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edealinfo
Posts: 2784
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:49 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
BREAKING NEWS: "‘Mystery’ foreign investor may turn white knight for Jet"

Holy Connolly; the Jet saga never ends! What's even more interesting is this interest has come in despite the raids against Naresh Goyal and all the accusations against him.

“The foreign entity which sent in its EoI yesterday is interesting. The company is renowned and the outlook looks positive so far,” said a source close to the development. “The Committee of Creditors (CoC) needs to approve the EoI. Secondly, the company should sign an NDA. Then, if there is merit in the bid, it’s a win for the airline.”

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 235659.ece

Let the speculation begin on who is: "The [foreign] company is renowned and the outlook looks positive so far"


If I had to guess, I would say an airline. Jet only makes sense for an airline to waste time resurrecting. Not only could they get a ROI if the airline is successful but they also can push traffic onto their network. Which airline, who knows. To be honest I am really over the full Jet airways IBC thing. The process makes no sense. EY exited because the IBC wasn’t being clear wrt the debt that survives the transaction. The full purpose of the IBC is supposed to be settling debts. Indian business needs to speak up.


Here are my guesses:

For a play on slots: Qatar ( one of the many arms of its Government)

Delta: For feed and if it assumes it can get a spectacular deal

From the media statement the only clues are “foreign” and “renowned”. I don’t think “with a positive outlook” offers any clue.
 
avier
Posts: 1311
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:41 pm

IndiGo announces Mumbai - Jodhpur, finally! Flights start from Sept 16th.
BOM-JDH 11:00-12:35
JDH-BOM 13:05-14:45

Ending AI monopoly on this route since Jet disappearance. Similar such routes requiring flights from Pvt airlines are Mumbai- Aurangabad/Bhuj/Rajkot. All currently milked by AI monopoly after 9W went off.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2784
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:29 pm

avier wrote:
IndiGo announces Mumbai - Jodhpur, finally! Flights start from Sept 16th.
BOM-JDH 11:00-12:35
JDH-BOM 13:05-14:45

Ending AI monopoly on this route since Jet disappearance. Similar such routes requiring flights from Pvt airlines are Mumbai- Aurangabad/Bhuj/Rajkot. All currently milked by AI monopoly after 9W went off.

If they are truly milked, the private players won’t be far behind. The only reason reason They haven’t pounced On it as yet is because there are even more profitable routes that are yet to be had for the asking
 
vadodara
Posts: 1146
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:58 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
BREAKING NEWS: "‘Mystery’ foreign investor may turn white knight for Jet"

Holy Connolly; the Jet saga never ends! What's even more interesting is this interest has come in despite the raids against Naresh Goyal and all the accusations against him.

“The foreign entity which sent in its EoI yesterday is interesting. The company is renowned and the outlook looks positive so far,” said a source close to the development. “The Committee of Creditors (CoC) needs to approve the EoI. Secondly, the company should sign an NDA. Then, if there is merit in the bid, it’s a win for the airline.”

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 235659.ece

Let the speculation begin on who is: "The [foreign] company is renowned and the outlook looks positive so far"


If I had to guess, I would say an airline. Jet only makes sense for an airline to waste time resurrecting. Not only could they get a ROI if the airline is successful but they also can push traffic onto their network. Which airline, who knows. To be honest I am really over the full Jet airways IBC thing. The process makes no sense. EY exited because the IBC wasn’t being clear wrt the debt that survives the transaction. The full purpose of the IBC is supposed to be settling debts. Indian business needs to speak up.


With the advent of ED cases agains NG, chances of anyone wanting to dip into ‘Jet Airways corp’ should be nil.

Only piece remaining then would be ops and assets. Once the airline discontinues service, that goes out of the Door.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2784
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:53 pm

vadodara wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
BREAKING NEWS: "‘Mystery’ foreign investor may turn white knight for Jet"

Holy Connolly; the Jet saga never ends! What's even more interesting is this interest has come in despite the raids against Naresh Goyal and all the accusations against him.

“The foreign entity which sent in its EoI yesterday is interesting. The company is renowned and the outlook looks positive so far,” said a source close to the development. “The Committee of Creditors (CoC) needs to approve the EoI. Secondly, the company should sign an NDA. Then, if there is merit in the bid, it’s a win for the airline.”

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 235659.ece

Let the speculation begin on who is: "The [foreign] company is renowned and the outlook looks positive so far"


If I had to guess, I would say an airline. Jet only makes sense for an airline to waste time resurrecting. Not only could they get a ROI if the airline is successful but they also can push traffic onto their network. Which airline, who knows. To be honest I am really over the full Jet airways IBC thing. The process makes no sense. EY exited because the IBC wasn’t being clear wrt the debt that survives the transaction. The full purpose of the IBC is supposed to be settling debts. Indian business needs to speak up.


With the advent of ED cases agains NG, chances of anyone wanting to dip into ‘Jet Airways corp’ should be nil.

Only piece remaining then would be ops and assets. Once the airline discontinues service, that goes out of the Door.


It is Avianca Airlines of South America that is interested in Jet. Talk about a googley

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.economic ... 832978.cms
 
ameya
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:46 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:43 am

srkSJC wrote:
ameya wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:

Is it that they need to just work on the system and process or does it need to breath life into it? I think they just need to fix the system. The concept of subsidizing an air route to increase small town connectivity is quite normal and straight forward. I think this will work itself out in a few years.


It needs a new life. Ways to find out how the remaining 75% flights can be started and soon we will reach end of life for subsidy. What happens next? Established airlines like SG has pulled out of RCS routes, one wonders what happens after subsidy stops!


There are multiple and overlapping issues in this. RDG guidelines were insisted upon in a era where then civil aviation minister Madhav Rao Scindia was made aware of the situation where East West airlines, damania airlines will eat away all the big bucks domestic routes of Indian Airlines and IC will have to pick up the bones. Being acutely aware of this, IC pushed for and got its own terminals in Delhi and Bombay ( Terminal 1A) and one in Bombay had jet boarding bridges. But the over the years it was seen that merely pushing the airlines to ply on remote routes will not help the civil aviation. So UDAN was brought in using internationally accepted principle of incentives and subsidy. Merging RDG with UDAN is most widely spoken idea but it involves many issues. Like what if airlines start a route, develop the particular sector and then leave it. Would they be exempt from compulsorily mounting flights to remote areas in return for allowing permission for metro routes. Somewhere the taxation, the issue of connectivity to and from airports ( some airports like Bagdogra private cabs charge an obscene amount to cover mere 25 kilometers), basic but usable facilities ( less ornamental but more functional) are important. Blaming the Central Govt or the airlines would not lead us to any solution. We need joint centre-state collaboration here.


Well said! and some interesting points
 
ameya
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:46 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:38 am

Why govt must distribute Jet slots to other airlines urgently

India has seen record air traffic growth in the last five years.
Growth has been driven by capacity induction.
Load factors have consistently been high, leaving little room for growth there

As the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) declared its monthly summary of air traffic in India for July, the Indian aviation market had grown just 3 percent, month over month (MoM) and a similar number year on year (YoY).

What a difference a few months make. The market has grown leaps and bounds in the last five years. India recorded 52.16 lakh domestic passengers in July 2014, across all airlines. Come July 2019, IndiGo alone carried 56.93 lakh passengers. These five years from 2014 to early 2019 were characterised by double-digit growth, nearly touching 20 percent on most occasions.
 
avier
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Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:07 pm

So along with GoAir moving all domestic ops at BOM to T1, 6E will be following them too. And both airlines will have unified ops of domestic ( at T1) and int'l (at T2) and the demarcation of terminals for the respective ops removing any confusions unlike before. Spicejet on other hand will have its entire domestic+int'l ops at BOM from T2 only. All changes eff. 1st Oct.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2784
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:12 pm

Jet Airways....extension of the Expression of Interest deadline to Aug 31 in a brilliant legal move to make Avianca’s EOI legal. Indians have become the masters of legalizing backdating.
 
sibibom
Posts: 477
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:42 am

edealinfo wrote:
vadodara wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:

If I had to guess, I would say an airline. Jet only makes sense for an airline to waste time resurrecting. Not only could they get a ROI if the airline is successful but they also can push traffic onto their network. Which airline, who knows. To be honest I am really over the full Jet airways IBC thing. The process makes no sense. EY exited because the IBC wasn’t being clear wrt the debt that survives the transaction. The full purpose of the IBC is supposed to be settling debts. Indian business needs to speak up.


With the advent of ED cases agains NG, chances of anyone wanting to dip into ‘Jet Airways corp’ should be nil.

Only piece remaining then would be ops and assets. Once the airline discontinues service, that goes out of the Door.


It is Avianca Airlines of South America that is interested in Jet. Talk about a googley

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.economic ... 832978.cms


Except Avianca is broke

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1430095
 
VTORD
Posts: 776
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:35 am

edealinfo wrote:
It is Avianca Airlines of South America that is interested in Jet. Talk about a googley
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.economic ... 832978.cms


sibibom wrote:
Except Avianca is broke
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1430095


It isn't exactly Avianca is it? It's a South American conglomerate that owns majority shares in airlines including Colombian carrier Avianca Holdings. Funny thing...knowing nothing about them, I googled them and their website link from the Wikipedia page comes up a blank and the only other "synergy group" link from the search results is a HKG-based company founded in 2008.
 
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unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:11 am

Another waste of a week. On to 31AUG now
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1298
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:05 pm

avier wrote:
So along with GoAir moving all domestic ops at BOM to T1, 6E will be following them too. And both airlines will have unified ops of domestic ( at T1) and int'l (at T2) and the demarcation of terminals for the respective ops removing any confusions unlike before. Spicejet on other hand will have its entire domestic+int'l ops at BOM from T2 only. All changes eff. 1st Oct.


Im a bit surprised Go moved to T1. That basically shuts Go out of Intl-Dom connections from third party airlines. I guess t1 being cheaper makes up for that. Also I hope Spice gets its act together on interline baggage and customer service. Even if Spice doesn't want connecting pax in a lot of airports, they should have the system built out at BOM and DEL. Probably worth the investment and pain of dealing with transfer pax.
 
killswitch13
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:52 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:06 pm

According to a Paki Minister the airspace of Pakistan will once again be closed for India.
 
fortunerunnner
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:03 pm

killswitch13 wrote:
According to a Paki Minister the airspace of Pakistan will once again be closed for India.


Its just a bluster for domestic audience, if they wanted to close it they would have done so long time back. Don't forget last time they attempted it, they lost more $$$ than India and had to eventually give up unilaterally without winning any concession from the Indian side. This time it will be no different, Air India and GOI will sustain the loss as long as it need to while Pakistan government desperately need the money they generate due to overflights. If they close it again, it will be like cutting off the nose to spite the face.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2784
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:58 pm

fortunerunnner wrote:
killswitch13 wrote:
According to a Paki Minister the airspace of Pakistan will once again be closed for India.


Its just a bluster for domestic audience, if they wanted to close it they would have done so long time back. Don't forget last time they attempted it, they lost more $$$ than India and had to eventually give up unilaterally without winning any concession from the Indian side. This time it will be no different, Air India and GOI will sustain the loss as long as it need to while Pakistan government desperately need the money they generate due to overflights. If they close it again, it will be like cutting off the nose to spite the face.


Pak can counter that by closing its air space only for Indian owned airlines. This way it continues to gain revenue from foreign airlines that would continue to use its airSpace. I am surprised they didn’t do that as yet.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2784
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:00 pm

unrave wrote:
Another waste of a week. On to 31AUG now

Agree. It is amazing how the RP is jumping on an EOI for which it doesn’t make any sense. The longer they drag this on, the worse for Jet’s creditors
 
fortunerunnner
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:02 pm

edealinfo wrote:
fortunerunnner wrote:
killswitch13 wrote:
According to a Paki Minister the airspace of Pakistan will once again be closed for India.


Its just a bluster for domestic audience, if they wanted to close it they would have done so long time back. Don't forget last time they attempted it, they lost more $$$ than India and had to eventually give up unilaterally without winning any concession from the Indian side. This time it will be no different, Air India and GOI will sustain the loss as long as it need to while Pakistan government desperately need the money they generate due to overflights. If they close it again, it will be like cutting off the nose to spite the face.


Pak can counter that by closing its air space only for Indian owned airlines. This way it continues to gain revenue from foreign airlines that would continue to use its airSpace. I am surprised they didn’t do that as yet.


You are forgetting that India can counter it by not allowing any flights to come in or exit via PAK airspace. Foreign airlines travelling between SEA and EMEA will still need to cross India but by blocking their entry from PAK, India can effectively make PAK airspace useless even if its open to non Indian airlines. Its fools errand to think PAK has any leverage on this issue.
 
TEMPO
Posts: 77
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 2:34 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:16 pm

Bangalore’s new runway 9R/27L passes initial operational tests. Due to open on December 5th.

https://www.deccanherald.com/city/benga ... 57369.html

Did I read on a previous post on the India thread that this is only the 4th net new runway in India since 1947? That’s not counting substitutions like Begumpet->Shamshabad and Hindustan->Devenhalli.
 
acavpics
Posts: 584
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:54 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:16 pm

Does anyone know if EK is coming back to CCJ? Back in 2015, they said that they would restore service after the runway repairs were complete. There was some article from a few months ago that they were actively looking to bring EK back.

Until 2015, there were up to two flights per day between CCJ and DXB on EK metal. (EK560/561 and EK562/563)
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:09 am

TEMPO wrote:
Bangalore’s new runway 9R/27L passes initial operational tests. Due to open on December 5th.

https://www.deccanherald.com/city/benga ... 57369.html

Did I read on a previous post on the India thread that this is only the 4th net new runway in India since 1947? That’s not counting substitutions like Begumpet->Shamshabad and Hindustan->Devenhalli.

That is correct. There have been numerous runway extensions but India has built just a handful of new runways since independence
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:08 am

Air India announces Mumbai- Kuwait from Oct 27th, operational daily and on A320neo.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2784
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:08 pm

acavpics wrote:
Does anyone know if EK is coming back to CCJ? Back in 2015, they said that they would restore service after the runway repairs were complete. There was some article from a few months ago that they were actively looking to bring EK back.

Until 2015, there were up to two flights per day between CCJ and DXB on EK metal. (EK560/. So, 561 and EK562/563)

Since they have maxed out on the bilateral capacity, this would mean that they would have to cut service from elsewhere to restart service to CCJ. So, unless CCJ is more profitable to them than to flights to other stations in India, why would they restart service?
 
Blerg
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:12 pm

Does AI offer connections in BOM or are they mainly after O&D passengers? Like these Kuwait flights, will they fit into their waves?
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:29 pm

edealinfo wrote:
acavpics wrote:
Does anyone know if EK is coming back to CCJ? Back in 2015, they said that they would restore service after the runway repairs were complete. There was some article from a few months ago that they were actively looking to bring EK back.

Until 2015, there were up to two flights per day between CCJ and DXB on EK metal. (EK560/. So, 561 and EK562/563)

Since they have maxed out on the bilateral capacity, this would mean that they would have to cut service from elsewhere to restart service to CCJ. So, unless CCJ is more profitable to them than to flights to other stations in India, why would they restart service?

Agreed, when a resource is rationed, it will be allocated for best use.

With Air India, Indigo, GoAir, and SpiceJet fighting over the limited Indian bilaterals to DXB. The GoI needs to wise up. There must be 40 to 60 airports in India, including CCJ that would benefit from more international service. The GoI should tie in bilaterals with agricultural exports, software outsourcing, Indian expatriate hiring, as well as slot access. They also need to deal with anyone to boost the economy of these airports.

Lightsaber
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:14 pm

Blerg wrote:
Does AI offer connections in BOM or are they mainly after O&D passengers? Like these Kuwait flights, will they fit into their waves?

They don't have such planned waves at BOM, like they do at DEL. Connections if possible, will happen. The timings for this new flight are conducive for that as it's a late night flight, which can get feed from evening domestic arrivals. Though O&D on this sector is also strong, just like to the rest of the ME from BOM. 6E also recently started this route.

lightsaber wrote:
With Air India, Indigo, GoAir, and SpiceJet fighting over the limited Indian bilaterals to DXB. The GoI needs to wise up. There must be 40 to 60 airports in India, including CCJ that would benefit from more international service. The GoI should tie in bilaterals with agricultural exports, software outsourcing, Indian expatriate hiring, as well as slot access. They also need to deal with anyone to boost the economy of these airports.

They could increase bilateral air seats just by merging the BASA with the various states/kingdoms in UAE. And that's for the UAE to do, not India. Plenty of available seats on India-AUH available both ways, which was increased coincidentally when EY took stake in 9W.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:17 pm

edealinfo wrote:

Pak can counter that by closing its air space only for Indian owned airlines. This way it continues to gain revenue from foreign airlines that would continue to use its airSpace. I am surprised they didn’t do that as yet.

You really expect India will allow it's airlines to be discriminated like that?
 
fortunerunnner
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:11 pm

anshabhi wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

Pak can counter that by closing its air space only for Indian owned airlines. This way it continues to gain revenue from foreign airlines that would continue to use its airSpace. I am surprised they didn’t do that as yet.

You really expect India will allow it's airlines to be discriminated like that?


@edealinfo conveniently went silent when I asked similar question earlier.

All India has to do is to ban traffic to and from Pakistan into India which will make PAK airspace useless even if its open to traffic for International airlines. Most of flights which use Pak airspace to transit are on their way to and from Europe/South East Asia/Australia. There is no way in the world those flights can use Pak airspace if they are not able to enter or exit from India and it will be a net loss to them regardless. God knows why some folks are hell bent on thinking Pakistan has any leverage on this issue.
 
VTORD
Posts: 776
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:37 pm

anshabhi wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

Pak can counter that by closing its air space only for Indian owned airlines. This way it continues to gain revenue from foreign airlines that would continue to use its airSpace. I am surprised they didn’t do that as yet.

You really expect India will allow it's airlines to be discriminated like that?

Right, wrong or indifferent, there is nothing India can do to prevent Pakistan from discriminating like that. It is their airspace at the end of the day. India can take any number of retaliatory measures but it cannot "not allow". He has a point.
 
fortunerunnner
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:46 pm

VTORD wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

Pak can counter that by closing its air space only for Indian owned airlines. This way it continues to gain revenue from foreign airlines that would continue to use its airSpace. I am surprised they didn’t do that as yet.

You really expect India will allow it's airlines to be discriminated like that?

Right, wrong or indifferent, there is nothing India can do to prevent Pakistan from discriminating like that. It is their airspace at the end of the day. India can take any number of retaliatory measures but it cannot "not allow". He has a point.


You are right but what @anshabhi and I are asking @edealinfo is to explain how Pakistan would benefit by taking this measure with his comment "i'm surprised they haven't done this already'. If Pakistan does this, all India need to do is to stop all flights to and from Pakistan airspace which again it has all authority in the world to do so.

Due to Geographical advantage India has, there is no way in the world for airlines to use Pakistan airspace but not use Indian one while transiting except for very few select flights between Middle East and Far East. As was the case with previous closure, those flights provide very few $$s and Pakistan lost lot of revenue. Eventually they gave up and unilaterally withdrew the restrictions due to the loss so they have zero leverage to try and pull this off one more time.

Sure, AI lost some money (when they haven't so its not something new) and UA/AC had to cancel their flights, but all airlines still continued to serve India as well as transit India during earlier closure. Same thing will happen again but fact is AI and in turn GOI can afford to loose few million $$s but Pakistan cannot so effectively India can and will force their hand to not try that again. Its waste of time and effort for everyone and result will not be any different than what happened last time, it was already tried and it didn't work.
 
Antarius
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:16 pm

fortunerunnner wrote:
VTORD wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
You really expect India will allow it's airlines to be discriminated like that?

Right, wrong or indifferent, there is nothing India can do to prevent Pakistan from discriminating like that. It is their airspace at the end of the day. India can take any number of retaliatory measures but it cannot "not allow". He has a point.


You are right but what @anshabhi and I are asking @edealinfo is to explain how Pakistan would benefit by taking this measure with his comment "i'm surprised they haven't done this already'. If Pakistan does this, all India need to do is to stop all flights to and from Pakistan airspace which again it has all authority in the world to do so.

Due to Geographical advantage India has, there is no way in the world for airlines to use Pakistan airspace but not use Indian one while transiting except for very few select flights between Middle East and Far East. As was the case with previous closure, those flights provide very few $$s and Pakistan lost lot of revenue. Eventually they gave up and unilaterally withdrew the restrictions due to the loss so they have zero leverage to try and pull this off one more time.

Sure, AI lost some money (when they haven't so its not something new) and UA/AC had to cancel their flights, but all airlines still continued to serve India as well as transit India during earlier closure. Same thing will happen again but fact is AI and in turn GOI can afford to loose few million $$s but Pakistan cannot so effectively India can and will force their hand to not try that again. Its waste of time and effort for everyone and result will not be any different than what happened last time, it was already tried and it didn't work.


How does India closing its airspace stop flights to Europe? Other than BKK and KUL, doesn't appear PIA flies anywhere else that requires Indian airspace. Pakistan airports aren't a hotbed of international carriers either. While I agree that closing airspace is stupid, especially when they are broke, I am unclear about your point

unless your point is that any aircraft using Pakistani airspace cannot use Indian airspace, thereby causing an issue for something like LHR-SIN. If so - IMO, that's a terrible idea as that would needlessly piss off everyone with no gain. If that caused my flight to be canceled, I'd be pretty furious at India.
 
fortunerunnner
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:42 am

Antarius wrote:
fortunerunnner wrote:
VTORD wrote:
Right, wrong or indifferent, there is nothing India can do to prevent Pakistan from discriminating like that. It is their airspace at the end of the day. India can take any number of retaliatory measures but it cannot "not allow". He has a point.


You are right but what @anshabhi and I are asking @edealinfo is to explain how Pakistan would benefit by taking this measure with his comment "i'm surprised they haven't done this already'. If Pakistan does this, all India need to do is to stop all flights to and from Pakistan airspace which again it has all authority in the world to do so.

Due to Geographical advantage India has, there is no way in the world for airlines to use Pakistan airspace but not use Indian one while transiting except for very few select flights between Middle East and Far East. As was the case with previous closure, those flights provide very few $$s and Pakistan lost lot of revenue. Eventually they gave up and unilaterally withdrew the restrictions due to the loss so they have zero leverage to try and pull this off one more time.

Sure, AI lost some money (when they haven't so its not something new) and UA/AC had to cancel their flights, but all airlines still continued to serve India as well as transit India during earlier closure. Same thing will happen again but fact is AI and in turn GOI can afford to loose few million $$s but Pakistan cannot so effectively India can and will force their hand to not try that again. Its waste of time and effort for everyone and result will not be any different than what happened last time, it was already tried and it didn't work.


How does India closing its airspace stop flights to Europe? Other than BKK and KUL, doesn't appear PIA flies anywhere else that requires Indian airspace. Pakistan airports aren't a hotbed of international carriers either. While I agree that closing airspace is stupid, especially when they are broke, I am unclear about your point

unless your point is that any aircraft using Pakistani airspace cannot use Indian airspace, thereby causing an issue for something like LHR-SIN. If so - IMO, that's a terrible idea as that would needlessly piss off everyone with no gain. If that caused my flight to be canceled, I'd be pretty furious at India.


Its not going to cancel any flights as this was already a case for over 3 months or so during earlier airspace closure except UA/AC flights due to economic reasons. It will by default revert to that earlier state if India decides to take retaliatory measures against Pakistan closing its airspace for Indian flights. All flights will just take a southern route instead like coming in from Gulf of Oman/Arabian sea into India on their way from Europe to South East Asia. It wouldn’t cause major issue as far as International travel is concerned but denies Pakistan overflight fees as no flights can traverse it except few flights going from Middle East to Far East (China). Check FlightRadar if you are unsure of flight patterns over Pakistan into India.
 
srkSJC
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:17 am

TEMPO wrote:
Bangalore’s new runway 9R/27L passes initial operational tests. Due to open on December 5th.

https://www.deccanherald.com/city/benga ... 57369.html

Did I read on a previous post on the India thread that this is only the 4th net new runway in India since 1947? That’s not counting substitutions like Begumpet->Shamshabad and Hindustan->Devenhalli.


Good news after a very long time...need to have tandem runway operations quickly and make it high density runway operations all year long specially bad weather.
 
srkSJC
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:28 am

edealinfo wrote:
fortunerunnner wrote:
killswitch13 wrote:
According to a Paki Minister the airspace of Pakistan will once again be closed for India.


Its just a bluster for domestic audience, if they wanted to close it they would have done so long time back. Don't forget last time they attempted it, they lost more $$$ than India and had to eventually give up unilaterally without winning any concession from the Indian side. This time it will be no different, Air India and GOI will sustain the loss as long as it need to while Pakistan government desperately need the money they generate due to overflights. If they close it again, it will be like cutting off the nose to spite the face.


Pak can counter that by closing its air space only for Indian owned airlines. This way it continues to gain revenue from foreign airlines that would continue to use its airSpace. I am surprised they didn’t do that as yet.


There is a parallel route possible - through waypoint THOISE-HOTAN(HTN)-SHACHE(SCH). This route has been under discussion of ICAO for sometime in this past decade. China needs to agree on this provided they get something in return. In reality it is not required to use Pakistani airspace. Check navigation charts for understanding what waypoints are and how/why they are important. Civil aviation is quite dynamic and not so straight forward as you might think.
 
srkSJC
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:38 am

Antarius wrote:
fortunerunnner wrote:
VTORD wrote:
Right, wrong or indifferent, there is nothing India can do to prevent Pakistan from discriminating like that. It is their airspace at the end of the day. India can take any number of retaliatory measures but it cannot "not allow". He has a point.


You are right but what @anshabhi and I are asking @edealinfo is to explain how Pakistan would benefit by taking this measure with his comment "i'm surprised they haven't done this already'. If Pakistan does this, all India need to do is to stop all flights to and from Pakistan airspace which again it has all authority in the world to do so.

Due to Geographical advantage India has, there is no way in the world for airlines to use Pakistan airspace but not use Indian one while transiting except for very few select flights between Middle East and Far East. As was the case with previous closure, those flights provide very few $$s and Pakistan lost lot of revenue. Eventually they gave up and unilaterally withdrew the restrictions due to the loss so they have zero leverage to try and pull this off one more time.

Sure, AI lost some money (when they haven't so its not something new) and UA/AC had to cancel their flights, but all airlines still continued to serve India as well as transit India during earlier closure. Same thing will happen again but fact is AI and in turn GOI can afford to loose few million $$s but Pakistan cannot so effectively India can and will force their hand to not try that again. Its waste of time and effort for everyone and result will not be any different than what happened last time, it was already tried and it didn't work.


International civil aviation is regulated and often managed under the principle of reciprocity. So if Pakistan refuses entry to aircrafts bearing indian registration or aircrafts using indian airspace to move in to pakistani airspace to overfly them, India retains the right to refuse any aircraft from using their airspace using the same logic. It does not matter that other carriers flying the flag of foreign countries are caught in the limbo. It is the price people pay. Russian airspace over Siberia was closed due to US-Soviet/US-Russia differences so Finnair or Air Canada could not fly over there non-stop to India. Infact non stop USA-INDIA started in 2002-2003 after this restriction was lifted ( if my memory serves me right).

How does India closing its airspace stop flights to Europe? Other than BKK and KUL, doesn't appear PIA flies anywhere else that requires Indian airspace. Pakistan airports aren't a hotbed of international carriers either. While I agree that closing airspace is stupid, especially when they are broke, I am unclear about your point

unless your point is that any aircraft using Pakistani airspace cannot use Indian airspace, thereby causing an issue for something like LHR-SIN. If so - IMO, that's a terrible idea as that would needlessly piss off everyone with no gain. If that caused my flight to be canceled, I'd be pretty furious at India.
 
srkSJC
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:44 am

ameya wrote:
srkSJC wrote:
ameya wrote:

It needs a new life. Ways to find out how the remaining 75% flights can be started and soon we will reach end of life for subsidy. What happens next? Established airlines like SG has pulled out of RCS routes, one wonders what happens after subsidy stops!


There are multiple and overlapping issues in this. RDG guidelines were insisted upon in a era where then civil aviation minister Madhav Rao Scindia was made aware of the situation where East West airlines, damania airlines will eat away all the big bucks domestic routes of Indian Airlines and IC will have to pick up the bones. Being acutely aware of this, IC pushed for and got its own terminals in Delhi and Bombay ( Terminal 1A) and one in Bombay had jet boarding bridges. But the over the years it was seen that merely pushing the airlines to ply on remote routes will not help the civil aviation. So UDAN was brought in using internationally accepted principle of incentives and subsidy. Merging RDG with UDAN is most widely spoken idea but it involves many issues. Like what if airlines start a route, develop the particular sector and then leave it. Would they be exempt from compulsorily mounting flights to remote areas in return for allowing permission for metro routes. Somewhere the taxation, the issue of connectivity to and from airports ( some airports like Bagdogra private cabs charge an obscene amount to cover mere 25 kilometers), basic but usable facilities ( less ornamental but more functional) are important. Blaming the Central Govt or the airlines would not lead us to any solution. We need joint centre-state collaboration here.


Well said! and some interesting points


Interestingly this article appeared.....seems someone is tailing you unofficially......jokes aside this article makes way for some important issues- https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/ ... 262555.ece
 
srkSJC
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:50 am

edealinfo wrote:
srkSJC wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Rono for sure knows how to meander in this chinese market.


What is his knowledge or experience in this market?


If you do not know about Ronojoy Dutta then there is nothing i can talk about. Read about him on the internet ( and not the "noun" word everybody seems to be using when they want to search for anything on the cyber space). You will understand. And then you will be surprised how it was a full circle for Ronojoy and Rakesh...........Read and enjoy the wonderful world of aviation we all love to indulge in..... :D
 
srkSJC
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:54 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
srkSJC wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:

Wow before it even started. So pre sales must be good? So what will AI do? I think they should go back to 7X SFO-DEL and move the 3X to either LAX-DEL or SFO-BLR. What is going on with AI’s IAD-DEL flight? I am surprised that AI hasn’t increased frequency there to at least 5X. Serving a station 3X is not efficient. I was in favor with AI testing the waiters with 3X. But either expand or cut the station. Long term no way a 3X ULH flight can be profitable.


AI Dulles Intl service is having 70% occupancy rate and which is similar to most if not all foreign carriers operating there [i]{ source A.net contributor 'dcaviation' on thread "IAD is bouncing back again" on page 1 bottom most post.} [/i]

Seems time is right to pull it back from there and may be add a second daily DEL-JFK or second daily BOM-EWR where they can more better response. But being a prestigious service it may not be done. SF service should stay as it is. It is performing better than any other sector.


I disagree on a second JFK-DEL or anything more in NYC area. AI should continue to connect more NA cities to DEL. That is a clear strategy that adds connectivity to DEL. That said, they need to move beyond 3X flights. 5X is probably the least amount that should be there steady state after say 1 year old running the flight. JFK-BOM was a dumb add. AI should never be adding flights because others do it. DL’s FF base and connectivity at JFK give it advantages that AI just doesn’t have. 3X EWR-DEL would have been better.


Given the precarious state of AI now no more addition of flights other than what has been already announced. I doubt whether Delhi-Toronto will ever start or even Nairobi/Bali flights.
 
srkSJC
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:00 am

Antarius wrote:
fortunerunnner wrote:
VTORD wrote:
Right, wrong or indifferent, there is nothing India can do to prevent Pakistan from discriminating like that. It is their airspace at the end of the day. India can take any number of retaliatory measures but it cannot "not allow". He has a point.


You are right but what @anshabhi and I are asking @edealinfo is to explain how Pakistan would benefit by taking this measure with his comment "i'm surprised they haven't done this already'. If Pakistan does this, all India need to do is to stop all flights to and from Pakistan airspace which again it has all authority in the world to do so.

Due to Geographical advantage India has, there is no way in the world for airlines to use Pakistan airspace but not use Indian one while transiting except for very few select flights between Middle East and Far East. As was the case with previous closure, those flights provide very few $$s and Pakistan lost lot of revenue. Eventually they gave up and unilaterally withdrew the restrictions due to the loss so they have zero leverage to try and pull this off one more time.

Sure, AI lost some money (when they haven't so its not something new) and UA/AC had to cancel their flights, but all airlines still continued to serve India as well as transit India during earlier closure. Same thing will happen again but fact is AI and in turn GOI can afford to loose few million $$s but Pakistan cannot so effectively India can and will force their hand to not try that again. Its waste of time and effort for everyone and result will not be any different than what happened last time, it was already tried and it didn't work.


My earlier post was not properly done so i am replying to briefly. Non stop USA-INDIA was not possible due to russian airspace restrictions. So Finnair or Air Canada could never operate non stop flights prior to 2002-03 (if my memory serves me right) because airspace over siberia was not open to any free market carrier prior to that ( the berlin wall fell in 1990 true but politics is very strange). So if Pakistani govt blocks airspace for indian carriers, expect same reciprocal response from India. Whether LH or BA, or EK dislikes it is not relevant. And passengers have to bear the brunt.

How does India closing its airspace stop flights to Europe? Other than BKK and KUL, doesn't appear PIA flies anywhere else that requires Indian airspace. Pakistan airports aren't a hotbed of international carriers either. While I agree that closing airspace is stupid, especially when they are broke, I am unclear about your point

unless your point is that any aircraft using Pakistani airspace cannot use Indian airspace, thereby causing an issue for something like LHR-SIN. If so - IMO, that's a terrible idea as that would needlessly piss off everyone with no gain. If that caused my flight to be canceled, I'd be pretty furious at India.
 
srkSJC
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:02 am

Any latest news on the T-1 expansion of IGIA? Any photos being uploaded by DIAL. How about HYD expansion, Goa-Mopa and MAA? Heard even AMD is undergoing expansion of some sorts.
 
srkSJC
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:12 am

My take on the 9W saga so far - expect Avianca owners to team up with Volcan group or Hinduja to acquire it. Conforms to the indian ownership rule and gives everyone a breather. But elephant in the room is --- what will happen to Air India then? Is it possible that any group which owns Jet Airways is looking at AI minus all its troubles and then merge them together? 9W losing all is Boeing fleet is a blessing because AI is Airbus narrow body and Boeing wide body....easy to maintain domestic and international operations....Just a wild thought but sometimes in business improbable is possible...
 
srkSJC
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:25 am

SATexan wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
[Is DFW-HYD the number Indian city pair? I somehow doubt that. Could someone post the statistics. It seems like every time we speak of a US city to India, people say HYD is the #1 city pair. While I am not doubting that people from the HYD region have immigrated in large numbers to the US, my ground reality in the US has never been that people from there are the main drivers of India-US traffic for the vast majority of US cities (perhaps #1 to one major city). And to to be clear, I know they are a significant group but fact remains HYD has struggled to attract EU/US airlines that are mostly focused on India-US traffic.

DFW-HYD is indeed the No 1 Indian city pair out of the DFW area. If you go back 8-9 years (circa 2010), the O&D from DFW to DEL/BOM and HYD were pretty similar in the 28-35 PDEW range with DEL being the number 1 market and HYD just behind DEL and BOM. But HYD registered pretty impressive growth after 2011 and by 2014 it was already crossing 50 PDEW leaving DEL behind. I don't have the 2017/18 numbers but I wouldn't be surprised if DFW-HYD has already closed in or surpassed the DFW-Tokyo market (which is around 75 PDEW) since the DFW-India markets have shown 100-200% growth in a decades timeframe. However, there is very little premium demand from DFW-HYD and much of the traffic tends to be visitors, family members and students.


News wire reports out of American Airlines: B787 pilot base is opening up effective January 2020 and will coincide with their new EU region flights...Let us keep our hopes high for a direct non-stop flight to India. Speculation suggests that B787 will be rotated DFW-PHL.
 
srkSJC
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:38 am

Some quick hop to the Interglobe Aviation Annual General meet - CEO said that long haul operations on wide body is being intensely debated and discussed upon, they need business class on widebody to make it work, cost and pricing factors need to be analysed, related party transactions are helpful for the company, more international growth will be achieved.

I am attaching the Annual report copy for those who are in the mood to go deeper into it - https://www.goindigo.in/content/dam/goi ... 018-19.pdf

Two things from the annual report hold out for me- Forex movement sucked out lot of their capital (though i am sure it is hedged properly).
They have now diversified into ground handling services ( nothing surprising given their scale and learning from AI SATS which became actually cash positive and maybe {profitable?}).
Annual report of the ground handling agency is here - https://www.goindigo.in/content/dam/goi ... 018-19.pdf

And their press release for the China flights mention - good timings out of Delhi and arrival back to Delhi. Looking forward to have more direct flights to China from Hyderabad or Lucknow(yes it has potential).
 
srkSJC
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:56 am

Read this article from an reputed indian civil aviation on why it makes sense for Indigo to expand to ground handling -----https://www.bangaloreaviation.com/2017/04/analysis-indigo-likely-enter-ground-handling-business.html

I read this then(2017) and was wondering that does it actually makes sense. Now this annual report makes it all clear.
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2265
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:35 am

srkSJC wrote:
Any latest news on the T-1 expansion of IGIA? Any photos being uploaded by DIAL. How about HYD expansion, Goa-Mopa and MAA? Heard even AMD is undergoing expansion of some sorts.

For IGIA new info keeps coming time to time follow the hash tag #futureDel https://mobile.twitter.com/hashtag/Futu ... htag_click
 
srkSJC
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:43 am

@anshabhi - thanks for the url. I sometimes follow the press link(media) to see what is new.

My thought now that automated people mover is being under active consideration for IGIA - why not have the LHR pods being used for ferrying premium passengers to the numerous hotels in Aerocity. Less crowds and more exclusivity for discerning passengers......LHR is usually not in the forefront of major innovation but they score here in this one a big one....https://youtu.be/BF1RVbnzPfs
 
VTORD
Posts: 776
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:53 pm

fortunerunnner wrote:
You are right but what @anshabhi and I are asking @edealinfo is to explain how Pakistan would benefit by taking this measure with his comment "i'm surprised they haven't done this already'. If Pakistan does this, all India need to do is to stop all flights to and from Pakistan airspace which again it has all authority in the world to do so.

I don't think Pakistan "benefits", it's just that their relative loss of revenue will be less if they do something like that. But yes I agree with you that Pak doesn't really have leverage here.
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2265
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:04 pm

GoI and Ajay Singh flirting takes a whole new level! https://twitter.com/flyspicejet/status/ ... 73568?s=20

He has been made the chief of entire Fitness Day thing
 
srkSJC
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:58 am

United flights would not be daily from April 2020 on DEL/SFO sector. Daily is only from Dec-Mar. That is not so exciting news but still good.

Livemint: AI subsidiary Air India Asset Holding to repay majority of its debts to the banks. Some welcome news but unless the cash comes around to the account no celebration yet for the depositors of those affected banks. And it seems AI will be sold 100% by the government. Decision is expected as soon as the Group of Ministers (GoM) meet on the issue.
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - August 2019

Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:05 am

srkSJC wrote:
Any latest news on the T-1 expansion of IGIA? Any photos being uploaded by DIAL. How about HYD expansion, Goa-Mopa and MAA? Heard even AMD is undergoing expansion of some sorts.

HYD expansion is underway in full swing
Mopa has been held back by environment activists terrorists. It is before the Supreme Court now.
I am not sure what is happening at AMD but the city's second airport at Dholera has advanced nicely with the signing of the MoU between Guj state government and AAI
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