I'm hearing (and seeing on Wikipedia) that KLM has ordered 2 further 777-300s for delivery next year.

In addition, the 787-9s that were originally ordered by AF will now be 787-10s (these are the 789s swapped for the A350s).

However, other than WIKI, I can't find any details or any reliable back-up source.

Does anyone have any more details or evidence to the back this up?

Yes, this was mentioned last week on Dutch aviation site Scramble by a very reliable source. He also mentioned the regs of the new 77W: PH-BVV and PH-BVW. I added the news in the thread about AF A220 order / A380 retirement: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1426877&start=473

I'm flying to JFK next month and my outbound has been changed from 747-400 to 787-9 which i'm not happy about. I wonder if it will be changed again to a 787-10?

CHRISBA35X wrote:

I'm flying to JFK next month and my outbound has been changed from 747-400 to 787-9 which i'm not happy about. I wonder if it will be changed again to a 787-10?

There is more profit to be made on the 789. What is not to like?

lightsaber wrote:

CHRISBA35X wrote:

I'm flying to JFK next month and my outbound has been changed from 747-400 to 787-9 which i'm not happy about. I wonder if it will be changed again to a 787-10?

There is more profit to be made on the 789. What is not to like?

From an enthusiast’s perspective I think he would like to fly in the increasingly rarer 744 than in a 787.

lightsaber wrote:

CHRISBA35X wrote:

I'm flying to JFK next month and my outbound has been changed from 747-400 to 787-9 which i'm not happy about. I wonder if it will be changed again to a 787-10?

There is more profit to be made on the 789. What is not to like?

Presumably, as an aviation fan who has a ticket booked, one isn't concerned about the airline's profit on a specific departure vs. the ability to experience a flight in an ever-dwindling fleet of 747s.

CHRISBA35X wrote:

I'm flying to JFK next month and my outbound has been changed from 747-400 to 787-9 which i'm not happy about. I wonder if it will be changed again to a 787-10?

There aren't many 787-10s in the fleet yet, according to planespotters.net.

CHRISBA35X wrote:

I'm flying to JFK next month and my outbound has been changed from 747-400 to 787-9 which i'm not happy about. I wonder if it will be changed again to a 787-10?

KLM uses A330's, B747's, B789's and B777's on the JFK route so yes, there is a chance it will change again.

MIflyer12 wrote:

CHRISBA35X wrote:

I'm flying to JFK next month and my outbound has been changed from 747-400 to 787-9 which i'm not happy about. I wonder if it will be changed again to a 787-10?

There aren't many 787-10s in the fleet yet, according to planespotters.net.

Currently, every wide body type but the B78X sees JFK. However, B78X service will replace the A333 on KL641/2 starting in January (Tuesdays and Thursdays).

I'm actually surprised that KL hasn't ordered B777 freighters though; even AF has two dedicated freighters (they initially ordered 3, but sold the other delivery slot to FX). Something will be needed to replace the B744 freighters, and those B777Fs could be sent on ad hoc services where a combi would currently go.

I don't like that they to buy old technology, when they could have bought more quiet planes.

Still more curious of what aircraft are going to replace the last 15 -700's...

FB330 wrote:

I'm hearing (and seeing on Wikipedia) that KLM has ordered 2 further 777-300s for delivery next year.

In addition, the 787-9s that were originally ordered by AF will now be 787-10s (these are the 789s swapped for the A350s).

However, other than WIKI, I can't find any details or any reliable back-up source.

Does anyone have any more details or evidence to the back this up?

Until we have a source other than another forum lets discuss it as a rumour. Title has been updated.

SQ22 wrote:

FB330 wrote:

I'm hearing (and seeing on Wikipedia) that KLM has ordered 2 further 777-300s for delivery next year.

In addition, the 787-9s that were originally ordered by AF will now be 787-10s (these are the 789s swapped for the A350s).

However, other than WIKI, I can't find any details or any reliable back-up source.

Does anyone have any more details or evidence to the back this up?

Until we have a source other than another forum lets discuss it as a rumour. Title has been updated.

The conversion from of the 787-9's to the -10's is actually already confirmed by KLM (source in Dutch): https://nieuws.klm.com/de-air-france-kl ... andsvloot/

hOMSaR wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

CHRISBA35X wrote:

I'm flying to JFK next month and my outbound has been changed from 747-400 to 787-9 which i'm not happy about. I wonder if it will be changed again to a 787-10?

There is more profit to be made on the 789. What is not to like?

Presumably, as an aviation fan who has a ticket booked, one isn't concerned about the airline's profit on a specific departure vs. the ability to experience a flight in an ever-dwindling fleet of 747s.

I love the 747. I worked incredible mods on the 747. I have manipulated to make every one of my TATL trips on the 747.

AF/KLM needs to improve their profits. As an enthuast, I first want airlines healthy businesses.

As an aerospace engineer, I already see my earliest in service work being scrapped. Cest la vie. Some of my work is MC-21, pearl, PW1200G, PW800, pw1100G (in problem areas, but hey, my circa 2000 work needed updating), and silvercrest (errr... ) so I know the best is yet to come.

My employer rarely flies KLM as their J class price is outside of the rest of the market. Since I would like to fly KLM and there are now so few TATL 747 options, I'm not likely to fly another 747 TA To l, so I accept my next flight is a twin.

Lightsaber

I don't think this will be the last 789 -> 78J conversion.

aemoreira1981 wrote:

I'm actually surprised that KL hasn't ordered B777 freighters though; even AF has two dedicated freighters (they initially ordered 3, but sold the other delivery slot to FX). Something will be needed to replace the B744 freighters, and those B777Fs could be sent on ad hoc services where a combi would currently go.

The B744ERF’s aren’t going anywhere. In fact KL is currently looking for a fourth B744(ER)F, to replace the inconvenient single B744BCF.

lightsaber wrote:

CHRISBA35X wrote:

I'm flying to JFK next month and my outbound has been changed from 747-400 to 787-9 which i'm not happy about. I wonder if it will be changed again to a 787-10?

There is more profit to be made on the 789. What is not to like?

Passenger comfort is a big deal in my world..

lightsaber wrote:

hOMSaR wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

AF/KLM needs to improve their profits. As an enthuast, I first want airlines healthy businesses.

Lightsaber

That's a loaded statement...

I find it interesting (though not surprising) that KLM like United and Swiss are taking end of the line 77Ws for low prices while they could have had the option of ordering new generation planes.

With the a350 order taken away from KLM, I would think this means that until there is less of a backlog for the 77X, it will hold them over.

tvh wrote:

I don't like that they to buy old technology, when they could have bought more quiet planes.

The 787 isn't exactly quiet.

Im trying to find to find sources in both English and Dutch for the -300ER's but apart from Wikipedia i've been thus far unsuccessful.

As far as I know from these rumours, both two new B777-300ERs are not directly ordered at Boeing, but will be leased.

Cheers!

IWMBH wrote:

SQ22 wrote:

FB330 wrote:

I'm hearing (and seeing on Wikipedia) that KLM has ordered 2 further 777-300s for delivery next year.

In addition, the 787-9s that were originally ordered by AF will now be 787-10s (these are the 789s swapped for the A350s).

However, other than WIKI, I can't find any details or any reliable back-up source.

Does anyone have any more details or evidence to the back this up?

Until we have a source other than another forum lets discuss it as a rumour. Title has been updated.

The conversion from of the 787-9's to the -10's is actually already confirmed by KLM (source in Dutch): https://nieuws.klm.com/de-air-france-kl ... andsvloot/

There is no wording about changing the B787s on order into -10s in that press release. Just that KLM will take the B787s which were originally destined for Air France and that they eventually will operate a fleet of 27 B787s with no break down in which variant

So the conversion of -9s into -10s is unconfirmed.

Cheers!

910A wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

CHRISBA35X wrote:

I'm flying to JFK next month and my outbound has been changed from 747-400 to 787-9 which i'm not happy about. I wonder if it will be changed again to a 787-10?

There is more profit to be made on the 789. What is not to like?

Passenger comfort is a big deal in my world..

But are you willing to pay the correct price for it?
Airline passengers and accountants interests are directly opposed...

LifelinerOne wrote:

IWMBH wrote:

SQ22 wrote:

Until we have a source other than another forum lets discuss it as a rumour. Title has been updated.

The conversion from of the 787-9's to the -10's is actually already confirmed by KLM (source in Dutch): https://nieuws.klm.com/de-air-france-kl ... andsvloot/

There is no wording about changing the B787s on order into -10s in that press release. Just that KLM will take the B787s which were originally destined for Air France and that they eventually will operate a fleet of 27 B787s with no break down in which variant

So the conversion of -9s into -10s is unconfirmed.

It isn't explicitly mentioned but can be implied from the text.

Deze extra Boeing 787-10's helpen KLM haar routenetwerk de komende jaren verder te ontwikkelen en brengt het totale aantal Dreamliners op 28.

The title is still wrong because KLM never converted these 787-9's to 10's. They were converted at the moment they became destined for KLM instead of AF.

??

KLM is therefore happy to be able to expand the 787 fleet via this 'order swap'. These extra Boeing 787-10s help KLM further develop its route network in the coming years and bring the total number of Dreamliners to 28 (13 B787-9s and 15 B787s).

LifelinerOne wrote:

IWMBH wrote:

SQ22 wrote:

Until we have a source other than another forum lets discuss it as a rumour. Title has been updated.

The conversion from of the 787-9's to the -10's is actually already confirmed by KLM (source in Dutch): https://nieuws.klm.com/de-air-france-kl ... andsvloot/

There is no wording about changing the B787s on order into -10s in that press release. Just that KLM will take the B787s which were originally destined for Air France and that they eventually will operate a fleet of 27 B787s with no break down in which variant

So the conversion of -9s into -10s is unconfirmed.

Cheers!

LifelinerOne wrote:

IWMBH wrote:

SQ22 wrote:

Until we have a source other than another forum lets discuss it as a rumour. Title has been updated.

The conversion from of the 787-9's to the -10's is actually already confirmed by KLM (source in Dutch): https://nieuws.klm.com/de-air-france-kl ... andsvloot/

There is no wording about changing the B787s on order into -10s in that press release. Just that KLM will take the B787s which were originally destined for Air France and that they eventually will operate a fleet of 27 B787s with no break down in which variant

So the conversion of -9s into -10s is unconfirmed.

Cheers!

It is actually, but here is one more in English: https://news.klm.com/its-here-klms-firs ... reamliner/

tvh wrote:

I don't like that they to buy old technology, when they could have bought more quiet planes.

What are you talking about ?

910A wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

CHRISBA35X wrote:

I'm flying to JFK next month and my outbound has been changed from 747-400 to 787-9 which i'm not happy about. I wonder if it will be changed again to a 787-10?

There is more profit to be made on the 789. What is not to like?

Passenger comfort is a big deal in my world..

Then cough up extra dough for business

IWMBH wrote:

The conversion from of the 787-9's to the -10's is actually already confirmed by KLM (source in Dutch): https://nieuws.klm.com/de-air-france-kl ... andsvloot/

Interesting, given KLM's complaints about KCHS built planes...

Revelation wrote:

IWMBH wrote:

The conversion from of the 787-9's to the -10's is actually already confirmed by KLM (source in Dutch): https://nieuws.klm.com/de-air-france-kl ... andsvloot/

Interesting, given KLM's complaints about KCHS built planes...

KL has actually already reacted on these stories and have confirmed they've found some problems but that it is nothing uncommon:

"It is true that a few things were identified by KLM that were subsequently discussed with Boeing and repaired. We always find something small, and that is no different now, because we are very critical in the interest of our customers. By working this way we constantly improve the quality of the aircraft. "

"With every delivery of a new aircraft, specialized people from KLM (including a pilot) carry out intensive system checks for two weeks, both on the ground and in the air," the company continues. "Before the plane was handed over, everything was checked for safety and quality." https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... 87-fabriek

Revelation wrote:

IWMBH wrote:

The conversion from of the 787-9's to the -10's is actually already confirmed by KLM (source in Dutch): https://nieuws.klm.com/de-air-france-kl ... andsvloot/

Interesting, given KLM's complaints about KCHS built planes...

The swap to 10's predates the first delivery (and thus complaints). KL has indicated that they are worried about future deliveries of the -10.

“Who looks at quality in this facility,” KLM asked, adding the airline “is worried for the next deliveries.”

They might regret it now knowing the quality issues at Charleston.

tvh wrote:

I don't like that they to buy old technology, when they could have bought more quiet planes.

777X's wouldn't have been available in 2020. So rather than use the last 747's longer they chose the latest technology that flies 400+ pax.

So when will KLM retire the last 744s?

Jetty wrote:

The swap to 10's predates the first delivery (and thus complaints). KL has indicated that they are worried about future deliveries of the -10.

However they swapped another six -9's to -10's recently. And they got earlier delivery slots (and two 77W's). So it looks like something was worked out between KLM and Boeing in the end.

marcogr12 wrote:

So when will KLM retire the last 744s?

Two in 2019, six in 2020. The last two around May 1st. 2021.

inkjet7 wrote:

Jetty wrote:

The swap to 10's predates the first delivery (and thus complaints). KL has indicated that they are worried about future deliveries of the -10.

However they swapped another six -9's to -10's recently. And they got earlier delivery slots (and two 77W's). So it looks like something was worked out between KLM and Boeing in the end.

Where did you read they are getting earlier delivery slots? And there aren't any sources about the 77W, for all we know they're second hand (although I don't believe KL has ever bought second-hand).

IWMBH wrote:

Where did you read they're getting earlier delivery slots?

The same posting on scramble that mentioned the up-gauging of the six 787-9's that would have gone to AF, if they wouldn't have been swapped with the A350's that would have gone to KLM.

inkjet7 wrote:

Jetty wrote:

The swap to 10's predates the first delivery (and thus complaints). KL has indicated that they are worried about future deliveries of the -10.

However they swapped another six -9's to -10's recently. And they got earlier delivery slots (and two 77W's). So it looks like something was worked out between KLM and Boeing in the end.

It seems likely all those changes were part of the same deal that predates the first delivery. The AFKL group made this purchase, all other planes KL bought/leased themselves.

I’m sure issues can be resolved anyway, but that’ll always depend on Boeing being willing to invest in decent assembly instead of chasing maximum short-term profits.

Jetty wrote:

inkjet7 wrote:

Jetty wrote:

The swap to 10's predates the first delivery (and thus complaints). KL has indicated that they are worried about future deliveries of the -10.

However they swapped another six -9's to -10's recently. And they got earlier delivery slots (and two 77W's). So it looks like something was worked out between KLM and Boeing in the end.

It seems likely all those changes were part of the same deal that predates the first delivery. The AFKL group made this purchase, all other planes KL bought/leased themselves.

I’m sure issues can be resolved anyway, but that’ll always depend on Boeing being willing to invest in decent assembly instead of chasing maximum short-term profits.

Of course issues can almost always be resolved. But don't forget that KL is an airline that is an airline that is hit pretty hard by Boeings mistakes, although they don't even have MAX planes on order. Besides the quality issues that delayed their 787, they also should've received an 737 not too long ago. But Boeing screwed up the manufacturing so bad that they had to order an entirely new hull, delaying the delivery till December. Id say that Boeing had something to make up for, maybe they had a good deal on the end of the line -300ER's.

tvh wrote:

I don't like that they to buy old technology, when they could have bought more quiet planes.

Old tech, hah! Is there a widebody with 10,000km range with lower CASM? Lower CO2 emissions?

VSMUT wrote:

tvh wrote:

I don't like that they to buy old technology, when they could have bought more quiet planes.

The 787 isn't exactly quiet.

If the 787 isn't exactly quiet, then the 350 must not be that quiet either, right?, may I suggest if the noise bothers you SO much, perhaps if you ask kindly, the cockpit crew can shutdown the engines just for you!, doesnt the 350 come with those rollback engines,? Have a nice day vSMUT

ClipperMonsoon wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

tvh wrote:

I don't like that they to buy old technology, when they could have bought more quiet planes.

The 787 isn't exactly quiet.

If the 787 isn't exactly quiet, then the 350 must not be that quiet either, right?, may I suggest if the noise bothers you SO much, perhaps if you ask kindly, the cockpit crew can shutdown the engines just for you!, doesnt the 350 come with those rollback engines,? Have a nice day vSMUT

I am talking about the 777-300 ofcourse. The 787 is a quiet modern plane.

tvh wrote:

ClipperMonsoon wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

The 787 isn't exactly quiet.

If the 787 isn't exactly quiet, then the 350 must not be that quiet either, right?, may I suggest if the noise bothers you SO much, perhaps if you ask kindly, the cockpit crew can shutdown the engines just for you!, doesnt the 350 come with those rollback engines,? Have a nice day vSMUT

I am talking about the 777-300 ofcourse. The 787 is a quiet modern plane.

The 787 is quite modern, but not quiet.

tvh wrote:

ClipperMonsoon wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

The 787 isn't exactly quiet.

If the 787 isn't exactly quiet, then the 350 must not be that quiet either, right?, may I suggest if the noise bothers you SO much, perhaps if you ask kindly, the cockpit crew can shutdown the engines just for you!, doesnt the 350 come with those rollback engines,? Have a nice day vSMUT

I am talking about the 777-300 ofcourse. The 787 is a quiet modern plane.

I agree with tvh, KLM is buying the old stuff, must be for an attractive price, but still. The lag in the replacement cycle, one of the last to have new Boeing 737-800's being delivered, last one next year and now 777-300's, new. Both planes have newer alternatives. Given that Schiphol is slot restricted and the minister has said that new slots may be awarded if the total noise and pollution isn't going to be increased. KLM is, of course, a huge user of Schiphol, so given these circomstaces, they might want to adapt and get the new shiny toys, not the old stuff, because you can bet on it that the new slots (and the current max. of 500.000) will be awarded through a system were noise and pollution will be in the equation.
At least they have modern 787's and now new E195-E2's on order.

LifelinerOne wrote:

As far as I know from these rumours, both two new B777-300ERs are not directly ordered at Boeing, but will be leased.

Cheers!

Which lease company has new 77W on order?

ClipperMonsoon wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

tvh wrote:

I don't like that they to buy old technology, when they could have bought more quiet planes.

The 787 isn't exactly quiet.

If the 787 isn't exactly quiet, then the 350 must not be that quiet either, right?, may I suggest if the noise bothers you SO much, perhaps if you ask kindly, the cockpit crew can shutdown the engines just for you!, doesnt the 350 come with those rollback engines,? Have a nice day vSMUT

I have yet to try the A350 myself yet, but everyone I know who tried it say it is much more quiet. Same for the A380. But I have been on multiple A330s, and they are much more quiet than the 787.

Dutchy wrote:

tvh wrote:

ClipperMonsoon wrote:

If the 787 isn't exactly quiet, then the 350 must not be that quiet either, right?, may I suggest if the noise bothers you SO much, perhaps if you ask kindly, the cockpit crew can shutdown the engines just for you!, doesnt the 350 come with those rollback engines,? Have a nice day vSMUT

I am talking about the 777-300 ofcourse. The 787 is a quiet modern plane.

I agree with tvh, KLM is buying the old stuff, must be for an attractive price, but still. The lag in the replacement cycle, one of the last to have new Boeing 737-800's being delivered, last one next year and now 777-300's, new. Both planes have newer alternatives. Given that Schiphol is slot restricted and the minister has said that new slots may be awarded if the total noise and pollution isn't going to be increased. KLM is, of course, a huge user of Schiphol, so given these circomstaces, they might want to adapt and get the new shiny toys, not the old stuff, because you can bet on it that the new slots (and the current max. of 500.000) will be awarded through a system were noise and pollution will be in the equation.
At least they have modern 787's and now new E195-E2's on order.

Yes, that is all very true. They are also among the last to get rid of there 747's. Some are 29 years old.

Dutchy wrote:

tvh wrote:

ClipperMonsoon wrote:

If the 787 isn't exactly quiet, then the 350 must not be that quiet either, right?, may I suggest if the noise bothers you SO much, perhaps if you ask kindly, the cockpit crew can shutdown the engines just for you!, doesnt the 350 come with those rollback engines,? Have a nice day vSMUT

I am talking about the 777-300 ofcourse. The 787 is a quiet modern plane.

I agree with tvh, KLM is buying the old stuff, must be for an attractive price, but still. The lag in the replacement cycle, one of the last to have new Boeing 737-800's being delivered, last one next year and now 777-300's, new. Both planes have newer alternatives. Given that Schiphol is slot restricted and the minister has said that new slots may be awarded if the total noise and pollution isn't going to be increased. KLM is, of course, a huge user of Schiphol, so given these circomstaces, they might want to adapt and get the new shiny toys, not the old stuff, because you can bet on it that the new slots (and the current max. of 500.000) will be awarded through a system were noise and pollution will be in the equation.
At least they have modern 787's and now new E195-E2's on order.

Indeed there are newer alternatives for the 738 and 77W, however not available for the next couple of years.
I'm actually not sure how much quieter a 777X or A35K is compared to the 77W.

Dutchy wrote:

LifelinerOne wrote:

As far as I know from these rumours, both two new B777-300ERs are not directly ordered at Boeing, but will be leased.

Cheers!

Which lease company has new 77W on order?

I believe BOC has ordered 3 77W last year. Initially thought these were for BA, but these will be leased from Novus.

VSMUT wrote:

ClipperMonsoon wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

The 787 isn't exactly quiet.

If the 787 isn't exactly quiet, then the 350 must not be that quiet either, right?, may I suggest if the noise bothers you SO much, perhaps if you ask kindly, the cockpit crew can shutdown the engines just for you!, doesnt the 350 come with those rollback engines,? Have a nice day vSMUT

I have yet to try the A350 myself yet, but everyone I know who tried it say it is much more quiet. Same for the A380. But I have been on multiple A330s, and they are much more quiet than the 787.

On the inside the A380 is quiter than a 787. The A330 I found disappointingly noisy after all the praise I read on this forum, I liked the 787 a lot better.

But the noise relevant here is what can be heard outside the aircraft. Aircraft at AMS will be taxed by noise, CO2 and NOx emissions. The A330 doesn't score that well here, and has been placed in one of the more unfavorable categories.

frigatebird wrote:

On the inside the A380 is quiter than a 787. The A330 I found disappointingly noisy after all the praise I read on this forum, I liked the 787 a lot better.

But the noise relevant here is what can be heard outside the aircraft. Aircraft at AMS will be taxed by noise, CO2 and NOx emissions. The A330 doesn't score that well here, and has been placed in one of the more unfavorable categories.

I've never flown on a KLM A330, but from the outside I find them surprisingly noisy indeed. I live 100 km from AMS and the daily eastbound KL A330 flights, whether A332 or A333, are among the loudest planes passing over our house every day. Perhaps it's the GE engines; A330s from other operators, like Aeroflot or Turkish, or SN/Eurowings departing from DUS, don't stand out in such a way. I believe these are all RR-powered.

(but all this is of course nothing compared to the plane in my avatar )

VSMUT wrote:

tvh wrote:

I don't like that they to buy old technology, when they could have bought more quiet planes.

The 787 isn't exactly quiet.

VSMUT, sorry, do you actually fly on a regular basis, and on the same aircrafts other passengers fly on??
Because, let me tell you, if you think a 787 is NOT " exactly quiet", then you either fly some alien-tech craft I am not familiar with, or perhaps you should reconsider your travel priorities altogether and elect another transport mode...
Just sayin'...