Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
DTWLAX
Topic Author
Posts: 1105
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:20 am

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... yptr=yahoo

A couple of months ago we heard employees complaining about poor quality at the Boeing Charleston, SC plant.
Now leaked documents show that customers have been complaining about the poor quality issues related to the Dreamliner.
These complaints are from KL, SQ, BR, EY, AA.
KL complaints give some details about the poor quality of the product delivered. I wonder how many more quality issues are going to come out.
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2105
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:31 am

"Not all airlines participate and results are sometimes skewed by supplier woes that can be out of Boeing’s control, the newspaper explained. "

"Overall, Boeing received score of 3.5 out of 5 overall in its surveys — and it wasn't all bad news."

While the survey writeups are concerning - that's what the surveys are there for, to solicit feedback.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
Jetty
Posts: 1286
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:35 am

KLM noted several issues, including a loose seat, missing or wrongly installed cotter pins, nuts not fully tightened, an unsecured fuel line clamp and several unspecified missing parts.

“Who looks at quality in this facility,” KLM asked, adding the airline “is worried for the next deliveries.”
:wideeyed:
 
GoSharks
Posts: 150
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:23 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:35 am

You won't find a single manufacturer of anything that doesn't receive poor quality complaints from customers. None of this really means anything without a baseline reference from the entire industry.
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 895
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:37 am

I flew on a brand new 787 on China Southern, and the seat recline was broken. Also, I was not happy with a lot of the panels that were loose. Overall, it felt lower quality compared to older planes.
 
Pontius
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:19 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:46 am

I’ve had the privilege of participating in the delivery of an airliner. No perceptible discrepancies are tolerated. It just doesn’t happen. If something is wrong it is either fixed, or compensated for, but usually fixed. Multiple people spend multiple days ensuring that it’s a good machine. Either it’s perfect or the papers aren’t signed. This allegation befuddles me.
 
trex8
Posts: 5575
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:52 am

Pontius wrote:
I’ve had the privilege of participating in the delivery of an airliner. No perceptible discrepancies are tolerated. It just doesn’t happen. If something is wrong it is either fixed, or compensated for, but usually fixed. Multiple people spend multiple days ensuring that it’s a good machine. Either it’s perfect or the papers aren’t signed. This allegation befuddles me.

Do all airlines do "white glove" inspections or is it optional for customers?
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2603
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:58 am

Ziyulu wrote:
I flew on a brand new 787 on China Southern, and the seat recline was broken. Also, I was not happy with a lot of the panels that were loose. Overall, it felt lower quality compared to older planes.


Well, this seals it.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:07 am

trex8 wrote:
Pontius wrote:
I’ve had the privilege of participating in the delivery of an airliner. No perceptible discrepancies are tolerated. It just doesn’t happen. If something is wrong it is either fixed, or compensated for, but usually fixed. Multiple people spend multiple days ensuring that it’s a good machine. Either it’s perfect or the papers aren’t signed. This allegation befuddles me.

Do all airlines do "white glove" inspections or is it optional for customers?



Some airlines have one or more reps permanently stationed at PAE or BFI just to do pre delivery inspections. DL is/was one of them.
 
Ellofiend
Posts: 166
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:13 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:12 am

Pontius wrote:
I’ve had the privilege of participating in the delivery of an airliner. No perceptible discrepancies are tolerated. It just doesn’t happen. If something is wrong it is either fixed, or compensated for, but usually fixed. Multiple people spend multiple days ensuring that it’s a good machine. Either it’s perfect or the papers aren’t signed. This allegation befuddles me.


Ditto, if anyone has watched the B747-400 delivery to British Airways, even the smallest of things are addressed. If there is anything wrong then the aircraft should not have been accepted!? If the customers have these high expectations then they should simply refuse the aircraft until the problems are fixed, that is what the airline representative inspectors are for are they not? The airline has inspected the aircraft beforehand and yet people are saying that brand new aircraft have problems with them, surely that is not the fault of the manufacturer for delivering an aircraft with surface faults!? The manufacturers I would assume do preliminary checks to make sure the vital components are working and the test-flights and inspections should seek out and remove any surface deep problems that may be present if the carriers really do harbour their "high-quality standards" then the aircraft should be left at the plant until the problems are rectified, unless of course, the airline has been overly ambitious with their ETS or the manufacturer has overrun the delivery deadline in which case the manufacturer is indeed at fault but there has not been any mention of either so I would assume this is lousy reporting or the airlines are blaming the manufacturers for their own slap-happiness.
P.S. Sounds like another cry for higher wages and more employee benefits
 
RB211trent
Posts: 158
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:35 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:56 am

Ellofiend wrote:
Pontius wrote:
I’ve had the privilege of participating in the delivery of an airliner. No perceptible discrepancies are tolerated. It just doesn’t happen. If something is wrong it is either fixed, or compensated for, but usually fixed. Multiple people spend multiple days ensuring that it’s a good machine. Either it’s perfect or the papers aren’t signed. This allegation befuddles me.


Ditto, if anyone has watched the B747-400 delivery to British Airways, even the smallest of things are addressed. If there is anything wrong then the aircraft should not have been accepted!? If the customers have these high expectations then they should simply refuse the aircraft until the problems are fixed, that is what the airline representative inspectors are for are they not? The airline has inspected the aircraft beforehand and yet people are saying that brand new aircraft have problems with them, surely that is not the fault of the manufacturer for delivering an aircraft with surface faults!? The manufacturers I would assume do preliminary checks to make sure the vital components are working and the test-flights and inspections should seek out and remove any surface deep problems that may be present if the carriers really do harbour their "high-quality standards" then the aircraft should be left at the plant until the problems are rectified, unless of course, the airline has been overly ambitious with their ETS or the manufacturer has overrun the delivery deadline in which case the manufacturer is indeed at fault but there has not been any mention of either so I would assume this is lousy reporting or the airlines are blaming the manufacturers for their own slap-happiness.
P.S. Sounds like another cry for higher wages and more employee benefits

You seem to be passing the blame for poor quality on delivery to the customer for not doing their inspections properly. It is up to the manufacturer to ensure quality standards and is solely their responsibility for themselves and their suppliers.
 
spacecadet
Posts: 3566
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:08 am

RB211trent wrote:
You seem to be passing the blame for poor quality on delivery to the customer for not doing their inspections properly. It is up to the manufacturer to ensure quality standards and is solely their responsibility for themselves and their suppliers.


It's not really passing the blame - these are all issues that both sides should be catching prior to a plane's delivery. They shouldn't be happening in the first place, but this is why airlines do rigorous inspections. They test every single thing on the plane - or are supposed to - prior to acceptance. The fact is that planes are highly complex machines and certain things that don't affect flight (which are issues that would be prioritized) are probably just going to get missed when you have millions of parts to deal with on a plane. A loose seat is a perfect example. That is exactly the kind of thing that acceptance flights and inspections are for, and exactly the kind of thing that's easy for a manufacturer to miss.

The swiss cheese model applies here as it does everywhere else in aviation. The airline inspection and acceptance flights are an important part of that swiss cheese model when it comes to production quality - remove them or reduce their effectiveness and you remove a layer of checks and balances that's intended to ensure that passengers fly in planes that don't have problems like this. The passengers are everyone's responsibility, not just Boeing's.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2105
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:32 am

Ellofiend wrote:
Ditto, if anyone has watched the B747-400 delivery to British Airways, even the smallest of things are addressed. If there is anything wrong then the aircraft should not have been accepted!? If the customers have these high expectations then they should simply refuse the aircraft until the problems are fixed, that is what the airline representative inspectors are for are they not? The airline has inspected the aircraft beforehand and yet people are saying that brand new aircraft have problems with them, surely that is not the fault of the manufacturer for delivering an aircraft with surface faults!?


Reading the article I am under the impression that the problems in the survey were discovered at the customer acceptance phase, hence talk about delayed deliveries etc.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
smartplane
Posts: 1506
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:59 am

Some minor defects, at Airbus and Boeing, are to be expected, just as happens when your car dealer performs a pre-delivery inspection.

Acceptance is a very specialised process, which may involve representatives from the airline and lessor and / or lead financier. They are looking for faults, issues and damage.

If these airlines are advising they are finding more faults than in previous deliveries, and / or more faults than in an equivalent Airbus product, that does highlight production / testing issues.

When OEM's are volume stressed, it has seemed as if there's a tendency to use customers to undertake QA work, when it should have been identified before the customer ever saw the finished product.

Major airlines have permanent representatives with A & B, rotated at intervals, so the relationship doesn't become too comfortable.

When QA is working really well, the OEM produces a list for the customer / owner of identified defects, and the corrective action undertaken, or still to be actioned.
 
raylee67
Posts: 885
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:06 am

Based on the detailed feedback in the news article, it seems that the airlines DID do the acceptance inspection properly and they were complaining about what they saw during the inspection, not what they see AFTER they have accepted delivery. They actually were stating they find so many problems that they cannot accept the aircraft after inspection, causing delays in delivery, so it seems to me that it's squarely on Boeing to do their part of quality control to prevent so many problems falling thru.

For example:
- SQ's comment: "said problems delayed an April delivery, including missing pieces and a scratched flight deck window that had to be replaced."
- EY's comment: "deliveries were delayed because the planes still needed work after they left the assembly building"
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI LX
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
questions
Posts: 2337
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:28 am

Of course these brand new aircraft should be inspected with a fine tooth comb. They cost 100’s of millions of dollars! Hasn’t anyone bought a new car?
 
marcelh
Posts: 1028
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:14 am

GoSharks wrote:
You won't find a single manufacturer of anything that doesn't receive poor quality complaints from customers. None of this really means anything without a baseline reference from the entire industry.

No. It has to meet the baseline which is agreed upon between OEM and airline.
 
HaulSudson
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:02 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:28 am

The bean counters at B are very happy with the quality but the costs need to be brought down a little more.
 
User avatar
InsideMan
Posts: 353
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:49 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:08 am

GoSharks wrote:
You won't find a single manufacturer of anything that doesn't receive poor quality complaints from customers. None of this really means anything without a baseline reference from the entire industry.


Absolutely not!
And while yes, the customer has his quality inspection rep present during manufacturing and later during delivery, this should not happen!
The quality log book should be as thin as possible!

Yes, you find a lot during customer acceptance inspections, but for every fault they find, you can expect one or two that go unnoticed.
THIS is the scary part....
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4430
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:35 am

Doesn't really surprise me. Every single 787 I've been on felt shoddy and low quality. They rattle like crazy on the ground. Interior panels are poorly fitted, often rub against each other making it squeek. On one 2 year old plane, I found that the FAs stuffed the corners between 2 panels with wads of tissue paper to prevent them from making noise. The window control buttons in particular are really poor quality, they don't even last a year before beginning to break apart. And this isn't just 1 airline or 1 flight, this is 8 flights on 8 different airlines just this year.

This is the complete opposite of my experiences on the 777 and A330. Old and new(ish), they all seem well built. The interiors certainly didn't look like they were falling apart.

And on top we have the 737MAX flaws, the KLM 737-800 that had to be redone, KC-46 issues and all that we already know about the 787. To say that Boeing has a quality control problem is an understatement.
 
LJ
Posts: 5332
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:57 am

trex8 wrote:
Pontius wrote:
I’ve had the privilege of participating in the delivery of an airliner. No perceptible discrepancies are tolerated. It just doesn’t happen. If something is wrong it is either fixed, or compensated for, but usually fixed. Multiple people spend multiple days ensuring that it’s a good machine. Either it’s perfect or the papers aren’t signed. This allegation befuddles me.

Do all airlines do "white glove" inspections or is it optional for customers?


Delivery of KLM's firt 787-10 was delayed a day due to the issues they had with their first 787-10. Thus it wasn't accepted by KLM.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1425849

Jetty wrote:
KLM noted several issues, including a loose seat, missing or wrongly installed cotter pins, nuts not fully tightened, an unsecured fuel line clamp and several unspecified missing parts.


Thus no documentation issues of the fuel tank as previously thought?

GoSharks wrote:
You won't find a single manufacturer of anything that doesn't receive poor quality complaints from customers. None of this really means anything without a baseline reference from the entire industry.


I wonder in what line of business you work. However, if I pay millions for a 787 I do expect that the manufacturer has a system which ensures good quality. The strong way KLM worded it's concerns are probably not because they found only small issues. Moreover, when a long term client speaks about your product this way, it should mean something.
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2701
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:08 am

In the late 90s, when switching from the Classic to the NG, Boeing encountered serious production issues. When they started producing the 787 in Charleston, the quality was so inferior to Seattle products some customers refused taking aircraft produced in Charleston. When Boeing started producing the KC-46 in numbers, the USAF cried foul and refused to accept deliveries due to the unsatisfactory quality of the finished product.

Poor quality is, sadly, a theme that raises it's ugly head around Boeing products on an almost predictable schedule. Using all your available cash to buy back stocks and pay dividends is hardly any reassurance they've learned a lesson nor, indeed, that they're willing to throw money at the problem to solve the issues. Boeing is all about cost cutting, stock buybacks and paying dividend, because that raises the stock prices and that's how their senior management is getting rich. It's incredibly short sighted, but what else to expect from a company seemingly unable to look further than the next quarterly?
Signature. You just read one.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1028
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:10 am

LJ wrote:
Moreover, when a long term client speaks about your product this way, it should mean something.

It does mean nothing. Deflecting to another OEM would mean something, but that won’t happen.
 
ACATROYAL
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:25 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:13 am

Boeing's current top management's attempt at being cheap, cutting corners, pushing monthly production levels to unrealistic levels is coming back to haunt them big time! Boeing's excellent reputation built by previous quality management is being eroded very quickly down to a level that will permanently damage their reputation and may even result in Boeing's demise!

There is a very simple lesson for all companies to learn from and that is...DON'T BE CHEAP!
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9628
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:44 am

If you think other OEMs running their production lines and 100% capacity have fewer of such problems, you might be mistaken.
 
BAeRJ100
Posts: 441
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:49 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:25 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
I flew on a brand new 787 on China Southern, and the seat recline was broken. Also, I was not happy with a lot of the panels that were loose. Overall, it felt lower quality compared to older planes.


You have no idea, buddy. Particularly relating to the seat - unless you know for a fact you were the first-ever person to sit in it, there's every chance that it was damaged by a previous occupant. I have seen seats break from people leaning on them wrong, thumping down in them too hard, trying to push it forward, etc. There is no discernible proof that this issue is related to Boeing in any way, shape or form.
B737/738/739/744ER/752/753/763/77L/77W/788/789
A223/320/321/332/333/346/359/388
MD82/MD88/717/F100/RJ85/RJ100/146-100/200/300
E175/190/CRJ700/900
 
smokeybandit
Posts: 1379
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:46 pm

And I'm sure customers from every other manufacturer never complained about those aircraft.
 
AirwayBill
Posts: 181
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:37 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:02 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Doesn't really surprise me. Every single 787 I've been on felt shoddy and low quality. They rattle like crazy on the ground. Interior panels are poorly fitted, often rub against each other making it squeek. On one 2 year old plane, I found that the FAs stuffed the corners between 2 panels with wads of tissue paper to prevent them from making noise. The window control buttons in particular are really poor quality, they don't even last a year before beginning to break apart. And this isn't just 1 airline or 1 flight, this is 8 flights on 8 different airlines just this year.

This is the complete opposite of my experiences on the 777 and A330. Old and new(ish), they all seem well built. The interiors certainly didn't look like they were falling apart.

And on top we have the 737MAX flaws, the KLM 737-800 that had to be redone, KC-46 issues and all that we already know about the 787. To say that Boeing has a quality control problem is an understatement.


True. 787 Sky Interior looks and feels extremely flimsy.
Last time was on a -9 frame that was barely a week old (!!!), felt like the sidewall and window frame was falling apart already, add to that a weird liquid that seemed to be leaking from a window panel.
Feels like it was put together like a Kinder Surprise toy, never had that feeling onboard the 747, 777, A350, A330...
 
BrianWilkes
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:03 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:30 pm

Also Qantas. There inside of there 787 aircraft are falling apart!
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2487
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:35 pm

ACATROYAL wrote:
Boeing's current top management's attempt at being cheap, cutting corners, pushing monthly production levels to unrealistic levels is coming back to haunt them big time! Boeing's excellent reputation built by previous quality management is being eroded very quickly down to a level that will permanently damage their reputation and may even result in Boeing's demise!

There is a very simple lesson for all companies to learn from and that is...DON'T BE CHEAP!


Time to break-up Boeing and bring back Lockheed, Douglas, etc.
Duopolies are bad for the customer.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4214
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:39 pm

It was a Charleston, South Carolina newspaper that did this story. Their stance, like good papers almost everywhere, is generally to be supportive of the home team. But honest and brave when criticism is due. The built in (proper) bias of both reporters and management would be to check and then double check really negative things - and if the story holds true - Print it. They did.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
TC957
Posts: 3809
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:40 pm

Good job QR aren't taking new Boeing deliveries currently otherwise Al Baker will implode with rage and criticisms. Boeing better start doing better quality control before QR get their 789's.
 
User avatar
747classic
Posts: 3211
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:47 pm

Jetty wrote:
KLM noted several issues, including a loose seat, missing or wrongly installed cotter pins, nuts not fully tightened, an unsecured fuel line clamp and several unspecified missing parts.

“Who looks at quality in this facility,” KLM asked, adding the airline “is worried for the next deliveries.”
:wideeyed:


KLM's complaints were about their first 787-10, assembled at the SC factory, all previous KLM 787-9 and all other KLM Boeings were assembled in Washington (Everett/Renton)
Sadly no 787-10's are built in Everett.
Last edited by 747classic on Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24300
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:50 pm

smartplane wrote:
Some minor defects, at Airbus and Boeing, are to be expected, just as happens when your car dealer performs a pre-delivery inspection.

Acceptance is a very specialised process, which may involve representatives from the airline and lessor and / or lead financier. They are looking for faults, issues and damage.

If these airlines are advising they are finding more faults than in previous deliveries, and / or more faults than in an equivalent Airbus product, that does highlight production / testing issues.

The startling thing is the airlines are not just finding faults, they are calling out Boeing's cost cutting as the root cause, with reports of excess delegation mixed in too.

Example 1:

American Airlines complained of problems with a Boeing program that lets mechanics inspect about 90 percent of their own work, eliminating a second quality control review in order to speed production.

Example 2:

Singapore Airlines, the launch customer for the 787-10, said problems delayed an April delivery, including missing pieces and a scratched flight deck window that had to be replaced. “It doesn’t help that resources were stretched, resulting in slow rectification of these issues,” Singapore Airlines stated.

I'm surprised Boeing's many critics aren't pouncing on this one.

PS: The original story is at https://www.postandcourier.com/business ... d055e.html
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
pdp
Posts: 245
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:14 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:52 pm

I know of one European 737 operator who has far more problems with their new 738s than they do with their 20 year old ones. The mechanic I know reckons they've been built down to a price and are nowhere near the quality of their older fleet.
 
Insertnamehere
Posts: 316
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:44 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:53 pm

It seems to me a lot of people are apologists for Boeing.
Yes, issues happen but passing them off as a non-issues or industry common is ignorant at best. Something is structurally wrong in Boeing as we don't have quality complaints coming out in regards to Airbus and yes this can be due to the incredible spotlight Boeing is under after their mishandling of the 737MAX but an airline as much of a repeat customer of Boeing aircraft as KLM talking about issues really shines a light on the issues in the workflows and relations between their departments Boeing has.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24300
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:58 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
And I'm sure customers from every other manufacturer never complained about those aircraft.

Our new A321 production line thread has:

Amiga500 wrote:
Might as well fire this in here:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-460069/

Willie Walsh wrote:
He says IAG is "very disappointed" with Airbus's delivery performance and brands the output of the European airframer's Hamburg site – where A321s are assembled – as "very poor".
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:00 pm

B777LRF wrote:
In the late 90s, when switching from the Classic to the NG, Boeing encountered serious production issues. When they started producing the 787 in Charleston, the quality was so inferior to Seattle products some customers refused taking aircraft produced in Charleston. When Boeing started producing the KC-46 in numbers, the USAF cried foul and refused to accept deliveries due to the unsatisfactory quality of the finished product.

Poor quality is, sadly, a theme that raises it's ugly head around Boeing products on an almost predictable schedule. Using all your available cash to buy back stocks and pay dividends is hardly any reassurance they've learned a lesson nor, indeed, that they're willing to throw money at the problem to solve the issues. Boeing is all about cost cutting, stock buybacks and paying dividend, because that raises the stock prices and that's how their senior management is getting rich. It's incredibly short sighted, but what else to expect from a company seemingly unable to look further than the next quarterly?



You hit the nail on the head with that post!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 11776
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:06 pm

This seems to be another piece of circumstantial evidence that there is something wrong with the quality control of Boeing. We had employees of the SC plant say this, we had the Air Force refusing the KC-46's because of quality issue's, we had the B737MAX issue's etc.

We talked about the Boeing safety culture a few months back: Something wrong with Boeing's safety culture?. This is another sign that Boeing should live up to its reputation as a builder of good reliable aircraft, worth spending 100's of millions on.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Lrockeagle
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:40 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:09 pm

So far this year I’ve been on: a king air 200, Lear 60, 737s, A320s, 175s, crj200/700/900s, -145s, A330, 4 787s, md80/88s. 787s were the nicest. Took my sis to Europe on 330 and came back on 787 and she gushed over how much nicer the 787 was.
Lrockeagle
15 years ago

I got $20 says AA takes their 787's with GE powerplants. Just a hunch. Any takers?
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1740
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:35 pm

747classic wrote:
Jetty wrote:
KLM noted several issues, including a loose seat, missing or wrongly installed cotter pins, nuts not fully tightened, an unsecured fuel line clamp and several unspecified missing parts.

“Who looks at quality in this facility,” KLM asked, adding the airline “is worried for the next deliveries.”
:wideeyed:


KLM's complaints were about their first 787-10, assembled at the SC factory, all previous KLM 787-9 and all other KLM Boeings were assembled in Washington (Everett/Renton)
Sadly no 787-10's are built in Everett.

And who's factory is that? Boeing's...
Regardless the root cause of the quality issue at the Charleston factory, it's still Boeing's responsibility to bring it up to standard.
 
TeddyTony
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:03 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:44 pm

Oh God! I hope we don't loose reliability in Airplanes now. I don't know if the McDonnell Douglas corporate culture is finally showing its true colors but Boeing really needs to turn this around. The South Carolina plant is a mess ever since the documentary came out on shoddy business practices and discontent amongst the employees. Complaints from the airlines is definitely and added blow. I think Lockheed Martin needs to join the Commercial Aviation industry again!
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:40 pm

Teddy, it's so easy to blame this on MD, when of course they can't defend them selves as they are not around to do so. Boeing has prior experience with MD and Flight Safety and it's common to hear old school Boeing employees blame one or the other for current conditions. I would suggest the problem lies at the feet of he current management team regardless of past performances, or lack thereof.

Some of the Boeing personnel who set the MAX debacle in motion have long since retired and they cannot be held accountable anymore. Unfortunately !
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24300
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:27 pm

TeddyTony wrote:
Oh God! I hope we don't loose reliability in Airplanes now. I don't know if the McDonnell Douglas corporate culture is finally showing its true colors but Boeing really needs to turn this around.

From what we read here and in the media, McNearney brought the GE culture of relentless focus on costs to Boeing.

As above we see that management put in changes to allow the workers to sign off on 90% of their own work to save money on inspectors.

It should be no surprise that quality drops off after such a change.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Redsand187
Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:47 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:04 pm

pdp wrote:
The mechanic I know reckons they've been built down to a price and are nowhere near the quality of their older fleet.

I dealt with a handful of director-level supply chain people at Boeing last fall. It was clear that their strategy is to cut costs as much as possible so that they can afford to lower the cost of the aircraft to gain market share. Price is their number one concern, not quality. It is all about outselling Airbus.

I recall one telling me of them personally going to India or maybe it was Bangladesh where they were building a software development office. They said the construction workers were barefoot hand carrying bricks like something from National Geographic. I highly doubt Boeing is there for the talent....
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 4123
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:17 pm

Revelation wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
And I'm sure customers from every other manufacturer never complained about those aircraft.

Our new A321 production line thread has:
Amiga500 wrote:
Might as well fire this in here:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-460069/
Willie Walsh wrote:
He says IAG is "very disappointed" with Airbus's delivery performance and brands the output of the European airframer's Hamburg site – where A321s are assembled – as "very poor".

Was WW very "disappointed" about poor quality, or poor performance as in not meeting promised delivery dates?
Reading the article, it would seem the latter; I don't think I read anyting there about poor quality.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4975
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:32 pm

Ellofiend wrote:
Pontius wrote:
I’ve had the privilege of participating in the delivery of an airliner. No perceptible discrepancies are tolerated. It just doesn’t happen. If something is wrong it is either fixed, or compensated for, but usually fixed. Multiple people spend multiple days ensuring that it’s a good machine. Either it’s perfect or the papers aren’t signed. This allegation befuddles me.


Ditto, if anyone has watched the B747-400 delivery to British Airways, even the smallest of things are addressed. If there is anything wrong then the aircraft should not have been accepted!? If the customers have these high expectations then they should simply refuse the aircraft until the problems are fixed, that is what the airline representative inspectors are for are they not? The airline has inspected the aircraft beforehand and yet people are saying that brand new aircraft have problems with them, surely that is not the fault of the manufacturer for delivering an aircraft with surface faults!? The manufacturers I would assume do preliminary checks to make sure the vital components are working and the test-flights and inspections should seek out and remove any surface deep problems that may be present if the carriers really do harbour their "high-quality standards" then the aircraft should be left at the plant until the problems are rectified, unless of course, the airline has been overly ambitious with their ETS or the manufacturer has overrun the delivery deadline in which case the manufacturer is indeed at fault but there has not been any mention of either so I would assume this is lousy reporting or the airlines are blaming the manufacturers for their own slap-happiness.
P.S. Sounds like another cry for higher wages and more employee benefits

Some Airlines do not even accomplish pre delivery inspections. Some fly them directly from SEA and put them on the line where al the amenities are installed, before the revenue flight. Is it right? It depends on who you ask.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4419
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:29 pm

GoSharks wrote:
You won't find a single manufacturer of anything that doesn't receive poor quality complaints from customers. None of this really means anything without a baseline reference from the entire industry.


FWIW- Boeing hasn't exactly been a shining star lately. I mean, is the MAX a possible baseline we can use as a reference? I am also wondering how this doesn't really mean anything? It is obvious it's not just a single customer that is unhappy with shoddy and half hazard products being delivered.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15098
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:39 pm

To be fair and balanced these cabin finish issues are impacting all OEMs, Boeing and Airbus are the biggest OEMs and see more customer complaints.

In reality there is a limited number of cabin furnishings suppliers, all of them are are struggling to meet the demand. When products are rushed, quality decreases.

What most people see and feel in a cabin is not made by the OEM, however it reflects poorly on the OEMs and airlines as that is basis for the customers main impression on the hard product.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
SEU
Posts: 278
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:21 pm

Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:43 pm

Lrockeagle wrote:
So far this year I’ve been on: a king air 200, Lear 60, 737s, A320s, 175s, crj200/700/900s, -145s, A330, 4 787s, md80/88s. 787s were the nicest. Took my sis to Europe on 330 and came back on 787 and she gushed over how much nicer the 787 was.


Please....

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos