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caljn
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:14 pm

SEU wrote:
Lrockeagle wrote:
So far this year I’ve been on: a king air 200, Lear 60, 737s, A320s, 175s, crj200/700/900s, -145s, A330, 4 787s, md80/88s. 787s were the nicest. Took my sis to Europe on 330 and came back on 787 and she gushed over how much nicer the 787 was.


Please....


Please? Just as valid as all the other "anecdotal" evidence of this thread.
My anecdote, while the 787-9 is my current favorite aircraft, the 787-10 does "feel" different than flying on other Boeing models, though I ascribe it to lightweight fixturing keeping the weight down. It lacks the general sturdy ambience of the 757 or 777 that reek of confidence in flight. The -10 is more like an A320, complete with a plastic-y feel and vibrating overheads.
 
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:33 pm

PW100 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
And I'm sure customers from every other manufacturer never complained about those aircraft.

Our new A321 production line thread has:
Amiga500 wrote:

Was WW very "disappointed" about poor quality, or poor performance as in not meeting promised delivery dates?
Reading the article, it would seem the latter; I don't think I read anyting there about poor quality.


Yeah Walshie isn't whining about the quality, but the delivery schedules. Now, even though it sucks, it's a fairly common issue, and one we see with most types. Admittedly Airbus has dropped the ball. Unlike this though, the production issues at Boeing are not a common sight and whoever defends them basically invalidates their point immediately. Finding loose bolts, tools left inside the frames, cracked cockpit windows and improperly attached fuel lines? No that is not common. Well it is for Boeing apparently. I don't know where they went wrong, but they're losing a lot of rep quickly. Yes most airlines still won't mind but it should be a major concern. To say that other manufacturers have similar issues on a regular basis is ridiculous at best.
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:42 pm

IPFreely wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
I flew on a brand new 787 on China Southern, and the seat recline was broken. Also, I was not happy with a lot of the panels that were loose. Overall, it felt lower quality compared to older planes.


Well, this seals it.


For sure...CASE CLOSED!! :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
 
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:12 am

See this is the culture they’ve built at that company. I remember the document thing about the 737NG and it’s production issues where there were a couple of assembly line employees that came out as whistle blowers and the stuff they said was a bit alarming and some of it fits in here. Then there was the one on the Charleston facility which really was much the same. Non confirming parts were “fixed” so that they could fit which usually involved drilling new holes in parts or hammering them until the fit. They brought this to the attention of the management that was in charge of the line and they were told that they were not to do anything about this and never to bring it up because if they were to follow the correct procedure to deal with non conformities the production rate would decrease which was absolutely not acceptable and this is where I’ve seen a reoccurring theme. Boeing seems desperate to keep production up at any cost while keeping monetary costs low and when you run a business like that, quality has to suffer. Boeing needs a major restructure from top to bottom and a complete 180 in corporate culture otherwise I think they don’t deserve to be considered a world renown reputable manufacturer anymore and should be in the ranks of a company like Sukhoi or COMAC.
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:35 am

TC957 wrote:
Good job QR aren't taking new Boeing deliveries currently otherwise Al Baker will implode with rage and criticisms. Boeing better start doing better quality control before QR get their 789's.

There was a rumor that QR refused to take 787s from the SC factory and got all their frames from Everett.
 
Jetty
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:45 am

In case there was any doubt: all the airlines mentioned confirmed the harsh words were theirs, to then down-play it for PR purposes of course.

www.businessinsider.nl/boeing-787-dream ... =true&r=US
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:59 am

This is just classic corporate America. Have no respect for anything except the dollar leads to having a bad end product every time and that is something that is not taught when you are getting an MBA.

I could name 10 US companies that have garbage products simply because of outsourcing and shoddy overall work, it seems as though Boeing is falling down the same path.

(Anecdotally, the tour guide on the tour of the Everett plant openly bragged about automating workers out of jobs and sending jobs to Charleston so I have no sympathy for anyone in the C Suite at Boeing)
Last edited by SierraPacific on Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:18 am

TC957 wrote:
Good job QR aren't taking new Boeing deliveries currently otherwise Al Baker will implode with rage and criticisms. Boeing better start doing better quality control before QR get their 789's.


QR actually took delivery of a 777F only last week and their first 789 is currently in final assembly and should roll out next week with another 2 entering final assembly over the next month
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:09 am

Redsand187 wrote:
I recall one telling me of them personally going to India or maybe it was Bangladesh where they were building a software development office. They said the construction workers were barefoot hand carrying bricks like something from National Geographic. I highly doubt Boeing is there for the talent....

Do you speak of the talent of the construction workers or of the talent of software engineers?
Any news in which country the faulty MAX software was written?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
77H
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:10 am

Have NH, JL or UA made any comments about 78 build quality issues ? Those 3 airlines have the largest 78 fleets with NH and UA operating all 3 variants. AA being 4th and noted as a complainant.

77H
 
Scotron12
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:39 am

So what is the reason? Maybe coz Boeing spent a staggering $43Billion on share buybacks since 2013!

Seems more focus is on the money as opposed to the product.
 
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:13 pm

"Etihad, EVA Air and Qatar were all said to be very unhappy, Qatar so much so it refused to accept deliveries from the Charleston plant, after extensive external component damage was found to be caused by incompetent workers."

https://aviationnews.online/2019/08/05/ ... ead-again/
 
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:22 pm

While I am not in the aviation business at all in any way— cost cutting and quarterly results calls are effecting every single publicly traded company.
I had one job at one agency for 24 years. I started at age 30 and the company was private. The #1 thing that mattered the MOST BY FAR was quality. My agency was owned by the last PRIVATE global advertising and communications giant. When the top brass came in to do their Bi-annual proctology examination on us, it was a 2 day affair. Day 1 was dedicated to showing them the work, our best projects, our latest process innovation, the biggest ideas that were break through for our clients. It was a sweaty palms day as you had to impress the hell out of them, blow them away. Day 2 was a closed door meeting with a handful of senior management to review numbers. (It was still a business after all, and growth and margins were important)
Then, as the last private advertising and communications global left standing, all of the competition was bought by publicly traded holding companies, we were finally bought. Within just a few months EVERYTHING CHANGED, nobody cared about the work, EVERYTHING was about money. We were all served giant tumblers of Kool-Aid and the first question from top brass changed from “what’s the most fabulous thing you’ve done lately?” To “How much money did you make, how much did you grow and what non essential expenses have been cut?” - Not one question about the work, and if you did share something great they’d say “how much did we get paid for that?”
Our lives were measured in 3 month intervals and when I left at 54, I had a far bigger title but a mere fraction of the power to make a decision than when I was 30.
The greed was both astonishing and nauseating. I like money just like everyone else, but there is a point when money does buy unhappiness!
On her way out, Indra Nooyi, CEO PepsiCo, said (paraphrasing) “quarterly calls force short term thinking and kills long term innovation, bi annual calls should be enough”
I think if Boeing or Airbus sell widgets that cost over $100 million a unit, every customer is entitled to complain even if 1 overhead reading light is missing a bulb. And for any company under the pressure from shareholders, and you’re intoxicated by the Kool-Aid, or your own stock comp, and so is your customer, yeah it will show up somehow. Like no more comb in a Polaris amenity kit, and a beautiful, sculpted and lit branded bulkhead disappears and replaced by plain wall paper.

That said, I’ve been on the 787-8/9/10 many, many times and I’m someone who notices EVERYTHING, and I have only ever sat or stood and looked and touched almost everything and I was always blown away by how beautiful she is inside. Nothing looks or feels “cheap” or “cheesy”- if a 787 has obvious cost cutting components, it’s not visible to the passengers. If my seat is busted somehow, that’s the airline.

It wasn’t always this bad, but it seems like after the Great Recession of 2006, all wiggle room to invest for the long term or “paying more” for the “best” of something or someone is almost gone!
Apologies if I come off as very cynical!
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Revelation
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:39 pm

VC10er wrote:
Then, as the last private advertising and communications global left standing, all of the competition was bought by publicly traded holding companies, we were finally bought. Within just a few months EVERYTHING CHANGED, nobody cared about the work, EVERYTHING was about money. We were all served giant tumblers of Kool-Aid and the first question from top brass changed from “what’s the most fabulous thing you’ve done lately?” To “How much money did you make, how much did you grow and what non essential expenses have been cut?” - Not one question about the work, and if you did share something great they’d say “how much did we get paid for that?”
Our lives were measured in 3 month intervals and when I left at 54, I had a far bigger title but a mere fraction of the power to make a decision than when I was 30.
The greed was both astonishing and nauseating. I like money just like everyone else, but there is a point when money does buy unhappiness!
....
Apologies if I come off as very cynical!

I'm there as well, in terms of cynicism. I'm glad I'm (much?) closer to the end of my career rather than the beginning, so I don't have to be a part of the race to the bottom much longer.

One thing I keep noticing is the sack of coffee I buy now has less coffee in it. Pretty simple thing to compare the old empty bag to the new less full one and see they just cut out 12% of the contents without lowering the price by 12%. See the same thing in newer smaller containers for things like sports drinks and spaghetti sauce. Even one brand of bread I've been purchasing for two decades or more now has two fewer slices of bread. New smaller container, same high price. Somehow they think we don't notice their blatant dishonesty. They could be honest and just charge more because they think their product is worth it, but instead they chose the dishonest approach. So much short term thinking!

The thing is, how do things change?

In the US, the odd thing is the only real hope is that greedy lawyers sue the begeezus out of greedy corporations to the point where they feel the pain.

Clearly Congress is bought and paid for and is also ideologically deadlocked, so there's no hope of it resolving anything.
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Scotron12
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:50 pm

Revelation wrote:
VC10er wrote:
Then, as the last private advertising and communications global left standing, all of the competition was bought by publicly traded holding companies, we were finally bought. Within just a few months EVERYTHING CHANGED, nobody cared about the work, EVERYTHING was about money. We were all served giant tumblers of Kool-Aid and the first question from top brass changed from “what’s the most fabulous thing you’ve done lately?” To “How much money did you make, how much did you grow and what non essential expenses have been cut?” - Not one question about the work, and if you did share something great they’d say “how much did we get paid for that?”
Our lives were measured in 3 month intervals and when I left at 54, I had a far bigger title but a mere fraction of the power to make a decision than when I was 30.
The greed was both astonishing and nauseating. I like money just like everyone else, but there is a point when money does buy unhappiness!
....
Apologies if I come off as very cynical!

I'm there as well, in terms of cynicism. I'm glad I'm (much?) closer to the end of my career rather than the beginning, so I don't have to be a part of the race to the bottom much longer.

One thing I keep noticing is the sack of coffee I buy now has less coffee in it. Pretty simple thing to compare the old empty bag to the new less full one and see they just cut out 12% of the contents without lowering the price by 12%. See the same thing in newer smaller containers for things like sports drinks and spaghetti sauce. Even one brand of bread I've been purchasing for two decades or more now has two fewer slices of bread. New smaller container, same high price. Somehow they think we don't notice their blatant dishonesty. They could be honest and just charge more because they think their product is worth it, but instead they chose the dishonest approach. So much short term thinking!

The thing is, how do things change?

In the US, the odd thing is the only real hope is that greedy lawyers sue the begeezus out of greedy corporations to the point where they feel the pain.

Clearly Congress is bought and paid for and is also ideologically deadlocked, so there's no hope of it resolving anything.


Very well said both of you. Seems money is king and the product and quality take a backseat.

As long as they are able to stuff themselves with stock options until the cows come home, that is the way it will remain.
 
Redsand187
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:47 pm

Sokes wrote:
Redsand187 wrote:
I recall one telling me of them personally going to India or maybe it was Bangladesh where they were building a software development office. They said the construction workers were barefoot hand carrying bricks like something from National Geographic. I highly doubt Boeing is there for the talent....

Do you speak of the talent of the construction workers or of the talent of software engineers?
Any news in which country the faulty MAX software was written?

In my mind, if there is not a developed infrastructure for construction, I doubt there are high-quality software and electrical engineers in abundance. More likely, there is an abundance of people willing to work for next to nothing and have very basic skills.
 
Sokes
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:37 am

Redsand187 wrote:
In my mind, if there is not a developed infrastructure for construction, I doubt there are high-quality software and electrical engineers in abundance. More likely, there is an abundance of people willing to work for next to nothing and have very basic skills.

Please skip this post if you are not interested in developing countries.

I want to apologize. From your earlier post you seemed prejudiced to me, therefore my sarcastic reply. However your reply is very mature. You seem to be a nice guy. I made a mistake in being so sarcastic.

I live in India and even I’m confused as to the qualification of the workforce. Normally schooling is a state, not central, responsibility. My son goes to a private school. It’s where the wealthy people send their children. The curriculum is given by the central government. I found very pathetic mistakes in my son’s fourth standard maths book. That seems to contradict with the fact that India has successfully completed a Mars mission. And why doesn’t India just copy Western school books for English medium schools?
To understand this one has to read the fabulous book "Why nations fail" by Daron Acemoglu and James Robinson. One of their many examples is Venice. Venice had a type of contract where a captain and the person who financed a voyage shared the profit. Top tax payers would form a type of parliament. Tax filings of the time still exist. They show that with each generation the names of the top taxpayers changed.
The parliament decided that future parliaments will consist only of present members or their descendants. It didn’t take long till captains were not allowed to have profit sharing agreements. They became employees.
Venice had changed from an open to a closed society. Within 100 years population decreased to a fraction and Venice disappeared from the map as a power.

Open societies create an enormous amount of wealth. But in open societies one isn’t on top for long. Today people speak of Elon Musk, not of Bill Gates. Not so in India. In “Satyagraha in South Africa” Gandhi wrote that a check from Tata just arrived in Time. Gandhi left South Africa more than 100 years ago, but one doesn’t even need to be Indian to know the name Tata.
Tata took over Jaguar. Why are they less successful in the West than in India?
In India just like in the West politicians get a lot of money from the rich. I believe it is in the interest of the super rich in India that engineers are smart enough to copy a car or a fridge, but not smart enough so that some Elon Musks may chase them from their top positions. How to achieve that?

One can’t just open a school like a capitalist enterprise. There has to be a board with I believe seven members. In India it’s one’s duty to help relatives. So if a board member has a nice who needs a job as teacher, what will happen? Schools need recognition from the government every few years. So if a minister’s nice needs a job as teacher, can the school say no?
In big towns there may be one school where politicians send their children. These schools can be cheap and best. That doesn’t mean good for industrial country standard. Obviously not everybody can get admission.
Teacher’s training is not good enough. Add pathetic school books. In higher education there is a lot of money. Where there is so much money, politicians are usually not far.
Milton Friedman proposed to give educational vouchers to parents, schools should be capitalistic enterprises. While I strongly disagree for developed nations I strongly agree for developing countries.

However an educational system which makes people with an IQ of 110 smart enough to copy a fridge allows people with higher IQ to make themselves smart.
There are 1.300.000.000 Indians. If one assumes the top 3% become very smart against the odds, how many very smart people do you get? A lot of the top skill leaves India. So Boeing in India may have to satisfy themselves with India’s intelligence below the top 1%. These are assumptions. I don’t know real numbers.

Suppose politicians allow foreign IT companies to run their business provided the foreign companies rent office space from them. How does this affect educational reforms?
One can find very smart 35 years old with only a few years education. In 1991 India had a balance of payment crisis. The IMF forced India to open the economy and allow foreign direct investment. Since then more and more jobs in the private sector became available. Earlier good jobs were mostly in government owned enterprises. One needed an influential uncle and not merit to get such jobs. Why to go to school? This is the first generation where the majority of children remain in school till eight, if not tenth standard. People are getting smarter. Schooling as well as governance will improve.

My barber’s son just finished his studies as software engineer. He says companies want experienced labour. Which probably means a degree is no proof of qualification. If nobody takes him he intends to open his own barber shop. I believe to remember that India has more than a million unemployed engineers. Most of them wouldn’t qualify as engineers in an industrial country. But how many % of them will be better than industrial country average?

If politics interferes, there can be no private initiative/ jobs. In most areas of India one can’t make business. Excess labour leads to cheap salaries which leads to less technology employed. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the technology is not available. About scale in infrastructure for construction:
https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... g-5526168/

I think you got a rough idea now why there are contradicting impressions. It took me years to look through them. There is no way for a Westerner not to get them wrong.
Greetings,
Sokes
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
WIederling
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:20 am

Revelation wrote:
In the US, the odd thing is the only real hope is that greedy lawyers sue the begeezus out of greedy corporations to the point where they feel the pain.


Afaics : the effect is counter to what you describe.

The danger of getting "siphoned off" by greedy lawyers effects even more greediness in the collection phase
as you need to be prepared for the haircut ..
Another issue is that the legal system is damaged, deformed.
Successful litigation is not in any proportional way linked to wrong doing.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Lootess
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:25 am

trex8 wrote:
Pontius wrote:
I’ve had the privilege of participating in the delivery of an airliner. No perceptible discrepancies are tolerated. It just doesn’t happen. If something is wrong it is either fixed, or compensated for, but usually fixed. Multiple people spend multiple days ensuring that it’s a good machine. Either it’s perfect or the papers aren’t signed. This allegation befuddles me.

Do all airlines do "white glove" inspections or is it optional for customers?


Excellent read about Delta's experience at Airbus Hamburg, Delta A321 inspection: Top to bottom, nose to tail, winglet to winglet
https://news.delta.com/a321-inspection-top-bottom-nose-tail-winglet-winglet
 
aaexecplat
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:58 am

Revelation wrote:
VC10er wrote:
Then, as the last private advertising and communications global left standing, all of the competition was bought by publicly traded holding companies, we were finally bought. Within just a few months EVERYTHING CHANGED, nobody cared about the work, EVERYTHING was about money. We were all served giant tumblers of Kool-Aid and the first question from top brass changed from “what’s the most fabulous thing you’ve done lately?” To “How much money did you make, how much did you grow and what non essential expenses have been cut?” - Not one question about the work, and if you did share something great they’d say “how much did we get paid for that?”
Our lives were measured in 3 month intervals and when I left at 54, I had a far bigger title but a mere fraction of the power to make a decision than when I was 30.
The greed was both astonishing and nauseating. I like money just like everyone else, but there is a point when money does buy unhappiness!
....
Apologies if I come off as very cynical!

I'm there as well, in terms of cynicism. I'm glad I'm (much?) closer to the end of my career rather than the beginning, so I don't have to be a part of the race to the bottom much longer.

One thing I keep noticing is the sack of coffee I buy now has less coffee in it. Pretty simple thing to compare the old empty bag to the new less full one and see they just cut out 12% of the contents without lowering the price by 12%. See the same thing in newer smaller containers for things like sports drinks and spaghetti sauce. Even one brand of bread I've been purchasing for two decades or more now has two fewer slices of bread. New smaller container, same high price. Somehow they think we don't notice their blatant dishonesty. They could be honest and just charge more because they think their product is worth it, but instead they chose the dishonest approach. So much short term thinking!

The thing is, how do things change?

In the US, the odd thing is the only real hope is that greedy lawyers sue the begeezus out of greedy corporations to the point where they feel the pain.

Clearly Congress is bought and paid for and is also ideologically deadlocked, so there's no hope of it resolving anything.


Great posts from both of you, VC10 and Revelation (VC10...it sounds like you and I have career parallels). I agree with the sentiment that publicly traded entities are being strangled by quarterly assessments from analysts. It kills innovation and quality because that requires money and time, neither of which analysts allow them to use in abundance.

I also agree that large corporations have become unethical and dishonest. That is as true for one industry as another. A massive influx of ambitious MBAs that are simultaneously short on business experience (in the trenches) and long on ego over the last two decades has made this problem exponentially worse.

The only solution I see is for those of us who do not like this status quo to take our money where our mouths are. That means buying artisan or small company made products, working with smaller service providers. This can be very difficult to impossible in some industries where the large players (or in some cases player) have bought virtually all competition. Luxotica is a good example of this consolidation. I hire guys like VC10 in my line of work and as a CMO, I have seen the advertising industry change almost to the point of being unrecognizable. VC10 and I can lament via DM, but I can confirm his post's premise.

Again...we can do some things to counteract the cycle, but when it comes to airplanes, a duopoly it is and we gave little to no choice.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:48 am

aaexecplat wrote:
a duopoly it is and we gave little to no choice


And why is that? It's come down to the complexity of the product and the nature of an organization that can put it all together at a reasonable price.

Why haven't the Japanese been able to put something together to compete? Why are we not seeing Russian planes flying the friendly sky's? And what about the current Chinese effort?

We complain about quality of Boeing or Airbus planes. But we can't seem to see that even with all these issues, the two companies seem to be providing us with what we want. Cheap air travel.

I mean, when you try something new, you'll always have issues. Just look at Tesla. I love my model 3, but there are issues that may not exists in a more mature model.

With respect to Bangalore and India, I was there when Boeing first put business there. It was a necessity in order to sell product there. And yes, the brand new factory did not look as sharp and polished as one we see in the States. And the landscaping crew wore saris. And yes, the learning curve was slow and we had to hold their hands each step of the way.

Fast forward to the present . . . India is still building parts for us (for a Boeing program that does not get much press because its going much more smoothly) they are building AH-64 fuselages, and F-18 gun doors among other things. And yes there are quality issues, but the process must go forward. There is always risk with doing something new or different. But, it must be the way of the future as doing the same thing as before will only leave you extinct.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Pyrex
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:46 am

Sigh... Another hit piece on the Charleston facility. Why do I get a sense all of these "quality problems" will somehow immediately get fixed if the employees there agree to give up a portion of their monthly earnings to a crime syndicate? Boring should really considering adding the unions for slander, which is all that this organized campaign of hit pieces amounts to.

What is somewhat depressing to see, though, is the usual a.net ignorance about all things economy related, from using the new Boogeyman du jour (share buybacks) as if it somehow was at all fundamentally different from a share buyback, which companies of all types have been paying since times immemorial, to even going so far as attacking the greatest wealth creation mechanism ever devised by mankind, public equity markets. Seems like a lot of people here claim to love aviation but hate the economic system that allows for it's development.
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:18 pm

Corporation capture by management along with quarterly reports pushed by huge financial centers, and exacerbated by regulatory capture has not existed from time immemorial. Things like corporations have existed for a long time. But nothing so big, so global, and so politically powerful. Free market fundamentalists assert all sorts of garbage - but the reality is that freedom disappears, markets become controlled, and all that remains is a fake religious fundamentalism. And the logical endpoint of all of this is that one powerful nation now asserts the right to determine not only how it trades, but also how other countries trade with each other.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Redsand187
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:29 pm

Sokes wrote:
Redsand187 wrote:
In my mind, if there is not a developed infrastructure for construction, I doubt there are high-quality software and electrical engineers in abundance. More likely, there is an abundance of people willing to work for next to nothing and have very basic skills.

Please skip this post if you are not interested in developing countries.

I want to apologize. From your earlier post you seemed prejudiced to me, therefore my sarcastic reply. However your reply is very mature. You seem to be a nice guy. I made a mistake in being so sarcastic.

I live in India and even I’m confused as to the qualification of the workforce. Normally schooling is a state, not central, responsibility. My son goes to a private school. It’s where the wealthy people send their children. The curriculum is given by the central government. I found very pathetic mistakes in my son’s fourth standard maths book. That seems to contradict with the fact that India has successfully completed a Mars mission. And why doesn’t India just copy Western school books for English medium schools?
To understand this one has to read the fabulous book "Why nations fail" by Daron Acemoglu and James Robinson. One of their many examples is Venice. Venice had a type of contract where a captain and the person who financed a voyage shared the profit. Top tax payers would form a type of parliament. Tax filings of the time still exist. They show that with each generation the names of the top taxpayers changed.
The parliament decided that future parliaments will consist only of present members or their descendants. It didn’t take long till captains were not allowed to have profit sharing agreements. They became employees.
Venice had changed from an open to a closed society. Within 100 years population decreased to a fraction and Venice disappeared from the map as a power.

Open societies create an enormous amount of wealth. But in open societies one isn’t on top for long. Today people speak of Elon Musk, not of Bill Gates. Not so in India. In “Satyagraha in South Africa” Gandhi wrote that a check from Tata just arrived in Time. Gandhi left South Africa more than 100 years ago, but one doesn’t even need to be Indian to know the name Tata.
Tata took over Jaguar. Why are they less successful in the West than in India?
In India just like in the West politicians get a lot of money from the rich. I believe it is in the interest of the super rich in India that engineers are smart enough to copy a car or a fridge, but not smart enough so that some Elon Musks may chase them from their top positions. How to achieve that?

One can’t just open a school like a capitalist enterprise. There has to be a board with I believe seven members. In India it’s one’s duty to help relatives. So if a board member has a nice who needs a job as teacher, what will happen? Schools need recognition from the government every few years. So if a minister’s nice needs a job as teacher, can the school say no?
In big towns there may be one school where politicians send their children. These schools can be cheap and best. That doesn’t mean good for industrial country standard. Obviously not everybody can get admission.
Teacher’s training is not good enough. Add pathetic school books. In higher education there is a lot of money. Where there is so much money, politicians are usually not far.
Milton Friedman proposed to give educational vouchers to parents, schools should be capitalistic enterprises. While I strongly disagree for developed nations I strongly agree for developing countries.

However an educational system which makes people with an IQ of 110 smart enough to copy a fridge allows people with higher IQ to make themselves smart.
There are 1.300.000.000 Indians. If one assumes the top 3% become very smart against the odds, how many very smart people do you get? A lot of the top skill leaves India. So Boeing in India may have to satisfy themselves with India’s intelligence below the top 1%. These are assumptions. I don’t know real numbers.

Suppose politicians allow foreign IT companies to run their business provided the foreign companies rent office space from them. How does this affect educational reforms?
One can find very smart 35 years old with only a few years education. In 1991 India had a balance of payment crisis. The IMF forced India to open the economy and allow foreign direct investment. Since then more and more jobs in the private sector became available. Earlier good jobs were mostly in government owned enterprises. One needed an influential uncle and not merit to get such jobs. Why to go to school? This is the first generation where the majority of children remain in school till eight, if not tenth standard. People are getting smarter. Schooling as well as governance will improve.

My barber’s son just finished his studies as software engineer. He says companies want experienced labour. Which probably means a degree is no proof of qualification. If nobody takes him he intends to open his own barber shop. I believe to remember that India has more than a million unemployed engineers. Most of them wouldn’t qualify as engineers in an industrial country. But how many % of them will be better than industrial country average?

If politics interferes, there can be no private initiative/ jobs. In most areas of India one can’t make business. Excess labour leads to cheap salaries which leads to less technology employed. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the technology is not available. About scale in infrastructure for construction:
https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... g-5526168/

I think you got a rough idea now why there are contradicting impressions. It took me years to look through them. There is no way for a Westerner not to get them wrong.
Greetings,
Sokes

That's a very thoughtful response. I'll add Why Nation's Fail to my reading list.

It is my understanding that there is a lot of trained people in India, but the quality to which they have been trained is very hard to verify and they typically lack experience. That seems to go along with what you are saying. It's no real fault of the Indian people, they are doing the best they can but aren't afforded the opportunities as many Western nations. Their opportunities come in the form of Western companies handing off low priority busywork without a lot of guidance. So you have inexperience workers with unknown quality of education trying to complete tasks with direction from their bosses to do it as quickly and cheaply as possible. It's a recipe for disaster.

In my experience, Boeing management is very shortsighted and doesn't want to put the necessary resources into projects if there is a small chance they can get away with it. Bringing that management style to India isn't going to do them any favors. If they invested the same amount of money it would cost to do the same work in the USA and allowed some time to develop employees in India, they'd be better off. But that won't help today's bottom-line. Boeing manages on the perceived opportunity, not reality. So it's really a recipe for another disaster.
 
Pyrex
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:25 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Corporation capture by management along with quarterly reports pushed by huge financial centers, and exacerbated by regulatory capture has not existed from time immemorial. Things like corporations have existed for a long time. But nothing so big, so global, and so politically powerful. Free market fundamentalists assert all sorts of garbage - but the reality is that freedom disappears, markets become controlled, and all that remains is a fake religious fundamentalism. And the logical endpoint of all of this is that one powerful nation now asserts the right to determine not only how it trades, but also how other countries trade with each other.


You either have public equity markets, where everyone can buy a share of a company and participate in its wealth creation, or you have private equity markets, where the barriers to entry are much greater (you need to be able to come up with enough capital to open the company yourself). Countries with low development of public equity markets tend to concentrate most of the wealth in a few family-owned conglomerates (building a business in one area can provide provides enough capital to build/buy a business in another, and so on, and so forth). I know where my preferences lie.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
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bikerthai
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:30 pm

Redsand187 wrote:
Bringing that management style to India isn't going to do them any favors. If they invested the same amount of money it would cost to do the same work in the USA and allowed some time to develop employees in India, they'd be better off. But that won't help today's bottom-line.


You are probably correct with the "management style" observation. Each country has it's own culture and ways of doing business. What Boeing is bringing to India is the technical working processes involved in building aerospace structures. The managment style will have to evolve as thing progress. However, this is the kind of development that you can not let progress at it's own pace. You have to push the pace to your schedule or it will never get done.

Current Boeing domestic investments seem to focus on automation, and training the highly skilled worker to manage those expensive automated machines. You do not want to invest money to make an IAM mechanic build a cheaper bracket, you let trained Indian mechanic do so, and let the IAM mechanic focus on that fiber placement machine. One day, that Indian mechanic will be able to run that fiber placement machine, but not yet today.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:47 pm

Costs vs. quality control is a perennial source of tension for every manufacturer, but these kinds of public-facing customer complaints are very unusual when the customers are large businesses. I think Boeing probably needs to correct course a bit.

The Charleston plant has been a source of difficulty since day one. First they didn't import enough veteran staff, then they tried to maintain a staffing level that was too low. Some commenters mention Qatar -- it's worth noting that QR did not accept any Charleston aircraft for a long time after receiving the first batch (all scheduled in the firing order at once). Air India received the first Charleston-built 787 and there are persistent rumors that the aircraft (VT-ANI) is a lemon. I wonder how much of the reluctance to import more knowledgeable people from Washington is because of fears that Charleston might unionize...
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:12 pm

GM was once the world's largest car maker, it had 44% of the US market in 1960 with 87% of US sales coming from the Motown3 as well as American Motors. But their quality was just so-so, cars loved the mechanic back then and they were far simpler. By the 70's both VW and the Japanese companies were making huge inroads in the US market because they did have higher quality.

It was the import invasion that brought the Motown3 to its knees and forced it to greatly improve quality. I have 10 year old cars that can go 10K to 15K miles without any major repairs, usually things like brake pads which only have a defined life.
 
maint123
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:13 am

Sokes wrote:
Redsand187 wrote:
In my mind, if there is not a developed infrastructure for construction, I doubt there are high-quality software and electrical engineers in abundance. More likely, there is an abundance of people willing to work for next to nothing and have very basic skills.

Please skip this post if you are not interested in developing countries.

I want to apologize. From your earlier post you seemed prejudiced to me, therefore my sarcastic reply. However your reply is very mature. You seem to be a nice guy. I made a mistake in being so sarcastic.

I live in India and even I’m confused as to the qualification of the workforce. Normally schooling is a state, not central, responsibility. My son goes to a private school. It’s where the wealthy people send their children. The curriculum is given by the central government. I found very pathetic mistakes in my son’s fourth standard maths book. That seems to contradict with the fact that India has successfully completed a Mars mission. And why doesn’t India just copy Western school books for English medium schools?
To understand this one has to read the fabulous book "Why nations fail" by Daron Acemoglu and James Robinson. One of their many examples is Venice. Venice had a type of contract where a captain and the person who financed a voyage shared the profit. Top tax payers would form a type of parliament. Tax filings of the time still exist. They show that with each generation the names of the top taxpayers changed.
The parliament decided that future parliaments will consist only of present members or their descendants. It didn’t take long till captains were not allowed to have profit sharing agreements. They became employees.
Venice had changed from an open to a closed society. Within 100 years population decreased to a fraction and Venice disappeared from the map as a power.

Open societies create an enormous amount of wealth. But in open societies one isn’t on top for long. Today people speak of Elon Musk, not of Bill Gates. Not so in India. In “Satyagraha in South Africa” Gandhi wrote that a check from Tata just arrived in Time. Gandhi left South Africa more than 100 years ago, but one doesn’t even need to be Indian to know the name Tata.
Tata took over Jaguar. Why are they less successful in the West than in India?
In India just like in the West politicians get a lot of money from the rich. I believe it is in the interest of the super rich in India that engineers are smart enough to copy a car or a fridge, but not smart enough so that some Elon Musks may chase them from their top positions. How to achieve that?

One can’t just open a school like a capitalist enterprise. There has to be a board with I believe seven members. In India it’s one’s duty to help relatives. So if a board member has a nice who needs a job as teacher, what will happen? Schools need recognition from the government every few years. So if a minister’s nice needs a job as teacher, can the school say no?
In big towns there may be one school where politicians send their children. These schools can be cheap and best. That doesn’t mean good for industrial country standard. Obviously not everybody can get admission.
Teacher’s training is not good enough. Add pathetic school books. In higher education there is a lot of money. Where there is so much money, politicians are usually not far.
Milton Friedman proposed to give educational vouchers to parents, schools should be capitalistic enterprises. While I strongly disagree for developed nations I strongly agree for developing countries.

However an educational system which makes people with an IQ of 110 smart enough to copy a fridge allows people with higher IQ to make themselves smart.
There are 1.300.000.000 Indians. If one assumes the top 3% become very smart against the odds, how many very smart people do you get? A lot of the top skill leaves India. So Boeing in India may have to satisfy themselves with India’s intelligence below the top 1%. These are assumptions. I don’t know real numbers.

Suppose politicians allow foreign IT companies to run their business provided the foreign companies rent office space from them. How does this affect educational reforms?
One can find very smart 35 years old with only a few years education. In 1991 India had a balance of payment crisis. The IMF forced India to open the economy and allow foreign direct investment. Since then more and more jobs in the private sector became available. Earlier good jobs were mostly in government owned enterprises. One needed an influential uncle and not merit to get such jobs. Why to go to school? This is the first generation where the majority of children remain in school till eight, if not tenth standard. People are getting smarter. Schooling as well as governance will improve.

My barber’s son just finished his studies as software engineer. He says companies want experienced labour. Which probably means a degree is no proof of qualification. If nobody takes him he intends to open his own barber shop. I believe to remember that India has more than a million unemployed engineers. Most of them wouldn’t qualify as engineers in an industrial country. But how many % of them will be better than industrial country average?

If politics interferes, there can be no private initiative/ jobs. In most areas of India one can’t make business. Excess labour leads to cheap salaries which leads to less technology employed. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the technology is not available. About scale in infrastructure for construction:
https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... g-5526168/

I think you got a rough idea now why there are contradicting impressions. It took me years to look through them. There is no way for a Westerner not to get them wrong.
Greetings,
Sokes

Could you explain that in detail, couldn't get what you meant?
Don't fret about jabs at India, its just knee jerk reactions at high paying jobs getting diverted.
You might be too young to know but in the 50s and 60s, Japanese products were associated with poor quality and rejected by the west. Then come the 80s and the Toyotas and sonys and the American public loved them, and couldn't be fooled by quality related scaremongering, so it became a open fight against foreign manufacturerd cars, etc.
At the moment, India and its software industry has taken a lot of good paying jobs, so it's a easy target. Example, the perpetual software issues with the British Airways being blamed on India, while the outsourcing is to a east European country and probably not even its fault.
 
Newark727
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:59 am

Pyrex wrote:
Sigh... Another hit piece on the Charleston facility. Why do I get a sense all of these "quality problems" will somehow immediately get fixed if the employees there agree to give up a portion of their monthly earnings to a crime syndicate? Boring should really considering adding the unions for slander, which is all that this organized campaign of hit pieces amounts to.

What is somewhat depressing to see, though, is the usual a.net ignorance about all things economy related, from using the new Boogeyman du jour (share buybacks) as if it somehow was at all fundamentally different from a share buyback, which companies of all types have been paying since times immemorial, to even going so far as attacking the greatest wealth creation mechanism ever devised by mankind, public equity markets. Seems like a lot of people here claim to love aviation but hate the economic system that allows for it's development.


Boeing opened up the plant in Charleston to fight the unions. Seems only fair for the unions to fight back, no?

As for your expansive defense of markets - sure, they create wealth. But that's all they do, and that's not all that people need. To simply assume that market forces dictated a certain outcome, and therefore that outcome is correct, is abdicating an enormous amount of responsibility, and quite simply inviting massive abuse. At a certain point, the compromises stop being something that can be dismissed as just "hit pieces," and start hurting people. It doesn't take much looking to find examples.
 
Sokes
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:25 pm

maint123 wrote:
Could you explain that in detail, couldn't get what you meant?
Don't fret about jabs at India, its just knee jerk reactions at high paying jobs getting diverted.
...
At the moment, India and its software industry has taken a lot of good paying jobs, so it's a easy target. Example, the perpetual software issues with the British Airways being blamed on India, while the outsourcing is to a east European country and probably not even its fault.

Interesting that one can read my post that way. My wife is Indian (I'm son in law of India) and I live there.
I meant to say that most Indians don't really get a chance. However one mustn't underestimate intelligence. Even if only one percent of the population is suitable for the work Boeing intends to do, 1% of 1.300.000.000 people is still quite a lot of potential employment. Don't believe the numbers, I try to show a principle.
Are Indians in America known to be incapable? I haven't been in America, but I read they are mostly in the high income group.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:28 pm

Redsand187 wrote:
It is my understanding that there is a lot of trained people in India, but the quality to which they have been trained is very hard to verify and they typically lack experience. ... Their opportunities come in the form of Western companies handing off low priority busywork without a lot of guidance. So you have inexperience workers with unknown quality of education trying to complete tasks with direction from their bosses to do it as quickly and cheaply as possible. It's a recipe for disaster.
...
If they invested the same amount of money it would cost to do the same work in the USA and allowed some time to develop employees in India, they'd be better off.

If not interested in Indian workforce, skip this post.

I don't think any type of work for planes is unqualified work.
And India is not competitive in low qualified works. The currency is overvalued, India has a big balance of trade deficit.
check the pictures on this page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustan ... cs_Limited
These products may not be as good as Boeing/ Airbus, but it's qualified work.

I should have mentioned Indian Institutes of technology. These are good universities. It's very hard to come through the entrance exam.
"The qualification rate of the JEE-Advanced in 2017 was approximately 0.92% (about 11,000 out of 1,200,000 who applied for JEE Main)"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Ent ... 3_Advanced

"The extent of intellectual loss receded substantially over the 1990s and 2000s, with the percentage of students going abroad dropping from as high as 70% at one time to around 30% in 2005."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_In ... Technology

From "The Economic times", 3.8.19, a discussion about getting international students in these IITs:
"If a female student from Kenya gets 710 (score at entrance exam and minimum requirement to get selected), at least 6-7 leading American institutes will give her full waiver of tuition fees because you don't get too many candidates from the African sub(?)continent with that kind of GMAT cutoff. So why would she want to come to India then?"

Another 19.000 seats/ year in the National institutes of Technology.
" These institutes are among the top ranked engineering colleges in India and have one of the lowest acceptance rates for engineering institutes, of around 2 to 3 percent, second only to the Indian Institutes of Technology (IITs) in India. All NITs are autonomous which enables them to set up their own curriculum. The language of instruction is English at all these institutes.[1][2] As of 2017, the total number of seats for undergraduate programs is 19,000 and for post graduate programs is 8,050 in all 31 NITs.[3][4]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... Technology

India has 1.300.000.000 people. It's a young population. Lets say 2% leave school every year. That makes very roughly 26.000.000 young adults/ year.
So for each 1000 students leaving schools at least one will be highly technical qualified. Obviously there will be a lot more talent from other institutions. I don't know how difficult it is to judge the knowledge from these other institutes. But it's known many (most?) of these institutes do not train sufficiently. I assume there should still be some good ones. It probably depends how free from political interference they are. Which makes me pessimistic.

How many countries can do a Mars mission? I would say US, China, Europe, Russia and India.
11.000 IIT students/ year seem to be enough for India to have a space program, to design own fighter jets, to run an imported nuclear submarine and to design a new nuclear reactor type.
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prototype ... er_Reactor )

Funny enough India sends nearly all it's planes abroad for maintenance. Maybe India has enough qualified labor to design planes, but not enough qualified labor to maintain engines. Which is quite the point I'm trying to make about Indian education.
Isn't this strange?
So yes, India is poor and the educational system is pathetic. However there will be enough qualified labor for Boeing to get the desired employees.

Indian employees are not known for their loyalty to their employers. If training costs the company money another company will head hunt the trained employees.
I hope somebody with more knowledge will disagree and give a more differentiated answer. But that is what I read.

I'm happy to hear you want to read "Why Nations Fail". I believe this book and Macchiavelli's "The Prince" are the two books one needs to read for a better understanding of history. I'm pretty sure you will enjoy "Why Nations fail". It's one of my favorite books.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Pyrex
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:33 pm

Newark727 wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
Sigh... Another hit piece on the Charleston facility. Why do I get a sense all of these "quality problems" will somehow immediately get fixed if the employees there agree to give up a portion of their monthly earnings to a crime syndicate? Boring should really considering adding the unions for slander, which is all that this organized campaign of hit pieces amounts to.

What is somewhat depressing to see, though, is the usual a.net ignorance about all things economy related, from using the new Boogeyman du jour (share buybacks) as if it somehow was at all fundamentally different from a share buyback, which companies of all types have been paying since times immemorial, to even going so far as attacking the greatest wealth creation mechanism ever devised by mankind, public equity markets. Seems like a lot of people here claim to love aviation but hate the economic system that allows for it's development.


Boeing opened up the plant in Charleston to fight the unions. Seems only fair for the unions to fight back, no?

As for your expansive defense of markets - sure, they create wealth. But that's all they do, and that's not all that people need. To simply assume that market forces dictated a certain outcome, and therefore that outcome is correct, is abdicating an enormous amount of responsibility, and quite simply inviting massive abuse. At a certain point, the compromises stop being something that can be dismissed as just "hit pieces," and start hurting people. It doesn't take much looking to find examples.


Boeing opened a factory in Charleston because they had to take over the operations of a subcontractor there, and then built a final assembly line when they needed to add capacity to the 787 production line. The fact that it was a non-union location was just a bonus.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
multimark
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:25 pm

Boeing lost its way once it decided to screw the Pacific NW. The HQ move to Chicago, the Charleston plant...bad decisions. They've lost their way.
 
caljn
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:34 pm

multimark wrote:
Boeing lost its way once it decided to screw the Pacific NW. The HQ move to Chicago, the Charleston plant...bad decisions. They've lost their way.



This is an emotional response to utterly business calculations.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:24 am

Immigration involves some odd demographics. Chinatown Chinese came over from just few areas many from the later 1800s and worked on railroads and such. Chinese from the last several decades tend to come from universities and live in prosperous suburbs. Indians some decades ago were typically working (and owning) motels, corner grocery stores, and even rural gas station type 7/11s. Recent immigrants typically are highly educated and live in the various 'silicon' suburbs throughout the US. It makes for some interesting alliances and lack of alliances.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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seabosdca
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:34 am

caljn wrote:
This is an emotional response to utterly business calculations.


I don't agree with the poster you were responding to, but I don't think Boeing has made all of these decisions with perfect business rationality. IMO both Stonecipher and McNerney sometimes put too much weight on anti-union sentiment. Yes, unions add cost for the business, but that cost (and some benefit!) is quantifiable, and sometimes it felt like they were trying to de-unionize regardless of cost. IMO this was part of the reason they overreached so far with the 787 production plan, and also part of the reason they keep putting little weight on an experienced workforce when making assembly siting decisions.

Jury is still out on whether Muilenberg is susceptible to the same sentiment.
 
WIederling
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:54 am

caljn wrote:
multimark wrote:
Boeing lost its way once it decided to screw the Pacific NW. The HQ move to Chicago, the Charleston plant...bad decisions. They've lost their way.


This is an emotional response to utterly business calculations.


More of a factual observation, isn't it?
Management techniques in the US lead to redistribution of wealth and less creation of wealth.
( obvious outcome when you are set on winner/loser mechanics and draw power from stepping on the loser.)

As ever this creates blowback. you sink more time into competing and less into creating.
In that scope "sabotaging the competition" is a more effective tool than "excelling by performance".
( and you are well into applied US politics :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:25 am

VC10er wrote:
While I am not in the aviation business at all in any way— cost cutting and quarterly results calls are effecting every single publicly traded company.
I had one job at one agency for 24 years. I started at age 30 and the company was private. The #1 thing that mattered the MOST BY FAR was quality. My agency was owned by the last PRIVATE global advertising and communications giant. When the top brass came in to do their Bi-annual proctology examination on us, it was a 2 day affair. Day 1 was dedicated to showing them the work, our best projects, our latest process innovation, the biggest ideas that were break through for our clients. It was a sweaty palms day as you had to impress the hell out of them, blow them away. Day 2 was a closed door meeting with a handful of senior management to review numbers. (It was still a business after all, and growth and margins were important)
Then, as the last private advertising and communications global left standing, all of the competition was bought by publicly traded holding companies, we were finally bought. Within just a few months EVERYTHING CHANGED, nobody cared about the work, EVERYTHING was about money. We were all served giant tumblers of Kool-Aid and the first question from top brass changed from “what’s the most fabulous thing you’ve done lately?” To “How much money did you make, how much did you grow and what non essential expenses have been cut?” - Not one question about the work, and if you did share something great they’d say “how much did we get paid for that?”
Our lives were measured in 3 month intervals and when I left at 54, I had a far bigger title but a mere fraction of the power to make a decision than when I was 30.
The greed was both astonishing and nauseating. I like money just like everyone else, but there is a point when money does buy unhappiness!
On her way out, Indra Nooyi, CEO PepsiCo, said (paraphrasing) “quarterly calls force short term thinking and kills long term innovation, bi annual calls should be enough”
I think if Boeing or Airbus sell widgets that cost over $100 million a unit, every customer is entitled to complain even if 1 overhead reading light is missing a bulb. And for any company under the pressure from shareholders, and you’re intoxicated by the Kool-Aid, or your own stock comp, and so is your customer, yeah it will show up somehow. Like no more comb in a Polaris amenity kit, and a beautiful, sculpted and lit branded bulkhead disappears and replaced by plain wall paper.

That said, I’ve been on the 787-8/9/10 many, many times and I’m someone who notices EVERYTHING, and I have only ever sat or stood and looked and touched almost everything and I was always blown away by how beautiful she is inside. Nothing looks or feels “cheap” or “cheesy”- if a 787 has obvious cost cutting components, it’s not visible to the passengers. If my seat is busted somehow, that’s the airline.

It wasn’t always this bad, but it seems like after the Great Recession of 2006, all wiggle room to invest for the long term or “paying more” for the “best” of something or someone is almost gone!
Apologies if I come off as very cynical!


A few years ago I was selected to be on a project at the company I worked for at the time. Something along the lines of changing the culture for more innovation. Everyone from HR was super horny about the project because it was their sexy project, their turn to be “strategic” (in quotes because HR always talks about being strategic but NEVER is). The whole time no one on that team ever mentioned the financial pressures of being a publicly traded company and how that might impact innovation (I kept my mouth shut). The company was known for decent products but in the investment world was known more for consistently hitting financial targets and delivering dividends. That company was never, ever going to be an innovation power house. As predicted, the “change the culture” project rolled out with great fanfare — insulated traveler tumblers, iPhone covers, balloons and banners throughout all offices. HR had an orgasm. Nothing changed.

So you’re not cynical. The aircraft manufacturing and airline industries will always be driven first and foremost by hitting a short term financial target regardless of long term impact.
Last edited by questions on Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:43 am

Revelation wrote:
I'm there as well, in terms of cynicism. I'm glad I'm (much?) closer to the end of my career rather than the beginning, so I don't have to be a part of the race to the bottom much longer.

One thing I keep noticing is the sack of coffee I buy now has less coffee in it. Pretty simple thing to compare the old empty bag to the new less full one and see they just cut out 12% of the contents without lowering the price by 12%. See the same thing in newer smaller containers for things like sports drinks and spaghetti sauce. Even one brand of bread I've been purchasing for two decades or more now has two fewer slices of bread. New smaller container, same high price. Somehow they think we don't notice their blatant dishonesty. They could be honest and just charge more because they think their product is worth it, but instead they chose the dishonest approach. So much short term thinking!

The thing is, how do things change?

In the US, the odd thing is the only real hope is that greedy lawyers sue the begeezus out of greedy corporations to the point where they feel the pain.

Clearly Congress is bought and paid for and is also ideologically deadlocked, so there's no hope of it resolving anything.


I see all these young tech millennials and Gen Z’s running around thinking they’re the bomb. Little do they know they will not last as long as us and will probably have just 10-15 years before they go splat.

Kudos to you for buying a “sack of coffee.” Beats $5 cups of coffee twice a day. The cost of Convenience Consumerism is atrocious.

The US is government of the people by the lobbyists and donors for the lobbyists and donors. No politician is for his/her constituents.

Boeing will eventually exit the commercial airplane business. Too many strategic missteps and poor management decisions are catching up to them.
 
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:16 pm

questions wrote:
Boeing will eventually exit the commercial airplane business. Too many strategic missteps and poor management decisions are catching up to them.


Boeing will exit when they find interplanetary vehicles are more profitable than intercontinental vehicles.

Missteps were made, but tell me of all the current aircraft manufacturing conglomerates, which one have not made a few major blunders?

bt
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:56 pm

Sokes wrote:
My barber’s son just finished his studies as software engineer. He says companies want experienced labour. Which probably means a degree is no proof of qualification. If nobody takes him he intends to open his own barber shop. I believe to remember that India has more than a million unemployed engineers. Most of them wouldn’t qualify as engineers in an industrial country. But how many % of them will be better than industrial country average?

Your comments about India and its educational standards are interesting to me.

As an American engineer I was pushed into a role supervising work being done in India. My boss didn't care that my entire career was in developing software and I had no experience or training in supervising others etc. His bosses said the project was to be outsourced, my name was picked out of a hat, what could go wrong?

What I found is the contracting firm found one pretty experienced guy and made him our interface to the rest of their team. In hindsight they were using him as gatekeeper, and to show us they had a staff member who could communicate well both in terms of language and technology, and to help my management think the rest of the team was as competent as he was. The problem was that whatever we communicated to him never got communicated correctly to his teammates for whatever reason. Perhaps he just was good at sounding like he was understanding us when he was not. Perhaps he did understand us but his underlings just didn't know what he was saying so they did whatever they thought he wanted. The end outcome was of course a failure. We had daily meetings where the 'interface guy' would say he understood what we wanted. I would type long emails confirming our agreement on what was to be done. By the next daily meeting I'd learn that their team had gone off and done something that was very different from what we had agreed would be done. Yet since both management teams (ours and theirs) had so much invested in the relationship working out, the failures were ignored and the end result was lots of time and money were wasted.

I think in the early days of offshoring the US side that I was a part of had a false sense of the talent level in India. People in my age group (let's say leaving college in the mid/late 80s or so) had run in to various Indians either in US schools or corporate life, and they were smart, well trained, highly motivated and successful. We should have realized that we were seeing the cream of the crop but we did not, it seems we just thought the country produced geniuses in droves. Early outsourcing went well while there still was talent to be had cheaply, but sooner or later that ran out. I was in meetings with US-based Indian colleagues (either born in India or elsewhere) and they were explaining all this to US management quite clearly, but management would not listen, all they saw were dollar signs, the less they paid the better. The best people in India angled for jobs in Western firms because they were the most prestigious, offered growth opportunities and chances for travel, paid the best and were the most stable. The second choice was to work for an outsourcing firm, and even those had different rankings. Clearly the largest and most successful outsourcing firms paid the best and had the most opportunity for moving up the ladder. Thus the smaller outsourcing firms tended to get the lower rungs of talent, which was what I was dealing with.

Yet on the other hand, as I wrote in another a.net thread, IBM now has more employees in India versus the US. Seems they've found a balance between talent and price that they are happy with. As you point out India still produces a large number of talented engineers whereas it seems the US has declined since the days of "the greatest generation" who fought WWII then got free college educations via the GI Bill and ended up training the Apollo generation and beyond. A large swath of my college's campus was built out to handle the GI Bill students and a large number of my professors were GI Bill students. These days students see their future as making social media videos rather than wanting to be in the sci/tech fields.

It's interesting your barber's son has the training to be a software engineer but may end up as a barber. At least he's not signing up for tech support scamming. There's a whole genre of tech support scam baiting videos that give you a good glimpse at what some people who are willing to steal while sat in a comfy call center will do. It's also sad that the world chose to move forward with Microsoft as their primary operating system vendor when so many of us were pointing out what a bad idea that was.
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:20 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Boeing will exit when they find interplanetary vehicles are more profitable than intercontinental vehicles.


First to market in a very lucrative industry sector.
 
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:29 pm

Revelation wrote:

... the project was to be outsourced, my name was picked out of a hat, what could go wrong?

What I found is the contracting firm found one pretty experienced guy and made him our interface to the rest of their team. In hindsight they were using him as gatekeeper, and to show us they had a staff member who could communicate well both in terms of language and technology, and to help my management think the rest of the team was as competent as he was. The problem was that whatever we communicated to him never got communicated correctly to his teammates for whatever reason. Perhaps he just was good at sounding like he was understanding us when he was not. Perhaps he did understand us but his underlings just didn't know what he was saying so they did whatever they thought he wanted. The end outcome was of course a failure.


I spent a week in Hyderabad. I repeatedly had to ask people for the way and I repeatedly got the answer "I don't know." The third time I heard "I don't know" I said to my wife: "What a funny place is this? People say that they don't know if they don't know. If I wanted to start a research institute in India I would do it here."
Some weeks later I was in another state. Against all expectation somebody in an office said to me "I don't know.".
I started laughing and asked: "You don't know? You could be from Hyderabad!"
He said: "I am from Hyderabad."


Revelation wrote:
[
Early outsourcing went well while there still was talent to be had cheaply, but sooner or later that ran out. ... Clearly the largest and most successful outsourcing firms paid the best and had the most opportunity for moving up the ladder. Thus the smaller outsourcing firms tended to get the lower rungs of talent, which was what I was dealing with.

Yet on the other hand, as I wrote in another a.net thread, IBM now has more employees in India versus the US. Seems they've found a balance between talent and price that they are happy with. As you point out India still produces a large number of talented engineers whereas it seems the US has declined since the days of "the greatest generation" who fought WWII then got free college educations via the GI Bill and ended up training the Apollo generation and beyond. A large swath of my college's campus was built out to handle the GI Bill students and a large number of my professors were GI Bill students. These days students see their future as making social media videos rather than wanting to be in the sci/tech fields.



If your company wanted cheap labor in India, that's your company's fault.

Some months back I met a guy in a bus. He told me he and his team are designing a big building. Thickness of columns, reinforcement rods needed, technical drawings...
I assume the group already has a high qualified Indian supervisor who will find most if not all the mistakes. All this work will be checked by engineers in the US.
The Indian doesn't need to be top qualified. If his salary is cheap enough it's o.k. if he makes some mistakes.The engineer in the US who checks for mistakes however has to be perfect. Keep in mind my example is not product development. There are known solutions, they just have to apply it/ make calculations.

It's very interesting what you say about the role of government in US education. Isn't it true that the Americans born 60 years back were simply more lucky than those who are born now? I also find Germany isn't as good as it used to be. In Germany it's labor market regulation, not education that's the problem. However the labor market affects education. Earlier 30% of children went to the highest type of school. If a child struggled in school parents agreed for the child to go in the medium difficult school. There were plenty of career options for high performers in the medium type of school. As there are few good career options left for those who didn't pass the highest type school parents push their children. At all costs should the child remain in the highest type school.
Children suffer under the pressure. Parents suffer under their worries for the children. I call it a loose-loose situation.
At the end of the day it all comes down to politics.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:06 pm

Sokes wrote:
Revelation wrote:
[
Early outsourcing went well while there still was talent to be had cheaply, but sooner or later that ran out. ... Clearly the largest and most successful outsourcing firms paid the best and had the most opportunity for moving up the ladder. Thus the smaller outsourcing firms tended to get the lower rungs of talent, which was what I was dealing with.

Yet on the other hand, as I wrote in another a.net thread, IBM now has more employees in India versus the US. Seems they've found a balance between talent and price that they are happy with. As you point out India still produces a large number of talented engineers whereas it seems the US has declined since the days of "the greatest generation" who fought WWII then got free college educations via the GI Bill and ended up training the Apollo generation and beyond. A large swath of my college's campus was built out to handle the GI Bill students and a large number of my professors were GI Bill students. These days students see their future as making social media videos rather than wanting to be in the sci/tech fields.

If your company wanted cheap labor in India, that's your company's fault.

Agreed. I think they were presuming the glory days of the early portion of the outsourcing era where you could get good talent cheap were still in effect, when in fact they were not.

Sokes wrote:
Some months back I met a guy in a bus. He told me he and his team are designing a big building. Thickness of columns, reinforcement rods needed, technical drawings...
I assume the group already has a high qualified Indian supervisor who will find most if not all the mistakes. All this work will be checked by engineers in the US.
The Indian doesn't need to be top qualified. If his salary is cheap enough it's o.k. if he makes some mistakes.The engineer in the US who checks for mistakes however has to be perfect. Keep in mind my example is not product development. There are known solutions, they just have to apply it/ make calculations.

In my current firm I saw a case where they just outsourced a power supply design to China. What could go wrong? Power supplies are well understood, no? Turns out this was for a specific telecom application that was pushing the edges of the state of the art. Engineers pointed this out, management wanted the China strategy to work, they sent the work to China. Turns out the power supply designed in China wouldn't even meet the mainstream requirements never mind the new edge pushing ones. The end result is the work gets thrown at the US engineer who was just supposed to be an overseer so he already is overloaded with other tasks. He gets to pick up a broken design late in the project and way over budget and is expected to salvage it.

Sokes wrote:
It's very interesting what you say about the role of government in US education. Isn't it true that the Americans born 60 years back were simply more lucky than those who are born now?
...
At the end of the day it all comes down to politics.

Yes, it is true.

The Nixon administration was loaded with conservatives who thought of universities as breeding grounds for liberals, which to a fair degree was true, but they are also breeding grounds for the kinds of sci/tech skills we now need. They didn't care if they threw the baby out with the bath water: their hatred for public universities was driven by a particularly intoxicating form of ideology, and besides, they were all rich enough to send their own kids to private universities anyway. The Nixon administration did all it could to defund public universities but didn't have Congressional support. By the time the Reagan Administration came in, they did have the Congressional support and largely did defund public universities.

What we now have is the end result of runaway capitalism: universities are seen as profit centers, university presidents that become rich off their student's backs are seen as role models to be praised and emulated, and just like the sacks of coffee mentioned above the universities often minimize the content they provide to the students in order to maximize profits. In turn, students often don't view universities as learning centers, they often view them as "check the box" exercises needed to get a piece of paper, and they use avenues like social media to criticize professors that make them work hard and steer other students to other classes or universities where the going is easiest. Not to mention rampant cheating. How do I know this? At least four different friends/relatives/acquaintances who work at universities and are also sick of the race to the bottom.
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:38 am

Revelation wrote:
Sokes wrote:
If your company wanted cheap labor in India, that's your company's fault.

Agreed. I think they were presuming the glory days of the early portion of the outsourcing era where you could get good talent cheap were still in effect, when in fact they were not.


I once drove my car in rear gear. I saw the edge of the road in my outside rear mirror. Suddenly a bang. The government had installed solar lamps with battery box attached. The box was attached in 1,5 m height. The box projected in the road. I didn't see it in the mirror as it was too high. The showroom did a good job.
Two years later I had some other paint work. It got corroded again within 5 months. They repainted under warranty. After 3 months again corrosion. I said to myself that I'm not willing to give them my car every three months for five days. It was the same showroom. So what happened?
There were hardly any cars 10 years back. At least for five years before my bad experience car registrations grew by more than 20% per year. Moreover I drive a cheap car. I assume the new workers are used on the cheap cars. Maybe they couldn't find suitable workers. But as I drive a cheap car I can't really conclude that.

I meant to say your company should have been willing to pay higher for whatever they decided to outsource to India. Or maybe they simply didn't find the right business partner. But that apart I suppose an economy can only grow at high rates for sustained periods if the educational system is good. Otherwise I expect the quality of products/ services to fall. Too strong growth has it's disadvantages.
Outsourcing is going on for a long time now. I assume somebody who still has to find business partners will make bad experiences. On the long run it's profitable.


Revelation wrote:
In my current firm I saw a case where they just outsourced a power supply design to China. What could go wrong? Power supplies are well understood, no? Turns out this was for a specific telecom application that was pushing the edges of the state of the art.


The Chinese are on average of course better than the Indians now. Even though one has to ask "which Chinese"/ "which Indian"?
If I have a demanding application I should know my business partner well if I intend to outsource to a low wage country.
It's the idea of free markets. Everybody country does the products/ services it does best and for the cheapest rate. India is very good in generic medicines. It's also very good in software. That doesn't mean that a majority of software engineers are good. It may also mean they need somebody from a wealthier country to check. But that is reflected in salaries. You are in software. Some years back I heard a supervisor of 8 people in Bangalore in software earned 1,500 Dollar. Even if it is 2000 $: How much does a kitchen helper in the US earn?
One can't expect people who earn a fraction to deliver the same results. And certain works may be unsuitable for outsourcing.

I'm aware there is a discussion about job losses through outsourcing in the US.
Ludwig Erhard, German economy minister after WW2 and father of the German economic miracle argued one has to make the cake bigger. Then everybody can have a bigger slice. I don't say there aren't individual professions who are disadvantaged by the competition. But I don't think US jobs overall are negative affected. If Indians are supposed to fly Boeing planes they need something to export.
Trump is angry with German trade surpluses. He has a point. India has a trade deficit. They need a bigger slice of global work share for the cake to expand.


Revelation wrote:
At least four different friends/relatives/acquaintances who work at universities and are also sick of the race to the bottom.


Goa had a chief minister which actually passed from an IIT. Roads got thick layers of hot mixed tar applied. These roads lasted long. One day motorbike taxis went on strike. I asked what they are striking against. Petrol price increase.
This chief minister didn't give much freebies. He lost the next election. After five years in opposition he promised that each woman sitting at home will get 500 Rs/ month if he is elected. He got absolute majority of seats.
( https://web.archive.org/web/20120313051 ... gress-out# )
The monthly money for women sitting at home was repeatedly increased, but I don't see much development in Goa since this 2012 election.

Left wing media has the following rumor: After the collapse of UdSSR NATO was in the uncomfortable position of "out of area or out of business". Yugoslavia was the rescue. It was a just war. There were no economic interests. Christians came to rescue Muslims from a Christian aggressor. As beautiful as it gets in warfare.
However Helmut Kohl had lost a brother in WW2. His wife had been repeatedly raped and thrown out of a window which led to livelong complains at the spine. Helmut Kohl refused to participate in Yugoslavia. Rumor has it that Schroeder/ Fischer were offered by the ruling classes that public opinion will be manipulated in their favor if they are willing to participate. I remember the discussions at that time: "It is time for a change..."

As Macchiavelli says: It doesn't matter how good a ruler is, people will demand change in time.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Re: More Bad News for Boeing: Poor quality complaints from customers

Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:10 pm

Please keep the thread on track.
The last few posts have deviated from the Boeing quality issues to outsourcing/cheap labor in other countries without Boeing being mentioned anywhere. This thread is specifically about Boeing and the quality issues of the finished product at Charleston, nothing to do with outsourcing.

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