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SQ32
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:19 am

Any information of monthly one way passenger movement from Wellington to Singapore taking SQ 247/248?
 
777ER
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:17 am

DavidByrne wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
On that note, is there any prospect of RNP-capable 787s operating from Australia to ZQN in the winter peak? The runway length should be enough, but not sure whether the terrain or terminal would cope.

Pretty certain ZQN can only handle upto B737/A321 due to the mountains
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777ER
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:20 am

SQ32 wrote:
Any information of monthly one way passenger movement from Wellington to Singapore taking SQ 247/248?

Sadly this information is next to impossible to gather as I don't believe New Zealand does certain airport to airport movements compared to Australia (via BITRE) which lists load factors for every airline on every route
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With: NZ,SJ,QF,JQ,EK,VA,AA,UA,DL,FL,AC,FJ,SQ,TG,PR
 
a7ala
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:12 am

777ER wrote:
SQ32 wrote:
Any information of monthly one way passenger movement from Wellington to Singapore taking SQ 247/248?

Sadly this information is next to impossible to gather as I don't believe New Zealand does certain airport to airport movements compared to Australia (via BITRE) which lists load factors for every airline on every route


Performance is all in BITRE. Monthly wlg-mel on sq and you can work out how much is transiting to/from SIN versus just Mel local traffic.

Last I looked it was averaging a load factor of 81% for 12-months to May 2019. They have announced a frequency increase to 5pw from Jan.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:12 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ/TG working closer together probably isn’t that likely? I thought of it as well though. I thought HKT would be a good potential option after DPS/SGN, though maybe NZ will find other uses for their fleet like more SIN maybe more HKG/NRT year round KIX.


Out of interest why do you say NZ/TG working together isn't likely?

HKT was beyond the range of the 763's and the prime season for HKT is during our busy summer months, both are large reasons as to why we didn't see it when there was an appetite for long haul leisure routes. Can't see a 789 being used there over existing Asian and American routes

If my source is correct and that TG was exploring HKT-AKL then could an NZ/TG partnership persuade them?
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:41 pm

SQ32 wrote:
Any information of monthly one way passenger movement from Wellington to Singapore taking SQ 247/248?


As others have said, it's almost impossible to tell...

What I do hear and see a lot is

a) The flights are reasonably full WLG-MEL and also MEL-SIN
b) Availability on the flight seems to be wide open
c) They are competitive on both the Tasman and the full journey.

My assumption from this is...

They are working with both Tasman and long haul passengers. If there were enough long-haul passengers they'd likely restrict inventory on Tasman journies..

We covered off before about how many customers will likely terminate in SIN if they continued from MEL over how many may likely use it to reach Europe or other parts of Asia.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:58 pm

777ER wrote:
SQ32 wrote:
Any information of monthly one way passenger movement from Wellington to Singapore taking SQ 247/248?

Sadly this information is next to impossible to gather as I don't believe New Zealand does certain airport to airport movements compared to Australia (via BITRE) which lists load factors for every airline on every route

http://airsoc.com/articles/view/id/5c87 ... queenstown
59 types. 41 countries. 24 airlines.
 
a7ala
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:27 am

NZ6 wrote:
SQ32 wrote:
Any information of monthly one way passenger movement from Wellington to Singapore taking SQ 247/248?


As others have said, it's almost impossible to tell...

What I do hear and see a lot is

a) The flights are reasonably full WLG-MEL and also MEL-SIN
b) Availability on the flight seems to be wide open
c) They are competitive on both the Tasman and the full journey.

My assumption from this is...

They are working with both Tasman and long haul passengers. If there were enough long-haul passengers they'd likely restrict inventory on Tasman journies..

We covered off before about how many customers will likely terminate in SIN if they continued from MEL over how many may likely use it to reach Europe or other parts of Asia.


They cant fill the whole plane with long haul traffic as 1) many of the MEL-SIN seats are taken by the MEL long haul market (some of which will be higher yielding than WLG so makes sense to carry them) and 2) while a thru service is better than a transfer it will never be as good as a non-stop for getting all the long haul market it should. Plus as has been discussed previously the old B777 aircraft lets the route down compared with competing options (watch this space).
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:50 am

a7ala wrote:
They cant fill the whole plane with long haul traffic as 1) many of the MEL-SIN seats are taken by the MEL long haul market (some of which will be higher yielding than WLG so makes sense to carry them)


They can or could....they just don't or can't. Gosh, that's a headache. What I'm saying is, if WLG had such a strong need for long haul flights SQ could restrict MEL joining passengers on this particular flight. They don't because they likely need both markets or more likely, WLG needs MEL more than MEL needs WLG.

a7ala wrote:
2) while a thru service is better than a transfer it will never be as good as a non-stop for getting all the long haul market it should. Plus as has been discussed previously the old B777 aircraft lets the route down compared with competing options (watch this space).


There are so many scenarios here

If your endpoint is SIN (doesn't apply to many) the International transit in MEL is likely preferred over AKL's dismal Domestic to International transit experience BUT does SQ's older 777 product change that vs AKL's A380/77W and 789's?

If you're connecting onwards from SIN how is the transit time in SIN, are there better options or more options even more direct options available from AKL?

If I lived in WLG, I would personally use the older 777 to get to MEL and more likely to get to SIN although it wouldn't take much to get to into AKL. If I was going beyond SIN... I'm looking for the best options and MEL/SYD/BNE/AKL are all transit options I'd happily consider.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:24 am

NZ6 wrote:
a7ala wrote:
They cant fill the whole plane with long haul traffic as 1) many of the MEL-SIN seats are taken by the MEL long haul market (some of which will be higher yielding than WLG so makes sense to carry them)


They can or could....they just don't or can't. Gosh, that's a headache. What I'm saying is, if WLG had such a strong need for long haul flights SQ could restrict MEL joining passengers on this particular flight. They don't because they likely need both markets or more likely, WLG needs MEL more than MEL needs WLG.



Unfortunately for WLG SQ247 SIN-MEL-WLG is the prime overnight service SIN-MEL departing SIN at 20:05 and arriving MEL at 06:30 (before the other overnight options) and so it will always be in demand from the MEL market. Also generally rev/km reduces by distance and so the MEL-SIN market will be more attractive than the WLG-SIN for the same fare classes. SQ has the ability to pick and choose whether they allocate inventory to MEL or WLG on any given flight or class so they will balance what works best for them. Thats not to say WLG doesnt have a large enough market on its own, its just smart economics from a smart airline. You are right WLG does need MEL more than MEL needs WLG - for its very long runway!
 
tealnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:00 am

The tidy solution of course would be a non-stop SIN-WLG service. But we still don’t have a definitive answer on whether the A359 can do it off the current runway.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:24 am

a7ala wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
a7ala wrote:
They cant fill the whole plane with long haul traffic as 1) many of the MEL-SIN seats are taken by the MEL long haul market (some of which will be higher yielding than WLG so makes sense to carry them)


They can or could....they just don't or can't. Gosh, that's a headache. What I'm saying is, if WLG had such a strong need for long haul flights SQ could restrict MEL joining passengers on this particular flight. They don't because they likely need both markets or more likely, WLG needs MEL more than MEL needs WLG.



Unfortunately for WLG SQ247 SIN-MEL-WLG is the prime overnight service SIN-MEL departing SIN at 20:05 and arriving MEL at 06:30 (before the other overnight options) and so it will always be in demand from the MEL market. Also generally rev/km reduces by distance and so the MEL-SIN market will be more attractive than the WLG-SIN for the same fare classes. SQ has the ability to pick and choose whether they allocate inventory to MEL or WLG on any given flight or class so they will balance what works best for them. Thats not to say WLG doesnt have a large enough market on its own, its just smart economics from a smart airline. You are right WLG does need MEL more than MEL needs WLG - for its very long runway!


If SQ247 is the "prime overnight" flight, I can't see SQ giving up too many seats to WLG-SIN passengers given revenue reduces per km........

Therefore, the fact you can still get well-priced seats WLG-SIN and WLG-MEL suggests SQ is struggling?

But I'd have thought the prime flight would have been the daily SQ227 operated by the 77W.

Goes back to the original question which no one can truly answer from the outside... and that is the reason Google and the major GDS suppliers make a tone of money selling data to airlines.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:41 am

If they were struggling would they be expanding to 5 flights a week and saying the loads are at or above their expectations?

It seems SIN-MEL-WLG is doing nicely for SQ. Nothing amazing, but still worth the effort.

As a Wellingtonian of course I want a longer runway and non stop service to Singapore or west coast North America. But that's honestly a nice to have. Right now I'd rather any council investment into the airport instead go into internal public transport and civic square. Transiting via two airports is far from the end of the world.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:50 am

NZ6 wrote:
a7ala wrote:
NZ6 wrote:

They can or could....they just don't or can't. Gosh, that's a headache. What I'm saying is, if WLG had such a strong need for long haul flights SQ could restrict MEL joining passengers on this particular flight. They don't because they likely need both markets or more likely, WLG needs MEL more than MEL needs WLG.



Unfortunately for WLG SQ247 SIN-MEL-WLG is the prime overnight service SIN-MEL departing SIN at 20:05 and arriving MEL at 06:30 (before the other overnight options) and so it will always be in demand from the MEL market. Also generally rev/km reduces by distance and so the MEL-SIN market will be more attractive than the WLG-SIN for the same fare classes. SQ has the ability to pick and choose whether they allocate inventory to MEL or WLG on any given flight or class so they will balance what works best for them. Thats not to say WLG doesnt have a large enough market on its own, its just smart economics from a smart airline. You are right WLG does need MEL more than MEL needs WLG - for its very long runway!


If SQ247 is the "prime overnight" flight, I can't see SQ giving up too many seats to WLG-SIN passengers given revenue reduces per km........

Therefore, the fact you can still get well-priced seats WLG-SIN and WLG-MEL suggests SQ is struggling?

But I'd have thought the prime flight would have been the daily SQ227 operated by the 77W.

Goes back to the original question which no one can truly answer from the outside... and that is the reason Google and the major GDS suppliers make a tone of money selling data to airlines.


FYI from BITRE approximately 44% of the tasman traffic is thru to/from SIN and 56% is WLG-MEL local over last 12-months.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:53 am

DavidByrne wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
That’s true and I was one that didn’t expect to see ICN or TPE, however they are star hubs where KUL isn’t, maybe NZ could work closer with TG and add BKK at some point?

I'd be less confident about BKK as an NZ destination given that any connection traffic would be at the expense of the close partnership with SQ. I'm guessing that the bulk of that traffic would be to the subcontinent and to China. It's interesting to note that TG has twice as many destinations (12) in China as SQ's 6 (though bolstered by Silkair and Scoot) and 18 destinations from BKK to the subcontinent to SQ's 12 (plus Silkair and Scoot again). So as a connection point BKK is not a stupid idea - just that it would be a major commercial realignment and possible disruption for NZ.

Of course it's possible for NZ to open BKK with point-to-point traffic only in mind, but I still think SQ would feel a bit slighted. But as they say, "all's fair in love and war, um business".


I am a Chinese myself, and to be fully honest, due to the limited knowledge that many Chinese travellers know regarding flight transfers, BKK, though feasible, would not be their first choice.
To be fully honest, unless the reputation is absolutely atrocious, many Chinese tend to transfer in places with some degree of Chinese service (greater China+Singapore) due to limited English literacy.
And as it turns out, both China Souther and Cathay Pacific offer flights to AKL and CHC, at a reasonable price (else they hop on HSR for the one departing SZX for that heavily subsidized one operated by Hainan Airlines).
With connecting capabilities from both of them and fairly low fares, there is, at best, marginal need for transfer in SIN (for high frequency and nonstop to Canberra), not to mention BKK. Coupled with Bangkok's reputation as a first-time international tour destination, unless fares are thrown out for next to free, no Chinese (statistically significant amount that is) would utilize BKK as a transfer airport... China have a rare open sky agreement with Australia, and there are already excess supply, for forget most international transfers.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:35 am

777ER wrote:
Pretty certain ZQN can only handle upto B737/A321 due to the mountains


I had a look at the arrival and departure charts there is nothing specific which a wide body would not be able to do.

The runway is short for a wide body, only 1777m

However going into more detail I saw the rescues and fire fighting was only category 6, which is limited to a fuselage length on 39 meters. That rules out the A321, 737-8/737-8MAX and larger.

The maximum aircraft wheelbase on the A3/A4 taxiways from the runway is 18 meters.
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NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:06 am

a7ala wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
a7ala wrote:

Unfortunately for WLG SQ247 SIN-MEL-WLG is the prime overnight service SIN-MEL departing SIN at 20:05 and arriving MEL at 06:30 (before the other overnight options) and so it will always be in demand from the MEL market. Also generally rev/km reduces by distance and so the MEL-SIN market will be more attractive than the WLG-SIN for the same fare classes. SQ has the ability to pick and choose whether they allocate inventory to MEL or WLG on any given flight or class so they will balance what works best for them. Thats not to say WLG doesnt have a large enough market on its own, its just smart economics from a smart airline. You are right WLG does need MEL more than MEL needs WLG - for its very long runway!


If SQ247 is the "prime overnight" flight, I can't see SQ giving up too many seats to WLG-SIN passengers given revenue reduces per km........

Therefore, the fact you can still get well-priced seats WLG-SIN and WLG-MEL suggests SQ is struggling?

But I'd have thought the prime flight would have been the daily SQ227 operated by the 77W.

Goes back to the original question which no one can truly answer from the outside... and that is the reason Google and the major GDS suppliers make a tone of money selling data to airlines.


FYI from BITRE approximately 44% of the tasman traffic is thru to/from SIN and 56% is WLG-MEL local over last 12-months.


Can you share the link and page of where you're reading this from?
 
Unclekoru
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:22 am

Announcement from SQ, A350 into WLG commencing 1 November.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/11511238 ... wellington
It sounds like english, but I can't understand a word you're saying
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:30 am

NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ/TG working closer together probably isn’t that likely? I thought of it as well though. I thought HKT would be a good potential option after DPS/SGN, though maybe NZ will find other uses for their fleet like more SIN maybe more HKG/NRT year round KIX.


Out of interest why do you say NZ/TG working together isn't likely?

HKT was beyond the range of the 763's and the prime season for HKT is during our busy summer months, both are large reasons as to why we didn't see it when there was an appetite for long haul leisure routes. Can't see a 789 being used there over existing Asian and American routes

If my source is correct and that TG was exploring HKT-AKL then could an NZ/TG partnership persuade them?


I guess with the SQ JV BKK is easily served via SIN, however they have added ICN/TPE and BKK must be about the last major star hub they don’t serve in Asia?

HKT beyond the range of the 763? I’d have thought it was shorter than PVG which the 763s served. True re the season although In that regard in surprised DPS/SGN didn’t fall into the same category. However it is true that the long haul fleet is better used in NW.

TG doing HKT-AKL is odd, they hub through BKK and serve very few long hauls ex HKT, AKL would have been a bit of an odd add imo, they don’t serve Australia ex HKT. You never know what a closer alliance might do with NZ/TG.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:38 am

Unclekoru wrote:
Announcement from SQ, A350 into WLG commencing 1 November.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/11511238 ... wellington


According to that it’s the long haul A359 with 3 classes.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:30 am

Re BITRE 44% WLG-MEL-SIN traffic... But how do you know those MEL-SIN pax are on the ex WLG flight?
My understanding is transit pax are not included in BITRE stats. Probably the best example IIRC is to look at UTA loads ex SYD in the 90's- there was only one CDG flight/week that always arrived full from NOU- but you wouldn't know it looking at BITRE.
 
a7ala
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:40 am

eta unknown wrote:
Re BITRE 44% WLG-MEL-SIN traffic... But how do you know those MEL-SIN pax are on the ex WLG flight?
My understanding is transit pax are not included in BITRE stats. Probably the best example IIRC is to look at UTA loads ex SYD in the 90's- there was only one CDG flight/week that always arrived full from NOU- but you wouldn't know it looking at BITRE.


Ive been through this before previously on this forum. You need to combine two datasets. The "airline by country and port" report gives the WLG-MEL local traffic only. The "seat utilisation factor" report gives the total flow on SQ between Australia and New Zealand including the thru traffic - given WLG-MEL-SIN is the only Tasman flight its all the traffic. Taking one from the other gives the thru pax.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:40 am

a7ala wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
Re BITRE 44% WLG-MEL-SIN traffic... But how do you know those MEL-SIN pax are on the ex WLG flight?
My understanding is transit pax are not included in BITRE stats. Probably the best example IIRC is to look at UTA loads ex SYD in the 90's- there was only one CDG flight/week that always arrived full from NOU- but you wouldn't know it looking at BITRE.


Ive been through this before previously on this forum. You need to combine two datasets. The "airline by country and port" report gives the WLG-MEL local traffic only. The "seat utilisation factor" report gives the total flow on SQ between Australia and New Zealand including the thru traffic - given WLG-MEL-SIN is the only Tasman flight its all the traffic. Taking one from the other gives the thru pax.


You're referring to this;

Tables 1 and 2 show the country of the relevant uplift or discharge port served by that
airline. For example, traffic uplifted/discharged between Sydney and Singapore by
British Airways would be shown as Singapore traffic in Tables 1 and 2.
7. Table 3 shows figures for the country of service (or route) for each airline and therefore
may not equate to the data in Tables 1 and 2. For example, the British Airways UK
service identified in Table 3 could include passengers uplifted or discharged in
Singapore as well as the UK; these passengers would be shown individually under those
countries in Tables 1 and 2. The difference in treatment of data between Tables 1 and
2 and Table 3 is necessary in order to work out a meaningful Seat Utilisation figure for
Table 3.
Figures shown in Table 3 may include total traffic into and out of Australia for airlines
that fly through Australia (also necessary in order to work out a meaningful Seat
Utilisation figure). Therefore, figures in Table 3 may not equate to figures in Tables 1
and 2. For example, passengers carried by Qantas Airways from New Zealand via
Australia to the UK will be included in Table 3 but will not be included in Tables 1 or 2
as these passengers were not uplifted/discharged in Australia.


But there's so not absolute clarity on the exact numbers of revenue passengers flying WLG-SIN on SQ.
 
DavidJ08
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:09 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
According to that it’s the long haul A359 with 3 classes.

Can confirm Seat Selection (on my mid-November booking on SQ247 - a seat change notification came through shortly after the A350 announcement email) is showing long haul A359 also.
 
a7ala
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:17 am

NZ6 wrote:
But there's so not absolute clarity on the exact numbers of revenue passengers flying WLG-SIN on SQ.


Yes there is. Eg. Jan19 Airline Country by Port says WLG-MEL on SQ was 5,000 pax. This is just the local traffic. Then Jan19 seat utilisaion singapore airlines to country New Zealand says 8,431 pax on 9,044 seats. This is the total pax carried on WLG-MEL sector (93% LF), The difference 3,431 pax is the thru traffic.
 
Some1Somewhere
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:09 am

zeke wrote:
777ER wrote:
Pretty certain ZQN can only handle upto B737/A321 due to the mountains


I had a look at the arrival and departure charts there is nothing specific which a wide body would not be able to do.

The runway is short for a wide body, only 1777m

However going into more detail I saw the rescues and fire fighting was only category 6, which is limited to a fuselage length on 39 meters. That rules out the A321, 737-8/737-8MAX and larger.

The maximum aircraft wheelbase on the A3/A4 taxiways from the runway is 18 meters.

This doesn't seem feasible, as both Qantas and Virgin operate the 738 into Queenstown?

Perhaps you mean 739?

It does appear that airports may be downgraded one category if they don't see the largest aircraft much.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:27 am

a7ala wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
But there's so not absolute clarity on the exact numbers of revenue passengers flying WLG-SIN on SQ.


Yes there is. Eg. Jan19 Airline Country by Port says WLG-MEL on SQ was 5,000 pax. This is just the local traffic. Then Jan19 seat utilisaion singapore airlines to country New Zealand says 8,431 pax on 9,044 seats. This is the total pax carried on WLG-MEL sector (93% LF), The difference 3,431 pax is the thru traffic.


That's not correct.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:43 am

zeke wrote:
777ER wrote:
Pretty certain ZQN can only handle upto B737/A321 due to the mountains


I had a look at the arrival and departure charts there is nothing specific which a wide body would not be able to do.

The runway is short for a wide body, only 1777m

However going into more detail I saw the rescues and fire fighting was only category 6, which is limited to a fuselage length on 39 meters. That rules out the A321, 737-8/737-8MAX and larger.

The maximum aircraft wheelbase on the A3/A4 taxiways from the runway is 18 meters.

NZ has flown the 321NEO to ZQN on test runs, so I guess there is interest (albeit not immediate) in potentially using that plane to ZQN in the future.

Cheers,

C.
 
a7ala
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:52 am

NZ6 wrote:
a7ala wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
But there's so not absolute clarity on the exact numbers of revenue passengers flying WLG-SIN on SQ.


Yes there is. Eg. Jan19 Airline Country by Port says WLG-MEL on SQ was 5,000 pax. This is just the local traffic. Then Jan19 seat utilisaion singapore airlines to country New Zealand says 8,431 pax on 9,044 seats. This is the total pax carried on WLG-MEL sector (93% LF), The difference 3,431 pax is the thru traffic.


That's not correct.


Explain...
 
Kylow
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:01 pm

NZ321 wrote:
dhaliwal wrote:
the MH crew are only too aware of it and I find, usually subtly apologetic.

Was on this flight May of this year.
The crew actually told me to take my complain straight to management, I personally think the crew are quite fed up.
 
tu2130
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:53 am

Hey guys, Jetstar is pulling out Hawkes Bay Airport,
they say, New Plymouth, other services they have for domestic airports could be possibly affected.
Air New Zealand. Proud to fly.
 
777ER
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:04 am

tu2130 wrote:
Hey guys, Jetstar is pulling out Hawkes Bay Airport,
they say, New Plymouth, other services they have for domestic airports could be possibly affected.

Source for this rumour?
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planemanofnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:20 pm

777ER wrote:
tu2130 wrote:
Hey guys, Jetstar is pulling out Hawkes Bay Airport,
they say, New Plymouth, other services they have for domestic airports could be possibly affected.

Source for this rumour?

"Speculation is swirling that Jetstar may stop regional services, including Hawke's Bay, after it was revealed the carrier is making a loss on provincial services."

So no confirmation - just speculation and rumour, at this stage.

See: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-t ... d=12261201.

Cheers,

C.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:55 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
777ER wrote:
tu2130 wrote:
Hey guys, Jetstar is pulling out Hawkes Bay Airport,
they say, New Plymouth, other services they have for domestic airports could be possibly affected.

Source for this rumour?

"Speculation is swirling that Jetstar may stop regional services, including Hawke's Bay, after it was revealed the carrier is making a loss on provincial services."

So no confirmation - just speculation and rumour, at this stage.

See: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-t ... d=12261201.

Cheers,

C.

Thank you. Just as I suspected - a rumour and nothing confirmed.
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zkncj
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:59 am

777ER wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
777ER wrote:
Source for this rumour?

"Speculation is swirling that Jetstar may stop regional services, including Hawke's Bay, after it was revealed the carrier is making a loss on provincial services."

So no confirmation - just speculation and rumour, at this stage.

See: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-t ... d=12261201.

Cheers,

C.

Thank you. Just as I suspected - a rumour and nothing confirmed.


Think all of the speculation was from the recent Qantas results - which pretty much showed that Jetstar doesn't make money on there New Zealand routes.


Also time for the Qantas group to re-think the New Zealand staggery - which why by the sounds of it changes are on the cards.

They might bet better rolling back to the Qantas brand within New Zealand, and provide quality over supper cheap fares.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:47 am

zkncj wrote:
777ER wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
"Speculation is swirling that Jetstar may stop regional services, including Hawke's Bay, after it was revealed the carrier is making a loss on provincial services."

So no confirmation - just speculation and rumour, at this stage.

See: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-t ... d=12261201.

Cheers,

C.

Thank you. Just as I suspected - a rumour and nothing confirmed.


Think all of the speculation was from the recent Qantas results - which pretty much showed that Jetstar doesn't make money on there New Zealand routes.


Also time for the Qantas group to re-think the New Zealand staggery - which why by the sounds of it changes are on the cards.

They might bet better rolling back to the Qantas brand within New Zealand, and provide quality over supper cheap fares.



You are right re speculation, is that the first time it’s been said that JQ regional doesn’t make money in NZ? The jet service wasn’t mentioned was it? Did they recently take 2 A320s out of NZ?

What changes could they make? QF mainline seems to go against their strategy higher costs etc, and QF codeshare with NZ now domestically, I really couldn’t see the point of QF being here, does it make sense for JQ to remain being part off QF?
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:35 am

zkncj wrote:
777ER wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
"Speculation is swirling that Jetstar may stop regional services, including Hawke's Bay, after it was revealed the carrier is making a loss on provincial services."

So no confirmation - just speculation and rumour, at this stage.

See: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-t ... d=12261201.

Cheers,

C.

Thank you. Just as I suspected - a rumour and nothing confirmed.


Think all of the speculation was from the recent Qantas results - which pretty much showed that Jetstar doesn't make money on there New Zealand routes.


Also time for the Qantas group to re-think the New Zealand staggery - which why by the sounds of it changes are on the cards.

They might bet better rolling back to the Qantas brand within New Zealand, and provide quality over supper cheap fares.

There’s 2 sides to that coin...
1) Qantas (Kangaroo) isn’t a natural choice for kiwis being obviously Australian vs Jetstar which is more neutral despite being owned the same and having the appearance/appeal of looking cheaper by being a LCC.
2) Conversely, JQ doesn’t appeal to business travelers or people with a reasonable amount of money as it has a reputation as being budget and unreliable.

One option I guess would be to actually call in Qantas - Jetconnect (since they will be who operates it) or Qantas -NZ to try to capture both sides of that coin. I would think it would make sense to drop the whole JQ regional operation and abuse a jet on one or two routes (AKL-NPE-CHC perhaps, maybe AKL-NSN) gives them a bit more coverage than just AKL/WLG/CHC/ZQN... that is provided the airports can handle the aircraft etc.
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ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:58 am

Zkpilot wrote:
zkncj wrote:
777ER wrote:
Thank you. Just as I suspected - a rumour and nothing confirmed.


Think all of the speculation was from the recent Qantas results - which pretty much showed that Jetstar doesn't make money on there New Zealand routes.


Also time for the Qantas group to re-think the New Zealand staggery - which why by the sounds of it changes are on the cards.

They might bet better rolling back to the Qantas brand within New Zealand, and provide quality over supper cheap fares.

There’s 2 sides to that coin...
1) Qantas (Kangaroo) isn’t a natural choice for kiwis being obviously Australian vs Jetstar which is more neutral despite being owned the same and having the appearance/appeal of looking cheaper by being a LCC.
2) Conversely, JQ doesn’t appeal to business travelers or people with a reasonable amount of money as it has a reputation as being budget and unreliable.

One option I guess would be to actually call in Qantas - Jetconnect (since they will be who operates it) or Qantas -NZ to try to capture both sides of that coin. I would think it would make sense to drop the whole JQ regional operation and abuse a jet on one or two routes (AKL-NPE-CHC perhaps, maybe AKL-NSN) gives them a bit more coverage than just AKL/WLG/CHC/ZQN... that is provided the airports can handle the aircraft etc.


What’s the point of that though? I’d have thought they struggle with frequency or lack of both on the trunk jet routes and regionally along with an often poor OTP. Currently both trunk and regional are quite low frequency.

One thing I’d expect with the AA JV is AKl-DFW on AA while QF would downgrade SYD-DFW to a 789, any non SYD pax routed through AKL, so I’d that was the case is there any scope for anything more domestically?
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:13 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
zkncj wrote:

Think all of the speculation was from the recent Qantas results - which pretty much showed that Jetstar doesn't make money on there New Zealand routes.


Also time for the Qantas group to re-think the New Zealand staggery - which why by the sounds of it changes are on the cards.

They might bet better rolling back to the Qantas brand within New Zealand, and provide quality over supper cheap fares.

There’s 2 sides to that coin...
1) Qantas (Kangaroo) isn’t a natural choice for kiwis being obviously Australian vs Jetstar which is more neutral despite being owned the same and having the appearance/appeal of looking cheaper by being a LCC.
2) Conversely, JQ doesn’t appeal to business travelers or people with a reasonable amount of money as it has a reputation as being budget and unreliable.

One option I guess would be to actually call in Qantas - Jetconnect (since they will be who operates it) or Qantas -NZ to try to capture both sides of that coin. I would think it would make sense to drop the whole JQ regional operation and abuse a jet on one or two routes (AKL-NPE-CHC perhaps, maybe AKL-NSN) gives them a bit more coverage than just AKL/WLG/CHC/ZQN... that is provided the airports can handle the aircraft etc.


What’s the point of that though? I’d have thought they struggle with frequency or lack of both on the trunk jet routes and regionally along with an often poor OTP. Currently both trunk and regional are quite low frequency.

One thing I’d expect with the AA JV is AKl-DFW on AA while QF would downgrade SYD-DFW to a 789, any non SYD pax routed through AKL, so I’d that was the case is there any scope for anything more domestically?

I think they are making money on the jet routes, just not the regional routes. That said the regional routes do help boost numbers on the jet routes which is why still flying to some of them (the most remote ones perhaps) but with a limited frequency might work. They’d probably be able to boost main trunk routes a bit if AKL-DFW started especially with QF rather than JQ.
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:18 am

Zkpilot wrote:
There’s 2 sides to that coin...
1) Qantas (Kangaroo) isn’t a natural choice for kiwis being obviously Australian vs Jetstar which is more neutral despite being owned the same and having the appearance/appeal of looking cheaper by being a LCC.
2) Conversely, JQ doesn’t appeal to business travelers or people with a reasonable amount of money as it has a reputation as being budget and unreliable.

One option I guess would be to actually call in Qantas - Jetconnect (since they will be who operates it) or Qantas -NZ to try to capture both sides of that coin. I would think it would make sense to drop the whole JQ regional operation and abuse a jet on one or two routes (AKL-NPE-CHC perhaps, maybe AKL-NSN) gives them a bit more coverage than just AKL/WLG/CHC/ZQN... that is provided the airports can handle the aircraft etc.


"Qantas New Zealand" was tired back in the late 90's as an very short-lived franchise (Tasman Pacific Airlines)
Image

Who then later on was replaced by Qantas mainline (then turned into JetConnect) with ex AN 733's (remember those old 733s that barely left on time).

The Qantas group defiantly has had an rocky last 20 years in the New Zealand Domestic market, from an Franchisee that was chased out of town by NZ, to there own operation that had OTP issues then followed up JQ as we know it today that had allot of problems fitting into the New Zealand market. Remember how badly JQ's image was hurt in there first year?

An option could be for Qantas to bring the Qantas Link brand to New Zealand (they have recently taken on ex-JQ A320s in WA), repaint the A320's up with Jetconnect Crew as Qantas Link.

With say the trunk routes operating on the hour (AKL-WLG, AKL-CHC, CHC-WLG) then outside of peak fill in the gaps with the likes of AKL-ZQN/DUD.
 
777ER
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:51 am

zkncj wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
There’s 2 sides to that coin...
1) Qantas (Kangaroo) isn’t a natural choice for kiwis being obviously Australian vs Jetstar which is more neutral despite being owned the same and having the appearance/appeal of looking cheaper by being a LCC.
2) Conversely, JQ doesn’t appeal to business travelers or people with a reasonable amount of money as it has a reputation as being budget and unreliable.

One option I guess would be to actually call in Qantas - Jetconnect (since they will be who operates it) or Qantas -NZ to try to capture both sides of that coin. I would think it would make sense to drop the whole JQ regional operation and abuse a jet on one or two routes (AKL-NPE-CHC perhaps, maybe AKL-NSN) gives them a bit more coverage than just AKL/WLG/CHC/ZQN... that is provided the airports can handle the aircraft etc.


"Qantas New Zealand" was tired back in the late 90's as an very short-lived franchise (Tasman Pacific Airlines)
Image

Who then later on was replaced by Qantas mainline (then turned into JetConnect) with ex AN 733's (remember those old 733s that barely left on time).

The Qantas group defiantly has had an rocky last 20 years in the New Zealand Domestic market, from an Franchisee that was chased out of town by NZ, to there own operation that had OTP issues then followed up JQ as we know it today that had allot of problems fitting into the New Zealand market. Remember how badly JQ's image was hurt in there first year?

An option could be for Qantas to bring the Qantas Link brand to New Zealand (they have recently taken on ex-JQ A320s in WA), repaint the A320's up with Jetconnect Crew as Qantas Link.

With say the trunk routes operating on the hour (AKL-WLG, AKL-CHC, CHC-WLG) then outside of peak fill in the gaps with the likes of AKL-ZQN/DUD.

New Zealand needs a second main operator cause NZ would exploit the profit potential. Thankfully it doesn't sound like the main trunk routes are at risk but then again TT pose a big risk to NZ if JQ/QF withdrawal here.

JQ really do need to lift their game here IMHO. Yes QF group have NZ codesharing but how about an hourly service using B717/F100/A220s on AKL-WLG, AKL-CHC and WLG-CHC.

Regional operations are benefitting the local economys and would hurt if removed. JQ doesn't have experience in Link operations compared to QF and maybe QF Link would be better suited. Sadly I can't see QF/JQ changing to a better operation here. VA/TT I see having a better chance of fighting NZ
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zkncj
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:03 am

777ER wrote:
JQ really do need to lift their game here IMHO. Yes QF group have NZ codesharing but how about an hourly service using B717/F100/A220s on AKL-WLG, AKL-CHC and WLG-CHC.


Could the likes of the 717/F100/A220 operate into the likes of NSN and NPE, if they had AVSEC added?

An fleet of 5x 100 Seaters could do pretty well within New Zealand, all use use on the main trunk durring peak then off peak do some regional routes.
 
Sylus
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:06 am

777ER wrote:
zkncj wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
There’s 2 sides to that coin...
1) Qantas (Kangaroo) isn’t a natural choice for kiwis being obviously Australian vs Jetstar which is more neutral despite being owned the same and having the appearance/appeal of looking cheaper by being a LCC.
2) Conversely, JQ doesn’t appeal to business travelers or people with a reasonable amount of money as it has a reputation as being budget and unreliable.

One option I guess would be to actually call in Qantas - Jetconnect (since they will be who operates it) or Qantas -NZ to try to capture both sides of that coin. I would think it would make sense to drop the whole JQ regional operation and abuse a jet on one or two routes (AKL-NPE-CHC perhaps, maybe AKL-NSN) gives them a bit more coverage than just AKL/WLG/CHC/ZQN... that is provided the airports can handle the aircraft etc.


"Qantas New Zealand" was tired back in the late 90's as an very short-lived franchise (Tasman Pacific Airlines)
Image

Who then later on was replaced by Qantas mainline (then turned into JetConnect) with ex AN 733's (remember those old 733s that barely left on time).

The Qantas group defiantly has had an rocky last 20 years in the New Zealand Domestic market, from an Franchisee that was chased out of town by NZ, to there own operation that had OTP issues then followed up JQ as we know it today that had allot of problems fitting into the New Zealand market. Remember how badly JQ's image was hurt in there first year?

An option could be for Qantas to bring the Qantas Link brand to New Zealand (they have recently taken on ex-JQ A320s in WA), repaint the A320's up with Jetconnect Crew as Qantas Link.

With say the trunk routes operating on the hour (AKL-WLG, AKL-CHC, CHC-WLG) then outside of peak fill in the gaps with the likes of AKL-ZQN/DUD.

New Zealand needs a second main operator cause NZ would exploit the profit potential. Thankfully it doesn't sound like the main trunk routes are at risk but then again TT pose a big risk to NZ if JQ/QF withdrawal here.

JQ really do need to lift their game here IMHO. Yes QF group have NZ codesharing but how about an hourly service using B717/F100/A220s on AKL-WLG, AKL-CHC and WLG-CHC.

Regional operations are benefitting the local economys and would hurt if removed. JQ doesn't have experience in Link operations compared to QF and maybe QF Link would be better suited. Sadly I can't see QF/JQ changing to a better operation here. VA/TT I see having a better chance of fighting NZ



Or perhaps TT could take over all those ex VA ATR's in NSN and use them for the same routes. ATR is bigger so probably better to run as a LCC vs Q300 plus they could learn from JQ regional's mistakes. Use already existing Swissport ground crews in the current regional JQ ports plus some new ones (IVC and HLZ). Maybe could even be used to feed some VA trans tas services....
 
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SQ32
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:10 am

Based on Airbus data, A359 can do SIN-WLG easily as the runway can accomodate TOW of 231 t.

The business of MEL-WLG is good. It takes sometime for SQ to build up SIN-WLG.

We will see SIN-WLG well before we see 2.4km WLG runway. It could be as early as 3 years time.

tealnz wrote:
The tidy solution of course would be a non-stop SIN-WLG service. But we still don’t have a definitive answer on whether the A359 can do it off the current runway.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:20 am

SQ32 wrote:
Based on Airbus data, A359 can do SIN-WLG easily as the runway can accomodate TOW of 231 t.

Is it more complex than just that though? For example, what does WLG's wind and rain do to that capability?

Cheers,

C.
 
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zeke
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:35 am

Some1Somewhere wrote:
This doesn't seem feasible, as both Qantas and Virgin operate the 738 into Queenstown?

Perhaps you mean 739?

It does appear that airports may be downgraded one category if they don't see the largest aircraft much.


Maybe they are operating under and exemption, the 737-8 is 39.47m long which just puts it into category 7.

The AIP says

"AD Category for Fire Fighting

CAT 6 provided 20 mins either side of all aircraft engaged in regular air transport operations. Other times by arrangement with Queenstown Airport Rescue Fire. Tel (03) 450 9058"

Category 6 is up to 39 meters and 5 m fuselage diameter

http://code7700.com/arff.htm
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zkncj
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:08 am

Sylus wrote:
Or perhaps TT could take over all those ex VA ATR's in NSN and use them for the same routes. ATR is bigger so probably better to run as a LCC vs Q300 plus they could learn from JQ regional's mistakes. Use already existing Swissport ground crews in the current regional JQ ports plus some new ones (IVC and HLZ). Maybe could even be used to feed some VA trans tas services....


Wonder how well the New Zealand market would respond to the service levels of TT, I know that JQ has probably trained the New Zealand market allot to accept that style (compared to when JQ first entered the market).

On the subject of JQ does anyone know if they are doing the carry-on enforcement over here now? like they do in Australia with two ground staff per flight armed with an EFTPOS machine and set of scales weighting everyones carry-on?
 
a7ala
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:51 am

planemanofnz wrote:
SQ32 wrote:
Based on Airbus data, A359 can do SIN-WLG easily as the runway can accomodate TOW of 231 t.

Is it more complex than just that though? For example, what does WLG's wind and rain do to that capability?

Cheers,

C.


Wind should make the capability better, rain would make it worse. Can they tow be achieved on a wet runway? What max pax weight is required for WLG-SIN?
 
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SQ32
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:16 pm

The OEW is about 144t. SQ A359 takes about 253 pax, so its about 25t for pax. Assuming 5t reserve fuel, and 5.4t/hr for the mission of 9.5 hours.

TOW of about 225t will be sufficient for the mission for rule of thumb.



a7ala wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
SQ32 wrote:
Based on Airbus data, A359 can do SIN-WLG easily as the runway can accomodate TOW of 231 t.

Is it more complex than just that though? For example, what does WLG's wind and rain do to that capability?

Cheers,

C.


Wind should make the capability better, rain would make it worse. Can they tow be achieved on a wet runway? What max pax weight is required for WLG-SIN?
 
a7ala
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:39 pm

SQ32 wrote:
The OEW is about 144t. SQ A359 takes about 253 pax, so its about 25t for pax. Assuming 5t reserve fuel, and 5.4t/hr for the mission of 9.5 hours.

TOW of about 225t will be sufficient for the mission for rule of thumb.



I presume your takeoff weight is based on dry runway. Wet performance will be worse plus there may be obstacle limitations on rwy34. So the 6t buffer isn't likely to go very far.

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