• 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
 
ITSTours
Posts: 409
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:47 pm

KE ICN-MNL on April had a 91.8% load factor.
This suggests that DL has to send their own metal with NRT cancellation as there will be an undersupply.

And this also suggests a possibility for ICN-SIN (92.2% load factor).
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2815
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:18 pm

I strongly believe that what DL needs is to fly JFK-ICN on their own metal. Whether that means a 3rd daily JFK-ICN flight or taking over one of the Korean flights, I think that is essential to have.
 
FSDan
Posts: 2559
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:32 pm

jumbojet wrote:
I strongly believe that what DL needs is to fly JFK-ICN on their own metal. Whether that means a 3rd daily JFK-ICN flight or taking over one of the Korean flights, I think that is essential to have.


Why do you feel JFK-ICN on Delta metal is essential? If DL is going to tie up an aircraft on such a long flight from JFK, I'd say they should at least broaden their network and fly to some other important East Asian market like HND or HKG.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
J343
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:40 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:59 pm

jumbojet wrote:
I strongly believe that what DL needs is to fly JFK-ICN on their own metal. Whether that means a 3rd daily JFK-ICN flight or taking over one of the Korean flights, I think that is essential to have.


I agree with FSDan that DL doesn't necessarily need to serve JFK-ICN and v.v but rather increase their presence or expand operations in HND and HKG. JFK-ICN is already well served with KE (2xA380) and OZ (1xA380). I believe that 3x daily A380s for JFK-ICN offers decent capacity. I am not sure about DL serving JFK-HKG though considering CX has 3x direct and 1x via YVR and 1x EWR with UA's EWR service. If they will, then maybe it will increase competition and lower air fares.

I'm not expert in aviation analysis but please, correct me if I am wrong.
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 566
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:20 pm

J343 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
I strongly believe that what DL needs is to fly JFK-ICN on their own metal. Whether that means a 3rd daily JFK-ICN flight or taking over one of the Korean flights, I think that is essential to have.


I agree with FSDan that DL doesn't necessarily need to serve JFK-ICN and v.v but rather increase their presence or expand operations in HND and HKG. JFK-ICN is already well served with KE (2xA380) and OZ (1xA380). I believe that 3x daily A380s for JFK-ICN offers decent capacity. I am not sure about DL serving JFK-HKG though considering CX has 3x direct and 1x via YVR and 1x EWR with UA's EWR service. If they will, then maybe it will increase competition and lower air fares.

I'm not expert in aviation analysis but please, correct me if I am wrong.


J343, it is all conjecture at this point. Delta is performing a remarable feat of transmutation in the Pacific. The NW network does not work any more, and who knows for what reason DL did not cozy up to KE until recently. If I had been CEO of DL, it would have started before the merger. Can we imagine a dislike, a profit disagreement, what? In any case, just like Europe they can do some profitable non-hub routes in Asia, but the majority of the traffic will be to HND (like LHR for DL in Europe), ICN (the Asian AMS), and PVG (CDG). PDX-ICN, LAX-ICN, JFK-ICN. And a few more PVG's - MSP, SLC, etc. Then the network is good.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5620
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:40 pm

jumbojet wrote:
I strongly believe that what DL needs is to fly JFK-ICN on their own metal. Whether that means a 3rd daily JFK-ICN flight or taking over one of the Korean flights, I think that is essential to have.


Why is it essential for Delta or prospective passengers in the presence of the JV? Delta Diamond FFers can even use Global Upgrade Certificates on certain DL-marketed/KE-operated fares.
 
FSDan
Posts: 2559
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:31 pm

spinotter wrote:
who knows for what reason DL did not cozy up to KE until recently. If I had been CEO of DL, it would have started before the merger. Can we imagine a dislike, a profit disagreement, what?


I think it might have had something to do with when DL was chasing after JL for a while.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
ITSTours
Posts: 409
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:39 pm

J343 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
I strongly believe that what DL needs is to fly JFK-ICN on their own metal. Whether that means a 3rd daily JFK-ICN flight or taking over one of the Korean flights, I think that is essential to have.


I agree with FSDan that DL doesn't necessarily need to serve JFK-ICN and v.v but rather increase their presence or expand operations in HND and HKG. JFK-ICN is already well served with KE (2xA380) and OZ (1xA380). I believe that 3x daily A380s for JFK-ICN offers decent capacity. I am not sure about DL serving JFK-HKG though considering CX has 3x direct and 1x via YVR and 1x EWR with UA's EWR service. If they will, then maybe it will increase competition and lower air fares.

I'm not expert in aviation analysis but please, correct me if I am wrong.


Asiana will fly to JFK 2x daily from this November. So 4x daily total.
 
User avatar
DL757NYC
Posts: 288
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:07 am

Re: Rumor: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:10 am

winginit wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
ITB wrote:
Have to admit DL no longer serving Singapore, an Alpha+ world city ranked No. 5 in the Global Power Index, is concerning. That BKK was dropped a few years back, and SGN is not even on the radar, is unsettling. What's next? MNL? Let's hope ICN-MNL is successful.



Delta Trashed their Asian network. The 25 times Inflew to Asia the 747’s were packed. If they had the 787 maybe they would make more money


As I hope you know, load factor (ie 'the 747s were packed') has no bearing whatsoever on profitability. A jam-packed 747 running an annualized load factor in the 90s can, and often does for many carriers, bleed millions every year.



Hence my statement if they had the 787 they would have made money. They inherited a decent network from Northwest. Perfect no however Delta had almost no presence in Asia before the NW merger. Over the last 4 years they have cut routes. BKK was one that made me shake my head. Now I don’t fly Delta at all when I go there. Air China has been my choice.
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 566
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: Rumor: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:12 pm

DL757NYC wrote:
winginit wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:


Delta Trashed their Asian network. The 25 times Inflew to Asia the 747’s were packed. If they had the 787 maybe they would make more money


As I hope you know, load factor (ie 'the 747s were packed') has no bearing whatsoever on profitability. A jam-packed 747 running an annualized load factor in the 90s can, and often does for many carriers, bleed millions every year.



Hence my statement if they had the 787 they would have made money. They inherited a decent network from Northwest. Perfect no however Delta had almost no presence in Asia before the NW merger. Over the last 4 years they have cut routes. BKK was one that made me shake my head. Now I don’t fly Delta at all when I go there. Air China has been my choice.


Why don't you fly DL any more? Because they flubbed up their Asian network by not buying 787's?
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5824
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:34 pm

jumbojet wrote:
I strongly believe that what DL needs is to fly JFK-ICN on their own metal. Whether that means a 3rd daily JFK-ICN flight or taking over one of the Korean flights, I think that is essential to have.


Why? The whole point of a JV is so DL doesn’t have to do things like that.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
codc10
Posts: 2529
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: Rumor: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:25 pm

DL757NYC wrote:
winginit wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:


Delta Trashed their Asian network. The 25 times Inflew to Asia the 747’s were packed. If they had the 787 maybe they would make more money


As I hope you know, load factor (ie 'the 747s were packed') has no bearing whatsoever on profitability. A jam-packed 747 running an annualized load factor in the 90s can, and often does for many carriers, bleed millions every year.



Hence my statement if they had the 787 they would have made money. They inherited a decent network from Northwest. Perfect no however Delta had almost no presence in Asia before the NW merger. Over the last 4 years they have cut routes. BKK was one that made me shake my head. Now I don’t fly Delta at all when I go there. Air China has been my choice.


United and Delta left BKK, and United has 787s, plus a better TPAC hub in SFO... one wouldn’t be stretching too far to conclude the economics of BKK might be less than favorable.
 
panamair
Posts: 4092
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Re: Rumor: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:28 pm

DL757NYC wrote:
Over the last 4 years they have cut routes. BKK was one that made me shake my head. Now I don’t fly Delta at all when I go there. Air China has been my choice.


As has been repeated in multiple threads, that TPAC network needed restructuring and we’re in the middle of it now. And BKK? UA, the top dog in the Pacific doesn’t even fly there on its own metal..that should tell you something!
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5824
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Rumor: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:54 pm

panamair wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
Over the last 4 years they have cut routes. BKK was one that made me shake my head. Now I don’t fly Delta at all when I go there. Air China has been my choice.


As has been repeated in multiple threads, that TPAC network needed restructuring and we’re in the middle of it now. And BKK? UA, the top dog in the Pacific doesn’t even fly there on its own metal..that should tell you something!


US-Thailand is a money pit of a market. Even TG couldn’t make LAX work.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
bfitzflyer
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:02 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:56 pm

Kind of curious to see how ICN - MNL does and if it does well, could we see DL metal on other Asian routes out of ICN.
 
winginit
Posts: 2549
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:25 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
I strongly believe that what DL needs is to fly JFK-ICN on their own metal. Whether that means a 3rd daily JFK-ICN flight or taking over one of the Korean flights, I think that is essential to have.


Why? The whole point of a JV is so DL doesn’t have to do things like that.


Ding ding ding! Spot on.

LAXdude1023 wrote:
US-Thailand is a money pit of a market. Even TG couldn’t make LAX work.


Also spot on.

bfitzflyer wrote:
Kind of curious to see how ICN - MNL does and if it does well, could we see DL metal on other Asian routes out of ICN.


Surely not, and even if there was the resemblance of a business case, I'm not sure that would be permitted by the regulatory authorities. My guess is that DL is already pushing it by moving NRT-MNL to ICN-MNL as that's a bit of a regulatory gray area.
 
User avatar
SCFlyer
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:14 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:09 am

bfitzflyer wrote:
Kind of curious to see how ICN - MNL does and if it does well, could we see DL metal on other Asian routes out of ICN.


Not very likely. KE would take care of the vast majority of routes beyond ICN on the JV.
As stated by others earlier, MNL was an exception for a number of reasons (allegedly bilaterals were also are maxed on the Korean end, thus DL on the route for extra capacity as part of the JV).
 
panamair
Posts: 4092
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:49 pm

Looks like the new ICN-MNL schedule has been loaded and will be served by the A339 (not much of a surprise).

DL197 ICN 1940 MNL 2250
DL196 MNL 1030 ICN 1525

KE’s schedules currently on ICN-MNL-ICN are:
ICN 0800 MNL 1055
ICN 1845 MNL 2155

MNL 1220 ICN 1720
MNL 2310 ICN 0415+

And the new HND flights have been loaded as well (except for HNL so far). Only surprise seems to be that SEA will be an A359 instead of the A339.

ATL: 77L
MSP: A359
DTW: A359
SEA: A359
LAX: 77L
PDX: A332
 
User avatar
UPlog
Posts: 386
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:31 pm

Still curious what actual slots times the U.S carriers will get at HND. Now DL join UA in selling seats. Lets see if schedules stick or not. I believe the IATA slot conference is in November.
 
flyingdoc787
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:26 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:47 pm

Which flights will DL’s MNL service connect to/from at ICN? Can anyone give details such as flight number and destination/origin?

I’m guessing DTW, MSP... LAX? ATL?
 
SUNCTRY738
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 3:39 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:33 pm

panamair wrote:
Looks like the new ICN-MNL schedule has been loaded and will be served by the A339 (not much of a surprise).

DL197 ICN 1940 MNL 2250
DL196 MNL 1030 ICN 1525

KE’s schedules currently on ICN-MNL-ICN are:
ICN 0800 MNL 1055
ICN 1845 MNL 2155

MNL 1220 ICN 1720
MNL 2310 ICN 0415+

And the new HND flights have been loaded as well (except for HNL so far). Only surprise seems to be that SEA will be an A359 instead of the A339.

ATL: 77L
MSP: A359
DTW: A359
SEA: A359
LAX: 77L
PDX: A332


I am surprised at the MSP-HND flight being on a A359. Many on here had claimed that flight was a failure and was going away.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5620
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:38 pm

flyingdoc787 wrote:
Which flights will DL’s MNL service connect to/from at ICN? Can anyone give details such as flight number and destination/origin?

I’m guessing DTW, MSP... LAX? ATL?


DL #197 ICN-MNL is in the schedule: dep ICN 1940 arr MNL 2250

DL #196 dep MNL 1050 arr ICN 1525
 
panamair
Posts: 4092
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:12 am

flyingdoc787 wrote:
Which flights will DL’s MNL service connect to/from at ICN? Can anyone give details such as flight number and destination/origin?

I’m guessing DTW, MSP... LAX? ATL?


DL196 MNL-ICN looks like it will connect with SEA (same flight number), MSP and ATL (of the DL-operated flights). Won’t connect with DTW as it leaves ICN in the morning.

DL197 ICN-MNL will be able to take pax from SEA (again same flight number), DTW and MSP but not ATL as that arrives ICN at the crack of dawn.

Again, these are only for the DL-operated TPAC flights to/from ICN; of course they will also connect with the KE-operated flights to LAX, SFO, JFK, etc
 
alfa164
Posts: 2966
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:59 am

winginit wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
Kind of curious to see how ICN - MNL does and if it does well, could we see DL metal on other Asian routes out of ICN.

Surely not, and even if there was the resemblance of a business case, I'm not sure that would be permitted by the regulatory authorities. My guess is that DL is already pushing it by moving NRT-MNL to ICN-MNL as that's a bit of a regulatory gray area.


ICN-MNL had limited slots for both Korean and Philippine carriers; thus by flying Delta metal, DL and KE were able to add another flight that would otherwise not be allowed.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
SUNCTRY738
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 3:39 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:44 am

Panamair, can you offer any insights into what looks like an imbalance of US-ICN flights in the JV? Is it due to it being such a new JV? Or does DL have no intention of taking over some of the flights operated right now by KE like out of LAX and JFK? I don't see many more opportunities for DL to add additional flights so it would seem like DL would need to take over some of the existing flights US-ICN to bring this JV some appearance of balance to appease the pilots.
 
klm617
Posts: 4379
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:53 am

panamair wrote:
flyingdoc787 wrote:
Which flights will DL’s MNL service connect to/from at ICN? Can anyone give details such as flight number and destination/origin?

I’m guessing DTW, MSP... LAX? ATL?


DL196 MNL-ICN looks like it will connect with SEA (same flight number), MSP and ATL (of the DL-operated flights). Won’t connect with DTW as it leaves ICN in the morning.

DL197 ICN-MNL will be able to take pax from SEA (again same flight number), DTW and MSP but not ATL as that arrives ICN at the crack of dawn.

Again, these are only for the DL-operated TPAC flights to/from ICN; of course they will also connect with the KE-operated flights to LAX, SFO, JFK, etc



This again is another miscue by Delta as there are many travers from Detroit to the Philippines that will not be able to use Delta unless they chose some sort of convoluted connection on Delta. They are trying to manipulate traffic patterns to suit their needs rather than the customer needs and that's why their Asian network keeps shrinking because they are better options out there for travelers.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5620
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:28 pm

klm617 wrote:
panamair wrote:
flyingdoc787 wrote:
Which flights will DL’s MNL service connect to/from at ICN? Can anyone give details such as flight number and destination/origin?

I’m guessing DTW, MSP... LAX? ATL?


DL196 MNL-ICN looks like it will connect with SEA (same flight number), MSP and ATL (of the DL-operated flights). Won’t connect with DTW as it leaves ICN in the morning.

DL197 ICN-MNL will be able to take pax from SEA (again same flight number), DTW and MSP but not ATL as that arrives ICN at the crack of dawn.

Again, these are only for the DL-operated TPAC flights to/from ICN; of course they will also connect with the KE-operated flights to LAX, SFO, JFK, etc



This again is another miscue by Delta as there are many travers from Detroit to the Philippines that will not be able to use Delta unless they chose some sort of convoluted connection on Delta. They are trying to manipulate traffic patterns to suit their needs rather than the customer needs and that's why their Asian network keeps shrinking because they are better options out there for travelers.


What's the PDEW DTW-MNL? There's no GM/F/FCA auto assembly in the Philippines, and not much supply base to them, either (that I know of, and the Philippines doesn't make a list of 15 top countries of origin for U.S. auto parts imports). MNL isn't the kind of DTW destination like TYO, NGO or ICN.
 
User avatar
b777900
Posts: 363
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:27 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:55 pm

x1234 wrote:
The SIN end is not surprising with SQ starting SIN-SEA in a couple of months. I find DL saying MNL is higher yielding than we thought surprising. I guess they went with the cheapest operating cost option of running probably a 763ER ICN-MNL instead of launching which what would be revolutionary A339neo SEA-MNL.


CEB Has a brand new International Terminal What if DL flew HND -CEB instead I bet 2 flights a day would always be full.
[i[b]]Prepare for Gate arrival, Gate 32
 
flyingdoc787
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:26 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:58 pm

DTW itself may not have much traffic to/from MNL, but there’s a lot of connecting passengers from the Midwest who fill up those planes. Maybe they’ll be funneled through MSP or even SEA?
Or like what another poster said, passengers might be put on KE metal for the TPAC segment.
 
kavok
Posts: 572
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:07 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
panamair wrote:

DL196 MNL-ICN looks like it will connect with SEA (same flight number), MSP and ATL (of the DL-operated flights). Won’t connect with DTW as it leaves ICN in the morning.

DL197 ICN-MNL will be able to take pax from SEA (again same flight number), DTW and MSP but not ATL as that arrives ICN at the crack of dawn.

Again, these are only for the DL-operated TPAC flights to/from ICN; of course they will also connect with the KE-operated flights to LAX, SFO, JFK, etc



This again is another miscue by Delta as there are many travers from Detroit to the Philippines that will not be able to use Delta unless they chose some sort of convoluted connection on Delta. They are trying to manipulate traffic patterns to suit their needs rather than the customer needs and that's why their Asian network keeps shrinking because they are better options out there for travelers.


What's the PDEW DTW-MNL? There's no GM/F/FCA auto assembly in the Philippines, and not much supply base to them, either (that I know of, and the Philippines doesn't make a list of 15 top countries of origin for U.S. auto parts imports). MNL isn't the kind of DTW destination like TYO, NGO or ICN.


As other posters have suggested, the only reason DL is keeping MNL-ICN is because KE can’t fly the additional frequency. If KE ever gets the ability to fly to MNL as much as they actually wanted, DLs flight would go the way of NRT-SIN.

It has nothing to do with connecting MNL pax to DTW, ATL, or any other specific location in the USA.
 
bugsbegone
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:03 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:08 pm

kavok wrote:

As other posters have suggested, the only reason DL is keeping MNL-ICN is because KE can’t fly the additional frequency. If KE ever gets the ability to fly to MNL as much as they actually wanted, DLs flight would go the way of NRT-SIN.

It has nothing to do with connecting MNL pax to DTW, ATL, or any other specific location in the USA.


Sorry if this has been asked and answered already but will that DL operated ICN-MNL flight be able to take local passengers?
 
LAOCA
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:18 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:32 pm

mattnrsa wrote:
BenflysDTW wrote:
Tokyo is different, DL said earlier during the SEA-KIX announcement, that their goal was to have Japan strongly connected to the US as their ICN hub would make for a huge backtrack, where almost no one would do want to travel that way. I’m not sure that LHR is a SkyTeam hub, VS is not a part of SkyTeam. DL has about 11-12 flights a day there as you already know. Also remember that PDX, MSP, DTW, and ATL are monopoly markets into TOK as a nonstop option. UA only has IAH, DEN while AA only has DFW for monopoly TOK service which includes partners of course. TOK has a great mix of leisure, family, premium business travel. TOK is also the largest metro area I believe in population but as golden rule #2 for air service, population means nothing. GRU used to have 4 flights a day on DL, (DTW, ATL, JFK, MCO) so that’s one comparison.

Yes TYO is a huge market but Ed Bastian said NRT was a challenge without a partner airline or any meaningful feed. I wasn’t sure how HND would be different in terms of those challenges.


For O&D travel to Tokyo, HND makes for a much more profitable airport. When there's similar service to HND, NRT isn't as good a choice other than when connecting onward. This makes DL a much stronger carrier for TYO-US business travel.
 
Philippine747
Posts: 186
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:54 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:10 am

bugsbegone wrote:
kavok wrote:

As other posters have suggested, the only reason DL is keeping MNL-ICN is because KE can’t fly the additional frequency. If KE ever gets the ability to fly to MNL as much as they actually wanted, DLs flight would go the way of NRT-SIN.

It has nothing to do with connecting MNL pax to DTW, ATL, or any other specific location in the USA.


Sorry if this has been asked and answered already but will that DL operated ICN-MNL flight be able to take local passengers?


ICN-MNL v.v is available for booking on DL's website.

b777900 wrote:
CEB Has a brand new International Terminal What if DL flew HND -CEB instead I bet 2 flights a day would always be full.


KE already operates ICN-CEB daily with their own metal (A333), as well as Jin Air's. DL's pax can just transfer in ICN.
A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 AT75 AT76 B732 B733 B738 B744 B752(M) B763 B772 B77W DHC7 DH8C DH8D D328 MA60

2P 5J 6K CX DG EK GA KE MI PR VN OS QR A3 OK TG RA U4 JL GK UB K7 WE
 
LurveBus
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:21 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:49 am

kavok wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


This again is another miscue by Delta as there are many travers from Detroit to the Philippines that will not be able to use Delta unless they chose some sort of convoluted connection on Delta. They are trying to manipulate traffic patterns to suit their needs rather than the customer needs and that's why their Asian network keeps shrinking because they are better options out there for travelers.


What's the PDEW DTW-MNL? There's no GM/F/FCA auto assembly in the Philippines, and not much supply base to them, either (that I know of, and the Philippines doesn't make a list of 15 top countries of origin for U.S. auto parts imports). MNL isn't the kind of DTW destination like TYO, NGO or ICN.


As other posters have suggested, the only reason DL is keeping MNL-ICN is because KE can’t fly the additional frequency. If KE ever gets the ability to fly to MNL as much as they actually wanted, DLs flight would go the way of NRT-SIN.

It has nothing to do with connecting MNL pax to DTW, ATL, or any other specific location in the USA.


It’s a little bizarre, but insiders in the Philippines are saying that DL had to cannibalize KE’s entitlements on ICN-MNL in order for the flight to be approved. To be fair, they won’t be carrying a lot of 5th freedom traffic, so they won’t need that many seats, but it also means that KE will be forced to downgauge a widebody flight into a narrowbody one in the meantime.
 
Aceskywalker
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:55 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:00 pm

Interesting that LAX-HND is moving to a 77L. I was under the assumption that it would stay served by A359 or even swapped out for A339. Especially with the considerable seat increase on this route with adding a UA 78J and AA-JL joint venture going double daily 77W + 788
 
klm617
Posts: 4379
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:16 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
panamair wrote:

DL196 MNL-ICN looks like it will connect with SEA (same flight number), MSP and ATL (of the DL-operated flights). Won’t connect with DTW as it leaves ICN in the morning.

DL197 ICN-MNL will be able to take pax from SEA (again same flight number), DTW and MSP but not ATL as that arrives ICN at the crack of dawn.

Again, these are only for the DL-operated TPAC flights to/from ICN; of course they will also connect with the KE-operated flights to LAX, SFO, JFK, etc



This again is another miscue by Delta as there are many travers from Detroit to the Philippines that will not be able to use Delta unless they chose some sort of convoluted connection on Delta. They are trying to manipulate traffic patterns to suit their needs rather than the customer needs and that's why their Asian network keeps shrinking because they are better options out there for travelers.


What's the PDEW DTW-MNL? There's no GM/F/FCA auto assembly in the Philippines, and not much supply base to them, either (that I know of, and the Philippines doesn't make a list of 15 top countries of origin for U.S. auto parts imports). MNL isn't the kind of DTW destination like TYO, NGO or ICN.


There is a sizeable Philippine community in Southeast Michigan and Northwest always maintained one stop flights from Detroit.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
DL747400
Posts: 684
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:21 pm

klm617 wrote:
There is a sizeable Philippine community in Southeast Michigan and Northwest always maintained one stop flights from Detroit.


:roll: Because continuing to do things the way they've always been done historically is such a great idea. :roll: And because everything NW did was always profitable.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
Aceskywalker
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:55 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:52 pm

klm617 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


This again is another miscue by Delta as there are many travers from Detroit to the Philippines that will not be able to use Delta unless they chose some sort of convoluted connection on Delta. They are trying to manipulate traffic patterns to suit their needs rather than the customer needs and that's why their Asian network keeps shrinking because they are better options out there for travelers.


What's the PDEW DTW-MNL? There's no GM/F/FCA auto assembly in the Philippines, and not much supply base to them, either (that I know of, and the Philippines doesn't make a list of 15 top countries of origin for U.S. auto parts imports). MNL isn't the kind of DTW destination like TYO, NGO or ICN.


There is a sizeable Philippine community in Southeast Michigan and Northwest always maintained one stop flights from Detroit.


Virtually all of that traffic is price sensitive VFR passengers who will likely do a double connection in the West Coast and Mainland China/Taiwan/Hong Kong for cheaper fares.

Let's go back to Singapore, which is a higher yield market than Manila. Delta is closing up shop there and pushing their customers to KE. The consensus is that the only reason ICN-MNL will be on DL metal is to get around bilaterals that restrict ICN-MNL capacity on Korean metal. If and when restrictions are loosened up, I believe that DL will axe MNL for good.
 
User avatar
b777900
Posts: 363
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:27 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:43 pm

Philippine747 wrote:
bugsbegone wrote:
kavok wrote:

As other posters have suggested, the only reason DL is keeping MNL-ICN is because KE can’t fly the additional frequency. If KE ever gets the ability to fly to MNL as much as they actually wanted, DLs flight would go the way of NRT-SIN.

It has nothing to do with connecting MNL pax to DTW, ATL, or any other specific location in the USA.


Sorry if this has been asked and answered already but will that DL operated ICN-MNL flight be able to take local passengers?


ICN-MNL v.v is available for booking on DL's website.

b777900 wrote:
CEB Has a brand new International Terminal What if DL flew HND -CEB instead I bet 2 flights a day would always be full.


KE already operates ICN-CEB daily with their own metal (A333), as well as Jin Air's. DL's pax can just transfer in ICN.

We do not want to transfer We want DL METAL THE WHOLE WAY
[i[b]]Prepare for Gate arrival, Gate 32
 
Aceskywalker
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:55 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:58 pm

b777900 wrote:
Philippine747 wrote:
bugsbegone wrote:

Sorry if this has been asked and answered already but will that DL operated ICN-MNL flight be able to take local passengers?


ICN-MNL v.v is available for booking on DL's website.

b777900 wrote:
CEB Has a brand new International Terminal What if DL flew HND -CEB instead I bet 2 flights a day would always be full.


KE already operates ICN-CEB daily with their own metal (A333), as well as Jin Air's. DL's pax can just transfer in ICN.

We do not want to transfer We want DL METAL THE WHOLE WAY


Don't be so naive. Tying up planes in fifth freedom routes in Asia isn't what Delta wants, not when the aircraft could be better utilized. The only reason why they're flying this oddball route to Manila from Seoul is because legally their partner KE cannot expand capacity. When capacity increases say when Manila figures out the congestion issue, Delta will close the route.

The age of US carriers flying 5th freedom routes is over.

Maybe SIN will return as a A359 route from Seattle, assuming SQ doesn't beat them to the punch. But a primarily tourist and VFR destination like MNL, once that's gone its gone.
 
Sightseer
Posts: 931
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:04 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:09 pm

For those griping about how DL's ICN-MNL doesn't connect to DTW, remember there are two other daily ICN-MNL flights on KE.
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2854
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:12 pm

Of course, in a JV situation, it is metal neutral so it doesn't matter too much which partner flies the route. But, it seems like DL handing over routes to a partner is more of an AA move. I am surprised that DL would do this especially since in the recent past DL seemed to take on more of the Atlantic flying from AF/KL such as when they took over ORD-CDG. AA seemed to be shrinking down to just NRT and LHR and letting JL and BA take it from there. Fortunately AA has seemed to reverse course lately at least on the Atlantic side...
 
FSDan
Posts: 2559
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:36 pm

Aceskywalker wrote:
Maybe SIN will return as a A359 route from Seattle, assuming SQ doesn't beat them to the punch. But a primarily tourist and VFR destination like MNL, once that's gone its gone.


SQ already beat DL to the punch. SEA-SIN service started this month, I believe. SQ has a distinct advantage over DL in the market because they can offer connections beyond SIN to Southeast Asia and India. DL would have to rely on SEA-SIN O&D, and trying to steal connections from other U.S. cities that already have their own nonstop service to SIN (or at least other one stop options). The 359 would probably be too much lift in DL's configuration, as I'm guessing the O&D numbers on SEA-SIN aren't huge.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
panamair
Posts: 4092
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:44 pm

Sightseer wrote:
For those griping about how DL's ICN-MNL doesn't connect to DTW, remember there are two other daily ICN-MNL flights on KE.


Exactly..as I posted above, DTW-ICN actually does connect to the DL-operated ICN-MNL flight; it’s only on the return that the MNL-ICN flight does not connect to the ICN-DTW flight simply because of the oddball timing of the ICN-DTW flight relative to the other Delta-operated ICN-USA flights. It’s not like DL deliberately tried to exclude DTW. On the USA-ICN-MNL side, it’s actually the DL-operated ATL-ICN that does not connect to ICN-MNL but yet the poster didn’t make a big stink there! The stupidity of a.net sometimes....
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2774
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:14 pm

Aceskywalker wrote:
Let's go back to Singapore, which is a higher yield market than Manila. Delta is closing up shop there and pushing their customers to KE. The consensus is that the only reason ICN-MNL will be on DL metal is to get around bilaterals that restrict ICN-MNL capacity on Korean metal. If and when restrictions are loosened up, I believe that DL will axe MNL for good.


DL can't exactly fly ICN-SIN due to bilateral. AFAIK the frequency between Seoul and Singapore is already used up (I think it's 28 weekly flights for each side). PUS-SIN is not full yet (it's 14 weekly, 7 each side IIRC) but AFAIK no long-haul is allow at PUS right now due to both protectionism (of ICN) and runway restriction (Which would be solved once the new "diagonal" runway at PUS is complete).

In another word, if DL is going to go back to SIN after NRT-SIN end, it's most likely non-stop from CONUS. Otherwise, the only other likely fifth freedom would be xxx-KIX-SIN, which just doesn't fit in DL's strategy (nor TPE or HKG - the former already has fellow Skyteam member CI on that route (along with BR and Jetstar and Scoot and SQ), the latter would be a huge money loser as there's no way DL can compete with CX or SQ).
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
Aceskywalker
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:55 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:45 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:
Let's go back to Singapore, which is a higher yield market than Manila. Delta is closing up shop there and pushing their customers to KE. The consensus is that the only reason ICN-MNL will be on DL metal is to get around bilaterals that restrict ICN-MNL capacity on Korean metal. If and when restrictions are loosened up, I believe that DL will axe MNL for good.


DL can't exactly fly ICN-SIN due to bilateral. AFAIK the frequency between Seoul and Singapore is already used up (I think it's 28 weekly flights for each side). PUS-SIN is not full yet (it's 14 weekly, 7 each side IIRC) but AFAIK no long-haul is allow at PUS right now due to both protectionism (of ICN) and runway restriction (Which would be solved once the new "diagonal" runway at PUS is complete).

In another word, if DL is going to go back to SIN after NRT-SIN end, it's most likely non-stop from CONUS. Otherwise, the only other likely fifth freedom would be xxx-KIX-SIN, which just doesn't fit in DL's strategy (nor TPE or HKG - the former already has fellow Skyteam member CI on that route (along with BR and Jetstar and Scoot and SQ), the latter would be a huge money loser as there's no way DL can compete with CX or SQ).


In the current direction, there's little to no chance of DL returning to Singapore. All Delta hubs already have nonstop service to SIN or require bespoke aircraft to operate like the A359ULR.
 
kavok
Posts: 572
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:14 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:
Let's go back to Singapore, which is a higher yield market than Manila. Delta is closing up shop there and pushing their customers to KE. The consensus is that the only reason ICN-MNL will be on DL metal is to get around bilaterals that restrict ICN-MNL capacity on Korean metal. If and when restrictions are loosened up, I believe that DL will axe MNL for good.


DL can't exactly fly ICN-SIN due to bilateral. AFAIK the frequency between Seoul and Singapore is already used up (I think it's 28 weekly flights for each side). PUS-SIN is not full yet (it's 14 weekly, 7 each side IIRC) but AFAIK no long-haul is allow at PUS right now due to both protectionism (of ICN) and runway restriction (Which would be solved once the new "diagonal" runway at PUS is complete).

In another word, if DL is going to go back to SIN after NRT-SIN end, it's most likely non-stop from CONUS. Otherwise, the only other likely fifth freedom would be xxx-KIX-SIN, which just doesn't fit in DL's strategy (nor TPE or HKG - the former already has fellow Skyteam member CI on that route (along with BR and Jetstar and Scoot and SQ), the latter would be a huge money loser as there's no way DL can compete with CX or SQ).


Also, if DL was making any money currently on the fifth freedom flight from Tokyo to SIN... they wouldn’t have ended it in September 2019 with only slightly over a one-month’s notice. They’d have waited til March 2020 when the other NRT flights move to HND.

The point is, DL obviously was losing money on NRT-SIN with NRT connection feed. Based on that, there is no indication that DL would make money on ICN-SIN either... especially since they can partner with KE’s lower operating costs for onward connections.
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1301
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:38 pm

b777900 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
The SIN end is not surprising with SQ starting SIN-SEA in a couple of months. I find DL saying MNL is higher yielding than we thought surprising. I guess they went with the cheapest operating cost option of running probably a 763ER ICN-MNL instead of launching which what would be revolutionary A339neo SEA-MNL.


CEB Has a brand new International Terminal What if DL flew HND -CEB instead I bet 2 flights a day would always be full.

HND does not allow fifth freedom. And if that's so profitable with so many pax why no one flies TYO/Japan-CEB with widebody?

b777900 wrote:
We do not want to transfer We want DL METAL THE WHOLE WAY

Then I bet say goodbye to 90% of the destinations worldwide. You can NOT fly to everywhere with a single carrier ever.

Michael
 
filipinoavgeek
Posts: 245
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:18 am

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:45 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
And if that's so profitable with so many pax why no one flies TYO/Japan-CEB with widebody?

PR sometimes flies CEB-NRT with A330s during peak seasons.
 
Puissance
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:37 pm

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:39 pm

The economy Detroit fares to Manila were generally at least $1300 on Delta, and the published competitors with two changes of plane were only a couple of hundred dollars cheaper, so, if you weren't willing to go to Chicago or Toronto, they did have a fair number of customers from Detroit though NRT, and the yields were decent compared to Chicago at least.

It is interesting to see that looking at a random trip next June shows that from DTW, they are actually pushing taking the earlier KE flight which has a shorter connection time. In fact, if you want to be on "all DL" metal, it is $350 more for the fare $1780 v $1430. For the return from MNL, you get to take the redeye from MNL on KE at 10 PM, arrive at 4 AM, and then have a six hour layover. Much poorer timing makes it a big downgrade for going to DTW.

Looking at ORD, where DL often has tickets in the $800-900 range, if they have spare capacity, the downgrade in service is worse that DTW. The cheapest ticket is $1471 right now, which is taking DL from Manila followed by a 19 hour layover and the KE flight to ORD. This is the only single connect itinerary to ORD. Most of the itineraries are double connects through MSP. There are four tickets left at under $1500 for double connecting through Detroit.

With Asiana leaving ORD in October, fare have been inching up to MNL. Eighteen months ago, you could get tickets for $561. Then it moved up to $600 being the rock bottom price on Asiana after it announced it was leaving. Fares after they leave are more in the $700-750 range. Eva, Cathay Pacific, Delta, and Qatar have all been low price leaders on various recent searches.
  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos