DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

FSDan · Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:57 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Clearly DL sees some merit in keeping their brand/metal in MNL.

While there are some merits to the a.net myths that SIN & HKG "mint money" and MNL is a "dumpster fire", people tend to broad-brush those comments and ignore the network and competitive factors that influence each of those markets. The transitive property doesn't always apply. SIN and HKG currently don't work for DL based on their hub markets and they aren't as mature in their coastal gateways where they face significant competition.

There may be some factors at play, that potentially ICN-MNL is a stop-gap until they feel they can fly something from the US mainland and they don't want to risk losing their employees and brand presence in the market.

I could see DL eventually launching a SEA-MNL nonstop whenever the IAF at SEA is fully open, and they could be operating from ICN temporarily until that time. Or, they could genuinely see potential in the ICN-MNL market. Either way, I'm sure DL has gone over the numbers and looked at the highest volume and highest fare connecting markets they've been serving ex MNL, and are accommodating those flows.

DL's conundrum with HKG and SIN is just what you said - their best hubs for either market based on high value O&D traffic are JFK and/or LAX, but those are their most competitive hubs, all those flights are really long and tie up a lot of aircraft time, and DL needs to rely almost entirely on O&D traffic on the Asia side. AA's flights to HKG connect with partner flights on CX, UA's flights to HKG are from some of the largest O&D markets in the U.S. (SFO, NYC, CHI), and UA's flights to SIN could theoretically connect with onward flights on SQ, although I'm not sure how much the two codeshare on that end.

jetblueguy22 · Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:10 pm

Crazy to see the NRT hub go away. It's just kind of strange to me. NW didn't own the airport, but they had a really strong presence. My stepdad was a regular on JFK-NRT and connecting onward. It was kind of the last piece of NW that DL held on to until recent years.

I'm really shocked to see SIN and HKG gone from the route map though. It's pretty amazing to me that an airline with such a strong domestic network really can't make two of the biggest business destinations in Asia work. I get they love the JVs, but there is something to be said about flying on your own metal. I have friends and coworkers who are loyal DL flyers who barely touch DL planes when they go overseas. I guess that old line that Delta is afraid of big planes really has something to it...

SQ32 · Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:11 pm

Not too long ago, skeptics were questioning the viability of SIN-SEA connection, based on the available estimated 30,000 annual O&D. I have longed reckoned that SIN-SEA will be feasible once AS codeshare with SQ, while the Greater Seattle business traffic provisioned the business traffic.

Once SQ decided to move in, it is a matter of time Delta withdraws, which is probably what has been expected by SQ planners.

Seattle – Anchorage
Seattle – Atlanta
Seattle – Austin
Seattle – Boston
Seattle – Calgary
Seattle – Chicago O’Hare
Seattle – Dallas/Ft. Worth
Seattle – Denver
Seattle – El Paso
Seattle – Edmonton
Seattle – Eugene
Seattle – Honolulu
Seattle – Kahului
Seattle – Kelowna
Seattle – Las Vegas
Seattle – Minneapolis/St. Paul
Seattle – Newark
Seattle – New Orleans
Seattle – Orlando
Seattle – Pasco
Seattle – Phoenix
Seattle – Portland OR
Seattle – Sacramento
Seattle – St. Louis
Seattle – Salt Lake City
Seattle – San Diego
Seattle – San Jose CA
Seattle – Spokane
Seattle – Vancouver
Seattle – Victoria
Seattle – Washington Dulles

N212R · Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:37 pm

BAeRJ100 wrote:
max999 wrote:
Can you explain the source of this?

You wrote this in the first person perspective (we) so it's written like a Delta press release or an internal announcement.

Which can be very unwise, really. Practically every reputable company has a social media policy of some sort. I have zero doubts that DL would have one. Acting like you're speaking on behalf of a company online, even if you're hiding behind a username, is a big no-no.

What if our daredevil poster had the implicit consent of his DL brethren? The Web isn't silent, only dark and deep....

trent768 · Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:43 pm

Any chance of DL launching ICN-CGK/DPS? With the right timing, DL could helps KE/GA reduce connection time in ICN. IIRC, the ex CGK/DPS flight connects nicely to KE US banks, however on the other way around one have to spend the night at the airport.

steex · Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:44 pm

Akiestar wrote:
The Philippines and South Korea had just signed a new ASA, increasing seats to 28,000 weekly. This is up from 20,000 weekly in the ASA signed between the two countries two years ago.

I can't find the text of the PH-KR ASA but I imagine fifth freedom rights are covered as the Philippines has been keen on adding them to its ASAs in recent years.

I recall that NW previously maintained AMS-India flying because the allocation for flights to India by a Netherlands-based airlines had been maxed out and KL could not add, but NW could supplement as a fifth freedom route available to a non-Netherlands airline.

I've not done the math, but there is a vast number of flights by KE, OZ, and the various Korean LCCs to points across the Philippines. Is it possible that the capacity has been entirely soaked up by Korean carriers and KE isn't able to add another daily, year-round frequency on ICN-MNL without reducing some other service to the Philippines? I wonder if the Philippines-South Korea agreement allows a similar "loophole" to that described above for Netherlands-India, and if so, if KE/DL jointly decided that adding a DL frequency that doesn't count against the South Korea seat count would be beneficial.

xxcr · Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:48 pm

This move was expected. DL is extremely weak in Asia compared to AA and UA. will moving all their Ops to HND help DL? does HND offer more connections via partner airlines?

How many cities does DL serve in asia compared to AA and UA??

jayunited · Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:48 pm

SQ32 wrote:
Delta Air Lines is suspending services next month to Singapore, a once lucrative market that Delta and predecessor Northwest Airlines have served for several decades. Delta has been impacted in Singapore by the launch of several new nonstop routes from United Airlines and Singapore Airlines (SIA) which are particularly attractive to business passengers and corporates.

Northwest began serving Singapore prior to the country’s 1965 independence. It operated from Singapore Paya Lebar Airport to Tokyo until Changi Airport opened in 1981. Delta/Northwest has had a hub at Narita since the airport opened in 1978. Prior to that it had a hub at Haneda.

Delta could have opted to launch its own Singapore-US nonstop – most likely to its Seattle hub – but was likely dissuaded by the overcapacity in the Singapore-US market. SIA also decided last year to launch Seattle, which will become SIA’s fourth US nonstop destination on 3-Sep-2019, eliminating any possibility that conservative Delta would launch the route.

Delta of course could still return to Singapore in future with a nonstop or by launching a service to Seoul in partnership with Korean Air. For the time being at least a significant chapter in Singapore’s colourful aviation history is ending as Delta bows out.

https://blueswandaily.com/delta-air-lin ... -sep-2019/

They want us to believe Delta was dissuaded from launching SEA-NRT do to a over capacity in the US-Singapore market I wonder if it is actually true. Is there a way to find out the number of passengers who use to make connections at either NRT or HKG for years who now are flying on the nonstop? I'm not just talking about one single carrier I'm mean all the carriers combined who use to offer 1-stop service to Singapore from the US.
UA's 2x daily service replaced existing NRT, and HKG service and SQ's EWR, and LAX were a relaunch of previous service, while their first SFO nonstop flight was all new. SQ also operates additional SFO and LAX flights 3x weekly but I thought (and correct me if I'm wrong) these flights replaced existing tag-on flights. Perhaps SEA-SIN can not support a DL and a SQ nonstop flight but I don't see the overcapacity the article references.

MSPNWA · Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:58 pm

tphuang wrote:
Is this just to keep the pilots happy?

I share that interest. It's very plausible that the sole reason ICN-MNL exists (for now) is to meet the pilot contract JV limits. They could drop below the minimums without MNL, as the NRT closure is a net loss.

usdcaguy · Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:07 pm

Junction wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
DL wants to fly as little as possible with its own metal and instead use partners to fly beyond only the largest business markets.

That seems to be the idea, but are not HKG and SIN considered to be a couple of the world's largest business markets?

You’re very right about that, but business demand to SIN from the US is much more diffuse than you’d think and flying SIN nonstop on a daily basis requires more aircraft than flying to closer markets like HND. Also, NYC/SFO are the largest business origins for those cities where CX, UA and SQ have the market cornered. DL could try JFK-HKG, but I’m guessing fares are too competitive and DL has always been short on feed at JFK. We may see them try that market some other time, however.

diverdave · Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:13 pm

UA857 wrote:
R.I.P. Northwest/Delta NRT Hub 1978-2019.

Hopefully it will be interred adjacent to PanAm/Delta's Frankfurt hub.

Akiestar · Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:18 pm

steex wrote:
I've not done the math, but there is a vast number of flights by KE, OZ, and the various Korean LCCs to points across the Philippines. Is it possible that the capacity has been entirely soaked up by Korean carriers and KE isn't able to add another daily, year-round frequency on ICN-MNL without reducing some other service to the Philippines? I wonder if the Philippines-South Korea agreement allows a similar "loophole" to that described above for Netherlands-India, and if so, if KE/DL jointly decided that adding a DL frequency that doesn't count against the South Korea seat count would be beneficial.

I'm not entirely sure, but it may explain the increase in the total number of seats. KE probably can't get another slot for a third MNL-ICN flight, so they decided to launch daily service to CRK instead starting the end of October. But I don't think launching CRK-ICN would come at the expense of MNL-ICN or CEB-ICN or any of the flights operated by LJ/Jin Air (e.g. KLO-ICN or CEB-PUS).

If memory serves, NW used to do MNL-SEL-XXX routes back in the 1980s. I imagine all the bilaterals that followed since then, including the current one that was just signed, include similar provisions for fifth-freedom flights, and DL is using that accordingly.

ITSTours · Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:29 pm

Akiestar wrote:
steex wrote:
I've not done the math, but there is a vast number of flights by KE, OZ, and the various Korean LCCs to points across the Philippines. Is it possible that the capacity has been entirely soaked up by Korean carriers and KE isn't able to add another daily, year-round frequency on ICN-MNL without reducing some other service to the Philippines? I wonder if the Philippines-South Korea agreement allows a similar "loophole" to that described above for Netherlands-India, and if so, if KE/DL jointly decided that adding a DL frequency that doesn't count against the South Korea seat count would be beneficial.

I'm not entirely sure, but it may explain the increase in the total number of seats. KE probably can't get another slot for a third MNL-ICN flight, so they decided to launch daily service to CRK instead starting the end of October. But I don't think launching CRK-ICN would come at the expense of MNL-ICN or CEB-ICN or any of the flights operated by LJ/Jin Air (e.g. KLO-ICN or CEB-PUS).

If memory serves, NW used to do MNL-SEL-XXX routes back in the 1980s. I imagine all the bilaterals that followed since then, including the current one that was just signed, include similar provisions for fifth-freedom flights, and DL is using that accordingly.

South Korea and the Philippines have open skies that excludes Manila, indeed.

The latest traffic rights were given to Air Busan (950 seats weekly) and Korean Air (178 seats weekly) on last February.

Manila-Incheon route is very popular for various reasons.

So if Delta wants to provide extra capacity that allows Korean Air to indirectly expand it is plausible.

I don't know the legal side though.

obelau24 · Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:31 pm

MesabaXJ wrote:
So I was booked to take a flight form MSP-DTW-NRT-SIN on October 20th. My flights haven't changed under my reservations but I can't go and rebook these flights anymore. It also has a note that there is a change in my flight itinerary. All new bookings are showing that the flights are now going through ICN-SIN.

I'm curious. I booked Comfort + from NRT-SIN. The rest of the flights I booked economy. How would that work since DTW-ICN is on an 359 and those planes don't have Comfort +. They just have First, Economy, and Premium Select? The ICN-SIN flight is on Korean.

There is a MSP-ICN-SIN but ICN-SIN only has a 1 hour 20 minute connection. That is too close for comfort for me. One little delay and I might be stuck. I would rather change flights to allow a bit more time.

Just curious as to what people think might happen.

I can’t answer re. the Comfort+ seating but 1 hr 20 min at ICN is more than enough time. The KE terminal, while big, is easy to navigate and even if you’re delayed up to 45 minutes, you’ll still make the connection. Any further delay and DL gives you a mini vacation in ICN.

EvanWSFO · Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:32 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
NW had a hub at NRT up until the late 2000s. How sad.

Why sad? If they are not making money on the flights, why keep them just because NW once had a hub at NRT? If DL wanted to fly to the cities they are dropping at NRT, they would have already done so, or are free to start them if they have traffic rights.

Not every airline has serve every city-pair.

ITSTours · Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:33 pm

Akiestar wrote:
Air travel between the Philippines and South Korea is booming, so DL launching ICN-MNL is very exciting. KE currently flies to MNL twice daily, and a third departure would be beneficial for connections. I can see DL keeping the existing NRT schedule (departing MNL in the morning, while returning late afternoon), which would help fill gaps in KE's current schedule as they don't serve either time slot.

That said, I'll believe it when I see an official announcement.

ctrabs0114 wrote:
How are they able to offer the ICN-MNL leg? Are there fifth-freedom issues involved with this segment?

The Philippines and South Korea had just signed a new ASA, increasing seats to 28,000 weekly. This is up from 20,000 weekly in the ASA signed between the two countries two years ago.

I can't find the text of the PH-KR ASA but I imagine fifth freedom rights are covered as the Philippines has been keen on adding them to its ASAs in recent years.

That agreement was signed in 2012. Another increase in 2015 to 31500, and then the Open Skies excl. Manila in 2017.

peterinlisbon · Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:36 pm

They can't really compete within Asia - their costs are far higher than those of local carriers and there is plenty of capacity and frequency to provide connections. It makes no sense to pay expensive hotel costs for crew and to fly a half-empty widebody around Asia, just to pick up some low-yield connecting pax.

ITSTours · Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:04 pm

I see no scheduled flight for DL NRT-SIN after 9/22/2019.

So I think now this is official at least for this segment.

cessna2 · Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:22 pm

This was sent to me by a friend last night and many DL people i've met through my travels were talking about it online. Seems i'm not the only one who got the info as well.
https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-to- ... zSZmRYiWS0

MesabaXJ · Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:30 pm

First time poster here:

So I was actually supposed to be flying MSP-DTW-NRT-SIN on November 20th. I checked my reservations and it said that there was a schedule change but my original routing is still there. I tried to go through the booking again and the flights going through NRT were cancelled and showed ICN.

Question: So they haven't updated my reservation yet. I purchased Select Comfort for the NRT-SIN flight. It was cheap and figured after flights from MSP-DTW-NRT I would pay a little bit for the last leg of the reservation for such a long flight time. What do you think Delta would do to fix this situation?

mercure1 · Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:31 pm

Pretty clear DL chosen path forward to Asia across the Pacific is to serve a handful of gateway cities and utilize partners for beyond connections as an increasing number of cities (BKK, TPE, BKK now SIN) come off the DL route map.

Its an interesting path to take in the region which IATA has forecast to continue to have the largest growth over next 20-years.

berari · Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:41 pm

Why bother with sticking with service to MNL?

LAXintl · Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:47 pm

NRT-SIN segment indeed zero'd out in GDS after 9/21. They are also reducing service to 5x weekly starting 9/03

Seems to be a pretty hasty cut as its not even 60-days notice, nor the end of the IATA summer schedule season which would be a natural transition.

ITSTours · Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:50 pm

berari wrote:
Why bother with sticking with service to MNL?

Yeah, I wonder why they want to operate their own metal for MNL but not for SIN.

I guess the bilaterals matter?

United787 · Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:15 pm

Junction wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
DL wants to fly as little as possible with its own metal and instead use partners to fly beyond only the largest business markets.

That seems to be the idea, but are not HKG and SIN considered to be a couple of the world's largest business markets?

There are pros and cons to having hubs at secondary cities such as ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC and SEA. The biggest pro IMHO is monopolistic fares... hence DL's continue success in out performing it's peers, financially. The biggest con IMHO is the limitations of those markets and their ability to support flights to long haul destinations such as HKG and SIN, even with the enormous amount of connections. Sure, they also hub at LAX but that market is too fragmented between AA, UA and DL so they all have paltry networks. And of course there is JFK but AA and DL can't even support a single flight to Asia from their international hub in NYC!

MesabaXJ wrote:
So I was booked to take a flight form MSP-DTW-NRT-SIN on October 20th. My flights haven't changed under my reservations but I can't go and rebook these flights anymore. It also has a note that there is a change in my flight itinerary. All new bookings are showing that the flights are now going through ICN-SIN.

I'm curious. I booked Comfort + from NRT-SIN. The rest of the flights I booked economy. How would that work since DTW-ICN is on an 359 and those planes don't have Comfort +. They just have First, Economy, and Premium Select? The ICN-SIN flight is on Korean.

There is a MSP-ICN-SIN but ICN-SIN only has a 1 hour 20 minute connection. That is too close for comfort for me. One little delay and I might be stuck. I would rather change flights to allow a bit more time.

Just curious as to what people think might happen.

If the new routing or timing is unworkable, call them and demand a refund. I have done it before in those situations with UA and AA. If DL is half the amazing airline it's kool-aid boys say it is, DL will give you your money back. Then goto UA and book MSP-SFO-SIN.

United787 · Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:17 pm

Question: Does UA and DL lose their 5th freedom rights through NRT if they are unused?

ITSTours · Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:35 pm

United787 wrote:
Question: Does UA and DL lose their 5th freedom rights through NRT if they are unused?

US and Japan have open skies that include 5th freedom so no.

UA857 · Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:40 pm

Is Delta going to reinstate NW’s old Seoul hub by launching routes like ICN-PEK/PVG/HKG/TPE/BKK/SIN/MNL/GUM/SPN/ROR/HNL/SFO/LAX/PDX

SCFlyer · Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:45 pm

UA857 wrote:
Is Delta going to reinstate NW’s old Seoul hub by launching routes like ICN-PEK/PVG/HKG/TPE/BKK/SIN/MNL/GUM/SPN/ROR/HNL/SFO/LAX/PDX

No. Why would DL need to when the KE can do the work for them as part of the KE/DL JV?

usdcaguy · Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:05 pm

SCFlyer wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Is Delta going to reinstate NW’s old Seoul hub by launching routes like ICN-PEK/PVG/HKG/TPE/BKK/SIN/MNL/GUM/SPN/ROR/HNL/SFO/LAX/PDX

Letting KE take some of that business also makes KE a stronger partner that is more dependent on DL feed, so there are multiple ways that DL can win here at the expense of competition while cutting costs.

MesabaXJ · Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:17 pm

obelau24 wrote:
MesabaXJ wrote:
So I was booked to take a flight form MSP-DTW-NRT-SIN on October 20th. My flights haven't changed under my reservations but I can't go and rebook these flights anymore. It also has a note that there is a change in my flight itinerary. All new bookings are showing that the flights are now going through ICN-SIN.

I'm curious. I booked Comfort + from NRT-SIN. The rest of the flights I booked economy. How would that work since DTW-ICN is on an 359 and those planes don't have Comfort +. They just have First, Economy, and Premium Select? The ICN-SIN flight is on Korean.

There is a MSP-ICN-SIN but ICN-SIN only has a 1 hour 20 minute connection. That is too close for comfort for me. One little delay and I might be stuck. I would rather change flights to allow a bit more time.

Just curious as to what people think might happen.

I can’t answer re. the Comfort+ seating but 1 hr 20 min at ICN is more than enough time. The KE terminal, while big, is easy to navigate and even if you’re delayed up to 45 minutes, you’ll still make the connection. Any further delay and DL gives you a mini vacation in ICN.

--I have the same flights except NRT-SIN is now on JAL. They cancelled out the Comfort+. No idea though if I have to recheck my bags or if they will go through for me.

x1234 · Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:41 pm

Since DL is moving to ICN, KE/DL should add a morning ICN-SIN flight to the bank so when the ATL-ICN flight arrives there's no 10.5 hour layover as there currently is.

umichman · Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:58 pm

xxcr wrote:
This move was expected. DL is extremely weak in Asia compared to AA and UA. will moving all their Ops to HND help DL? does HND offer more connections via partner airlines?

How many cities does DL serve in asia compared to AA and UA??

HND is primarily for O&D passengers. They have effectively moved the former NRT hub to ICN with JV partner KE taking over the inter-asia connections.

hoons90 · Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:24 pm

x1234 wrote:
Since DL is moving to ICN, KE/DL should add a morning ICN-SIN flight to the bank so when the ATL-ICN flight arrives there's no 10.5 hour layover as there currently is.

KE36 connects with KE645. 2h20m connection.

FromCDGtoSYD · Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:45 pm

hoons90 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Since DL is moving to ICN, KE/DL should add a morning ICN-SIN flight to the bank so when the ATL-ICN flight arrives there's no 10.5 hour layover as there currently is.

KE36 connects with KE645. 2h20m connection.

More options are always nice especially when you're coming in on the early AM arrivals from ATL, JFK, LAX, SFO and LAS (even MEX whilst we're at it).

mzlin · Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:05 pm

I just have one question: Does it mean that ANA's purchase of the A380 contracts from Skymark was all for naught? Did ANA really not have any way to foresee that new slots would open up and be assigned to Delta anyway?

Well I guess that's two questions.

HeeseokKoo · Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:15 pm

Korea-Philippines is in open-sky except MNL, so KE doesn't have any room to add ICN-MNL. This route therefore doesn't have much LCC (compared to other similar-distanced routes) although airfare is already fairly low.

Korea-Singapore bilateral is fully utilized at the moment where KE is operating 17-18 weekly flights. KE might retime for better connection from/to the U.S. but it cannot add any flights. Airfare is fairly high with limited supply, which made me believe DL will add this route, but I was dead wrong.

ICN slot would be another issue. It's basically full except early in the morning or very late at night. DL was able to add flights on the prime time (ie MSP) despite the slot situation. I'm not sure whether KE is giving slots to DL, but we'll see how DL schedules MNL and whether all flights are moved to late afternoon for better connectivity.

Exciting news, indeed.

ITSTours · Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:18 pm

mzlin wrote:
I just have one question: Does it mean that ANA's purchase of the A380 contracts from Skymark was all for naught? Did ANA really not have any way to foresee that new slots would open up and be assigned to Delta anyway?

Well I guess that's two questions.

The new slots are only for international while the Skymark slots are all for domestic.

jumbojet · Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:05 pm

tell ya all something and that is, as much as I don't like UA, you have to admire their aggressiveness in the ULH market. DL is way to conservative and plays things way to safe. As much as I would love to see LAX-SIN, under the current leadership, its probably not going to happen.

KanaHawaii · Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:32 pm

Delta, along with the other airlines that do one-stop in Asia connections to places like Hong Kong or Manila, are being put under severe pressure by Chinese carriers that perform the same service except they fly through Shanghai or Beijing. And to boot, the fact that Chinese carriers can do this one-stop connection, with it costing less for passengers, that may explain why these shifts are happening with Delta.

Until something happens to the Chinese airlines that halts their growth in this market, Delta and others are going to be under pressure to find ways to make their one-stop connections in Asia profitable without getting into a losing fair war with, say, China Eastern which does a good amount of one-stop business between the US and the Philippines.

Aaron747 · Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:21 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
Crazy to see the NRT hub go away. It's just kind of strange to me. NW didn't own the airport, but they had a really strong presence. My stepdad was a regular on JFK-NRT and connecting onward. It was kind of the last piece of NW that DL held on to until recent years.

I'm really shocked to see SIN and HKG gone from the route map though. It's pretty amazing to me that an airline with such a strong domestic network really can't make two of the biggest business destinations in Asia work. I get they love the JVs, but there is something to be said about flying on your own metal. I have friends and coworkers who are loyal DL flyers who barely touch DL planes when they go overseas. I guess that old line that Delta is afraid of big planes really has something to it...

That’s one way of looking at it - but another is that DL customers get to transfer to one of the world’s best airlines on the same ticket, as KE has excellent Y and premium offerings that are above and beyond what’s normally on offer in North America.

Coal · Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:46 am

MesabaXJ wrote:
So I was booked to take a flight form MSP-DTW-NRT-SIN on October 20th. My flights haven't changed under my reservations but I can't go and rebook these flights anymore. It also has a note that there is a change in my flight itinerary. All new bookings are showing that the flights are now going through ICN-SIN.

I'm curious. I booked Comfort + from NRT-SIN. The rest of the flights I booked economy. How would that work since DTW-ICN is on an 359 and those planes don't have Comfort +. They just have First, Economy, and Premium Select? The ICN-SIN flight is on Korean.

There is a MSP-ICN-SIN but ICN-SIN only has a 1 hour 20 minute connection. That is too close for comfort for me. One little delay and I might be stuck. I would rather change flights to allow a bit more time.

Just curious as to what people think might happen.

1h20m at ICN is plenty of time. A week ago I had a 50m connection at ICN SIN-ICN-ATL on KE, my incoming flight from SIN arrived 30 mins late and I still made it with plenty of time to sip bubble while on the ground on the upper deck of a 748i. You'll be fine.

zakuivcustom · Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:46 am

KanaHawaii wrote:
Delta, along with the other airlines that do one-stop in Asia connections to places like Hong Kong or Manila, are being put under severe pressure by Chinese carriers that perform the same service except they fly through Shanghai or Beijing. And to boot, the fact that Chinese carriers can do this one-stop connection, with it costing less for passengers, that may explain why these shifts are happening with Delta.

Until something happens to the Chinese airlines that halts their growth in this market, Delta and others are going to be under pressure to find ways to make their one-stop connections in Asia profitable without getting into a losing fair war with, say, China Eastern which does a good amount of one-stop business between the US and the Philippines.

Not defending Chinese carriers, but all I'll say is, US-based airlines had been losing money on intra-Asia flights long before CN3/4/5/6 get to their current sizes. Before CN3/4/5/6 there is KE/OZ/CI/BR, then before that it's JL/NH/CX.

ITSTours wrote:
mzlin wrote:
I just have one question: Does it mean that ANA's purchase of the A380 contracts from Skymark was all for naught? Did ANA really not have any way to foresee that new slots would open up and be assigned to Delta anyway?

Well I guess that's two questions.

The new slots are only for international while the Skymark slots are all for domestic.

Adding on - ANA purchase Skymark basically to keep a competitor out of the domestic market. And as ITSTours said - it's not like Delta can use those Skymark HND slots to fly on long-haul routes anyway, as DL still need the route authority to do so.

LAXdude1023 · Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:58 am

xxcr wrote:
This move was expected. DL is extremely weak in Asia compared to AA and UA. will moving all their Ops to HND help DL? does HND offer more connections via partner airlines?

How many cities does DL serve in asia compared to AA and UA??

UA yes. I don’t see how they are compared to AA though.

jumbojet · Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:09 am

United787 wrote:
[
If the new routing or timing is unworkable, call them and demand a refund. I have done it before in those situations with UA and AA. If DL is half the amazing airline it's kool-aid boys say it is, DL will give you your money back. Then goto UA and book MSP-SFO-SIN.

UA maybe as a last resort.

Or MSP to ICN to SIN. Avoid SFO and United entirely. Get a better soft and hard product AND a better airport experience

acjbbj · Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:14 am

This is interesting to see.

SUNCTRY738 · Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:15 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
xxcr wrote:
This move was expected. DL is extremely weak in Asia compared to AA and UA. will moving all their Ops to HND help DL? does HND offer more connections via partner airlines?

How many cities does DL serve in asia compared to AA and UA??

UA yes. I don’t see how they are compared to AA though.

I agree---I call into question the assertion that DL is weak in Asia compared to AA. When did AA start flying to SIN or MNL on their own metal? Or Osaka and Nagoya in Japan themselves? AA is the smallest in Asia.

Ishrion · Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:23 am

SUNCTRY738 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
xxcr wrote:
This move was expected. DL is extremely weak in Asia compared to AA and UA. will moving all their Ops to HND help DL? does HND offer more connections via partner airlines?

How many cities does DL serve in asia compared to AA and UA??

UA yes. I don’t see how they are compared to AA though.

I agree---I call into question the assertion that DL is weak in Asia compared to AA. When did AA start flying to SIN or MNL on their own metal? Or Osaka and Nagoya in Japan themselves? AA is the smallest in Asia.

DL is in no way the weakest of the US3.

AA only flies to NRT/HND, ICN, PEK, PVG, and HKG.

DL flies to, off of the top of my mind:
NRT/HND, KIX, NGO, PEK, PVG, ICN, and MNL.
DL used to have various Micronesia routes and as we know, they’re cutting SIN.
DL recently cut HKG and HNL-FUK as well, which was picked up by CX and Hawaiian respectively.

UA flies to... NRT/HND, KIX, PEK, ICN, PVG, HKG, Various routes from Guam, and I believe has service to CTU?
UA even has fights to Xi’An and Hangzhou.

Now... if we’re including the JL/NH JV with AA/UA, DL may seem the smallest of the 3. However, they do have a solid partnership with PVG based China Eastern.

zakuivcustom · Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:35 am

Ishrion wrote:
UA flies to... NRT/HND, KIX, PEK, ICN, PVG, HKG, Various routes from Guam, and I believe has service to CTU?
UA even has fights to Xi’An and Hangzhou.

And SIN, and TPE. And yes, they still fly SFO-CTU (although no more XIY and HGH).

As for "weakest" - Before AA ended ORD-PEK/PVG and reduced frequency on ORD-NRT, they actually has more flights (in absolute number) to East Asia than DL. Nowaday AA is basically limited to DFW and LAX, though, compare to DL which fly to East Asia from SEA and DTW (The two largest gateways) along with ATL, PDX, and MSP (and HNL...but that's a different market).

FlyHPN · Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:36 am

KanaHawaii wrote:
Delta, along with the other airlines that do one-stop in Asia connections to places like Hong Kong or Manila, are being put under severe pressure by Chinese carriers that perform the same service except they fly through Shanghai or Beijing. And to boot, the fact that Chinese carriers can do this one-stop connection, with it costing less for passengers, that may explain why these shifts are happening with Delta.

Until something happens to the Chinese airlines that halts their growth in this market, Delta and others are going to be under pressure to find ways to make their one-stop connections in Asia profitable without getting into a losing fair war with, say, China Eastern which does a good amount of one-stop business between the US and the Philippines.

I really think you are on to something. I had to book a round trip in business from NYC-SIN in October a few weeks ago. Delta is flagged as our “Most Preferred Airline” in the travel portal (read: best discount). Delta wanted ~$5k for a 1 stop all on KE or 2 stop on it’s metal via NRT. China Eastern was $2,600. Delta doesn’t like low yields, which is going to continue making Asia a conundrum for them.

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