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jfern022
Posts: 168
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:29 pm

DL747400 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
There is a sizeable Philippine community in Southeast Michigan and Northwest always maintained one stop flights from Detroit.


:roll: Because continuing to do things the way they've always been done historically is such a great idea. :roll: And because everything NW did was always profitable.


That person has a perverse way of looking at things. They think DTW is the center of the universe and isn’t happy DL didn’t do everything the way failing NW did. They were on the verge of Ch 7 for a reason.

Northwest is more aligned with this clip

https://youtu.be/M-RwjNKP9PA
 
NWADTWE16
Posts: 674
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:12 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:41 pm

he is right the DTW-NRT-MNL & DTW-NGO-MNL were constantly filled with DTWMNL passengers. You can blow smoke all you want but that's a fact. Did you work there during those days, I did.
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!
 
beerbus
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:41 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:07 pm

Puissance wrote:
The economy Detroit fares to Manila were generally at least $1300 on Delta, and the published competitors with two changes of plane were only a couple of hundred dollars cheaper, so, if you weren't willing to go to Chicago or Toronto, they did have a fair number of customers from Detroit though NRT, and the yields were decent compared to Chicago at least.


CONUS to MNL mostly consists of Filipino ethnic Balikbayan traffic. (Filipino expats)

These passengers don't buy tickets on delta.com, or sites like Expedia.

They don't pay the published tariff.

Their flights are normally purchased through Balikbayan bucket shops, AKA "Consolidators" The price is unpublished, via a higher than normal commission paid to the Consolidator on the back end.

Most of the commission is used by the Consolidator to reduce the ticket price paid by the Balikbayan traveler.

The unpublished airfare is lower than the published fare, and subject to capacity controls, and strict reissue/refund policies.

NW started service to MNL in 1947, and DL has assumed an extensive relationship that goes back many years in this market.
 
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DL747400
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:31 am

NWADTWE16 wrote:
he is right the DTW-NRT-MNL & DTW-NGO-MNL were constantly filled with DTWMNL passengers.


You are correct. The MNL flights were constantly full, but the Economy cabin was filled largely with passengers traveling on heavily-discounted, low-yield consolidator tickets. NW chased market share in those days.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:21 am

As said many times previously, a full plane does not equal profit in the airline industry. While a "full plane" may look good, it can still lose money per flight if the yields are very low (aka price sensitive VFR (Visiting Family Relatives)) passengers travelling mostly on discounted tickets.

The assumed consensus is that MNL is mostly a low yielding, VFR market full of price sensitive travellers with very little business/high yield demand to subsidise the economy passengers.
 
filipinoavgeek
Posts: 256
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:18 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:45 am

SCFlyer wrote:
The assumed consensus is that MNL is mostly a low yielding, VFR market full of price sensitive travellers with very little business/high yield demand to subsidise the economy passengers.


Probably true for MNL-North America but less so for MNL-Asia.
 
LurveBus
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:21 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:08 am

SCFlyer wrote:
As said many times previously, a full plane does not equal profit in the airline industry. While a "full plane" may look good, it can still lose money per flight if the yields are very low (aka price sensitive VFR (Visiting Family Relatives)) passengers travelling mostly on discounted tickets.

The assumed consensus is that MNL is mostly a low yielding, VFR market full of price sensitive travellers with very little business/high yield demand to subsidise the economy passengers.


And yet MNL survives in the DL network over SIN. There must be some sort of yield there for it to be the lone survivor of the dismantling of the NRT hub. With all the cutting, why keep MNL? It’s not helping out KE at all since the approval granted to DL by Philippine authorities entailed that DL cannot operate flights above the existing limit, and that they have to share seats with KE.

PR for the longest time was trying to court DL for an agreement for the Philippine market with the hopes that DL will drop MNL and just connect with PR flights at HND or LAX. That hasn’t happened.
 
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SCFlyer
Posts: 289
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:49 am

LurveBus wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
As said many times previously, a full plane does not equal profit in the airline industry. While a "full plane" may look good, it can still lose money per flight if the yields are very low (aka price sensitive VFR (Visiting Family Relatives)) passengers travelling mostly on discounted tickets.

The assumed consensus is that MNL is mostly a low yielding, VFR market full of price sensitive travellers with very little business/high yield demand to subsidise the economy passengers.


And yet MNL survives in the DL network over SIN. There must be some sort of yield there for it to be the lone survivor of the dismantling of the NRT hub. With all the cutting, why keep MNL? It’s not helping out KE at all since the approval granted to DL by Philippine authorities entailed that DL cannot operate flights above the existing limit, and that they have to share seats with KE.

PR for the longest time was trying to court DL for an agreement for the Philippine market with the hopes that DL will drop MNL and just connect with PR flights at HND or LAX. That hasn’t happened.


It is believed/assumed/supposedly that the bilateral between Korea and the Philippines are full on the Korean end.
Therefore as part of the JV, it led to the decision to have DL flying a ICN-MNL frequency to get around the full bilateral restrictions on behalf of KE.
The South Korea/Philippines bilateral would have little to do with DL ending the SIN flights.

Should South Korea and Philippines be able to renegotiate their bilateral agreements to allow more capacity, KE would likely replace the DL frequency, therefore would likely lead to the end of the DL flights into MNL.
 
LurveBus
Posts: 319
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:10 pm

SCFlyer wrote:
LurveBus wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
As said many times previously, a full plane does not equal profit in the airline industry. While a "full plane" may look good, it can still lose money per flight if the yields are very low (aka price sensitive VFR (Visiting Family Relatives)) passengers travelling mostly on discounted tickets.

The assumed consensus is that MNL is mostly a low yielding, VFR market full of price sensitive travellers with very little business/high yield demand to subsidise the economy passengers.


And yet MNL survives in the DL network over SIN. There must be some sort of yield there for it to be the lone survivor of the dismantling of the NRT hub. With all the cutting, why keep MNL? It’s not helping out KE at all since the approval granted to DL by Philippine authorities entailed that DL cannot operate flights above the existing limit, and that they have to share seats with KE.

PR for the longest time was trying to court DL for an agreement for the Philippine market with the hopes that DL will drop MNL and just connect with PR flights at HND or LAX. That hasn’t happened.


It is believed/assumed/supposedly that the bilateral between Korea and the Philippines are full on the Korean end.
Therefore as part of the JV, it led to the decision to have DL flying a ICN-MNL frequency to get around the full bilateral restrictions on behalf of KE.
The South Korea/Philippines bilateral would have little to do with DL ending the SIN flights.

Should South Korea and Philippines be able to renegotiate their bilateral agreements to allow more capacity, KE would likely replace the DL frequency, therefore would likely lead to the end of the DL flights into MNL.


As I mentioned earlier on the thread, an industry insider reported that the flights were approved by Philippine Authorities using Korean, not American entitlements. Philippine authorities would not allow DL to skirt the existing limits imposed by the ROK-PH bilateral. I’d post a link, but are we allowed to link to other forums?

In any case, this would result in KE being forced to downgauge one of their flights. ICN-MNL on DL metal is coming at the expense of KE’s allocated seats. The cap to Manila under the Korean bilateral is based on seats, not frequencies.

Incidentally, KE just announced that they’re adding flights to CRK, which is another airport serving Metropolitan Manila.
 
TigerFlyer
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:51 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:21 pm

jfern022 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
There is a sizeable Philippine community in Southeast Michigan and Northwest always maintained one stop flights from Detroit.


:roll: Because continuing to do things the way they've always been done historically is such a great idea. :roll: And because everything NW did was always profitable.


That person has a perverse way of looking at things. They think DTW is the center of the universe and isn’t happy DL didn’t do everything the way failing NW did. They were on the verge of Ch 7 for a reason.

Northwest is more aligned with this clip

https://youtu.be/M-RwjNKP9PA


What are you talking about? NWA was a scrappy and shrewd little carrier that punched way above its weight. They were one of the most consistently profitable and well run U.S. carriers, but like everyone else suffered bumps and bruises during the economic cycles with too much capacity, too many carriers. Both DL and NW entered Ch11 in 2005; not Ch7. There's a lot of NW DNA in Delta. Starting with Richard Anderson on down. NW and DL led the way in industry consolidation. That idea didn't just come from the DL side. NW was already in to process of revamping its TPAC network before the merger and was the U.S. launch customer for the 787. We knew the 747 was too large, but at the time the -400 was the only aircraft that could made Asia beyond Japan nonstop. Arguably the most successful airline merger ever. Integration was fully accomplished within one year. AA and UA took years and things are still not as smooth as one would like. One carrier now, but both DL and NW saw value in each other and the power of the combined network.
 
ITSTours
Posts: 435
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:17 pm

LurveBus wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
LurveBus wrote:

And yet MNL survives in the DL network over SIN. There must be some sort of yield there for it to be the lone survivor of the dismantling of the NRT hub. With all the cutting, why keep MNL? It’s not helping out KE at all since the approval granted to DL by Philippine authorities entailed that DL cannot operate flights above the existing limit, and that they have to share seats with KE.

PR for the longest time was trying to court DL for an agreement for the Philippine market with the hopes that DL will drop MNL and just connect with PR flights at HND or LAX. That hasn’t happened.


It is believed/assumed/supposedly that the bilateral between Korea and the Philippines are full on the Korean end.
Therefore as part of the JV, it led to the decision to have DL flying a ICN-MNL frequency to get around the full bilateral restrictions on behalf of KE.
The South Korea/Philippines bilateral would have little to do with DL ending the SIN flights.

Should South Korea and Philippines be able to renegotiate their bilateral agreements to allow more capacity, KE would likely replace the DL frequency, therefore would likely lead to the end of the DL flights into MNL.


As I mentioned earlier on the thread, an industry insider reported that the flights were approved by Philippine Authorities using Korean, not American entitlements. Philippine authorities would not allow DL to skirt the existing limits imposed by the ROK-PH bilateral. I’d post a link, but are we allowed to link to other forums?

In any case, this would result in KE being forced to downgauge one of their flights. ICN-MNL on DL metal is coming at the expense of KE’s allocated seats. The cap to Manila under the Korean bilateral is based on seats, not frequencies.

Incidentally, KE just announced that they’re adding flights to CRK, which is another airport serving Metropolitan Manila.


The link will be appreciated. Did KE already downguage?
 
carlokiii
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:03 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:39 am

ITSTours wrote:
LurveBus wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:

It is believed/assumed/supposedly that the bilateral between Korea and the Philippines are full on the Korean end.
Therefore as part of the JV, it led to the decision to have DL flying a ICN-MNL frequency to get around the full bilateral restrictions on behalf of KE.
The South Korea/Philippines bilateral would have little to do with DL ending the SIN flights.

Should South Korea and Philippines be able to renegotiate their bilateral agreements to allow more capacity, KE would likely replace the DL frequency, therefore would likely lead to the end of the DL flights into MNL.


As I mentioned earlier on the thread, an industry insider reported that the flights were approved by Philippine Authorities using Korean, not American entitlements. Philippine authorities would not allow DL to skirt the existing limits imposed by the ROK-PH bilateral. I’d post a link, but are we allowed to link to other forums?

In any case, this would result in KE being forced to downgauge one of their flights. ICN-MNL on DL metal is coming at the expense of KE’s allocated seats. The cap to Manila under the Korean bilateral is based on seats, not frequencies.

Incidentally, KE just announced that they’re adding flights to CRK, which is another airport serving Metropolitan Manila.


The link will be appreciated. Did KE already downguage?

Not related to the link alleging KE down-gauging but just for information:

ICN-MNL-ICN
KE Summer 2019 schedule:
14x 773/77W (Weekly)

KE Winter 2019-2020 schedule:
14x 773/77W + 4x A333 (weekly)

KE Summer 2020 schedule loaded (so far):
14x 773/77W (weekly)

DL's ICN-MNL-ICN conveniently commences at Summer 2020 too but when compared to Summer 2019, there's no indication KE is down-gauging ICN-MNL-ICN (at least as of this writing). Of course schedules can change closer to March 2020.
 
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idp5601
Posts: 196
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:20 am

ITSTours wrote:
LurveBus wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:

It is believed/assumed/supposedly that the bilateral between Korea and the Philippines are full on the Korean end.
Therefore as part of the JV, it led to the decision to have DL flying a ICN-MNL frequency to get around the full bilateral restrictions on behalf of KE.
The South Korea/Philippines bilateral would have little to do with DL ending the SIN flights.

Should South Korea and Philippines be able to renegotiate their bilateral agreements to allow more capacity, KE would likely replace the DL frequency, therefore would likely lead to the end of the DL flights into MNL.


As I mentioned earlier on the thread, an industry insider reported that the flights were approved by Philippine Authorities using Korean, not American entitlements. Philippine authorities would not allow DL to skirt the existing limits imposed by the ROK-PH bilateral. I’d post a link, but are we allowed to link to other forums?

In any case, this would result in KE being forced to downgauge one of their flights. ICN-MNL on DL metal is coming at the expense of KE’s allocated seats. The cap to Manila under the Korean bilateral is based on seats, not frequencies.

Incidentally, KE just announced that they’re adding flights to CRK, which is another airport serving Metropolitan Manila.


The link will be appreciated. Did KE already downguage?


Not OP, but here you go.
 
Puissance
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:44 pm

SCFlyer wrote:
As said many times previously, a full plane does not equal profit in the airline industry. While a "full plane" may look good, it can still lose money per flight if the yields are very low (aka price sensitive VFR (Visiting Family Relatives)) passengers travelling mostly on discounted tickets.

The assumed consensus is that MNL is mostly a low yielding, VFR market full of price sensitive travellers with very little business/high yield demand to subsidise the economy passengers.


Yes, the point I was making about DTW was that tickets to MNL on DL (VFR traffic) are generally high for that type of ticket ($1300+), yet the small, but not insubstantial community in Michigan is generally paying that price and flying on DL with only some leakage to Chicago and elsewhere where tickets can be much lower ($600-800 r/t). The connections from DTW on other carriers are not priced appealingly, and the cheapest connections on Google flights usually involve Delta flying you to the West Coast to connect with a Chinese or Taiwanese carrier.

Flying to and from DTW, the new routes through Korea have much less appealing layovers or departure times than the current ideal schedule through NRT. It will be interesting to see if VFR traffic will still pay a premium for a fairly unappetizing schedule to DTW.

I think the role of the traditional consolidator has diminished over the years. Most of my friends from the Philippines are buying through the internet, and the traditional consolidators are not offering anything special, especially compared to Online Travel Agencies. DL retiring the 747 has reduced their surplus to Asia much of the time.
 
ITSTours
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:12 pm

idp5601 wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
LurveBus wrote:

As I mentioned earlier on the thread, an industry insider reported that the flights were approved by Philippine Authorities using Korean, not American entitlements. Philippine authorities would not allow DL to skirt the existing limits imposed by the ROK-PH bilateral. I’d post a link, but are we allowed to link to other forums?

In any case, this would result in KE being forced to downgauge one of their flights. ICN-MNL on DL metal is coming at the expense of KE’s allocated seats. The cap to Manila under the Korean bilateral is based on seats, not frequencies.

Incidentally, KE just announced that they’re adding flights to CRK, which is another airport serving Metropolitan Manila.


The link will be appreciated. Did KE already downguage?


Not OP, but here you go.


Thanks. It is hard to believe that Korean Air can concede their traffic right to Delta. DL isn't a South Korean carrier, and KE can't even give it to OZ even if they wanted to.

But anyway we can see if Korean Air downgauges. Someone up here observed no evidence of downgauging yet.
 
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flymco753
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:21 pm

Puissance wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
As said many times previously, a full plane does not equal profit in the airline industry. While a "full plane" may look good, it can still lose money per flight if the yields are very low (aka price sensitive VFR (Visiting Family Relatives)) passengers travelling mostly on discounted tickets.

The assumed consensus is that MNL is mostly a low yielding, VFR market full of price sensitive travellers with very little business/high yield demand to subsidise the economy passengers.


Yes, the point I was making about DTW was that tickets to MNL on DL (VFR traffic) are generally high for that type of ticket ($1300+), yet the small, but not insubstantial community in Michigan is generally paying that price and flying on DL with only some leakage to Chicago and elsewhere where tickets can be much lower ($600-800 r/t). The connections from DTW on other carriers are not priced appealingly, and the cheapest connections on Google flights usually involve Delta flying you to the West Coast to connect with a Chinese or Taiwanese carrier.

Flying to and from DTW, the new routes through Korea have much less appealing layovers or departure times than the current ideal schedule through NRT. It will be interesting to see if VFR traffic will still pay a premium for a fairly unappetizing schedule to DTW.

I think the role of the traditional consolidator has diminished over the years. Most of my friends from the Philippines are buying through the internet, and the traditional consolidators are not offering anything special, especially compared to Online Travel Agencies. DL retiring the 747 has reduced their surplus to Asia much of the time.
ANA or JAL could make it appealing enough. It's certainly not a market to sleep on.
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jfklganyc
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:56 pm

How long can Delta continue to ignore the JFKHND market?

just curious.

it has to be the biggest hole in their network from NY
 
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mercure1
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:10 am

I saw news that Delta Asia managing director Osumi Victor states they have leased HND lounge space (former TIAT lounge 4th floor) which closed in July and it will be renovated as 824 square meter Delta Sky Club with plan to open "by July 2020".
Until it opens DL customers will use the existing TIAT lounge located on 5th floor.
mercure f-wtcc
 
jfk777
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:41 am

mercure1 wrote:
I saw news that Delta Asia managing director Osumi Victor states they have leased HND lounge space (former TIAT lounge 4th floor) which closed in July and it will be renovated as 824 square meter Delta Sky Club with plan to open "by July 2020".
Until it opens DL customers will use the existing TIAT lounge located on 5th floor.


Let the "bursting at the seems" begin, all these new Haneda flights, which are moving from multiple terminals at Narita, are being squeezed into one terminal at HND, the International terminal. It was already crowded before all the Delta & United flights moving over. Its also new HND flights from other countries. It's nice the Japanese found all these new HND slots but they didn't upgrade the size of the terminal for the additional planes. I was there in August and its crowded at HND especially with the flights from other Asian airlines. Can't wait to see how it turns out next summer during the Olympics.
 
incitatus
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:45 am

jfklganyc wrote:
How long can Delta continue to ignore the JFKHND market?

just curious.

it has to be the biggest hole in their network from NY


Who besides you says this is a big hole in their network? Delta has no partner at the Japan end. If they decide to fly to Asia from NY, they might be better off flying JFK-ICN for those NY customers who want to be on Delta metal most of the way on their journey to Asia. Even a JV is not metal neutral from the customer perspective.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:18 am

Who besides me?

NY and Tokyo are two of the most important cities in the world.

What would you think of DL if they didnt fly from NY to Paris or London? This is the third city in that sentence.

It is bizarre.

Partners aside, Seoul doesnt even come close in terms of significance.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:44 am

jfk777 wrote:
Let the "bursting at the seems" begin, all these new Haneda flights, which are moving from multiple terminals at Narita, are being squeezed into one terminal at HND, the International terminal. It was already crowded before all the Delta & United flights moving over. Its also new HND flights from other countries. It's nice the Japanese found all these new HND slots but they didn't upgrade the size of the terminal for the additional planes. I was there in August and its crowded at HND especially with the flights from other Asian airlines. Can't wait to see how it turns out next summer during the Olympics.


ANA is leaving the international terminal. They will consolidate into T-2 with their domestic ops as new international wing open in March.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Guillaume787
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:29 am

LAXintl wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Let the "bursting at the seems" begin, all these new Haneda flights, which are moving from multiple terminals at Narita, are being squeezed into one terminal at HND, the International terminal. It was already crowded before all the Delta & United flights moving over. Its also new HND flights from other countries. It's nice the Japanese found all these new HND slots but they didn't upgrade the size of the terminal for the additional planes. I was there in August and its crowded at HND especially with the flights from other Asian airlines. Can't wait to see how it turns out next summer during the Olympics.


ANA is leaving the international terminal. They will consolidate into T-2 with their domestic ops as new international wing open in March.


ANA will still use the International Terminal (to be renamed Terminal 3 by March 2020) and Terminal 2 for international flights:

https://www.ana.co.jp/en/jp/internation ... aneda2020/
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:17 am

jfk777 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
I saw news that Delta Asia managing director Osumi Victor states they have leased HND lounge space (former TIAT lounge 4th floor) which closed in July and it will be renovated as 824 square meter Delta Sky Club with plan to open "by July 2020".
Until it opens DL customers will use the existing TIAT lounge located on 5th floor.


Let the "bursting at the seems" begin, all these new Haneda flights, which are moving from multiple terminals at Narita, are being squeezed into one terminal at HND, the International terminal. It was already crowded before all the Delta & United flights moving over. Its also new HND flights from other countries. It's nice the Japanese found all these new HND slots but they didn't upgrade the size of the terminal for the additional planes. I was there in August and its crowded at HND especially with the flights from other Asian airlines. Can't wait to see how it turns out next summer during the Olympics.


I was there about a month ago and saw some construction work going on around the western pier, are they adding gates ?

One thing is for sure, the arrivals hall is terribly cramped, at least staff is proactive when it comes to opening up new immigration counters when the queue starts getting long.

Also, I'm guessing ST members will relocate to the DL lounge ? AF and KE have been using the JAL lounge until now I believe.
 
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mercure1
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:47 am

International terminal will get 2 additional gates while ANA will get 7 international capable gates in Terminal 2.

Huge benefit for ANA allowing domestic connections under same roof avoiding hassle and time loss in bus transfer from international terminal.
mercure f-wtcc
 
questions
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:30 am

[threeid][/threeid]
jfklganyc wrote:
Who besides me?

NY and Tokyo are two of the most important cities in the world.

What would you think of DL if they didnt fly from NY to Paris or London? This is the third city in that sentence.

It is bizarre.

Partners aside, Seoul doesnt even come close in terms of significance.


Agree.

Some would argue the 788 would have been perfect for DL for this route. Long and thin.
 
ITSTours
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:42 am

questions wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
jfklganyc wrote:
Who besides me?

NY and Tokyo are two of the most important cities in the world.

What would you think of DL if they didnt fly from NY to Paris or London? This is the third city in that sentence.

It is bizarre.

Partners aside, Seoul doesnt even come close in terms of significance.


Agree.

Some would argue the 788 would have been perfect for DL for this route. Long and thin.


Thin demand between the most important cities. Seems contradictory.

By the way, SEL-NYC one-way passenger number (376314/year) is actually larger than TYO-NYC passenger number (350706/year) in 2018.
 
Aceskywalker
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:29 am

questions wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
jfklganyc wrote:
Who besides me?

NY and Tokyo are two of the most important cities in the world.

What would you think of DL if they didnt fly from NY to Paris or London? This is the third city in that sentence.

It is bizarre.

Partners aside, Seoul doesnt even come close in terms of significance.


Agree.

Some would argue the 788 would have been perfect for DL for this route. Long and thin.


Or the canned A350-800, since its increasingly unlikely for DL to acquire any new Boeing airplanes, WB or NB.
 
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AirAfreak
Posts: 959
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:07 am

jfklganyc wrote:
Who besides me?

NY and Tokyo are two of the most important cities in the world.

What would you think of DL if they didnt fly from NY to Paris or London? This is the third city in that sentence.

It is bizarre.

Partners aside, Seoul doesnt even come close in terms of significance.



Seoul is today what Tokyo used to be:

+ Seoul (Google it) is the world’s 6th most expensive city;
+ Seoul commands the highest demand of the lucrative multi-billion dollar cosmetic tourism industry in all of Asia (Chinese $$$ chooses Korea over Beverly Hills);
+ Seoul currently offers its’ passengers the option to purchase a First Class cabin product to 36 nonstop international destinations worldwide (across 9 global airlines) due to local demand; more than Tokyo,
+ Seoul - Nairobi, Seoul - Zagreb, Seoul - Tripoli, Seoul - Da Nang, Seoul - Phuket; Tokyo was either late/non-existent to the “game” thanks to the delay of JAL and ANA;
+ Prior to DELTA/Korean Air J/V and UNITED/ANA J/V, Korean Air retains the status of Asia’s largest airline across the Pacific to more destinations departing Seoul than any airline on departure from Tokyo; obviously without codeshares and J/V’s, one will see that Korean Air still remains #1 across the Pacific which confirms that Seoul is stronger than Tokyo.
+ Seoul commands multiple daily nonstop A380 flights to Los Angeles and New York, for example, versus multiple 77W and 787 nonstop flights to Tokyo;
+ Korean Air have maintained multiple A380 daily flights with only 409 seats (low-density configurations) which clearly says that Seoul commands more $$$ than Tokyo because KE have not made any passenger cabin seat increases since delivery.

In conclusion, Tokyo is not what it used to be. I highly encourage you to subscribe to The Japan Times for more insight.
Korean Air | Excellence in Flight.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5474
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:56 am

No doubt that Seoul has arrived (as has S Korea), And they now face the same stagnation of population that Japan faces.

That said, Tokyo is a much bigger city. Globally and economically and culturally more important. But I do concede that Seoul has made huge gains over the last 30 years.

Again, this is a giant hole out of NY for them along with several others in Asia
 
tphuang
Posts: 3239
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:01 pm

AirAfreak wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Who besides me?

NY and Tokyo are two of the most important cities in the world.

What would you think of DL if they didnt fly from NY to Paris or London? This is the third city in that sentence.

It is bizarre.

Partners aside, Seoul doesnt even come close in terms of significance.



Seoul is today what Tokyo used to be:

+ Seoul (Google it) is the world’s 6th most expensive city;
+ Seoul commands the highest demand of the lucrative multi-billion dollar cosmetic tourism industry in all of Asia (Chinese $$$ chooses Korea over Beverly Hills);
+ Seoul currently offers its’ passengers the option to purchase a First Class cabin product to 36 nonstop international destinations worldwide (across 9 global airlines) due to local demand; more than Tokyo,
+ Seoul - Nairobi, Seoul - Zagreb, Seoul - Tripoli, Seoul - Da Nang, Seoul - Phuket; Tokyo was either late/non-existent to the “game” thanks to the delay of JAL and ANA;
+ Prior to DELTA/Korean Air J/V and UNITED/ANA J/V, Korean Air retains the status of Asia’s largest airline across the Pacific to more destinations departing Seoul than any airline on departure from Tokyo; obviously without codeshares and J/V’s, one will see that Korean Air still remains #1 across the Pacific which confirms that Seoul is stronger than Tokyo.
+ Seoul commands multiple daily nonstop A380 flights to Los Angeles and New York, for example, versus multiple 77W and 787 nonstop flights to Tokyo;
+ Korean Air have maintained multiple A380 daily flights with only 409 seats (low-density configurations) which clearly says that Seoul commands more $$$ than Tokyo because KE have not made any passenger cabin seat increases since delivery.

In conclusion, Tokyo is not what it used to be. I highly encourage you to subscribe to The Japan Times for more insight.

This shows a total ignorance of how important Tokyo is to NYC businesses. This is truly amazing stuff. Huge hole in DL network.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1114
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:20 pm

tphuang wrote:
AirAfreak wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Who besides me?

NY and Tokyo are two of the most important cities in the world.

What would you think of DL if they didnt fly from NY to Paris or London? This is the third city in that sentence.

It is bizarre.

Partners aside, Seoul doesnt even come close in terms of significance.


Seoul is today what Tokyo used to be:

+ Seoul (Google it) is the world’s 6th most expensive city;
+ Seoul commands the highest demand of the lucrative multi-billion dollar cosmetic tourism industry in all of Asia (Chinese $$$ chooses Korea over Beverly Hills);
+ Seoul currently offers its’ passengers the option to purchase a First Class cabin product to 36 nonstop international destinations worldwide (across 9 global airlines) due to local demand; more than Tokyo,
+ Seoul - Nairobi, Seoul - Zagreb, Seoul - Tripoli, Seoul - Da Nang, Seoul - Phuket; Tokyo was either late/non-existent to the “game” thanks to the delay of JAL and ANA;
+ Prior to DELTA/Korean Air J/V and UNITED/ANA J/V, Korean Air retains the status of Asia’s largest airline across the Pacific to more destinations departing Seoul than any airline on departure from Tokyo; obviously without codeshares and J/V’s, one will see that Korean Air still remains #1 across the Pacific which confirms that Seoul is stronger than Tokyo.
+ Seoul commands multiple daily nonstop A380 flights to Los Angeles and New York, for example, versus multiple 77W and 787 nonstop flights to Tokyo;
+ Korean Air have maintained multiple A380 daily flights with only 409 seats (low-density configurations) which clearly says that Seoul commands more $$$ than Tokyo because KE have not made any passenger cabin seat increases since delivery.

In conclusion, Tokyo is not what it used to be. I highly encourage you to subscribe to The Japan Times for more insight.

This shows a total ignorance of how important Tokyo is to NYC businesses. This is truly amazing stuff. Huge hole in DL network.


Japan is also still the 3rd largest economy in the world with Tokyo as the largest metro in the world even if it isn’t #1 in Asian cosmetics tourism.
 
bkflyguy
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:32 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
No doubt that Seoul has arrived (as has S Korea), And they now face the same stagnation of population that Japan faces.

That said, Tokyo is a much bigger city. Globally and economically and culturally more important. But I do concede that Seoul has made huge gains over the last 30 years.

Again, this is a giant hole out of NY for them along with several others in Asia


I agree and would think that corporate contracts would demand Tokyo. On the other hand, they may have contracts with ANA/JAL that are too favorable to re-open for bidding?
 
questions
Posts: 2025
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:35 pm

ITSTours wrote:
questions wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
jfklganyc wrote:
Who besides me?

NY and Tokyo are two of the most important cities in the world.

What would you think of DL if they didnt fly from NY to Paris or London? This is the third city in that sentence.

It is bizarre.

Partners aside, Seoul doesnt even come close in terms of significance.


Agree.

Some would argue the 788 would have been perfect for DL for this route. Long and thin.


Thin demand between the most important cities. Seems contradictory.

By the way, SEL-NYC one-way passenger number (376314/year) is actually larger than TYO-NYC passenger number (350706/year) in 2018.


Long and thin as it relates to DL, not the overall market.
 
ITSTours
Posts: 435
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:43 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
No doubt that Seoul has arrived (as has S Korea), And they now face the same stagnation of population that Japan faces.

That said, Tokyo is a much bigger city. Globally and economically and culturally more important. But I do concede that Seoul has made huge gains over the last 30 years.

Again, this is a giant hole out of NY for them along with several others in Asia


Economically sure. Culturally? What? On which basis?
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 603
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:44 pm

jfern022 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
There is a sizeable Philippine community in Southeast Michigan and Northwest always maintained one stop flights from Detroit.


:roll: Because continuing to do things the way they've always been done historically is such a great idea. :roll: And because everything NW did was always profitable.


That person has a perverse way of looking at things. They think DTW is the center of the universe and isn’t happy DL didn’t do everything the way failing NW did. They were on the verge of Ch 7 for a reason.

Northwest is more aligned with this clip

https://youtu.be/M-RwjNKP9PA


I didn't look at your clip, but I will tell you that for the contrarians on a.net, NW was the airline to go to. I'm from Montana and my mother worked for NW in the '40s. That airline was always Minnesota-straight, I kid you not. No such airlines exist any more, neither Delta the peach of the south, nor UA or AA, the courier boys that keep America together. Midwest integrity. You cannot put it in a bottle. Then Al Checchi came in, after Donald Nyrop, god forbid. After that it's never been Northwest any more, long as we may lament it! Delta is just a faint emanation.
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 603
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:50 pm

questions wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
questions wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]

Agree.

Some would argue the 788 would have been perfect for DL for this route. Long and thin.


Thin demand between the most important cities. Seems contradictory.

By the way, SEL-NYC one-way passenger number (376314/year) is actually larger than TYO-NYC passenger number (350706/year) in 2018.


Long and thin as it relates to DL, not the overall market.


They are not stupid at DL, and they have access to a lot of data that you will never see. NYC-TKO is not worth it to them at the moment. They don't have to do everything, and as of next March they will have 7 (? correct) N/S's per day from HND to the US, right? MSP, LAX, PDX, SEA, DTW, LAX, and one more? ATL, right? And with KE how many daily frequencies USA to ICN. Don't know about PVG and MU, but DL can prosper at ICN, no doubt in my mind.
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 541
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:16 pm

spinotter wrote:
questions wrote:
ITSTours wrote:

Thin demand between the most important cities. Seems contradictory.

By the way, SEL-NYC one-way passenger number (376314/year) is actually larger than TYO-NYC passenger number (350706/year) in 2018.


Long and thin as it relates to DL, not the overall market.


They are not stupid at DL, and they have access to a lot of data that you will never see. NYC-TKO is not worth it to them at the moment. They don't have to do everything, and as of next March they will have 7 (? correct) N/S's per day from HND to the US, right? MSP, LAX, PDX, SEA, DTW, LAX, and one more? ATL, right? And with KE how many daily frequencies USA to ICN. Don't know about PVG and MU, but DL can prosper at ICN, no doubt in my mind.


I think the question being asked is not 'Why can't DL run NYC-TYO'. The answer to that is what you've laid out, that DL feels the money to be made there is less than what they can do elsewhere.

The question being asked is why can't DL make NYC-TYO work? Now, maybe they have higher threshold of profitabiltiy they want compared to UA out of EWR, but on its face a massive airline with some degree of hub/connecting feed should be able to make NYC - TYO work.

The fact that DL (and AA) can't is peculiar.
 
User avatar
AirAfreak
Posts: 959
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:20 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:08 am

tphuang wrote:
AirAfreak wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Who besides me?

NY and Tokyo are two of the most important cities in the world.

What would you think of DL if they didnt fly from NY to Paris or London? This is the third city in that sentence.

It is bizarre.

Partners aside, Seoul doesnt even come close in terms of significance.



Seoul is today what Tokyo used to be:

+ Seoul (Google it) is the world’s 6th most expensive city;
+ Seoul commands the highest demand of the lucrative multi-billion dollar cosmetic tourism industry in all of Asia (Chinese $$$ chooses Korea over Beverly Hills);
+ Seoul currently offers its’ passengers the option to purchase a First Class cabin product to 36 nonstop international destinations worldwide (across 9 global airlines) due to local demand; more than Tokyo,
+ Seoul - Nairobi, Seoul - Zagreb, Seoul - Tripoli, Seoul - Da Nang, Seoul - Phuket; Tokyo was either late/non-existent to the “game” thanks to the delay of JAL and ANA;
+ Prior to DELTA/Korean Air J/V and UNITED/ANA J/V, Korean Air retains the status of Asia’s largest airline across the Pacific to more destinations departing Seoul than any airline on departure from Tokyo; obviously without codeshares and J/V’s, one will see that Korean Air still remains #1 across the Pacific which confirms that Seoul is stronger than Tokyo.
+ Seoul commands multiple daily nonstop A380 flights to Los Angeles and New York, for example, versus multiple 77W and 787 nonstop flights to Tokyo;
+ Korean Air have maintained multiple A380 daily flights with only 409 seats (low-density configurations) which clearly says that Seoul commands more $$$ than Tokyo because KE have not made any passenger cabin seat increases since delivery.

In conclusion, Tokyo is not what it used to be. I highly encourage you to subscribe to The Japan Times for more insight.

This shows a total ignorance of how important Tokyo is to NYC businesses. This is truly amazing stuff. Huge hole in DL network.


Clearly DELTA no longer views Tokyo as a huge hole within the DL Network otherwise the flights would remain; DELTA has yet to announce a resumption of Tokyo to JFK services.
Korean Air | Excellence in Flight.
 
User avatar
AirAfreak
Posts: 959
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:20 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:29 am

SFOtoORD wrote:
tphuang wrote:
AirAfreak wrote:

Seoul is today what Tokyo used to be:

+ Seoul (Google it) is the world’s 6th most expensive city;
+ Seoul commands the highest demand of the lucrative multi-billion dollar cosmetic tourism industry in all of Asia (Chinese $$$ chooses Korea over Beverly Hills);
+ Seoul currently offers its’ passengers the option to purchase a First Class cabin product to 36 nonstop international destinations worldwide (across 9 global airlines) due to local demand; more than Tokyo,
+ Seoul - Nairobi, Seoul - Zagreb, Seoul - Tripoli, Seoul - Da Nang, Seoul - Phuket; Tokyo was either late/non-existent to the “game” thanks to the delay of JAL and ANA;
+ Prior to DELTA/Korean Air J/V and UNITED/ANA J/V, Korean Air retains the status of Asia’s largest airline across the Pacific to more destinations departing Seoul than any airline on departure from Tokyo; obviously without codeshares and J/V’s, one will see that Korean Air still remains #1 across the Pacific which confirms that Seoul is stronger than Tokyo.
+ Seoul commands multiple daily nonstop A380 flights to Los Angeles and New York, for example, versus multiple 77W and 787 nonstop flights to Tokyo;
+ Korean Air have maintained multiple A380 daily flights with only 409 seats (low-density configurations) which clearly says that Seoul commands more $$$ than Tokyo because KE have not made any passenger cabin seat increases since delivery.

In conclusion, Tokyo is not what it used to be. I highly encourage you to subscribe to The Japan Times for more insight.

This shows a total ignorance of how important Tokyo is to NYC businesses. This is truly amazing stuff. Huge hole in DL network.


Japan is also still the 3rd largest economy in the world with Tokyo as the largest metro in the world even if it isn’t #1 in Asian cosmetics tourism.


Though, Japan remains at #3 within the global economic scale, Seoul is higher yielding; commands higher average fares; profits from their multi-billion $$$ cosmetic industry; Tokyo is yesterday
Korean Air | Excellence in Flight.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5474
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:34 am

dmstorm22 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
questions wrote:

Long and thin as it relates to DL, not the overall market.


They are not stupid at DL, and they have access to a lot of data that you will never see. NYC-TKO is not worth it to them at the moment. They don't have to do everything, and as of next March they will have 7 (? correct) N/S's per day from HND to the US, right? MSP, LAX, PDX, SEA, DTW, LAX, and one more? ATL, right? And with KE how many daily frequencies USA to ICN. Don't know about PVG and MU, but DL can prosper at ICN, no doubt in my mind.


I think the question being asked is not 'Why can't DL run NYC-TYO'. The answer to that is what you've laid out, that DL feels the money to be made there is less than what they can do elsewhere.

The question being asked is why can't DL make NYC-TYO work? Now, maybe they have higher threshold of profitabiltiy they want compared to UA out of EWR, but on its face a massive airline with some degree of hub/connecting feed should be able to make NYC - TYO work.

The fact that DL (and AA) can't is peculiar.


Dont bring AA into the mix

They have a whole other thing going on with their operation...they are steadily de hubbing NYC. Their commitment to anything NYC is questionable.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 250
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:05 am

AirAfreak wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
tphuang wrote:
This shows a total ignorance of how important Tokyo is to NYC businesses. This is truly amazing stuff. Huge hole in DL network.


Japan is also still the 3rd largest economy in the world with Tokyo as the largest metro in the world even if it isn’t #1 in Asian cosmetics tourism.


Though, Japan remains at #3 within the global economic scale, Seoul is higher yielding; commands higher average fares; profits from their multi-billion $$$ cosmetic industry; Tokyo is yesterday


And if Korea ever reunified under the South Korean government (not happening anytime soon), Korea would be in prime position to surpass Japan economically.

Plus, having a unified KE long haul operation at ICN is far superior to the split JL/NH Tokyo ops at HND/NRT
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1114
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:50 pm

AirAfreak wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
tphuang wrote:
This shows a total ignorance of how important Tokyo is to NYC businesses. This is truly amazing stuff. Huge hole in DL network.


Japan is also still the 3rd largest economy in the world with Tokyo as the largest metro in the world even if it isn’t #1 in Asian cosmetics tourism.


Though, Japan remains at #3 within the global economic scale, Seoul is higher yielding; commands higher average fares; profits from their multi-billion $$$ cosmetic industry; Tokyo is yesterday


Pretty sure cosmetics aren’t pushing any country’s gdp over the line. Tokyo is Tokyo irrespective of the growth in Seoul and South Korea’s #11 GDP.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2893
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:34 pm

tphuang wrote:
[
This shows a total ignorance of how important Tokyo is to NYC businesses. This is truly amazing stuff. Huge hole in DL network.


to you its ignorant, to DL its not. It was a tough call for DL to make but was one that had to be made.

JFK is unique in that just about every international airline flies into/out of JFK. That makes for a heck of a lot of competition and that coupled with DL not having a partner to dance with on the Japan side pretty much means it became a route not worth flying due to the economics. Should DL fly JFK-TYO just for the heck of it fully knowing they will lose money? They can easily fill the plane but at what cost?

I can absolutely see JFK-TYO coming back as well as SIN flights on their own metal. They obviously need the right aircraft. Once they have the right aircraft, then we will see a lot more than just TYO and SIN flights. They simply don't have the right aircraft now.
 
tphuang
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:41 pm

jumbojet wrote:
tphuang wrote:
[
This shows a total ignorance of how important Tokyo is to NYC businesses. This is truly amazing stuff. Huge hole in DL network.


to you its ignorant, to DL its not. It was a tough call for DL to make but was one that had to be made.

JFK is unique in that just about every international airline flies into/out of JFK. That makes for a heck of a lot of competition and that coupled with DL not having a partner to dance with on the Japan side pretty much means it became a route not worth flying due to the economics. Should DL fly JFK-TYO just for the heck of it fully knowing they will lose money? They can easily fill the plane but at what cost?

I can absolutely see JFK-TYO coming back as well as SIN flights on their own metal. They obviously need the right aircraft. Once they have the right aircraft, then we will see a lot more than just TYO and SIN flights. They simply don't have the right aircraft now.


I'm not saying DL is ignorant. It obviously has made its own calculation on the matter just as it has made its own calculation BOM is worth it. But the ignorant part is saying that Seoul is somehow more important than Tokyo, which is clearly not true if you are a business in NYC. Even if China, Korea and India have more seat to NYC at some point, they will still not be anywhere near the business destination that Tokyo is. Go to any major finance firms in NYC and check it out.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 250
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:42 pm

jumbojet wrote:
tphuang wrote:
[
This shows a total ignorance of how important Tokyo is to NYC businesses. This is truly amazing stuff. Huge hole in DL network.


to you its ignorant, to DL its not. It was a tough call for DL to make but was one that had to be made.

JFK is unique in that just about every international airline flies into/out of JFK. That makes for a heck of a lot of competition and that coupled with DL not having a partner to dance with on the Japan side pretty much means it became a route not worth flying due to the economics. Should DL fly JFK-TYO just for the heck of it fully knowing they will lose money? They can easily fill the plane but at what cost?

I can absolutely see JFK-TYO coming back as well as SIN flights on their own metal. They obviously need the right aircraft. Once they have the right aircraft, then we will see a lot more than just TYO and SIN flights. They simply don't have the right aircraft now.


Pretty much the only way they could make those routes work would be if they ordered the 787, and since DL has not shown any serious interest in the aircraft, they probably won’t be flying those.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2893
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:15 pm

tphuang wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
tphuang wrote:
[
This shows a total ignorance of how important Tokyo is to NYC businesses. This is truly amazing stuff. Huge hole in DL network.


to you its ignorant, to DL its not. It was a tough call for DL to make but was one that had to be made.

JFK is unique in that just about every international airline flies into/out of JFK. That makes for a heck of a lot of competition and that coupled with DL not having a partner to dance with on the Japan side pretty much means it became a route not worth flying due to the economics. Should DL fly JFK-TYO just for the heck of it fully knowing they will lose money? They can easily fill the plane but at what cost?

I can absolutely see JFK-TYO coming back as well as SIN flights on their own metal. They obviously need the right aircraft. Once they have the right aircraft, then we will see a lot more than just TYO and SIN flights. They simply don't have the right aircraft now.


I'm not saying DL is ignorant. It obviously has made its own calculation on the matter just as it has made its own calculation BOM is worth it. But the ignorant part is saying that Seoul is somehow more important than Tokyo, which is clearly not true if you are a business in NYC. Even if China, Korea and India have more seat to NYC at some point, they will still not be anywhere near the business destination that Tokyo is. Go to any major finance firms in NYC and check it out.


DL did the math. A NS JFK-TYO flight is simply not viable to them at this point. Kudos to DL for making that call. You can still fly DL metal to TYO from MSP, ATL, DTW, LAX, SEA, HNL and PDX. While a NS would be nice, its not as ignorant as you claim it to be plus, believe it or not, there are plenty of people, and I have met them, that would still prefer to fly DL out of NY to TYO and connect.

If DL had taken delivery of those 787's, would they have a 788 on JFK-TYO? Very possible. When, not if, DL gets the right aircraft, they will re-commence a JFK-TYO flight. It will obviously be HND so they will also have to rely on getting additional slots.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:31 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
AirAfreak wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:

Japan is also still the 3rd largest economy in the world with Tokyo as the largest metro in the world even if it isn’t #1 in Asian cosmetics tourism.


Though, Japan remains at #3 within the global economic scale, Seoul is higher yielding; commands higher average fares; profits from their multi-billion $$$ cosmetic industry; Tokyo is yesterday


And if Korea ever reunified under the South Korean government (not happening anytime soon), Korea would be in prime position to surpass Japan economically.

Plus, having a unified KE long haul operation at ICN is far superior to the split JL/NH Tokyo ops at HND/NRT


Not for generations (plural) after unification. North Korea will be a decades-long dumpster fire of education and infrastructure investment. The combined population is nowhere near Japan's, nor is labor productivity. It's far, far beyond the window of air carrier hub planning.
 
tphuang
Posts: 3239
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:48 pm

jumbojet wrote:
tphuang wrote:
jumbojet wrote:

to you its ignorant, to DL its not. It was a tough call for DL to make but was one that had to be made.

JFK is unique in that just about every international airline flies into/out of JFK. That makes for a heck of a lot of competition and that coupled with DL not having a partner to dance with on the Japan side pretty much means it became a route not worth flying due to the economics. Should DL fly JFK-TYO just for the heck of it fully knowing they will lose money? They can easily fill the plane but at what cost?

I can absolutely see JFK-TYO coming back as well as SIN flights on their own metal. They obviously need the right aircraft. Once they have the right aircraft, then we will see a lot more than just TYO and SIN flights. They simply don't have the right aircraft now.


I'm not saying DL is ignorant. It obviously has made its own calculation on the matter just as it has made its own calculation BOM is worth it. But the ignorant part is saying that Seoul is somehow more important than Tokyo, which is clearly not true if you are a business in NYC. Even if China, Korea and India have more seat to NYC at some point, they will still not be anywhere near the business destination that Tokyo is. Go to any major finance firms in NYC and check it out.


DL did the math. A NS JFK-TYO flight is simply not viable to them at this point. Kudos to DL for making that call. You can still fly DL metal to TYO from MSP, ATL, DTW, LAX, SEA, HNL and PDX. While a NS would be nice, its not as ignorant as you claim it to be plus, believe it or not, there are plenty of people, and I have met them, that would still prefer to fly DL out of NY to TYO and connect.

If DL had taken delivery of those 787's, would they have a 788 on JFK-TYO? Very possible. When, not if, DL gets the right aircraft, they will re-commence a JFK-TYO flight. It will obviously be HND so they will also have to rely on getting additional slots.

Again, read what I wrote. Nowhere did I say DL is ignorant. I don't see how we can even have a discussion if you ccose to misrepresent what I wrote.
 
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United787
Posts: 2867
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:33 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
AirAfreak wrote:

Though, Japan remains at #3 within the global economic scale, Seoul is higher yielding; commands higher average fares; profits from their multi-billion $$$ cosmetic industry; Tokyo is yesterday


And if Korea ever reunified under the South Korean government (not happening anytime soon), Korea would be in prime position to surpass Japan economically.

Plus, having a unified KE long haul operation at ICN is far superior to the split JL/NH Tokyo ops at HND/NRT


Not for generations (plural) after unification. North Korea will be a decades-long dumpster fire of education and infrastructure investment. The combined population is nowhere near Japan's, nor is labor productivity. It's far, far beyond the window of air carrier hub planning.


Agreed, look at the continued economic disparities between East & West Germany as an example. 30 years later and they are still very evident. The disparities between North & South Korea are far greater than Germany ever was. I would even venture to say that the disparities between the north and south in the United States has only started to equalize in the past 30-40 years.
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