, because I am an avowed liberal in the interpretation of the Fourth Amendment and I think it has been trampled upon in many ways. None of us want drunk drivers out there. No question. But the law is the law. It needs to protect everyone.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:51 pm

slider wrote:
Innocent until proven guilty does not apply in DUI law. It just doesn't. It is a grossly unconstitutional violation of the Fourth Amendment.

It's long and convoluted to some extent, and largely because the MADD zealots have lobbied hard for this sort of thing, but DUI checkpoints, maximum mandatory first offense criminal charges, all of it, have turned DUI law into gladiator warfare. Back in 1990, SCOTUS ruled in a Michigan case that DUI checkpoints/roadblocks DO constitute a "seizure" in the context of the Fourth Amendment protection against unlawful search and seizure, they ruled that the balance of the public interest (ahh, so abused by the government in a variety of ways, but I digress) justified it.

Furthermore, while cops have to read Miranda rights upon arrest for DWI, they do NOT have to give Miranda warnings before they ask questions about how much they've drank or asking them to take a sobriety or breath test. Due process doesn't require preserving breath samples either, which vary in reliability and have been proven to be wildly varying in many circumstances.

Now, as it pertains to pilots, the circumstances here, the union involvement, and what consequences and such occur, that's a different story. But for motor vehicle operators, you are guilty first, innocent later. And, as it pertains to driving a car, the INTENT to drive is enough, not the act. So you start to encroach on this slippery slope of motive vs actual commission of a crime itself. I don't know if that same thing applies to pilots in any criminal sense, a lawyer would have to wade into that one, but that's why the interpretation of things even in this thread varies.

A great read, if you have time:
https://www.duicenter.com/lectures/exception01.html

For the record, I've never had a DUI, this just happens to be something I'm passionate about, because I am an avowed liberal in the interpretation of the Fourth Amendment and I think it has been trampled upon in many ways. None of us want drunk drivers out there. No question. But the law is the law. It needs to protect everyone.

MADD cut DUI fatalities and worse crippling injuries.

I'm a libertarian, but was a member of SADD. If you use mind alternating substances, be responsible. Hey, legal marijuana has almost undone the reduction of drunk driving deaths in the states!

I personally see 30+ people toke up to relax before their commute. (Aerospace is in industrial zones and across the street from my office is a dispensary.)


So something new to test for.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
9w748capt
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Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:58 pm

Just curious - which country did this pilot train in?
 
BravoOne
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Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:37 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
He's an ALPA member, he'll be back in the cockpit by the start of next week.

Man that’s sooooooo funny!

You have no idea how unions work.


I am a large fan of (and have been a member in the past) of unions, but I can't stand ALPA's tactics and cult following they have.

Most jobs I've been with the union is used as a helping tool or a crutch to the job. With ALPA it's "union first, company/job second". Maybe ALPA should just start up their own airline.



They kind of did that once. It was called Kiwi and it did not work out so well.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:45 pm

9w748capt wrote:
Just curious - which country did this pilot train in?


I'm not sure what difference that would make, but being a Delta pilot there is a 99.9% chance it was under FAA rules and guidance which clearly spells out the do's and don't drinking and flight operations for numerous fields within the avaition community.
 
slider
Posts: 7407
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Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:04 pm

lightsaber wrote:
slider wrote:
Innocent until proven guilty does not apply in DUI law. It just doesn't. It is a grossly unconstitutional violation of the Fourth Amendment.

It's long and convoluted to some extent, and largely because the MADD zealots have lobbied hard for this sort of thing, but DUI checkpoints, maximum mandatory first offense criminal charges, all of it, have turned DUI law into gladiator warfare. Back in 1990, SCOTUS ruled in a Michigan case that DUI checkpoints/roadblocks DO constitute a "seizure" in the context of the Fourth Amendment protection against unlawful search and seizure, they ruled that the balance of the public interest (ahh, so abused by the government in a variety of ways, but I digress) justified it.

Furthermore, while cops have to read Miranda rights upon arrest for DWI, they do NOT have to give Miranda warnings before they ask questions about how much they've drank or asking them to take a sobriety or breath test. Due process doesn't require preserving breath samples either, which vary in reliability and have been proven to be wildly varying in many circumstances.

Now, as it pertains to pilots, the circumstances here, the union involvement, and what consequences and such occur, that's a different story. But for motor vehicle operators, you are guilty first, innocent later. And, as it pertains to driving a car, the INTENT to drive is enough, not the act. So you start to encroach on this slippery slope of motive vs actual commission of a crime itself. I don't know if that same thing applies to pilots in any criminal sense, a lawyer would have to wade into that one, but that's why the interpretation of things even in this thread varies.

A great read, if you have time:
https://www.duicenter.com/lectures/exception01.html

For the record, I've never had a DUI, this just happens to be something I'm passionate about, because I am an avowed liberal in the interpretation of the Fourth Amendment and I think it has been trampled upon in many ways. None of us want drunk drivers out there. No question. But the law is the law. It needs to protect everyone.

MADD cut DUI fatalities and worse crippling injuries.

I'm a libertarian, but was a member of SADD. If you use mind alternating substances, be responsible. Hey, legal marijuana has almost undone the reduction of drunk driving deaths in the states!

I personally see 30+ people toke up to relax before their commute. (Aerospace is in industrial zones and across the street from my office is a dispensary.)


So something new to test for.

Lightsaber


I’d normally say prove it. But I know the stats are bunk. They moved the goalposts on what constitutes “alcohol related” or “alcohol involved” and the stats bear that out.

http://www.getmadd.com/index.htm

MADD are essentially now neo-prohibitionists, supporting alcohol free zones. They support all forms of legal overreach. And they’ve succeeded in shredding individual liberty and constitutional protection. Examples:
* There is no constitutional right to a jury trial in many states now for DUI, did you know that?
* There is no obligation to preserve evidence (breath especially, even though it’s easy to do) in any state for DUI; the same breath tests continue to have a fatal flaw with the partition ratio of your blood among other things that make it grossly unreliable.
* Retrograde extrapolation: MADD supported the rule that says any test within three hours—THREE HOURS!—that results in a blood-alcohol reading is presumed to be the same at time of driving.
* You are compelled to and cannot refuse testing, a violation of the Fifth Amendment.
* Immediate seizure of your driver’s license in 42 states now, another MADD contribution. Guilt before innocence. And then the morass of hearings, bureaucratic legalese just to even be able to drive.

MADD has gone so far as to work to enact the “Scarlet Letter” law whereby any DUI convict would have to have a bright red license plate that says “DUI” on it… Burglary, murder, rape—you have legal protections. Have a few drinks, perhaps not even be above the .08 limit, doesn’t matter. You’re guilty.
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1626
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Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:31 pm

BravoOne wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
Just curious - which country did this pilot train in?


I'm not sure what difference that would make, but being a Delta pilot there is a 99.9% chance it was under FAA rules and guidance which clearly spells out the do's and don't drinking and flight operations for numerous fields within the avaition community.


I'm just curious because it seems on this forum that whenever there's a crash or incident elsewhere, well it's because they're Ethiopian or Indonesian. So I was under the impression that Murrcan pilots can do no wrong!
 
Passedv1
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:40 am

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:56 pm

Just some thoughts based on what was said...


1st he was detained not arrested. You can be detained based on reasonable suspicion but they must have probable cause for you to be to be arrested.

I would bet money right now that he blew below .04. If he didn't, because of the nature of the charges, there is no.way he is walking out of there. If he blew above .04 we would have heard about it by now.

A police officer does not have to "mirandize"you when he walks up to your car before asking questions because they are trained to ask general questions that doesn't require you to admit guilt. "Have you been drinking tonight?" or :do you know how fast you were going?" You could easily reply "yes, I know how fast I was going, do YOU, officer, know how fast I was going?"

After the beatings stop from your smart ass remark - also know that there is a common misconception about miranda rights, and that is that there is no such thing as Miramda Rights...there are Miranda WAARNINGS. Beimg.Mirandized does nothing to increase your rights simply because they were told to you. You always (almost) have the right to remain silent whemever ANYONE from.the government asks you questions-regardless if you were mirandize or not. It doesn't have to be law enforcement, it also applies to FAA Inspectors.
 
ILNFlyer
Posts: 375
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Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:43 pm

Welcome to your new career as an Uber driver.
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 784
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:12 pm

CNN makes same claim in headline. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/31/us/delta ... index.html

And here's USA Today with a "kicked off plane" headline.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/a ... 875577001/


Thank you for posting those links. The ABC nightly newscast last night stated the same, even interviewing a passenger who witnessed the pilot being removed from the plane, saying that he looked rather disheveled with seriously wrinkled clothing while in contrast, the copilot appeared right out of central casting.

Yes, the casting the first stone comment is particularly apt.
 
VC10DC10
Posts: 654
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:56 am

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:14 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Blockplus wrote:
Arrested, held for a few hours and released. No charges yet. If he is found to not exceed limits then I expect a full apology for releasing his name. I’m sure that would happen... carrying an empty bottle is not proof of anything, and smells are not anything but a step in discovery.

That's the major issue in this case: his name was released without him being proven at fault yet. And, even if he was at fault, why splatter the guy's name all over the news?


People have their names released for alleged crimes all the time. Just because you are a pilot it doesn't make you better than anyone else.


And a good thing it is, too. I don't want to live in a country where arrests for alleged crimes are done in secret--do you?
 
RDUDDJI
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Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: DL Pilot Pulled from Flight after Alcohol was found

Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:05 pm

slider wrote:
In most municipalities, the "intent" to drive constitutes a DUI.

DUI law is the one major and egregious carveout to the US Constitution that exists. Guilty before innocent.


In pre law we actually studied "Michigan Department of State Police v. Sitz" in which the Supreme Court basically decided that "dui checkpoints" are a violation of the 4th amendment, but that they serve the greater good, so they are left up to the State's constitutions. I believe only a few of them (incl MI) ban checkpoints. This is widely referred to as the "DUI exception to the 4th amendment".
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
mcdu
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Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:23 pm

9w748capt wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
Just curious - which country did this pilot train in?


I'm not sure what difference that would make, but being a Delta pilot there is a 99.9% chance it was under FAA rules and guidance which clearly spells out the do's and don't drinking and flight operations for numerous fields within the avaition community.


I'm just curious because it seems on this forum that whenever there's a crash or incident elsewhere, well it's because they're Ethiopian or Indonesian. So I was under the impression that Murrcan pilots can do no wrong!


When it comes to booze it appears US pilots are on equal footing with all those Indian, European and Asian pilots that get popped. The big difference is in the US we tell them it’s not their fault. It’s a disease and we will cure them by spending thousands in a facility. I’ve heard the cure rate is low with many unable to kick the habit but they continue to milk the system by using sick leave and long term disability pay.

You stop the $$ when you get caught and you stop the problem. There is little deterrent because there is little impact on your life. You go to a high dollar rehab facility. You say the right things and join the other drunks at the monthly meetings. Tell each of the other members of your club how wonderful each of you are and you go about your daily life.

Until the unions, company and FAA are willing to terminate offenders this will be a problem forever.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3534
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:32 pm

9w748capt wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
Just curious - which country did this pilot train in?


I'm not sure what difference that would make, but being a Delta pilot there is a 99.9% chance it was under FAA rules and guidance which clearly spells out the do's and don't drinking and flight operations for numerous fields within the avaition community.


I'm just curious because it seems on this forum that whenever there's a crash or incident elsewhere, well it's because they're Ethiopian or Indonesian. So I was under the impression that Murrcan pilots can do no wrong!


Your faulty logic gives your agenda away. Doubt that youre even a pilot but what ever floats your boat.
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:49 pm

mcdu wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
BravoOne wrote:

I'm not sure what difference that would make, but being a Delta pilot there is a 99.9% chance it was under FAA rules and guidance which clearly spells out the do's and don't drinking and flight operations for numerous fields within the avaition community.


I'm just curious because it seems on this forum that whenever there's a crash or incident elsewhere, well it's because they're Ethiopian or Indonesian. So I was under the impression that Murrcan pilots can do no wrong!


When it comes to booze it appears US pilots are on equal footing with all those Indian, European and Asian pilots that get popped. The big difference is in the US we tell them it’s not their fault. It’s a disease and we will cure them by spending thousands in a facility. I’ve heard the cure rate is low with many unable to kick the habit but they continue to milk the system by using sick leave and long term disability pay.

You stop the $$ when you get caught and you stop the problem. There is little deterrent because there is little impact on your life. You go to a high dollar rehab facility. You say the right things and join the other drunks at the monthly meetings. Tell each of the other members of your club how wonderful each of you are and you go about your daily life.

Until the unions, company and FAA are willing to terminate offenders this will be a problem forever.

So addiction recovery isn't a real thing? I'm told pilots who go through HIMS program have an extremely low relapse rate. If you feel aviation coddles substance abusers, maybe you should look at the medical industry. You know, the ones with the drug access and rights to prescribe, who can more easily cause wrongful deaths and complications, and who have million dollar careers with access to top flight rehab clinics.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 578
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:16 pm

mcdu wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
BravoOne wrote:

I'm not sure what difference that would make, but being a Delta pilot there is a 99.9% chance it was under FAA rules and guidance which clearly spells out the do's and don't drinking and flight operations for numerous fields within the avaition community.


I'm just curious because it seems on this forum that whenever there's a crash or incident elsewhere, well it's because they're Ethiopian or Indonesian. So I was under the impression that Murrcan pilots can do no wrong!


When it comes to booze it appears US pilots are on equal footing with all those Indian, European and Asian pilots that get popped. The big difference is in the US we tell them it’s not their fault. It’s a disease and we will cure them by spending thousands in a facility. I’ve heard the cure rate is low with many unable to kick the habit but they continue to milk the system by using sick leave and long term disability pay.

You stop the $$ when you get caught and you stop the problem. There is little deterrent because there is little impact on your life. You go to a high dollar rehab facility. You say the right things and join the other drunks at the monthly meetings. Tell each of the other members of your club how wonderful each of you are and you go about your daily life.

Until the unions, company and FAA are willing to terminate offenders this will be a problem forever.


I have a friend that hasn’t touched a drop of alcohol since he went to HIMS 10 years ago. It saved his marriage, kids, most likely his life and his career. Great pilot and person. no one even knew he had a problem. He still is a good pilot and even better person now that he has kicked the habit.

It’s easy to throw stones when the problem doesn’t affect your inner circle.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:18 pm

We had one HIMS “graduate” at EAL. Actually bought a saloon while in the HIMS program. He became very careful who he drank with until the passengers on a Trump charter recognized on the bus as they guy drunk at the casino a few hours before. Fired.

GF
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1350
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:33 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
mcdu wrote:
9w748capt wrote:

I'm just curious because it seems on this forum that whenever there's a crash or incident elsewhere, well it's because they're Ethiopian or Indonesian. So I was under the impression that Murrcan pilots can do no wrong!


When it comes to booze it appears US pilots are on equal footing with all those Indian, European and Asian pilots that get popped. The big difference is in the US we tell them it’s not their fault. It’s a disease and we will cure them by spending thousands in a facility. I’ve heard the cure rate is low with many unable to kick the habit but they continue to milk the system by using sick leave and long term disability pay.

You stop the $$ when you get caught and you stop the problem. There is little deterrent because there is little impact on your life. You go to a high dollar rehab facility. You say the right things and join the other drunks at the monthly meetings. Tell each of the other members of your club how wonderful each of you are and you go about your daily life.

Until the unions, company and FAA are willing to terminate offenders this will be a problem forever.


I have a friend that hasn’t touched a drop of alcohol since he went to HIMS 10 years ago. It saved his marriage, kids, most likely his life and his career. Great pilot and person. no one even knew he had a problem. He still is a good pilot and even better person now that he has kicked the habit.

It’s easy to throw stones when the problem doesn’t affect your inner circle.


A job does not belong to you. It can and should be taken away from those who are not responsible. Employees who lack self control are a liability to the company. Not only when it comes to safety but also the company's image. There are so many opportunities and resources to seek help on your own that there is no excuse for showing up to work under the influence of alcohol or drugs. The FAA needs to revisit this issue and impose federal regulations that the company and union can't wiggle around.
 
BravoOne
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Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:56 pm

Abusers come in all shapes, sizes and backgrounds. Use to fly with F/O that was fairly quite and reserved. I knew he worked on the airlines HMS committee but I never asked him about it. Turns out that had a previous alcohol problem in his own life and think that was frequently a comon thread through out the the HMS organizations.

One day he failed to show up for a recurrent training session and when they checked the hotel room fearing he may have been injured or had a heart attack, they instead found him passed out drunk. Being that this was not his first offense, he was immediately terminated. A tragic story for sure. Later he told a mutual friend he was gay, so I suspect there were lot of demons running around in his life at that. Former USAF pilot and a good stick.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1175
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:35 pm

VC10DC10 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
That's the major issue in this case: his name was released without him being proven at fault yet. And, even if he was at fault, why splatter the guy's name all over the news?


People have their names released for alleged crimes all the time. Just because you are a pilot it doesn't make you better than anyone else.


And a good thing it is, too. I don't want to live in a country where arrests for alleged crimes are done in secret--do you?

I'm not sure if your comment should be taken as sarcasm or not...
If it was sarcasm, agree with you; if not, wow, just wow...
 
kiowa
Posts: 564
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Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:52 am

It seems like pilots are under a tremendous amount of scrutiny. I would like to see how people in other professions would fare under similar scrutiny. How would surgeons or senators do with something as simple as random drug and alcohol testing. I suspect that the numbers of Delta pilots who do not pass drug and alcohol tests is fairly low.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:53 am

kiowa wrote:
It seems like pilots are under a tremendous amount of scrutiny. I would like to see how people in other professions would fare under similar scrutiny. How would surgeons or senators do with something as simple as random drug and alcohol testing. I suspect that the numbers of Delta pilots who do not pass drug and alcohol tests is fairly low.

We have random testing. So what? Annoying is all.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:33 am

For pilots, the affects even from a low level of consumption of alcohol can be compounded by flying irregular hours, the changes in time zones, how it affects sleep, hangovers, other emotional, mental and physical health issues.

A pilot could work a 'red eye' then a day or so later, have to report for an early morning flight at 5 AM, then a few days later a midday flight. Time zones can compound problems as to natural or personal sleep cycles. Even if cut off alcohol 10 hours before a flight, one's sleep can be affected so in turn can affect one's ability to fly the next day due to it. A pilot could have emotional issues like a marriage or relationship gone bad, personal stress, mental/psychological health issues, physical health issues where might drink as a form of self-medication. Loneliness, as away from family, friends, perhaps for a few days at a time may compound the need, quantity or affects from choosing to drink to excess. These are all explanations - NOT excuses - for a pilot showing up for duty under the defined influence of alcohol

While it is relatively rare for pilots to put themselves in the position where get caught with being under the influence of alcohol when reporting for duty, there is a need for airlines and pilots to reduce the risk at the least to reduce their legal liability but to reduce service disruptions to passengers, public relations and the quality of life of the pilots. Peer pressure, encourage off-duty activities that don't involve or have a culture as to the use of alcohol, reduce the loneliness and personal stress that drive people to use alcohol, schedule pilots so get proper rest, especially working a early or overnight flight. If get caught, fair but firm policies in place so help the person, deal with the underlying issues and not lose the investment in them.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:50 am

BravoOne wrote:

Your faulty logic gives your agenda away.



I would agree that the comments were a little out of order but...


BravoOne wrote:

Doubt that youre even a pilot but what ever floats your boat.



... is that a requirement?
 
slider
Posts: 7407
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Re: DL Pilot Pulled from Flight after Alcohol was found

Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:30 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
slider wrote:
In most municipalities, the "intent" to drive constitutes a DUI.

DUI law is the one major and egregious carveout to the US Constitution that exists. Guilty before innocent.


In pre law we actually studied "Michigan Department of State Police v. Sitz" in which the Supreme Court basically decided that "dui checkpoints" are a violation of the 4th amendment, but that they serve the greater good, so they are left up to the State's constitutions. I believe only a few of them (incl MI) ban checkpoints. This is widely referred to as the "DUI exception to the 4th amendment".


Ah, Sitz...I was trying to recall the case from memory when I was typing my response. Thanks for mentioning it. And yes, that's the landmark exception, which remains one of the most blatant and dangerous erosions of constitutional liberty in our lifetimes. If it can be done for the "greater good" in this instance, when can't it be done?
 
kiowa
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Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:25 pm

lightsaber wrote:
kiowa wrote:
It seems like pilots are under a tremendous amount of scrutiny. I would like to see how people in other professions would fare under similar scrutiny. How would surgeons or senators do with something as simple as random drug and alcohol testing. I suspect that the numbers of Delta pilots who do not pass drug and alcohol tests is fairly low.

We have random testing. So what? Annoying is all.

Lightsaber



I believe you missed the point of my post. I see pilots as way over-regulated compared to other professions, many that do need more supervision.

In response to your post-testing is much more than “annoying” if you are the Delta pilot who gets caught drinking or doing drugs.
 
Planetalk
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Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:19 pm

kiowa wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
kiowa wrote:
It seems like pilots are under a tremendous amount of scrutiny. I would like to see how people in other professions would fare under similar scrutiny. How would surgeons or senators do with something as simple as random drug and alcohol testing. I suspect that the numbers of Delta pilots who do not pass drug and alcohol tests is fairly low.

We have random testing. So what? Annoying is all.

Lightsaber



I believe you missed the point of my post. I see pilots as way over-regulated compared to other professions, many that do need more supervision.

In response to your post-testing is much more than “annoying” if you are the Delta pilot who gets caught drinking or doing drugs.



Plenty of coach drivers go through the same scrutiny on this. I don't think drug testing is over-regulated for someone who wants to be responsible for transporting hundreds of people. hey are plenty of jobs out there that are less well paid and involve far bigger inconveniences. I never get this attitude plots should be exempt from the requirements everyone else face.

Perhaps after the MAX debacle people need to rethink their kneejerk reaction to regulation as a bad thing?

Imagine the regulations are slackened. What do you think happens the first time a pilot is found to have flown a plane drunk and there is an incident. Do you think everyone says, 'ahh never mind, it's worth the risk so the por pilots don't have to be bothered by the horrendous inconvenience of a drug test'? hing is, most people actually want regulation to protect them and would be very upset if it were taken away. They just don't realise it.
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2091
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: DL Pilot Pulled from Flight after Alcohol was found

Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:28 pm

slider wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:
slider wrote:
In most municipalities, the "intent" to drive constitutes a DUI.

DUI law is the one major and egregious carveout to the US Constitution that exists. Guilty before innocent.


In pre law we actually studied "Michigan Department of State Police v. Sitz" in which the Supreme Court basically decided that "dui checkpoints" are a violation of the 4th amendment, but that they serve the greater good, so they are left up to the State's constitutions. I believe only a few of them (incl MI) ban checkpoints. This is widely referred to as the "DUI exception to the 4th amendment".


Ah, Sitz...I was trying to recall the case from memory when I was typing my response. Thanks for mentioning it. And yes, that's the landmark exception, which remains one of the most blatant and dangerous erosions of constitutional liberty in our lifetimes. If it can be done for the "greater good" in this instance, when can't it be done?


Yup. I tend to agree they also serve the greater good. However, where I live they also often post the arrest/ticket stops the next day in the paper. Often there are all kinds of arrests and tickets for things that have nothing to do with drunk driving (i.e. driving on a suspended license, outstanding warrants, etc.). That seems to go beyond what SCOTUS intended IMO...
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2091
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: DL Pilot Pulled from Flight after Alcohol was found

Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:29 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
slider wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:

In pre law we actually studied "Michigan Department of State Police v. Sitz" in which the Supreme Court basically decided that "dui checkpoints" are a violation of the 4th amendment, but that they serve the greater good, so they are left up to the State's constitutions. I believe only a few of them (incl MI) ban checkpoints. This is widely referred to as the "DUI exception to the 4th amendment".


Ah, Sitz...I was trying to recall the case from memory when I was typing my response. Thanks for mentioning it. And yes, that's the landmark exception, which remains one of the most blatant and dangerous erosions of constitutional liberty in our lifetimes. If it can be done for the "greater good" in this instance, when can't it be done?


Yup. I tend to agree with SCOTUS that they also serve the greater good. However, where I live they also often post the arrest/ticket stops the next day in the paper. Often there are all kinds of arrests and tickets for things that have nothing to do with drunk driving (i.e. driving on a suspended license, outstanding warrants, etc.). That seems to go beyond what SCOTUS intended IMO...
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2091
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: DL Pilot Pulled from Flight after Alcohol was found

Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:29 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
slider wrote:

Ah, Sitz...I was trying to recall the case from memory when I was typing my response. Thanks for mentioning it. And yes, that's the landmark exception, which remains one of the most blatant and dangerous erosions of constitutional liberty in our lifetimes. If it can be done for the "greater good" in this instance, when can't it be done?


Yup. I tend to agree with SCOTUS that they also serve the greater good. However, where I live they also often post the arrest/ticket stops the next day in the paper. Often there are all kinds of arrests and tickets for things that have nothing to do with drunk driving (i.e. driving on a suspended license, outstanding warrants, etc.). That seems to go beyond what SCOTUS intended IMO...
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2091
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: DL Pilot Pulled from Flight after Alcohol was found

Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:29 pm

slider wrote:

Ah, Sitz...I was trying to recall the case from memory when I was typing my response. Thanks for mentioning it. And yes, that's the landmark exception, which remains one of the most blatant and dangerous erosions of constitutional liberty in our lifetimes. If it can be done for the "greater good" in this instance, when can't it be done?


Yup. I tend to agree with SCOTUS that they also serve the greater good. However, where I live they also often post the arrest/ticket stops the next day in the paper. Often there are all kinds of arrests and tickets for things that have nothing to do with drunk driving (i.e. driving on a suspended license, outstanding warrants, etc.). That seems to go beyond what SCOTUS intended IMO...
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
kiowa
Posts: 564
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:35 pm

Planetalk wrote:
kiowa wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
We have random testing. So what? Annoying is all.

Lightsaber



I believe you missed the point of my post. I see pilots as way over-regulated compared to other professions, many that do need more supervision.

In response to your post-testing is much more than “annoying” if you are the Delta pilot who gets caught drinking or doing drugs.



Plenty of coach drivers go through the same scrutiny on this. I don't think drug testing is over-regulated for someone who wants to be responsible for transporting hundreds of people. hey are plenty of jobs out there that are less well paid and involve far bigger inconveniences. I never get this attitude plots should be exempt from the requirements everyone else face.

Perhaps after the MAX debacle people need to rethink their kneejerk reaction to regulation as a bad thing?

Imagine the regulations are slackened. What do you think happens the first time a pilot is found to have flown a plane drunk and there is an incident. Do you think everyone says, 'ahh never mind, it's worth the risk so the por pilots don't have to be bothered by the horrendous inconvenience of a drug test'? hing is, most people actually want regulation to protect them and would be very upset if it were taken away. They just don't realise it.



Let me try it this way. Some professions have little to no scrutiny when they certainly should. I have heard of numerous local doctors and surgeons with substance abuse problems. One of my partners told me she reported a Chicago customs agent earlier this year for being drunk. A local cop was in the media for several substance abuse problems that nobody reported for years.

A Delta pilot has so many checks on him or her that it would be very hard to show up in the cockpit drunk. If he or she made it that far, I doubt very much that the culture in the United States would find another pilot that would allow him/ her to fly. I don’t know if that is true in other countries and cultures though.
 
tu204
Posts: 1941
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:27 pm

Is there any more info on whether or not he was actually impaired?

Last mention in the original link to Fox News ks that they are waiting on the toxicology report.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Planetalk
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:12 pm

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:38 pm

kiowa wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
kiowa wrote:


I believe you missed the point of my post. I see pilots as way over-regulated compared to other professions, many that do need more supervision.

In response to your post-testing is much more than “annoying” if you are the Delta pilot who gets caught drinking or doing drugs.



Plenty of coach drivers go through the same scrutiny on this. I don't think drug testing is over-regulated for someone who wants to be responsible for transporting hundreds of people. hey are plenty of jobs out there that are less well paid and involve far bigger inconveniences. I never get this attitude plots should be exempt from the requirements everyone else face.

Perhaps after the MAX debacle people need to rethink their kneejerk reaction to regulation as a bad thing?

Imagine the regulations are slackened. What do you think happens the first time a pilot is found to have flown a plane drunk and there is an incident. Do you think everyone says, 'ahh never mind, it's worth the risk so the por pilots don't have to be bothered by the horrendous inconvenience of a drug test'? hing is, most people actually want regulation to protect them and would be very upset if it were taken away. They just don't realise it.



Let me try it this way. Some professions have little to no scrutiny when they certainly should. I have heard of numerous local doctors and surgeons with substance abuse problems. One of my partners told me she reported a Chicago customs agent earlier this year for being drunk. A local cop was in the media for several substance abuse problems that nobody reported for years.

A Delta pilot has so many checks on him or her that it would be very hard to show up in the cockpit drunk. If he or she made it that far, I doubt very much that the culture in the United States would find another pilot that would allow him/ her to fly. I don’t know if that is true in other countries and cultures though.


I'm not sure a customs agent is really a valid comparison. It seems a logical fallacy to suggest because customs agents, directly responsible for zero lives, aren't checked, we should scrap checks on pilots. Obviously the level of scrutiny is dependent on the direct harm a person can cause in their job.

Maybe surgeons should be tested too. But it seems good to me air travel is ahead of other professions in protecting the public. We should level the playing field upwards, not downward.

And believe me, there are people paid far less than airline pilots who face the same indignities and worse. The passengers right to safe passage vastly outweighs a pilots discomfort providing a sample every now and again.

To put it another way, there is far less regulation covering bus construction than aircraft. Does that mean it's unfair to have so many requirements on planes?
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 578
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:40 am

Planetalk wrote:
kiowa wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
We have random testing. So what? Annoying is all.

Lightsaber



I believe you missed the point of my post. I see pilots as way over-regulated compared to other professions, many that do need more supervision.

In response to your post-testing is much more than “annoying” if you are the Delta pilot who gets caught drinking or doing drugs.



Plenty of coach drivers go through the same scrutiny on this. I don't think drug testing is over-regulated for someone who wants to be responsible for transporting hundreds of people. hey are plenty of jobs out there that are less well paid and involve far bigger inconveniences. I never get this attitude plots should be exempt from the requirements everyone else face.

Perhaps after the MAX debacle people need to rethink their kneejerk reaction to regulation as a bad thing?

Imagine the regulations are slackened. What do you think happens the first time a pilot is found to have flown a plane drunk and there is an incident. Do you think everyone says, 'ahh never mind, it's worth the risk so the por pilots don't have to be bothered by the horrendous inconvenience of a drug test'? hing is, most people actually want regulation to protect them and would be very upset if it were taken away. They just don't realise it.


Who said pilots should be except from testing?? How much money we make means nothing. You are creating a narrative that doesn’t exist! Of course pilots should be tested and held to a higher standard. Pilots have to report DUIs and arrests to the FAA and if you get enough or they think you are a danger they pull your license. It doesn’t have to be aircraft related, most people probably don’t know that.

In order to operate an aircraft a pilot can not be higher than a .02, again a higher standard. You are upset about something that doesn’t exist and appear to be pushing a false agenda.
 
kiowa
Posts: 564
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:19 pm

Planetalk wrote:
kiowa wrote:
Planetalk wrote:


Plenty of coach drivers go through the same scrutiny on this. I don't think drug testing is over-regulated for someone who wants to be responsible for transporting hundreds of people. hey are plenty of jobs out there that are less well paid and involve far bigger inconveniences. I never get this attitude plots should be exempt from the requirements everyone else face.

Perhaps after the MAX debacle people need to rethink their kneejerk reaction to regulation as a bad thing?

Imagine the regulations are slackened. What do you think happens the first time a pilot is found to have flown a plane drunk and there is an incident. Do you think everyone says, 'ahh never mind, it's worth the risk so the por pilots don't have to be bothered by the horrendous inconvenience of a drug test'? hing is, most people actually want regulation to protect them and would be very upset if it were taken away. They just don't realise it.



Let me try it this way. Some professions have little to no scrutiny when they certainly should. I have heard of numerous local doctors and surgeons with substance abuse problems. One of my partners told me she reported a Chicago customs agent earlier this year for being drunk. A local cop was in the media for several substance abuse problems that nobody reported for years.

A Delta pilot has so many checks on him or her that it would be very hard to show up in the cockpit drunk. If he or she made it that far, I doubt very much that the culture in the United States would find another pilot that would allow him/ her to fly. I don’t know if that is true in other countries and cultures though.


I'm not sure a customs agent is really a valid comparison. It seems a logical fallacy to suggest because customs agents, directly responsible for zero lives, aren't checked, we should scrap checks on pilots. Obviously the level of scrutiny is dependent on the direct harm a person can cause in their job.

Maybe surgeons should be tested too. But it seems good to me air travel is ahead of other professions in protecting the public. We should level the playing field upwards, not downward.

And believe me, there are people paid far less than airline pilots who face the same indignities and worse. The passengers right to safe passage vastly outweighs a pilots discomfort providing a sample every now and again.

To put it another way, there is far less regulation covering bus construction than aircraft. Does that mean it's unfair to have so many requirements on planes?


Do customs agents carry loaded weapons? If they do that doesn’t concern you?
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1102
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:44 pm

It would appear that there is a systematic problem with alcohol and pilots.

I propose an increase in the numbers of pilots tested through random testing, and more publicity for the addiction programs to try to get people to come forth voluntarily. All done in concert with the unions and regulatory authorities.

There needs to be a cultural change.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 578
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:49 pm

SteelChair wrote:
It would appear that there is a systematic problem with alcohol and pilots.

I propose an increase in the numbers of pilots tested through random testing, and more publicity for the addiction programs to try to get people to come forth voluntarily. All done in concert with the unions and regulatory authorities.

There needs to be a cultural change.


You have stats to back up this “systematic problem” you claim there is? Iv been flying for a lot of years and have never run across a pilot while at work who wasn’t ready to fly. You would be surprised how many pilots including myself, don’t drink at all.

You want a cultural change for a less than 1% problem?
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1102
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:51 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
It would appear that there is a systematic problem with alcohol and pilots.

I propose an increase in the numbers of pilots tested through random testing, and more publicity for the addiction programs to try to get people to come forth voluntarily. All done in concert with the unions and regulatory authorities.

There needs to be a cultural change.


You have stats to back up this “systematic problem” you claim there is? Iv been flying for a lot of years and have never run across a pilot while at work who wasn’t ready to fly. You would be surprised how many pilots including myself, don’t drink at all.

You want a cultural change for a less than 1% problem?


No, I do not, but based upon the number of incidents the last few years, and then considering that those are only the ones caught red handed.....how many called in sick or were no shows, or simply got away with it?

Sadly, the unions will likely never tell us how many people ask for help. Not that i care about personal identities, but knowing the numbers would help gauge how big the problem is.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13927
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:34 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
It would appear that there is a systematic problem with alcohol and pilots.

I propose an increase in the numbers of pilots tested through random testing, and more publicity for the addiction programs to try to get people to come forth voluntarily. All done in concert with the unions and regulatory authorities.

There needs to be a cultural change.


You have stats to back up this “systematic problem” you claim there is? Iv been flying for a lot of years and have never run across a pilot while at work who wasn’t ready to fly. You would be surprised how many pilots including myself, don’t drink at all.

You want a cultural change for a less than 1% problem?


Systematic problem isn’t the same as pilots being unique. Most highly trained professions have systematic substance abuse (and mental health) problems. Doctors, lawyers, etc. Don’t confuse statements about a systematic problem with singling out pilots.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
User avatar
DL757NYC
Posts: 288
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:07 am

Re: DL Pilot Pulled from Flight after Alcohol was found

Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:43 pm

spinotter wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
The pilot is lucky he didn't make it to the plane and call for a pushback. Otherwise, that could be a DWI.


I don't know if you are being serious, but is there any legal difference between getting caught in the security line or after pushback? The intention and conduct are the same in both places.



Huge difference
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 21237
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: DL Pilot Pulled from Flight after Alcohol was found

Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:34 pm

slider wrote:
DUI law is the one major and egregious carveout to the US Constitution that exists. Guilty before innocent.

Yep, and you are required to give evidence against yourself, and if you do not comply, you are presumed guilty.

dmg626 wrote:
If sitting in ones car, drunk with keys in ignition and engine running then yes, intent. If nowhere near car yet but maybe heading that way then no. If pilot was pinched at security, then I’m sure the Johnny Cochran would be he wasn’t going to get into plane.

In my jurisdiction, just having the key in the ignition is intent. There was a case where someone was in a parking lot "sleeping it off" with the keys in the ignition but the engine off. They gave him a blood test and he was busted for DWI.

TTailedTiger wrote:
People have their names released for alleged crimes all the time. Just because you are a pilot it doesn't make you better than anyone else.

Yep, being arrested goes in to your police record, and that is a public record, like it or not.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
fly4ever78
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:17 pm

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:53 pm

SteelChair wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
It would appear that there is a systematic problem with alcohol and pilots.

I propose an increase in the numbers of pilots tested through random testing, and more publicity for the addiction programs to try to get people to come forth voluntarily. All done in concert with the unions and regulatory authorities.

There needs to be a cultural change.


You have stats to back up this “systematic problem” you claim there is? Iv been flying for a lot of years and have never run across a pilot while at work who wasn’t ready to fly. You would be surprised how many pilots including myself, don’t drink at all.

You want a cultural change for a less than 1% problem?


No, I do not, but based upon the number of incidents the last few years, and then considering that those are only the ones caught red handed.....how many called in sick or were no shows, or simply got away with it?

Sadly, the unions will likely never tell us how many people ask for help. Not that i care about personal identities, but knowing the numbers would help gauge how big the problem is.


Yes, lets gauge the problem. How many fatalities/accidents have occurred due to a drunk airline pilot? And who cares if they called in sick? I'm sure that never happens in any other profession (calling in sick when hungover)? Why don't we just make it mandatory for every job to blow into a tube when you show up to work. Those are some stats I'd like to gauge.
 
Planetalk
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:12 pm

Re: Suspected drunk DL pilot arrested just before flight

Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:22 am

kiowa wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
kiowa wrote:


Let me try it this way. Some professions have little to no scrutiny when they certainly should. I have heard of numerous local doctors and surgeons with substance abuse problems. One of my partners told me she reported a Chicago customs agent earlier this year for being drunk. A local cop was in the media for several substance abuse problems that nobody reported for years.

A Delta pilot has so many checks on him or her that it would be very hard to show up in the cockpit drunk. If he or she made it that far, I doubt very much that the culture in the United States would find another pilot that would allow him/ her to fly. I don’t know if that is true in other countries and cultures though.


I'm not sure a customs agent is really a valid comparison. It seems a logical fallacy to suggest because customs agents, directly responsible for zero lives, aren't checked, we should scrap checks on pilots. Obviously the level of scrutiny is dependent on the direct harm a person can cause in their job.

Maybe surgeons should be tested too. But it seems good to me air travel is ahead of other professions in protecting the public. We should level the playing field upwards, not downward.

And believe me, there are people paid far less than airline pilots who face the same indignities and worse. The passengers right to safe passage vastly outweighs a pilots discomfort providing a sample every now and again.

To put it another way, there is far less regulation covering bus construction than aircraft. Does that mean it's unfair to have so many requirements on planes?


Do customs agents carry loaded weapons? If they do that doesn’t concern you?


Not in most places I've been to no.

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