FSDan
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:46 am

xxcr wrote:
DL is extremely weak in Asia compared to AA and UA.

How many cities does DL serve in asia compared to AA and UA??


It's pretty funny that you start with a definitive (and wrong) statement comparing DL to AA in Asia, and follow it by admitting you don't know how many destinations DL serves in Asia.

After cutting SIN and pulling out of NRT, DL will still serve 7 destinations in East Asia on their own metal from 7 different U.S. gateways. 18 daily departures from the mainland plus 3 from Hawai'i in peak summer, plus the forthcoming ICN-MNL. DL also serves TLV, and soon BOM, in Asia (from an 8th gateway).

AA serves 6 destinations on their own metal (and that's considering NRT and HND as two separate destinations) from 3 U.S. gateways. 11 daily departures in peak summer from LAX + DFW and 3 weekly from ORD. AA serves 0 destinations in the Middle East and South Asia.

At least you were correct about UA being bigger than both.
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lavalampluva
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:59 am

ytib wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
But isn't HND a slot controlled airport? So from where are the additional slots coming?


They were awarded 5 additional pairs in May 2019 from the DOT to go along with what they currently offer to HND.

https://www.transportation.gov/briefing ... eda-routes

Then the reason DL is abandoning NRT makes sense. Considering all the grief DL has given the DOT that’s very generous.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:03 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
UA flies to... NRT/HND, KIX, PEK, ICN, PVG, HKG, Various routes from Guam, and I believe has service to CTU?
UA even has fights to Xi’An and Hangzhou.



And SIN, and TPE. And yes, they still fly SFO-CTU (although no more XIY and HGH).

As for "weakest" - Before AA ended ORD-PEK/PVG and reduced frequency on ORD-NRT, they actually has more flights (in absolute number) to East Asia than DL. Nowaday AA is basically limited to DFW and LAX, though, compare to DL which fly to East Asia from SEA and DTW (The two largest gateways) along with ATL, PDX, and MSP (and HNL...but that's a different market).


Meant to say had flights to Xi’An and Hangzhou, finger slipped.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:13 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
Crazy to see the NRT hub go away. It's just kind of strange to me. NW didn't own the airport, but they had a really strong presence. My stepdad was a regular on JFK-NRT and connecting onward. It was kind of the last piece of NW that DL held on to until recent years.

I'm really shocked to see SIN and HKG gone from the route map though. It's pretty amazing to me that an airline with such a strong domestic network really can't make two of the biggest business destinations in Asia work. I get they love the JVs, but there is something to be said about flying on your own metal. I have friends and coworkers who are loyal DL flyers who barely touch DL planes when they go overseas. I guess that old line that Delta is afraid of big planes really has something to it...


This is where UA has really killed it on nonstop services. DL planes aren't particularly premium heavy, and United is. UA equips the B77W that flies to HKG from SFO (and EWR) with 60 J seats, and has the right plane, configuration, and hub location (SFO) to operate SIN profitably nonstop from the USA---the B789 on what was the longest B789 route at launch time (since passed by Qantas' PER-LHR). United used to go 1-stop to SIN, but now is nonstop (with the B789, a lot of 1-stop flights got canceled in favor of going nonstop), and that likely killed DL there. The only plane that DL has that could theoretically do SEA-SIN nonstop is 93t heavier than a B789 at MTOW.

And if UA wasn't enough---SQ also flies to SFO nonstop on a standard A359, but with way more J than DL has...and it also operates nonstop to LAX and EWR.
 
UA857
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:45 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
Crazy to see the NRT hub go away. It's just kind of strange to me. NW didn't own the airport, but they had a really strong presence. My stepdad was a regular on JFK-NRT and connecting onward. It was kind of the last piece of NW that DL held on to until recent years.

I'm really shocked to see SIN and HKG gone from the route map though. It's pretty amazing to me that an airline with such a strong domestic network really can't make two of the biggest business destinations in Asia work. I get they love the JVs, but there is something to be said about flying on your own metal. I have friends and coworkers who are loyal DL flyers who barely touch DL planes when they go overseas. I guess that old line that Delta is afraid of big planes really has something to it...


Delta could return to HKG with an uncovered destination like DTW or MSP.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:26 am

UA857 wrote:
Delta could return to HKG with an uncovered destination like DTW or MSP.

They've done HKG-DTW and dumped it.

aemoreira1981 wrote:
The only plane that DL has that could theoretically do SEA-SIN nonstop is 93t heavier than a B789 at MTOW.

In theory 275t A359 should be more than capable - SQ flies the 275t to SEA - it's another story about the # of pax and the yield that DL can get though.

Michael
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:28 am

UA857 wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
Crazy to see the NRT hub go away. It's just kind of strange to me. NW didn't own the airport, but they had a really strong presence. My stepdad was a regular on JFK-NRT and connecting onward. It was kind of the last piece of NW that DL held on to until recent years.

I'm really shocked to see SIN and HKG gone from the route map though. It's pretty amazing to me that an airline with such a strong domestic network really can't make two of the biggest business destinations in Asia work. I get they love the JVs, but there is something to be said about flying on your own metal. I have friends and coworkers who are loyal DL flyers who barely touch DL planes when they go overseas. I guess that old line that Delta is afraid of big planes really has something to it...


Delta could return to HKG with an uncovered destination like DTW or MSP.


They've tried that and failed. I think it's time for you to step back with your obsession about DL serving HKG anytime soon.

DL may return to HKG in the future, but don't expect it to be tomorrow as much as you want it to be - try a long term timeframe of 5 years or more.
 
Aceskywalker
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:43 am

MNL? Seems like this ICN-MNL route on DL metal is a waste.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:44 am

Ziyulu wrote:
NW had a hub at NRT up until the late 2000s. How sad.

A hub that was developed when the 400seat 742 was the longest ranged aircraft around...

...now you have 200seaters with 8000nm range and superior economics. As a result, the TPAC market moved past a coastal hub for anyone except the local carriers.

That's not "sad," that's just simple and inevitable market evolution.



Aceskywalker wrote:
MNL? Seems like this ICN-MNL route on DL metal is a waste.

You don't think that they could figure that out, before spending tons of money on equipment, crew, and market realignment?

Obviously, they see a financial+operational incentive to maintain a their own equipment/brand there.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:14 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
Crazy to see the NRT hub go away. It's just kind of strange to me. NW didn't own the airport, but they had a really strong presence. My stepdad was a regular on JFK-NRT and connecting onward. It was kind of the last piece of NW that DL held on to until recent years.

I'm really shocked to see SIN and HKG gone from the route map though. It's pretty amazing to me that an airline with such a strong domestic network really can't make two of the biggest business destinations in Asia work. I get they love the JVs, but there is something to be said about flying on your own metal. I have friends and coworkers who are loyal DL flyers who barely touch DL planes when they go overseas. I guess that old line that Delta is afraid of big planes really has something to it...


Check the seat count of the 359s and 339s that DL have been receiving and compare it to the seat count of UA 787-9s. It's not 1972 when you needed big to get TPAC range.
 
Atlwarrior
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:40 am

How is ATL to PVG flight doing? Also with new rounds of Tariff coming to China, Delta management may once again find itself doing the right thing and the right time by managing capacity to Asia rightly.
 
Aceskywalker
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:32 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
NW had a hub at NRT up until the late 2000s. How sad.

A hub that was developed when the 400seat 742 was the longest ranged aircraft around...

...now you have 200seaters with 8000nm range and superior economics. As a result, the TPAC market moved past a coastal hub for anyone except the local carriers.

That's not "sad," that's just simple and inevitable market evolution.



Aceskywalker wrote:
MNL? Seems like this ICN-MNL route on DL metal is a waste.

You don't think that they could figure that out, before spending tons of money on equipment, crew, and market realignment?

Obviously, they see a financial+operational incentive to maintain a their own equipment/brand there.


I assume so but Seoul - Manila is a route with lots of competition from LCCs, and more importantly DL will compete with it's partner KE. MNL - ICN may work but it's probably one of the first to go should DL ever opt to shrink it's Asia network even more.
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:59 am

Aceskywalker wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
NW had a hub at NRT up until the late 2000s. How sad.

A hub that was developed when the 400seat 742 was the longest ranged aircraft around...

...now you have 200seaters with 8000nm range and superior economics. As a result, the TPAC market moved past a coastal hub for anyone except the local carriers.

That's not "sad," that's just simple and inevitable market evolution.



Aceskywalker wrote:
MNL? Seems like this ICN-MNL route on DL metal is a waste.

You don't think that they could figure that out, before spending tons of money on equipment, crew, and market realignment?

Obviously, they see a financial+operational incentive to maintain a their own equipment/brand there.


I assume so but Seoul - Manila is a route with lots of competition from LCCs, and more importantly DL will compete with it's partner KE. MNL - ICN may work but it's probably one of the first to go should DL ever opt to shrink it's Asia network even more.


The speculation is that DL is launching ICN-MNL at least partly because KE can't get more slots to MNL (one of its more important markets, to the point that I've heard that they even wanted to bring in the A380 if only they could), and since DL already has slots there and is their partner, DL will serve the market instead of KE adding an additional frequency, which could end up being a win-win for both airlines. And while competition is large in the market, it has more potential to grow considering the huge tourist and business demand between the Philippines and South Korea, coupled with the fact that growth is being limited by the lack of capacity at NAIA.

As for the military or government contracts, I'm not sure if those are another factor as the military bases in the country were closed more than 20 years ago.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:08 pm

I think US carriers should have hubs everywhere around the world since international flights are profitable. Back then NW served a lot of Asian destinations as short haul from their NRT hub.
 
Aceskywalker
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:18 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
I think US carriers should have hubs everywhere around the world since international flights are profitable. Back then NW served a lot of Asian destinations as short haul from their NRT hub.


That era is long gone. Its more efficient to operate long haul from US destinations, not to mention the difficulty to get 5th freedom rights. Additionally, many international customers wouldn't opt for flying on the US3, as their hard and soft product is often inferior to that of US domestic airlines. I'd rather fly JAL from TYO-rest of Asia than AA operating out of TYO.
 
J343
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:39 pm

filipinoavgeek wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
A hub that was developed when the 400seat 742 was the longest ranged aircraft around...

...now you have 200seaters with 8000nm range and superior economics. As a result, the TPAC market moved past a coastal hub for anyone except the local carriers.

That's not "sad," that's just simple and inevitable market evolution.




You don't think that they could figure that out, before spending tons of money on equipment, crew, and market realignment?

Obviously, they see a financial+operational incentive to maintain a their own equipment/brand there.


I assume so but Seoul - Manila is a route with lots of competition from LCCs, and more importantly DL will compete with it's partner KE. MNL - ICN may work but it's probably one of the first to go should DL ever opt to shrink it's Asia network even more.


The speculation is that DL is launching ICN-MNL at least partly because KE can't get more slots to MNL (one of its more important markets, to the point that I've heard that they even wanted to bring in the A380 if only they could), and since DL already has slots there and is their partner, DL will serve the market instead of KE adding an additional frequency, which could end up being a win-win for both airlines. And while competition is large in the market, it has more potential to grow considering the huge tourist and business demand between the Philippines and South Korea, coupled with the fact that growth is being limited by the lack of capacity at NAIA.

As for the military or government contracts, I'm not sure if those are another factor as the military bases in the country were closed more than 20 years ago.


KE unable to get more slots at MNL? If EK and QR can get additional frequencies to MNL, why can't KE? I'm pretty sure KE served MNL before QR and EK did. If that's the case then perhaps they should send their B748i instead of the B773/B77W. Also, didn't CX get additional slots at MNL totalling 7x daily flights to HKG v.v. As far as I remember, I think SQ wants a 5th rotation and QR, EK and EY all wanted a 3rd daily rotation with QR and EK only granted 3x extra weekly. Correct me if I am wrong though.
 
HeeseokKoo
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:49 pm

J343 wrote:
KE unable to get more slots at MNL? .

Bilateral doesn’t allow additional seat capacity. Korea and Philippines agreed on a seat count which has been maxed out. Therefore KE cannot upgauge either.
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:56 pm

HeeseokKoo wrote:
J343 wrote:
KE unable to get more slots at MNL? .

Bilateral doesn’t allow additional seat capacity. Korea and Philippines agreed on a seat count which has been maxed out. Therefore KE cannot upgauge either.


Not exactly. ROK and PHL agreed to a "pocket open skies policy" wherein, for airports other than MNL, there are no capacity limits. And the main reason for the seat count is due to a lack of capacity at MNL and inability to expand; otherwise, the limit would have been raised or even eliminated by now.

J343 wrote:
KE unable to get more slots at MNL? If EK and QR can get additional frequencies to MNL, why can't KE? I'm pretty sure KE served MNL before QR and EK did. If that's the case then perhaps they should send their B748i instead of the B773/B77W. Also, didn't CX get additional slots at MNL totalling 7x daily flights to HKG v.v. As far as I remember, I think SQ wants a 5th rotation and QR, EK and EY all wanted a 3rd daily rotation with QR and EK only granted 3x extra weekly. Correct me if I am wrong though.


Due to limited slots at MNL, EK and QR were allowed a few more slots, but in exchange they had to launch services to outside MNL (CEB/CRK in the case of EK, and CRK and DVO in the case of QR). In fact, it could be argued that QR's DOH-CRK flight exists mainly because they can't expand at MNL further even if they wanted to, so they had to fly to the alternate airport instead.
 
ual763
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:00 pm

Ishrion wrote:
mattnrsa wrote:
How long will seven flights to HND last on DL? They said in the past that NRT yields were challenging with no alliance feed, so I’m not sure how HND would be different.

HND is the preferred airport but seven flights is a lot. Are there any other international non SkyTeam hub cities with that much DL presence?

It could be argued that the size of Tokyo merits additional flights, but with that reasoning the size of HKG and SIN should allow for at least one flight to those cities too.


LHR?


But LHR, even though it is not a Skyteam hub, they still use it like one quite frequently. You’ll find a lot of connections through LHR. Primarily because almost all airlines use it. Haha. United/Star Alliance does the same thing. At Haneda, there are a lot of Airlines, but ANA/JAL are dominant. The others don’t offer very many connecting opportunities like they do at LHR.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
tphuang
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:19 pm

FSDan wrote:
xxcr wrote:
DL is extremely weak in Asia compared to AA and UA.

How many cities does DL serve in asia compared to AA and UA??


It's pretty funny that you start with a definitive (and wrong) statement comparing DL to AA in Asia, and follow it by admitting you don't know how many destinations DL serves in Asia.

After cutting SIN and pulling out of NRT, DL will still serve 7 destinations in East Asia on their own metal from 7 different U.S. gateways. 18 daily departures from the mainland plus 3 from Hawai'i in peak summer, plus the forthcoming ICN-MNL. DL also serves TLV, and soon BOM, in Asia (from an 8th gateway).

AA serves 6 destinations on their own metal (and that's considering NRT and HND as two separate destinations) from 3 U.S. gateways. 11 daily departures in peak summer from LAX + DFW and 3 weekly from ORD. AA serves 0 destinations in the Middle East and South Asia.

At least you were correct about UA being bigger than both.

When people say Asia, they typically think of TPAC, which doesn't include India and definitely not TLV.

For any ff, it's not just about their own metal but also the alliance partners and JVs.

Also I don't count MNL since it has to go through ICN, which is equivalent to JV through NRT or HND.

Even though both airlines don't serve Singapore directly, AA service to SIN is a lot more convenient due to the great schedule to HKG from large US cities and CX's shuttle from HKG to SIN. Aside from direct flight to SIN, going through HKG always offers the best schedule.

It also matters that DL is far and away the weakest airline to Tokyo, which is far and away the most important market to Asia. Sure, if your destination is Shanghai or Seoul, it's a little better on DL/ST vs UA/*A and a lot better than on AA/OW. But to Tokyo, HK, Singapore, Beijing, Bangkok, KL, MNL or Taipei, there is pretty large gap.

A lot of this is just geography. CX just happens to be in OW and really well located for connections to ASEAN countries. YYZ/YVR just happens to have service to most of America and have great service to TPAC region. Seoul just happens to be a little further away from airports not in Japan and China, so the frequency of continuation flights to places like Taipei, KL, Bangkok, Jakarta, manila, singapore are just not good. You can look this up. If I'm going from NYC to BKK, I have 3 possible arrival time with KE and at least 8 with CX. And I have 4 possible departure times with CX out of JFK/EWR and only 2 with KE out of JFK. So you can see why schedule works so much better to Asia with OW even though AA doesn't fly to any of these places directly. You can put in NYC/LAX/SFO to any of these cities and you will see how many more options you get on CX vs KE.
 
jetlanta
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:10 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Clearly DL sees some merit in keeping their brand/metal in MNL.

While there are some merits to the a.net myths that SIN & HKG "mint money" and MNL is a "dumpster fire", people tend to broad-brush those comments and ignore the network and competitive factors that influence each of those markets. The transitive property doesn't always apply. SIN and HKG currently don't work for DL based on their hub markets and they aren't as mature in their coastal gateways where they face significant competition.

There may be some factors at play, that potentially ICN-MNL is a stop-gap until they feel they can fly something from the US mainland and they don't want to risk losing their employees and brand presence in the market.

I believe they do overnight maintenance in MNL and is there still an FA-base there too?


I always appreciate scrolling through a thread and running across your comments. Saves me the time and energy of posting myself. ;)
 
jetlanta
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:28 pm

We are still at the beginning phases of Delta's TPAC restructuring. United is the clear leader in TPAC and that isn't going to change anytime soon. But the KE and MU partnerships are going to be utilized like AF/KL. Lots of frequencies in hub-to-hub markets, further harmonization of product and services, and a focus on the corporate market. Its network will look different from United's, but can be still be successful. Delta customers now have the best accessibility they've ever had to Asia. When Daxing opens up, they will gain a third major connecting hub in North Asia. The new MU terminal at PVG will improve the pax experience greatly as well. The amount of passenger volume Delta will be able to accommodate over its partner hubs is massive. The loss of 200 or so online seats to SIN is pretty much irrelevant to the success of the carrier in the region. Airlines don't need to fly to every major city. None do. In fact, United and Delta have the world's most comprehensive global networks, whether you are looking at online or with partners. At the end of the day, losing SIN is not big deal compared to the benefits of the HND move and KE JV.
 
TW870
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:48 pm

jetlanta wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Clearly DL sees some merit in keeping their brand/metal in MNL.

While there are some merits to the a.net myths that SIN & HKG "mint money" and MNL is a "dumpster fire", people tend to broad-brush those comments and ignore the network and competitive factors that influence each of those markets. The transitive property doesn't always apply. SIN and HKG currently don't work for DL based on their hub markets and they aren't as mature in their coastal gateways where they face significant competition.

There may be some factors at play, that potentially ICN-MNL is a stop-gap until they feel they can fly something from the US mainland and they don't want to risk losing their employees and brand presence in the market.

I believe they do overnight maintenance in MNL and is there still an FA-base there too?


I always appreciate scrolling through a thread and running across your comments. Saves me the time and energy of posting myself. ;)


Agree with all of this. Plus, rebalancing the KE-DL JV for pilot block hours is front and center in the ALPA negotiations, and I think that impacts the ICN-MNL tag. Cutting the entire interport operation with nothing in return would antagonize the pilots and make it harder to get a deal done. Keeping any metal in Asia will help with the math on rebalancing. I am guessing we will also see more DL metal to ICN as a result of those talks, with LAX and JFK being the two mos obvious routes.
 
jayunited
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:19 pm

TW870 wrote:
Agree with all of this. Plus, rebalancing the KE-DL JV for pilot block hours is front and center in the ALPA negotiations, and I think that impacts the ICN-MNL tag. Cutting the entire interport operation with nothing in return would antagonize the pilots and make it harder to get a deal done. Keeping any metal in Asia will help with the math on rebalancing. I am guessing we will also see more DL metal to ICN as a result of those talks, with LAX and JFK being the two mos obvious routes.


You might be on to something here, your post reminds me of a town hall Kirby gave to UA employees at SFO earlier this year about our JV with LH/AC and with NH. Kirby was saying UA renegotiated with LH and AC which is one of the main reasons why UA has been able to expand and fly more TATL routes on our own metal to Europe instead of relying on LH and AC. He also stated UA was in the beginning stages of reopening negotiations with NH to rework the terms of our JV with them across the Pacific. Since UA is now a much stronger carrier than we've ever been we are better able to negotiate from a position of strength instead of weakness, I think the same applies to Delta.
In terms of the US3 there is no stronger airline than Delta Airlines. If DL is able to renegotiate with KE the end result could be more Pacific flying on DL metal and I'm sure DL pilots would love to see a more balance JV.
 
x1234
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:05 pm

DL is weird in that there's a internal announcement but NO press release. I'd thought this would be confirmed with a press release by now.
 
ITSTours
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:12 pm

jayunited wrote:
TW870 wrote:
Agree with all of this. Plus, rebalancing the KE-DL JV for pilot block hours is front and center in the ALPA negotiations, and I think that impacts the ICN-MNL tag. Cutting the entire interport operation with nothing in return would antagonize the pilots and make it harder to get a deal done. Keeping any metal in Asia will help with the math on rebalancing. I am guessing we will also see more DL metal to ICN as a result of those talks, with LAX and JFK being the two mos obvious routes.


You might be on to something here, your post reminds me of a town hall Kirby gave to UA employees at SFO earlier this year about our JV with LH/AC and with NH. Kirby was saying UA renegotiated with LH and AC which is one of the main reasons why UA has been able to expand and fly more TATL routes on our own metal to Europe instead of relying on LH and AC. He also stated UA was in the beginning stages of reopening negotiations with NH to rework the terms of our JV with them across the Pacific. Since UA is now a much stronger carrier than we've ever been we are better able to negotiate from a position of strength instead of weakness, I think the same applies to Delta.
In terms of the US3 there is no stronger airline than Delta Airlines. If DL is able to renegotiate with KE the end result could be more Pacific flying on DL metal and I'm sure DL pilots would love to see a more balance JV.


UA-AC-LH TATL JV has been there for a while, while DL-KE JV is pretty new. I think DL does not need to renegotiate anything--it should have been addressed already in the due process. DL leaving NRT was already in progress even before the KE JV.
 
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:33 pm

x1234 wrote:
DL is weird in that there's a internal announcement but NO press release. I'd thought this would be confirmed with a press release by now.

I doubt if they will do a public press release on all of this, until the DOT gives final approval of the Haneda slots. That must be coming anytime, or they would not have not done the internal press release.
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speedbird52
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:52 pm

Sad end of an era. I have to ask: Can NRT be considered a failure as an airport? Left an right carriers are moving their flights back to HND
 
ITSTours
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:02 pm

I see the last scheduled DL flight for the MNL-NRT route is on March 31, 2020. (Has it been mentioned above?)
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:38 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
Sad end of an era. I have to ask: Can NRT be considered a failure as an airport? Left an right carriers are moving their flights back to HND


It's not exactly a faillure. The current situation is similar to the end of Bermuda II for UK, i.e. carriers simply flock to LHR instead of flying to LGW, but LGW is as busy as ever, albeit with a different role now.

Similarly, NRT remain busy (2nd busiest airport in Japan, and NRT is actually somewhat constraint, just not as bad as HND), and is needed as HND alone simply cannot handle all the traffic to/from Tokyo.

tphuang wrote:
A lot of this is just geography. CX just happens to be in OW and really well located for connections to ASEAN countries. YYZ/YVR just happens to have service to most of America and have great service to TPAC region. Seoul just happens to be a little further away from airports not in Japan and China, so the frequency of continuation flights to places like Taipei, KL, Bangkok, Jakarta, manila, singapore are just not good. You can look this up. If I'm going from NYC to BKK, I have 3 possible arrival time with KE and at least 8 with CX. And I have 4 possible departure times with CX out of JFK/EWR and only 2 with KE out of JFK. So you can see why schedule works so much better to Asia with OW even though AA doesn't fly to any of these places directly. You can put in NYC/LAX/SFO to any of these cities and you will see how many more options you get on CX vs KE.


I would argue that it's CX being somewhat underlooked as a US-ASEAN connector on a.net, rather than the like of KE being "weak". CX is even expanding their North American network (i.e. SEA/IAD/BOS), so one can't argue about how the like of KE/NH/JL "fly to way more cities in US" (i.e. ATL/IAH/SAN) either.

And yes, being located so far south has its advantage going to/from ASEAN - hard to find a carrier that has 3x daily to cities in N. America just to connect to high frequency to the like of BKK/SIN/MNL (and KUL/SGN to lesser extent), and possibility to connect to India also (at least from West Coast CONUS it's definitely a plausible option).
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TW870
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:46 pm

ITSTours wrote:
jayunited wrote:
TW870 wrote:
Agree with all of this. Plus, rebalancing the KE-DL JV for pilot block hours is front and center in the ALPA negotiations, and I think that impacts the ICN-MNL tag. Cutting the entire interport operation with nothing in return would antagonize the pilots and make it harder to get a deal done. Keeping any metal in Asia will help with the math on rebalancing. I am guessing we will also see more DL metal to ICN as a result of those talks, with LAX and JFK being the two mos obvious routes.


You might be on to something here, your post reminds me of a town hall Kirby gave to UA employees at SFO earlier this year about our JV with LH/AC and with NH. Kirby was saying UA renegotiated with LH and AC which is one of the main reasons why UA has been able to expand and fly more TATL routes on our own metal to Europe instead of relying on LH and AC. He also stated UA was in the beginning stages of reopening negotiations with NH to rework the terms of our JV with them across the Pacific. Since UA is now a much stronger carrier than we've ever been we are better able to negotiate from a position of strength instead of weakness, I think the same applies to Delta.
In terms of the US3 there is no stronger airline than Delta Airlines. If DL is able to renegotiate with KE the end result could be more Pacific flying on DL metal and I'm sure DL pilots would love to see a more balance JV.


UA-AC-LH TATL JV has been there for a while, while DL-KE JV is pretty new. I think DL does not need to renegotiate anything--it should have been addressed already in the due process. DL leaving NRT was already in progress even before the KE JV.


That is correct, but the pilots don't like what Delta got in the due process, and are using regular Railway Labor Act Section 6 negotiations to push the company to add block hours somewhere - whether that be in the KE, AF, KL JVs, or just regular long haul block hours. The current displeasure is a result of the JV-centered strategy. One way to fix the disagreement is for the company to add trips such as ICN-MNL on DL metal, as well as trips such as JFK-BOM.
 
Osubuckeyes
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:55 pm

jetlanta wrote:
We are still at the beginning phases of Delta's TPAC restructuring. United is the clear leader in TPAC and that isn't going to change anytime soon. But the KE and MU partnerships are going to be utilized like AF/KL. Lots of frequencies in hub-to-hub markets, further harmonization of product and services, and a focus on the corporate market. Its network will look different from United's, but can be still be successful. Delta customers now have the best accessibility they've ever had to Asia. When Daxing opens up, they will gain a third major connecting hub in North Asia. The new MU terminal at PVG will improve the pax experience greatly as well. The amount of passenger volume Delta will be able to accommodate over its partner hubs is massive. The loss of 200 or so online seats to SIN is pretty much irrelevant to the success of the carrier in the region. Airlines don't need to fly to every major city. None do. In fact, United and Delta have the world's most comprehensive global networks, whether you are looking at online or with partners. At the end of the day, losing SIN is not big deal compared to the benefits of the HND move and KE JV.


Does the opening of Daxing provide more 1st tier frequencies available to US carriers?

If not the move to Daxing, while positive, ends up being somewhat marginal for DL & and its passengers. Though as always the more options the better.

I think DL is on the precipice of bigger things in Asia. In the coming years LAX/SEA will have additional available capacity, and I think we will see some additions that people "can't believe Delta doesn't serve that" additions from both LAX/SEA and maybe DTW.
 
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:56 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Sad end of an era. I have to ask: Can NRT be considered a failure as an airport? Left an right carriers are moving their flights back to HND


It's not exactly a faillure. The current situation is similar to the end of Bermuda II for UK, i.e. carriers simply flock to LHR instead of flying to LGW, but LGW is as busy as ever, albeit with a different role now.

Similarly, NRT remain busy (2nd busiest airport in Japan, and NRT is actually somewhat constraint, just not as bad as HND), and is needed as HND alone simply cannot handle all the traffic to/from Tokyo.

tphuang wrote:
A lot of this is just geography. CX just happens to be in OW and really well located for connections to ASEAN countries. YYZ/YVR just happens to have service to most of America and have great service to TPAC region. Seoul just happens to be a little further away from airports not in Japan and China, so the frequency of continuation flights to places like Taipei, KL, Bangkok, Jakarta, manila, singapore are just not good. You can look this up. If I'm going from NYC to BKK, I have 3 possible arrival time with KE and at least 8 with CX. And I have 4 possible departure times with CX out of JFK/EWR and only 2 with KE out of JFK. So you can see why schedule works so much better to Asia with OW even though AA doesn't fly to any of these places directly. You can put in NYC/LAX/SFO to any of these cities and you will see how many more options you get on CX vs KE.


I would argue that it's CX being somewhat underlooked as a US-ASEAN connector on a.net, rather than the like of KE being "weak". CX is even expanding their North American network (i.e. SEA/IAD/BOS), so one can't argue about how the like of KE/NH/JL "fly to way more cities in US" (i.e. ATL/IAH/SAN) either.

And yes, being located so far south has its advantage going to/from ASEAN - hard to find a carrier that has 3x daily to cities in N. America just to connect to high frequency to the like of BKK/SIN/MNL (and KUL/SGN to lesser extent), and possibility to connect to India also (at least from West Coast CONUS it's definitely a plausible option).


Why can CX fly NYC-HKG 4x daily? Because CX is the only (functioning) carrier of Hong Kong, enjoying its monopoly on the longhaul market.
South Korea has two FSCs, KE and OZ, and they have to share the demand. Both OZ and KE flies (or will fly) NYC-ICN 2x daily.

So should we conclude that monopoly is a good thing? I don't think so...
 
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:49 pm

x1234 wrote:
DL is weird in that there's a internal announcement but NO press release. I'd thought this would be confirmed with a press release by now.

TPG has a post out citing the employee newsletter they viewed, getting closer... Sounds like some of they may be waiting for the DOT to remove the tentative from the route awards... https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-to- ... e=facebook
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:02 pm

Aceskywalker wrote:
MNL? Seems like this ICN-MNL route on DL metal is a waste.


I'm guessing the route planners and finance folks at DL have a good handle on that. Clearly if they thought the ROI would be better elsewhere, they'd move the plane. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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ITB
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:58 pm

jetlanta wrote:
At the end of the day, losing SIN is not big deal compared to the benefits of the HND move and KE JV.


No. I disagree. Dropping SIN off the route map is a very big deal. As I mentioned earlier, SIN is an Alpha+ world city ranked No. 5 on the Global Power City Index. It's one of the world's key business centers, just a step behind London, New York and Shanghai. Some might even say it's more important than Shanghai. This exit will be keenly noticed and will further weaken DL's standing in Asia as a major player. It was a significant when TPE and BKK were dropped, but HKG and SIN are on a whole different level.

Delta is now basically flying trunk routes from five U.S. gateways (ATL, DTW, MSP, SEA, and LAX) to four Asian markets (TYO, ICN, PVG, and PEK). There is, of course, still PDX-NRT and three HNL-Japan flights, and, yes, it still does NGO and KIX, although the latter is seasonable and one has to wonder how long that will last. Aside from MNL, DL is no longer in Southeast Asia, which is a now major hole in it's network. The only reason MNL continues to be flown on Delta metal is because of the DL/KE joint venture.

Let's look at what's happened to Delta's TPAC route network from another perspective—from the TATL world. Let's say Delta exited FCO, ZUR, DUB, MUC, and MAD, among others, and began to only fly to LHR, CDG, AMS, and FRA. What's up with you'd say? That's a huge pullback! And it would be. But that's what's going on in Asia with Delta. It's a major pullback, or, to put it more gently, a realignment.

Don't get me wrong. Delta's a great airline that's very well run, and business is business. Yet the shrinkage of the TPAC network has to be a concern. With every dropped Asian city, thousands of travelers, many of whom were undoubtedly loyal, longstanding DL customers, must seek out alternatives. They may be very hard to win back. Moreover, routes such as LAX-PVG may be experiencing some pain due to intense competition. There may be further realignment of the TPAC network still to come.
 
MesabaXJ
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:50 am

jumbojet wrote:
United787 wrote:
[
If the new routing or timing is unworkable, call them and demand a refund. I have done it before in those situations with UA and AA. If DL is half the amazing airline it's kool-aid boys say it is, DL will give you your money back. Then goto UA and book MSP-SFO-SIN.


UA maybe as a last resort.

Or MSP to ICN to SIN. Avoid SFO and United entirely. Get a better soft and hard product AND a better airport experience


My ultimate plan would put me into SIN, spend a night, then go to KUL the next day. My plans changed from the original booking so I had to do it this way. Delta originally booked me on JAL flying the NRT-SIN route that they cancelled. Today I called DL up today and they rebooked me from NRT-KUL on ANA. Saves me a day of flying and going through Customs/Immigration.

They could have easily said no so pretty impressed.
 
jplatts
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:38 am

There is an article titled "Delta Air Lines to slash flights at Tokyo Narita Airport, increase presence in Haneda" on the Atlanta Business Chronicle's website that said that DL is planning on scrapping its operations at NRT in order to stregthen its presence at HND, and that article can be found at https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2019/08/02/delta-air-lines-to-slash-flights-at-tokyo-narita.html.

DL is planning on serving HND nonstop from ATL, DTW, HNL, LAX, MSP, PDX, and SEA if DL gets the necessary approval from the US DOT.
 
ITB
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:01 am

jplatts wrote:
There is an article titled "Delta Air Lines to slash flights at Tokyo Narita Airport, increase presence in Haneda" on the Atlanta Business Chronicle's website that said that DL is planning on scrapping its operations at NRT in order to stregthen its presence at HND, and that article can be found at https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2019/08/02/delta-air-lines-to-slash-flights-at-tokyo-narita.html.

DL is planning on serving HND nonstop from ATL, DTW, HNL, LAX, MSP, PDX, and SEA if DL gets the necessary approval from the US DOT.


The Atlanta Business Chronicle article, linked above, confirms what has been rumored: NRT will no longer be a hub. It also noted the end of the NRT-SIN flight will be September 22, 2019.
 
UA857
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:38 pm

Why is PDX being shifted to HND and NOT ICN?
 
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:14 pm

UA857 wrote:
Why is PDX being shifted to HND and NOT ICN?


https://www.wweek.com/we-went-to-japan/
Next: AS PDX-OGG-PDX
DL PDX-LHR-PDX
 
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:38 am

ITB wrote:
jetlanta wrote:
At the end of the day, losing SIN is not big deal compared to the benefits of the HND move and KE JV.


No. I disagree. Dropping SIN off the route map is a very big deal. As I mentioned earlier, SIN is an Alpha+ world city ranked No. 5 on the Global Power City Index. It's one of the world's key business centers, just a step behind London, New York and Shanghai. Some might even say it's more important than Shanghai. This exit will be keenly noticed and will further weaken DL's standing in Asia as a major player. It was a significant when TPE and BKK were dropped, but HKG and SIN are on a whole different level.


Sure, SIN is a globally significant city but it’s not especially connected to the US economically and is a long way away. Why does DL need to be there? A _____ measuring contest? The answer certainly isn’t network connectivity. Dropping NRT-SIN has zero effect on virtually any DL passenger who wants to go to Singapore.
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OptimusPrime315
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:14 am

I don’t know why so many a.net contributors talk to poorly about MNL. I fly that route on almost a monthly basis and there has not been a day where the flight isn’t less that 90% full. This includes less demand days as I have been on the flights on all days of the week. I know some of those tickets were Japanese, but I believe most are US tickets. J class is always full. ICN-MNL makes total sense. I suspected this move with rumors that NRT would be dropped. If not ICN, then I thought maybe KIX with the flights from SEA and HNL. I will add that I don’t mind the ICN move as much with the A339, A359, 777 planes. After flying the new Delta One Suites on the A359 the past few months into NRT, its been quite the downgrade to the old product in the 763 from NRT-MNL.

Looking back, DL has been surveying travel purposes all flyers going to SIN / MNL after security in NRT for about 2 years now. There had to been quite the business traveler demand that weighed in on DL’s decision to keep their own metal flying there.
 
Gimpo
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:59 pm

UA857 wrote:
Why is PDX being shifted to HND and NOT ICN?


Would like to see DL operate ICN-PDX and ICN-SIN.
 
FSDan
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:15 pm

tphuang wrote:
FSDan wrote:
xxcr wrote:
DL is extremely weak in Asia compared to AA and UA.

How many cities does DL serve in asia compared to AA and UA??


It's pretty funny that you start with a definitive (and wrong) statement comparing DL to AA in Asia, and follow it by admitting you don't know how many destinations DL serves in Asia.

After cutting SIN and pulling out of NRT, DL will still serve 7 destinations in East Asia on their own metal from 7 different U.S. gateways. 18 daily departures from the mainland plus 3 from Hawai'i in peak summer, plus the forthcoming ICN-MNL. DL also serves TLV, and soon BOM, in Asia (from an 8th gateway).

AA serves 6 destinations on their own metal (and that's considering NRT and HND as two separate destinations) from 3 U.S. gateways. 11 daily departures in peak summer from LAX + DFW and 3 weekly from ORD. AA serves 0 destinations in the Middle East and South Asia.

At least you were correct about UA being bigger than both.

When people say Asia, they typically think of TPAC, which doesn't include India and definitely not TLV.


Yep. You'll notice I included those destinations as more of an addendum or an aside to the primary discussion, because they are, in fact, still part of Asia. In answering the posed question "how many cities does DL serve in Asia?", I was not wrong to include them.

tphuang wrote:
For any ff, it's not just about their own metal but also the alliance partners and JVs.


Hold on; when did the question become about FFs, or about alliance partners? The poster I was responding to clearly asked how many destinations each airline serves on their own metal, which is what my entire post was responding to.

tphuang wrote:
Also I don't count MNL since it has to go through ICN, which is equivalent to JV through NRT or HND.


Now we're getting into arbitrary exclusions to better prove a point you wanted to make, which is separate from the question I was responding to.

tphuang wrote:
Even though both airlines don't serve Singapore directly, AA service to SIN is a lot more convenient due to the great schedule to HKG from large US cities and CX's shuttle from HKG to SIN. Aside from direct flight to SIN, going through HKG always offers the best schedule.

It also matters that DL is far and away the weakest airline to Tokyo, which is far and away the most important market to Asia. Sure, if your destination is Shanghai or Seoul, it's a little better on DL/ST vs UA/*A and a lot better than on AA/OW. But to Tokyo, HK, Singapore, Beijing, Bangkok, KL, MNL or Taipei, there is pretty large gap.

A lot of this is just geography. CX just happens to be in OW and really well located for connections to ASEAN countries. YYZ/YVR just happens to have service to most of America and have great service to TPAC region. Seoul just happens to be a little further away from airports not in Japan and China, so the frequency of continuation flights to places like Taipei, KL, Bangkok, Jakarta, manila, singapore are just not good. You can look this up. If I'm going from NYC to BKK, I have 3 possible arrival time with KE and at least 8 with CX. And I have 4 possible departure times with CX out of JFK/EWR and only 2 with KE out of JFK. So you can see why schedule works so much better to Asia with OW even though AA doesn't fly to any of these places directly. You can put in NYC/LAX/SFO to any of these cities and you will see how many more options you get on CX vs KE.


As noted above, you're arguing a completely different point than I was... I was responding to a poster who didn't seem to realize that DL actually is still a lot bigger in Asia than AA is on their own merit. If you want to post some numbers that show AA has more ASMs, passengers, revenue, etc. between the U.S. and East Asia than DL does, be my guest. That, to me, would be an indicator that DL is relatively weaker in Asia than AA. Not how many connection options you have between NYC and BKK or SIN on OneWorld vs SkyTeam.

If we want to jump into the alliance discussion, I'd say that if the cities you define as the most important really make AA stronger in Asia than DL, I'd expect to see AA beating DL in passengers carried, revenue, or some related statistic. I'm not sure if there's any public data on this, but if DL+KE carry as many passengers and/or make as much revenue flying people to/through TYO, ICN, PVG, etc. as AA+JL make flying people to/through TYO, HKG, SIN, etc., then it seems unfair to say that DL is the weaker player. Just my two cents. If DL's weaker than AA in Asia, I'd expect the statistics to bear that out.

Also, note that Star Alliance is not part of the discussion I was having - they are clearly the leader in the U.S.-Asia market.
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MIflyer12
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:44 pm

Pacific revenue is more than Asia but one can take ten seconds and look at Pacific passenger revenues for 1H19 for both AA and DL in the quarterly filings. DL leads handily.
 
tphuang
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:11 pm

FSDan wrote:
As noted above, you're arguing a completely different point than I was... I was responding to a poster who didn't seem to realize that DL actually is still a lot bigger in Asia than AA is on their own merit. If you want to post some numbers that show AA has more ASMs, passengers, revenue, etc. between the U.S. and East Asia than DL does, be my guest. That, to me, would be an indicator that DL is relatively weaker in Asia than AA. Not how many connection options you have between NYC and BKK or SIN on OneWorld vs SkyTeam.

If we want to jump into the alliance discussion, I'd say that if the cities you define as the most important really make AA stronger in Asia than DL, I'd expect to see AA beating DL in passengers carried, revenue, or some related statistic. I'm not sure if there's any public data on this, but if DL+KE carry as many passengers and/or make as much revenue flying people to/through TYO, ICN, PVG, etc. as AA+JL make flying people to/through TYO, HKG, SIN, etc., then it seems unfair to say that DL is the weaker player. Just my two cents. If DL's weaker than AA in Asia, I'd expect the statistics to bear that out.

Also, note that Star Alliance is not part of the discussion I was having - they are clearly the leader in the U.S.-Asia market.


I see, that's fair. I misunderstood being bigger as being more workable from a whole alliance point of view. Given where AA's TPAC hubs are and complete lack of TPAC flying from east coast, I would imagine that on it's own metals, it's the smallest one.
 
UA857
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Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:03 am

eamondzhang wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Delta could return to HKG with an uncovered destination like DTW or MSP.

They've done HKG-DTW and dumped it.

DTW-HKG be relaunched with A350s
 
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b777900
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Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:16 pm

grbauc wrote:
Well many have been saying and predicting it... Sad end to a part of history gone..

IT is very sad end of a era NW was there a long time.. I hope all the ticket agents and Gate agents can go to HND As well...
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Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos