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lightsaber
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A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:37 pm

We seem to need a thread to discuss future A220 sales.

There is an Asian A220 tour about to kickoff:
Korea
Miramar
Malaysia
Thailand
Vietnam
Japan

All have potential sales.
Korea, the various LCCs
I'm not sure about Miramar
Malaysia is obviously to AirAsia.
Thailand to various LCCs
Vietnam to various LCCs
Japan to ANA, JAL, possible LCC?

We also know Spirit and IAG are evaluating the A220.

Are there any other known campaigns? I do expect KE to order more, but exercising options, while important, is less exciting than new operators.

I wonder if the leasing companies will send representatives on the flights?

Lightsaber
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SEU
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:42 pm

I reckon if a LCC can make the A220 work, this planes sales will go through the roof, if airbus can get the production ramped up. I dont know if a Y145 A220-300 would have good enough CASM vs a A320/321
 
rufusmi
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:48 pm

No such country as Miramar... I believe you’re referring to Myanmar
 
vsflyer747400
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:54 pm

Miramar? I think you mean Myanmar!
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Jean Leloup
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:02 pm

vsflyer747400 wrote:
Miramar? I think you mean Myanmar!


Nope. Word on the street is that Naval Air Station Miramar is going to place an order for 10 A220-300's. They are likely to be used as flying billboards for a recruiting campaign, set to coincide with the new Top Gun movie. Apparently John Travolta has been helping Tom Cruise get certified with an ATPL; should be quite the event. CSALP has found away to grant some quick production slots to make this happen.

Aaaanyway, I think we've done enough piling-on to what was obviously just an auto-correct.

It will be interesting to see whether any orders result from this tour, especially given that this isn't the first time the plan has been to SE Asia for similar purposes. Also, what are the earliest slots Airbus is able to offer for the A220 right now? While the orderbook isn't massive, neither is the production rate. so if a new carrier signed on, how long would it take them to get 2 or 3 frames and start service?

JL
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Olddog
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:03 pm

Birmanie is easier on the tongue anyway :)
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T4thH
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:13 pm

lightsaber wrote:
We seem to need a thread to discuss future A220 sales.

There is an Asian A220 tour about to kickoff:
Korea
Miramar
Malaysia
Thailand
Vietnam
Japan

All have potential sales.
Korea, the various LCCs
I'm not sure about Miramar
Malaysia is obviously to AirAsia.
Thailand to various LCCs
Vietnam to various LCCs
Japan to ANA, JAL, possible LCC?

We also know Spirit and IAG are evaluating the A220.

Are there any other known campaigns? I do expect KE to order more, but exercising options, while important, is less exciting than new operators.

I wonder if the leasing companies will send representatives on the flights?

Lightsaber

Not now, but last year (Nov-2018) there was already the world tour (also an Asia tour and not a world tour) with an A220 from Air Baltic with China (two stops), , Thailand (first time, this tour again), India and Turkey. There was also already an unofficial European tour, where a Swiss or Air Baltic A220 was shown/seen in UK and France.

Please note, regarding this "Asia tour"; Korea is not official part of it, it is just a first stop after the transfer from Alaska over the Pacific ocean.

And this tour was already discussed somewhere else here few days ago.
 
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:58 pm

AM is also looking.

Separate threads for details of A220 vs. E2 bid.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1428331

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trent768
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:12 pm

Kinda sad that Indonesia is not on the list. I thought that GA would need CS1 to replace its CRK and some CS3 for regional routes.
 
XRadar98
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:28 pm

Jean Leloup wrote:
vsflyer747400 wrote:
Miramar? I think you mean Myanmar!


Nope. Word on the street is that Naval Air Station Miramar is going to place an order for 10 A220-300's. They are likely to be used as flying billboards for a recruiting campaign, set to coincide with the new Top Gun movie. Apparently John Travolta has been helping Tom Cruise get certified with an ATPL; should be quite the event. CSALP has found away to grant some quick production slots to make this happen.

Aaaanyway, I think we've done enough piling-on to what was obviously just an auto-correct.

It will be interesting to see whether any orders result from this tour, especially given that this isn't the first time the plan has been to SE Asia for similar purposes. Also, what are the earliest slots Airbus is able to offer for the A220 right now? While the orderbook isn't massive, neither is the production rate. so if a new carrier signed on, how long would it take them to get 2 or 3 frames and start service?

JL


Wow, MCAS Miramar is a NAS again? When did that happen?
 
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kaminari
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:59 pm

Spirit is headquartered in Miramar, FL. Coincidence? :scratchchin:

(Although they actually did bring the Cseries in Swiss colors to FLL on a sales pitch for Spirit a while back.)
 
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lightsaber
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:12 pm

kaminari wrote:
Spirit is headquartered in Miramar, FL. Coincidence? :scratchchin:

(Although they actually did bring the Cseries in Swiss colors to FLL on a sales pitch for Spirit a while back.)

Ok, I took the autocorrect without thinking! Phhhhht


That said, I think there is a good chance that the A220 will end up in bright yellow.

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TObound
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:57 am

Guess we can add Aeromexico to the list?

Aer Lingus at IAG should be the specific target. The A220 is perfect for them.
 
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:09 am

I’m surprised that Oceania isn’t being targeted. Samoa Airways and Fiji Airways with their MAX issues I’d have thought would be (small) targets. Plus Air Niugini lost a 737 in the Micronesia crash and must be looking at regional fleet future options. Air Calin need to replace their ageing A320’s and Air Vanuatu have already order both current A220 models.

Plus, there is Air New Zealand, Qantas, Virgin Australia, JetStar etc in the region.
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:50 am

Come to think of it---another place where the A220 should be sent is Casablanca, to try to pitch Royal Air Maroc on this. The A220-300 has greater ranger than the Boeing 737-800 and slightly less than the -700, and could be used to open up thinner routes throughout West Africa for which the B738 or B38M would be too much plane. The smaller -100 could also replace the four E190s, which are all leased.

Since there's a separate thread for AM/5D, I'll discuss that there.
 
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:41 am

lightsaber wrote:
Malaysia is obviously to AirAsia.


Actually a regional jet like the A220 is also suitable for MH to serve domestic routes with low demand, especially for trans-Borneo service that requires something bigger than the ATR-72.
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:43 am

Southwest is rumored to be discussing the A220.
 
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:49 am

UpNAWAy wrote:
Southwest is rumored to be discussing the A220.

WN is also rumored to be looking for a better deal from Boeing in the future by “discussing” something they’re 99 percent unlikely to do. Unless and this is a big unless, a new era at WN is about to dawn.
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:22 am

Oh what I'd do to see a Qantas, Virgin Australia or Air New Zealand A220 <3
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flee
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:25 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Malaysia is obviously to AirAsia.

Actually a regional jet like the A220 is also suitable for MH to serve domestic routes with low demand, especially for trans-Borneo service that requires something bigger than the ATR-72.

Airasia actually prefers GE technology - so the CFM LEAP is their preferred choice. Besides, they are already finding the A320 a bit too small and are migrating to A321s.

It would be interesting to see if MH (they have PW engines on their A330s) would order the A220-300 - this has about the same capacity as the B734 that they used to operate for a long time. If they order the A220-300 and upgrade all their Max orders to the B737-10, they may find that they have a very flexible fleet to operate their various high and low demand routes.
 
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:23 am

LoganTheBogan wrote:
Oh what I'd do to see a Qantas, Virgin Australia or Air New Zealand A220 <3


I just cannot see Qantas not ordering the A220, it's the perfect way to replace all those different types. Also a good opportunity for the A220-100.

Image

As much is i would love a ANZ order, it's really unlikely given the A320neo order.
Caravelle lover
 
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lightsaber
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:58 am

LaunchDetected wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
Oh what I'd do to see a Qantas, Virgin Australia or Air New Zealand A220 <3


I just cannot see Qantas not ordering the A220, it's the perfect way to replace all those different types. Also a good opportunity for the A220-100.

Image

As much is i would love a ANZ order, it's really unlikely given the A320neo order.

For QF, a mixed A220-100/-300 fleet would indeed replace multiple fleet types.

So an Oceana your is past due. ;)

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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:12 am

LaunchDetected wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
Oh what I'd do to see a Qantas, Virgin Australia or Air New Zealand A220 <3


I just cannot see Qantas not ordering the A220, it's the perfect way to replace all those different types. Also a good opportunity for the A220-100.

Image

As much is i would love a ANZ order, it's really unlikely given the A320neo order.


lightsaber wrote:
For QF, a mixed A220-100/-300 fleet would indeed replace multiple fleet types.

So an Oceana your is past due. ;)

Lightsaber


There are not a lot of EMB aircraft in Australasia, Virgin swapped theirs out for turboprops to save a few bob on operating costs but there are a fair amount of F100's and they will need replacing at some point. Also Australia needs bigger single aisle planes but it has a duopoly that sees adding seats as squeezing margins for some reason, as a result its usually cheaper to fly 6hr into Asia than 2 hours to regional Australia so I'm not sure its going to be a big market for the A220
BV
 
TObound
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:18 am

dampfnudel wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
Southwest is rumored to be discussing the A220.

WN is also rumored to be looking for a better deal from Boeing in the future by “discussing” something they’re 99 percent unlikely to do. Unless and this is a big unless, a new era at WN is about to dawn.


There are times I wish airlines like Southwest, Ryanair and easyJet were told to take a hike by the OEMs. Refuse to bid. Force them to pay more. But that would help the competitor OEM....
 
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lightsaber
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:12 pm

TObound wrote:
dampfnudel wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
Southwest is rumored to be discussing the A220.

WN is also rumored to be looking for a better deal from Boeing in the future by “discussing” something they’re 99 percent unlikely to do. Unless and this is a big unless, a new era at WN is about to dawn.


There are times I wish airlines like Southwest, Ryanair and easyJet were told to take a hike by the OEMs. Refuse to bid. Force them to pay more. But that would help the competitor OEM....

They buy aircraft in bulk, so they receive bulk discounts. If Southwest were to buy the A220, it would dramatically boost interest by other airlines. Because WN and DL buy so many used narrowbody aircraft, leasing companies would order many due to the perceived reduced risk.

For Airbus to break into WN is worth a fortune. They must bid. EasyJet was the largest A319 buyer, why wouldn't Airbus try to sell A220-300s in bulk to them?

Ignore the largest buyers in a segment, not a sound business strategy. What would the OEMs gain?

I have hope EasyJet, FlyDubai, and Indigo will buy A220s. But unlikely this year.

I hope the Asia tour produces sales. The Korean and Thai LCCs would make good money on the A220, but are their sales campaigns mature enough? I suspect they might be 2020 buyers.


My concern is what other active sales campaigns might close in 2019. Spirit, IAG, Aeromexico seem to be the big ones with the best potential. I'm equally happy if the E2 wins as first, I am a Pratt fan.

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SteelChair
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:22 pm

In spite of countless hurdles, the A220 continues to achieve market penetration. Each new order makes further orders more likely, as more and more carrers have to buy them to compete. Hopefully, Airbus is able to achieve a higher price than Bombardier was able to get. To me, the combination of the size (5 abreast) and the tech (wing, cockpit, and engine) guarantee success.
 
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:16 pm

SteelChair wrote:
In spite of countless hurdles, the A220 continues to achieve market penetration. Each new order makes further orders more likely, as more and more carrers have to buy them to compete. Hopefully, Airbus is able to achieve a higher price than Bombardier was able to get. To me, the combination of the size (5 abreast) and the tech (wing, cockpit, and engine) guarantee success.


The biggest hurdle today is probably the production rate. They have to ramp faster.

By the end of 2024, they will have produced maybe ~700 aircraft. And they already have ~600 orders. Sure ~100 of those might not materialize. But between existing orders and options likely to materialize, they are effectively sold out through 2024. Their refusal to ramp faster is probably hurting sales.
 
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:36 pm

TObound wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
In spite of countless hurdles, the A220 continues to achieve market penetration. Each new order makes further orders more likely, as more and more carrers have to buy them to compete. Hopefully, Airbus is able to achieve a higher price than Bombardier was able to get. To me, the combination of the size (5 abreast) and the tech (wing, cockpit, and engine) guarantee success.


The biggest hurdle today is probably the production rate. They have to ramp faster.

By the end of 2024, they will have produced maybe ~700 aircraft. And they already have ~600 orders. Sure ~100 of those might not materialize. But between existing orders and options likely to materialize, they are effectively sold out through 2024. Their refusal to ramp faster is probably hurting sales.


Refusal? They're building another factory while they continue to increase the production rate at tbe existing one. What refusal?
 
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flee
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:01 pm

I doubt it is a refusal - it is more about getting the supply chain up to the speed that they want. Otherwise, they can't ramp up production further.
 
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:23 pm

Whilst it wouldn't be a large order I can see airlines in Myanmar ordering a few of these to rationalise their fleets.
 
TObound
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:02 pm

SteelChair wrote:
TObound wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
In spite of countless hurdles, the A220 continues to achieve market penetration. Each new order makes further orders more likely, as more and more carrers have to buy them to compete. Hopefully, Airbus is able to achieve a higher price than Bombardier was able to get. To me, the combination of the size (5 abreast) and the tech (wing, cockpit, and engine) guarantee success.


The biggest hurdle today is probably the production rate. They have to ramp faster.

By the end of 2024, they will have produced maybe ~700 aircraft. And they already have ~600 orders. Sure ~100 of those might not materialize. But between existing orders and options likely to materialize, they are effectively sold out through 2024. Their refusal to ramp faster is probably hurting sales.


Refusal? They're building another factory while they continue to increase the production rate at tbe existing one. What refusal?


Paid for by Bombardier as part of the original deal. Airbus hasn't actually put in much of their own cash to date.

Imagine what could be accomplished if Airbus was serious about the 220 and willing to put in its resources to ramp to 20 per month by 2025.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:05 pm

TObound wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
TObound wrote:

The biggest hurdle today is probably the production rate. They have to ramp faster.

By the end of 2024, they will have produced maybe ~700 aircraft. And they already have ~600 orders. Sure ~100 of those might not materialize. But between existing orders and options likely to materialize, they are effectively sold out through 2024. Their refusal to ramp faster is probably hurting sales.


Refusal? They're building another factory while they continue to increase the production rate at tbe existing one. What refusal?


Paid for by Bombardier as part of the original deal. Airbus hasn't actually put in much of their own cash to date.

And how's that a problem? It was part of the deal between Airbus, Bombardier and Investissement Quebec. They all agreed to the conditions.
 
StTim
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:11 pm

The supply chain for an aircraft is vast and complex.

The ceo cannot just state I want to go from rate 5 to rate 25 in a year and it will be acheived.

Go too fast and quality will suffer.

I am sure Airbus are working hard to improve the production rate.
 
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:40 pm

TObound wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
TObound wrote:

The biggest hurdle today is probably the production rate. They have to ramp faster.

By the end of 2024, they will have produced maybe ~700 aircraft. And they already have ~600 orders. Sure ~100 of those might not materialize. But between existing orders and options likely to materialize, they are effectively sold out through 2024. Their refusal to ramp faster is probably hurting sales.


Refusal? They're building another factory while they continue to increase the production rate at tbe existing one. What refusal?


Paid for by Bombardier as part of the original deal. Airbus hasn't actually put in much of their own cash to date.

Imagine what could be accomplished if Airbus was serious about the 220 and willing to put in its resources to ramp to 20 per month by 2025.


Sonce you have inside information, please tell us how much Airbus is spending on the Mobile factory? Also, how many engineers and sales people from Airbus have been working in the program, and how much other technical support Airbus has invested?

My guess is that Airbus has already made significant investments and are still just getting started.
 
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:53 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
And how's that a problem? It was part of the deal between Airbus, Bombardier and Investissement Quebec. They all agreed to the conditions.


The problem here is lost opportunity if they lose order because they can't ramp fast enough.

StTim wrote:
The supply chain for an aircraft is vast and complex.

The ceo cannot just state I want to go from rate 5 to rate 25 in a year and it will be acheived.

Go too fast and quality will suffer.

I am sure Airbus are working hard to improve the production rate.


I get that. That's why I said by 2025. I wasn't suggesting they ramp 5x in a year.

SteelChair wrote:
Sonce you have inside information, please tell us how much Airbus is spending on the Mobile factory? Also, how many engineers and sales people from Airbus have been working in the program, and how much other technical support Airbus has invested?

My guess is that Airbus has already made significant investments and are still just getting started.


No need to get snippy. I'm not stating anything that isn't public information. Go through their financial results. They aren't showing much particular spending on the 220. Largely because Bombardier is obligated to cover program losses for a few years. I am just dismayed that they can't all come together and agree to spend a bit to ramp higher and a bit faster.

Keep in mind Bombardier had previously said they could get to 10 planes per month by 2020. And not Airbus says they can't hit that till mid next decade. Surely, they can be a bit more ambitious now that the plane is selling.
 
SteelChair
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:00 pm

TObound wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
And how's that a problem? It was part of the deal between Airbus, Bombardier and Investissement Quebec. They all agreed to the conditions.


The problem here is lost opportunity if they lose order because they can't ramp fast enough.

StTim wrote:
The supply chain for an aircraft is vast and complex.

The ceo cannot just state I want to go from rate 5 to rate 25 in a year and it will be acheived.

Go too fast and quality will suffer.

I am sure Airbus are working hard to improve the production rate.


I get that. That's why I said by 2025. I wasn't suggesting they ramp 5x in a year.

SteelChair wrote:
Sonce you have inside information, please tell us how much Airbus is spending on the Mobile factory? Also, how many engineers and sales people from Airbus have been working in the program, and how much other technical support Airbus has invested?

My guess is that Airbus has already made significant investments and are still just getting started.


No need to get snippy. I'm not stating anything that isn't public information. Go through their financial results. They aren't showing much particular spending on the 220. Largely because Bombardier is obligated to cover program losses for a few years. I am just dismayed that they can't all come together and agree to spend a bit to ramp higher and a bit faster.

Keep in mind Bombardier had previously said they could get to 10 planes per month by 2020. And not Airbus says they can't hit that till mid next decade. Surely, they can be a bit more ambitious now that the plane is selling.


Relying on financial reporting for such information seems unrealistic to me. And I guess I missed Airbus saying they won't get to 10/mo till 2025. Imho they will be there by 2021-22.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:24 pm

TObound wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
And how's that a problem? It was part of the deal between Airbus, Bombardier and Investissement Quebec. They all agreed to the conditions.


The problem here is lost opportunity if they lose order because they can't ramp fast enough.

I was responding to that comment of yours:
Paid for by Bombardier as part of the original deal. Airbus hasn't actually put in much of their own cash to date.
 
TObound
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:45 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Relying on financial reporting for such information seems unrealistic to me. And I guess I missed Airbus saying they won't get to 10/mo till 2025. Imho they will be there by 2021-22.


Relying on financial information is the point. They are a publicly traded company. If they aren't reporting realistic numbers, that would be fraud.

You can read about the production ramp slowdown here:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ghest-risk

I suspect a lot of reluctance to invest in ramping higher and faster, has to do with the fact that they don't own the program entirely and can't buy out Investment Quebec till 2024 and Bombardier till 2026. Investment which grows the program simply boosts the value of the shares they want to buy back.
 
Dash9
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:00 pm

TObound wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Relying on financial reporting for such information seems unrealistic to me. And I guess I missed Airbus saying they won't get to 10/mo till 2025. Imho they will be there by 2021-22.


Relying on financial information is the point. They are a publicly traded company. If they aren't reporting realistic numbers, that would be fraud.

You can read about the production ramp slowdown here:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ghest-risk

I suspect a lot of reluctance to invest in ramping higher and faster, has to do with the fact that they don't own the program entirely and can't buy out Investment Quebec till 2024 and Bombardier till 2026. Investment which grows the program simply boosts the value of the shares they want to buy back.



Financial results is mostly about 'what was' (e.g. last year), not so much about 'what will/might be'
 
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:27 pm

TObound wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Relying on financial reporting for such information seems unrealistic to me. And I guess I missed Airbus saying they won't get to 10/mo till 2025. Imho they will be there by 2021-22.


Relying on financial information is the point. They are a publicly traded company. If they aren't reporting realistic numbers, that would be fraud.

You can read about the production ramp slowdown here:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ghest-risk

I suspect a lot of reluctance to invest in ramping higher and faster, has to do with the fact that they don't own the program entirely and can't buy out Investment Quebec till 2024 and Bombardier till 2026. Investment which grows the program simply boosts the value of the shares they want to buy back.


Thanks for the link. I was unaware they were that pessimistic. I think they'll beat their own projections

And I've always felt like financial reports were contrived.
 
aryonoco
Posts: 673
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 1:51 am

Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:41 pm

BoeingVista wrote:
There are not a lot of EMB aircraft in Australasia, Virgin swapped theirs out for turboprops to save a few bob on operating costs but there are a fair amount of F100's and they will need replacing at some point. Also Australia needs bigger single aisle planes but it has a duopoly that sees adding seats as squeezing margins for some reason, as a result its usually cheaper to fly 6hr into Asia than 2 hours to regional Australia so I'm not sure its going to be a big market for the A220


I definitely see the A220 playing a major role in the Qantas fleet.

The average age of the F100 fleet is 27 years and the average age of the 717 fleet is nearing 18 years. They have both shown themselves to be highly reliable aircraft, but at some point, maintenance is going to become more expensive and they will have to be replaced. A combined A221 and A223 order is almost a perfect replacement for this and would help QF in fleet harmonisation.

QF is going to decide on their narrowbody fleet in 2020 or 2021. Joyce will want to get that done before he leaves.
 
P3guy
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:49 pm

Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:47 pm

Had the chance to experience the Delta A220, fantastic ride, the new "Rocket Ship" power response reminded me of the first time I took off in a 757-200.
 
TObound
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:13 am

SteelChair wrote:
TObound wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Relying on financial reporting for such information seems unrealistic to me. And I guess I missed Airbus saying they won't get to 10/mo till 2025. Imho they will be there by 2021-22.


Relying on financial information is the point. They are a publicly traded company. If they aren't reporting realistic numbers, that would be fraud.

You can read about the production ramp slowdown here:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ghest-risk

I suspect a lot of reluctance to invest in ramping higher and faster, has to do with the fact that they don't own the program entirely and can't buy out Investment Quebec till 2024 and Bombardier till 2026. Investment which grows the program simply boosts the value of the shares they want to buy back.


Thanks for the link. I was unaware they were that pessimistic. I think they'll beat their own projections

And I've always felt like financial reports were contrived.


The Bombardier deal had Bombardier paying all the costs of the program, for 3 years, capped at just under a billion dollars I believe.

So all the construction we're seeing is still Bombardier funding, with perhaps some Airbus expertise and sourcing.

I'm not yet sure if this all a result of Airbus trying to keep the program down till they can buy out the rest cheaply, or just residual caution from not knowing what they would have to deal with. I hope the orders coming in really encourages them to consider moving their timeline forward. As of now, the only way I see them investing a ton into the program before 2025 is if Boeing launches a new program.
 
TObound
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:43 am

What's interesting here is that mainlines are ordering the 220, while regional operators are ordering the E2. Sort of looks like the E2 might replace EJets and CRJs. While the 220s are replacing 318s, 319s, 320s, 73Gs and 738s.
 
ExMilitaryEng
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm

Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:14 am

TObound wrote:
The Bombardier deal had Bombardier paying all the costs of the program, for 3 years, capped at just under a billion dollars I believe.

So all the construction we're seeing is still Bombardier funding, with perhaps some Airbus expertise and sourcing.


What you are saying is accurate.

In exchange of those up front investments, Bombardier obtains non-voting preferred shares of the partnership, paying a low 2 or 3% annual dividends. "Non-voting" as Airbus wanted to maintain its 50.01% majority ownership.

Those non-voting shares will eventually be bought back (at face value) by Airbus, alongside the rest of the voting shares (at market value) still owned by BBD and Investissement Québec.

So yes, Bombardier indeed finances those investments up front - but will get all that money back when Airbus takes full ownership.
 
fessor
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:29 pm

I can see a possible order from Bangkok Airways, the A220-300 could be the perfect plane for them.
Maybe also a small order from TG for flights to Koh Samui and smaller domestic flights.
 
SXDFC
Posts: 1962
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:07 pm

Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:10 pm

dampfnudel wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
Southwest is rumored to be discussing the A220.

WN is also rumored to be looking for a better deal from Boeing in the future by “discussing” something they’re 99 percent unlikely to do. Unless and this is a big unless, a new era at WN is about to dawn.


Few months ago they did make a trip to kick the tires on the A220-300..
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 412
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 am

Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:53 am

SXDFC wrote:
dampfnudel wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
Southwest is rumored to be discussing the A220.

WN is also rumored to be looking for a better deal from Boeing in the future by “discussing” something they’re 99 percent unlikely to do. Unless and this is a big unless, a new era at WN is about to dawn.


Few months ago they did make a trip to kick the tires on the A220-300..

It’s possible that eventually WN may realize that Boeing doesn’t have the appropriate aircraft for some of their routes. More likely is WN trying to make Boeing sweat by doing more than just saying they’re interested in the A220.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

AA AI CO CL DE DL EA HA KL LH N7 PA PQ SK RO TW UA YR
 
TObound
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:01 am

dampfnudel wrote:
SXDFC wrote:
dampfnudel wrote:
WN is also rumored to be looking for a better deal from Boeing in the future by “discussing” something they’re 99 percent unlikely to do. Unless and this is a big unless, a new era at WN is about to dawn.


Few months ago they did make a trip to kick the tires on the A220-300..

It’s possible that eventually WN may realize that Boeing doesn’t have the appropriate aircraft for some of their routes. More likely is WN trying to make Boeing sweat by doing more than just saying they’re interested in the A220.


Southwest is trying to figure out how Moxy is going to take a chunk out of them.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 17908
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:32 am

TObound wrote:
dampfnudel wrote:
SXDFC wrote:

Few months ago they did make a trip to kick the tires on the A220-300..

It’s possible that eventually WN may realize that Boeing doesn’t have the appropriate aircraft for some of their routes. More likely is WN trying to make Boeing sweat by doing more than just saying they’re interested in the A220.


Southwest is trying to figure out how Moxy is going to take a chunk out of them.

Southwest doesn't have the computer infrastructure nor cost structure to take on this new entrants that will go after the markets WN hasn't focused on in a decade.

WN needs to be flexible enough to have a low cost per flight aircraft from these secondary airports. WN cannot shift aircraft as Moxie intends to.

Of all the airlines looking at the A220, I take Southwest the least seriously. Airbus should talk with them, but realize there role in this dance and bid accordingly.

Southwest hasn't done the groundwork for a 2nd type. They ended up subsidizing DL to take 717s. It is because their IT just costs too much to have two (or more) types. For other airlines, it just isn't a big deal to run two types. The Asian LCC often run turboprops for example. For WN and FR, it is a huge issue to even contemplate a second type. Meh.

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