oldannyboy
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Re: KLM Orders 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:14 pm

VSMUT wrote:
ClipperMonsoon wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

The 787 isn't exactly quiet.


If the 787 isn't exactly quiet, then the 350 must not be that quiet either, right?, may I suggest if the noise bothers you SO much, perhaps if you ask kindly, the cockpit crew can shutdown the engines just for you!, doesnt the 350 come with those rollback engines,? Have a nice day vSMUT


I have yet to try the A350 myself yet, but everyone I know who tried it say it is much more quiet. Same for the A380. But I have been on multiple A330s, and they are much more quiet than the 787.


No, they are not. Not at all. This means -no offence- that you are really not very familiar with the flying characteristics of the types you mention....
Indeed, the A380 is the one type that is NOTICEABLY quieter than the 787, and everything else. Then the A350 comes as a number 2, and that is MARGINALLY quieter that the 787, depending on where you are seated. Then, no.3 is the 787, that offers a VERY quiet cabin indeed. The A330 is louder in-cabin than the 787, expect whether perhaps you are comparing first-row area for the A330 (where you often get a very bothersome hiss) and last row/galley area for the 787.
 
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Re: KLM Orders 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:26 pm

tvh wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Yes, that is all very true. They are also among the last to get rid of there 747's. Some are 29 years old.

So two GE90-115Bs running at less than full thrust will be quieter than four 747-400 engines (GE CF6?) running close to full thrust, I would expect.

The twins do not need full thrust for flight as the plane needs to be able to take off on one engine, whereas the quads need to be able to take off on three engines.
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Re: KLM Orders 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:28 pm

VSMUT wrote:
tvh wrote:
I don't like that they to buy old technology, when they could have bought more quiet planes.


The 787 isn't exactly quiet.


What in the world are you talking about? The 787 of any model is hands down the quietest new generation widebody in it's class.

If you've ever been out on the ramp (or better yet, out on the airfield service road) and had the opportunity to compare the 787 and A350 on takeoff, the 787 is very noticeably the quieter of the two. Based on anecdotal comments from passengers and crew, A350 may be quieter in the cabin, but the 787 is quieter for the communities it serves. People who live and work near large airports notice the difference.

A similar noise reduction is easily noted when you compare takeoff noise levels generated by the quiet, new A220s and A320/321neos versus the noisy, older 737NG and MD80/90s and even the A320/321ceos.
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VSMUT
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Re: KLM Orders 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:46 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
tvh wrote:
I don't like that they to buy old technology, when they could have bought more quiet planes.


The 787 isn't exactly quiet.


VSMUT, sorry, do you actually fly on a regular basis, and on the same aircrafts other passengers fly on?


I am up to 9 trips on the 787 this year, 4 on 777s and 3 on A330s. You?
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: KLM Orders 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:58 pm

VSMUT wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

The 787 isn't exactly quiet.


VSMUT, sorry, do you actually fly on a regular basis, and on the same aircrafts other passengers fly on?


I am up to 9 trips on the 787 this year, 4 on 777s and 3 on A330s. You?


Lots of data on the internet shows the 787 as one of the quietest planes out today.. why continue arguing?
 
inkjet7
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Re: Rumour: KLM Orders 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:15 pm

Jetty wrote:
It seems likely all those changes were part of the same deal that predates the first delivery. The AFKL group made this purchase, all other planes KL bought/leased themselves.

KLM only talked to Boeing about the last six after the internal AF/KL swap of A350's and B787's was finalised. AF had no plans to up-gauge those.
 
Jetty
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Re: Rumour: KLM Orders 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:22 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
It seems likely all those changes were part of the same deal that predates the first delivery. The AFKL group made this purchase, all other planes KL bought/leased themselves.

KLM only talked to Boeing about the last six after the internal AF/KL swap of A350's and B787's was finalised. AF had no plans to up-gauge those.

Announcement was at the same time at least as per the KL source above, just before the 1st delivery of the -10. Not saying your timeline isn’t true for the internal decisions ofc, that would make sense.
 
Eikie
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Re: KLM Orders 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:28 pm

Spetsnaz55 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:

VSMUT, sorry, do you actually fly on a regular basis, and on the same aircrafts other passengers fly on?


I am up to 9 trips on the 787 this year, 4 on 777s and 3 on A330s. You?


Lots of data on the internet shows the 787 as one of the quietest planes out today.. why continue arguing?

Maybe there is a confusion about which noise they are taling about.
Noise for people on the ground,nor noise for people onboard.
Both don't have to be the lowest for the same plane.
 
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SQ22
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:41 pm

May I ask you to start a new thread in case you want to discuss the noise levels of 787? Thanks.
 
inkjet7
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Re: Rumour: KLM Orders 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:15 pm

Jetty wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
It seems likely all those changes were part of the same deal that predates the first delivery. The AFKL group made this purchase, all other planes KL bought/leased themselves.

KLM only talked to Boeing about the last six after the internal AF/KL swap of A350's and B787's was finalised. AF had no plans to up-gauge those.

Announcement was at the same time at least as per the KL source above, just before the 1st delivery of the -10. Not saying your timeline isn’t true for the internal decisions ofc, that would make sense.


https://www.klm.com/travel/nl_en/prepar ... 787_10.htm
It says "we welcomed our very 1st Boeing 787-10... and: In the coming years, we will add 8 Boeing 787-10’s to our fleet."
 
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Re: Rumour: KLM Orders 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:03 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:
KLM only talked to Boeing about the last six after the internal AF/KL swap of A350's and B787's was finalised. AF had no plans to up-gauge those.

Announcement was at the same time at least as per the KL source above, just before the 1st delivery of the -10. Not saying your timeline isn’t true for the internal decisions ofc, that would make sense.


https://www.klm.com/travel/nl_en/prepar ... 787_10.htm
It says "we welcomed our very 1st Boeing 787-10... and: In the coming years, we will add 8 Boeing 787-10’s to our fleet."

That’s just KLM being inconsistent. In this press release from just before the first delivery they already talk about 15 -10’s. https://nieuws.klm.com/de-air-france-kl ... andsvloot/ (In Dutch)
 
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:54 pm

Noise level debates are frustrating because (a) different people hear different timbres of noise very differently and (b) noise changes so much with just small changes in location.

In any event, I can't imagine that Schiphol will punish KLM, its largest airline and the hometown one, for operating 777-300ERs. (747s might be a different story, but they're mostly being phased out.)
 
inkjet7
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Re: Rumour: KLM Orders 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:02 pm

Jetty wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Announcement was at the same time at least as per the KL source above, just before the 1st delivery of the -10. Not saying your timeline isn’t true for the internal decisions ofc, that would make sense.


https://www.klm.com/travel/nl_en/prepar ... 787_10.htm
It says "we welcomed our very 1st Boeing 787-10... and: In the coming years, we will add 8 Boeing 787-10’s to our fleet."

That’s just KLM being inconsistent. In this press release from just before the first delivery they already talk about 15 -10’s. https://nieuws.klm.com/de-air-france-kl ... andsvloot/ (In Dutch)


... totale aantal Dreamliners op 28 (13 B787-9's en 15 B787's). No subtype specified.

Thee full press release: 'KLM presently operates 13 Boeing 787-9s and will receive its first Boeing 787-10 in June 2019. This fleet will further grow to a total of 21 Boeing 787s by the end of 2020 to which will be added the 6 Boeing 787s initially intended for Air France for a total of 27 aircraft.'.

No subtype specified. They couldn't do that yet.
 
IgorD
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:31 pm

Noise is hard to generalize, it depends indeed on where you seat and your own perception. In my experience, it also depends pretty much on the speed: a 77W flying at M.813 is very quiet, much quieter than anything else flying M.85 or faster. As you do not always have the speed data, comparing noise levels is even more challenging than the usual reference to the place where you seat.
 
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:48 am

Hi all, the thread is on KLM fleet order. Please stay on topic. Thanks!
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Jetty
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Re: Rumour: KLM Orders 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:11 am

inkjet7 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:

https://www.klm.com/travel/nl_en/prepar ... 787_10.htm
It says "we welcomed our very 1st Boeing 787-10... and: In the coming years, we will add 8 Boeing 787-10’s to our fleet."

That’s just KLM being inconsistent. In this press release from just before the first delivery they already talk about 15 -10’s. https://nieuws.klm.com/de-air-france-kl ... andsvloot/ (In Dutch)


... totale aantal Dreamliners op 28 (13 B787-9's en 15 B787's). No subtype specified.

Thee full press release: 'KLM presently operates 13 Boeing 787-9s and will receive its first Boeing 787-10 in June 2019. This fleet will further grow to a total of 21 Boeing 787s by the end of 2020 to which will be added the 6 Boeing 787s initially intended for Air France for a total of 27 aircraft.'.

No subtype specified. They couldn't do that yet.

It isn’t presented very straightforward indeed. But this makes it clear for any informed reader that the decision was already made at the time of writing:

KLM is dan ook blij de 787-vloot via deze ‘order swap’ uit te kunnen breiden. Deze extra Boeing 787-10's helpen KLM haar routenetwerk de komende jaren verder te ontwikkelen
 
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:18 am

seabosdca wrote:
In any event, I can't imagine that Schiphol will punish KLM, its largest airline and the hometown one, for operating 777-300ERs. (747s might be a different story, but they're mostly being phased out.)

:checkmark: You can expect Schiphol and the Dutch government to make objective rules that favor KLM. This applies to the transfer taxes at AMS being less than the departure/arrival taxes, the proposed national ticket tax that doesn’t differentiate on distance but excludes transfer passengers, the non-tradability of AMS slots etc...
 
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Re: KLM Orders 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:04 am

VSMUT wrote:
ClipperMonsoon wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

The 787 isn't exactly quiet.


If the 787 isn't exactly quiet, then the 350 must not be that quiet either, right?, may I suggest if the noise bothers you SO much, perhaps if you ask kindly, the cockpit crew can shutdown the engines just for you!, doesnt the 350 come with those rollback engines,? Have a nice day vSMUT


I have yet to try the A350 myself yet, but everyone I know who tried it say it is much more quiet. Same for the A380. But I have been on multiple A330s, and they are much more quiet than the 787.


I have flown the A359 (and the A35K, fo that matter) as well as the B788 with Qatar Airways. I have flown KLM's and AC B789s and can guarantee that they have roughly the same level of noise. ut they are quieter than the B744s (never flew on a B748) and the B77W (which I have flown with loads of airlines incl KLM and Qatar Airways - I add these both only so for effects of like for like comparison).

It does not botter me, although BAs B744 is really THAT noisy and I mean it.

Can also say that KLM's choice for extra B77Ws (if confirmed) is more related to performance and capabilities related to their needs rather than purely noise levels...
 
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:08 am

I don't care about noise.

What I do care about is getting on a big beautiful KLM 747 before they are gone. I enjoy the 787 and A350 but they aren't a 747. I try to avoid KL's 777s where possible as they are ten abreast. Their A330s and 787s are much more comfortable.

Price of progress I guess.
 
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:21 pm

Boeing has now converted all remaining 787s to the 787-10s on their order book, except for the last 787-9 which is still going to AF. Boeing also booked an unidentified order for 2 777-300ER last month, so it's not a full confirmation of this story, but it's very likely that it is KLM.
 
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:19 pm

Instead of fighting over which airplane ...rumbles/screams/growls better during takeoff and landing, you're fighting over which one is more quiet..What kind of aviation lovers are you? Oh the kids of today... :)
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
CWL757
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:48 pm

Could any of the 77Ws be ex Jet birds?
A319, A320, 738, 743, 744, 752, 772, 788, C150, E175, E190, F70, R22
 
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:26 pm

Ofcourse not, they’re getting brand new ones.
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:23 am

First KLM B787-10 TATL service to Houston on August 14th, 2019:

- 14 Aug 2019 AMS - IAH - AMS B78X PH-BKA
 
IWMBH
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:58 pm

Still no word about the -300ER order?
 
h1fl1er
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:16 pm

figure more and more 89s will convert to 78X as time goes on and the RW performance of the jet becomes disseminated.
 
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:30 am

AMSTERDAM, Sept. 2, 2019 /PRNewswire/ -- Boeing [NYSE: BA] and KLM Royal Dutch Airlines today announced that the carrier has ordered two more 777-300ER (Extended Range) airplanes as it continues to operate one of Europe's most modern and efficient fleet.

The order, valued at $751 million at current list prices, was previously attributed to an unidentified customer on Boeing's Orders & Deliveries website.

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2019-09-02 ... o-777-Jets
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CHRISBA35X
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:58 am

Crikey - $751m for two 77W. That's $375m each.
 
346fetish
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:59 am

Out of curiosity, does a -10 have the range for AMSLAX?
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IWMBH
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:01 pm

CHRISBA35X wrote:
Crikey - $751m for two 77W. That's $375m each.


Thats the list-price, im sure KL paid much less.
BA had to something to compensate after the 737 and 787 delays.
 
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:19 pm

IWMBH wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
Crikey - $751m for two 77W. That's $375m each.


Thats the list-price, im sure KL paid much less.
BA had to something to compensate after the 737 and 787 delays.


Well everybody knowns that is not what they will pay for it.

But it is now confirmed that KLM keeps buying old stuff for an airport that may not grow the number of flights because of noise.Very strange !!
 
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:26 pm

tvh wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
Crikey - $751m for two 77W. That's $375m each.


Thats the list-price, im sure KL paid much less.
BA had to something to compensate after the 737 and 787 delays.


Well everybody knowns that is not what they will pay for it.

But it is now confirmed that KLM keeps buying old stuff for an airport that may not grow the number of flights because of noise.Very strange !!


AMS will grow in the coming years, only not as much as KL and other airlines hope. But, the 773-ER will be an improvement in noise compared to the 747's they're replacing. Furthermore, the only other aircraft that has the capabilities of the 773 is the A350-1000 and this would introduce an entire new plane type into KL's fleet and the A350s' order-book is full for the coming years. It is not a strange order if you think about it.
 
inkjet7
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:10 pm

tvh wrote:
But it is now confirmed that KLM keeps buying old stuff for an airport that may not grow the number of flights because of noise.Very strange !!


The 77W's will replace 747's. Any other plane in this size category would have entirely different delivery dates. Early retirement of the 747 means less CO2 emissions.
 
inkjet7
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:12 pm

346fetish wrote:
Out of curiosity, does a -10 have the range for AMSLAX?

If you mean a 787-10 there is a different thread about this. This answer seems to be yes, if you go easy on heavy cargo.
 
tvh
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:15 pm

IWMBH wrote:
tvh wrote:
IWMBH wrote:

Thats the list-price, im sure KL paid much less.
BA had to something to compensate after the 737 and 787 delays.


Well everybody knowns that is not what they will pay for it.

But it is now confirmed that KLM keeps buying old stuff for an airport that may not grow the number of flights because of noise.Very strange !!


AMS will grow in the coming years, only not as much as KL and other airlines hope. But, the 773-ER will be an improvement in noise compared to the 747's they're replacing. Furthermore, the only other aircraft that has the capabilities of the 773 is the A350-1000 and this would introduce an entire new plane type into KL's fleet and the A350s' order-book is full for the coming years. It is not a strange order if you think about it.


Sure, it is the cheap solution. Just like the B737-800 they recenlty bought ( leased proably) All most only airline that has not yet chosen a succeser for the 737. No long term vision, but cheap in the short term.
 
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:22 pm

IWMBH wrote:
AMS will grow in the coming years, only not as much as KL and other airlines hope. But, the 773-ER will be an improvement in noise compared to the 747's they're replacing. Furthermore, the only other aircraft that has the capabilities of the 773 is the A350-1000 and this would introduce an entire new plane type into KL's fleet and the A350s' order-book is full for the coming years. It is not a strange order if you think about it.


It is nice that it is finally confirmed. The order itself is indeed quite logical. Just an add on for a sizeable fleet. The old 747's need to be replaced and the A350 order were handed over to Air France. But still they are old airframes considering they are end of the line machines so not up to date.

In related news, on of the political parties in our Parlement, wants slots to be awarded at Schiphol only for routes longer than 750km, so short-haul to be abandoned, people should take the train for this. This will free up slots for long haul routes, 90.000 of them. So this could be quite an interesting idea if in the end routes less than 500km would be gone and slots to be awarded for long haul routes, these 77W would be more then welcome.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
inkjet7
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:28 pm

Dutchy wrote:

In related news, on of the political parties in our Parlement, wants slots to be awarded at Schiphol only for routes longer than 750km, so short-haul to be abandoned, people should take the train for this. This will free up slots for long haul routes, 90.000 of them. So this could be quite an interesting idea if in the end routes less than 500km would be gone and slots to be awarded for long haul routes, these 77W would be more then welcome.


KLM's business model is based on getting passengers from all over Europe to feed the long haul network. Very likely KLM would not need 77W's at all if that would happen.
 
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:43 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

In related news, on of the political parties in our Parlement, wants slots to be awarded at Schiphol only for routes longer than 750km, so short-haul to be abandoned, people should take the train for this. This will free up slots for long haul routes, 90.000 of them. So this could be quite an interesting idea if in the end routes less than 500km would be gone and slots to be awarded for long haul routes, these 77W would be more then welcome.


KLM's business model is based on getting passengers from all over Europe to feed the long haul network. Very likely KLM would not need 77W's at all if that would happen.


Part of it yes. If the 500km range will be restricted, I think KLM will be ok. But I agree, it is the KLM business model, around 70% of all KLM passengers are connecting at Schiphol.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:58 pm

Dutchy wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

In related news, on of the political parties in our Parlement, wants slots to be awarded at Schiphol only for routes longer than 750km, so short-haul to be abandoned, people should take the train for this. This will free up slots for long haul routes, 90.000 of them. So this could be quite an interesting idea if in the end routes less than 500km would be gone and slots to be awarded for long haul routes, these 77W would be more then welcome.


KLM's business model is based on getting passengers from all over Europe to feed the long haul network. Very likely KLM would not need 77W's at all if that would happen.


Part of it yes. If the 500km range will be restricted, I think KLM will be ok. But I agree, it is the KLM business model, around 70% of all KLM passengers are connecting at Schiphol.


500 km includes Paris and London and many UK destinations. That is not ok for KLM. Brussels and Dusseldorf could easily go. Paris maybe with an improved train connection.
 
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Dutchy
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:03 pm

tvh wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:

KLM's business model is based on getting passengers from all over Europe to feed the long haul network. Very likely KLM would not need 77W's at all if that would happen.


Part of it yes. If the 500km range will be restricted, I think KLM will be ok. But I agree, it is the KLM business model, around 70% of all KLM passengers are connecting at Schiphol.


500 km includes Paris and London and many UK destinations. That is not ok for KLM. Brussels and Dusseldorf could easily go. Paris maybe with an improved train connection.


The UK connection is indeed hard and could stay if it were up to me. London, however, is easily done by train, did it myself last year. Center Amsterdam to London center it is as fast as a plane. So why fly?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
pabloeing
Posts: 587
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:00 pm

Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:18 pm

346fetish wrote:
Out of curiosity, does a -10 have the range for AMSLAX?

The KL 78X flight to SFO....LAX will be easy.
 
IWMBH
Posts: 340
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:25 pm

tvh wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
tvh wrote:

Well everybody knowns that is not what they will pay for it.

But it is now confirmed that KLM keeps buying old stuff for an airport that may not grow the number of flights because of noise.Very strange !!


AMS will grow in the coming years, only not as much as KL and other airlines hope. But, the 773-ER will be an improvement in noise compared to the 747's they're replacing. Furthermore, the only other aircraft that has the capabilities of the 773 is the A350-1000 and this would introduce an entire new plane type into KL's fleet and the A350s' order-book is full for the coming years. It is not a strange order if you think about it.


Sure, it is the cheap solution. Just like the B737-800 they recenlty bought ( leased proably) All most only airline that has not yet chosen a succeser for the 737. No long term vision, but cheap in the short term.


Why do you think KL has no long term vision? Some cheap last-of-the-line airframes can easily fit in a good long-term vision. Both their 737 and 777 fleets are still relatively young, and won’t need replacing anytime soon. So why go out of your way to buy 1 or 2 brand new planes when you can wait and buy in bulk a for a lower price? In my view that is an excellent long-term strategy to keep your costs low. But, time will tell if their strategy is the right one.
 
tvh
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:41 am

Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:49 pm

IWMBH wrote:
tvh wrote:
IWMBH wrote:

AMS will grow in the coming years, only not as much as KL and other airlines hope. But, the 773-ER will be an improvement in noise compared to the 747's they're replacing. Furthermore, the only other aircraft that has the capabilities of the 773 is the A350-1000 and this would introduce an entire new plane type into KL's fleet and the A350s' order-book is full for the coming years. It is not a strange order if you think about it.


Sure, it is the cheap solution. Just like the B737-800 they recenlty bought ( leased proably) All most only airline that has not yet chosen a succeser for the 737. No long term vision, but cheap in the short term.


Why do you think KL has no long term vision? Some cheap last-of-the-line airframes can easily fit in a good long-term vision. Both their 737 and 777 fleets are still relatively young, and won’t need replacing anytime soon. So why go out of your way to buy 1 or 2 brand new planes when you can wait and buy in bulk a for a lower price? In my view that is an excellent long-term strategy to keep your costs low. But, time will tell if their strategy is the right one.


Because they claim they need more landing rights at schiphol to grow and politics only want to give them if they bring down noise. These aircraft do not help with that. So cheap in the short term but no future.
They should have kept there order for the a350-900 and convert it to the 1000, make plans for replacing there oldest B737 en B777. Yes a know the B737 replacement is onder study. For a long time now. Maybe we have to blaim air france for slowing things down at KLM. Fact is that KLM has a somewhat old fleet for a noise sensitive airport. Not terrible old, but they could do better.
 
Jetty
Posts: 971
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:53 pm

IWMBH wrote:
But, time will tell if their strategy is the right one.

So far the answer is a definite yes. If they would have chosen to replace their narrow body fleet earlier they would have likely been stuck with a grounded fleet of monsters from Seattle.
 
tvh
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:41 am

Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:58 pm

Jetty wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
But, time will tell if their strategy is the right one.

So far the answer is a definite yes. If they would have chosen to replace their narrow body fleet earlier they would have likely been stuck with a grounded fleet of monsters from Seattle.


Very true, but I am afraid we have to call that just luck, for they could not have seen this one comming.
 
IWMBH
Posts: 340
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:04 pm

tvh wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
tvh wrote:

Sure, it is the cheap solution. Just like the B737-800 they recenlty bought ( leased proably) All most only airline that has not yet chosen a succeser for the 737. No long term vision, but cheap in the short term.


Why do you think KL has no long term vision? Some cheap last-of-the-line airframes can easily fit in a good long-term vision. Both their 737 and 777 fleets are still relatively young, and won’t need replacing anytime soon. So why go out of your way to buy 1 or 2 brand new planes when you can wait and buy in bulk a for a lower price? In my view that is an excellent long-term strategy to keep your costs low. But, time will tell if their strategy is the right one.


Because they claim they need more landing rights at schiphol to grow and politics only want to give them if they bring down noise. These aircraft do not help with that. So cheap in the short term but no future.
They should have kept there order for the a350-900 and convert it to the 1000, make plans for replacing there oldest B737 en B777. Yes a know the B737 replacement is onder study. For a long time now. Maybe we have to blaim air france for slowing things down at KLM. Fact is that KLM has a somewhat old fleet for a noise sensitive airport. Not terrible old, but they could do better.


Okay, I give you the 737, its replacement should've been known right now and it should've been ordered. But the 777 is still a good and modern plane and the A350 is only slightly more quiet. And if the cheap last-of-the-line planes are helping to fase out the 747 more quickly it is actually helping KLM with reducing their noise levels.

I think the -MAX order would've been placed if it wasn't for the groundings. But then again it would take a some time for these planes to be delivered.
 
tvh
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:41 am

Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:27 pm

IWMBH wrote:

Okay, I give you the 737, its replacement should've been known right now and it should've been ordered. But the 777 is still a good and modern plane and the A350 is only slightly more quiet. And if the cheap last-of-the-line planes are helping to fase out the 747 more quickly it is actually helping KLM with reducing their noise levels.

I think the -MAX order would've been placed if it wasn't for the groundings. But then again it would take a some time for these planes to be delivered.


The KLM has more than enough B781 on order to replace all there 747's. Ok, the B777 could speed up things a little as they are delivered very soon. But in the longer run, it is not clear where they will use two extra planes. Replace B772 or A330 who knowns .I think they are hoping for expansion,
 
IWMBH
Posts: 340
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:22 pm

tvh wrote:
IWMBH wrote:

Okay, I give you the 737, its replacement should've been known right now and it should've been ordered. But the 777 is still a good and modern plane and the A350 is only slightly more quiet. And if the cheap last-of-the-line planes are helping to fase out the 747 more quickly it is actually helping KLM with reducing their noise levels.

I think the -MAX order would've been placed if it wasn't for the groundings. But then again it would take a some time for these planes to be delivered.


The KLM has more than enough B781 on order to replace all there 747's. Ok, the B777 could speed up things a little as they are delivered very soon. But in the longer run, it is not clear where they will use two extra planes. Replace B772 or A330 who knowns .I think they are hoping for expansion,


The 781 isn’t isn’t large enough to replace the full-pax 747-400’s. I think the A350 will replace the 772’s when they’re due for replacement and maybe the A333’s. I think some extra 787’s will replace the A332’s.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18099
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:31 pm

IWMBH wrote:
tvh wrote:
IWMBH wrote:

Okay, I give you the 737, its replacement should've been known right now and it should've been ordered. But the 777 is still a good and modern plane and the A350 is only slightly more quiet. And if the cheap last-of-the-line planes are helping to fase out the 747 more quickly it is actually helping KLM with reducing their noise levels.

I think the -MAX order would've been placed if it wasn't for the groundings. But then again it would take a some time for these planes to be delivered.


The KLM has more than enough B781 on order to replace all there 747's. Ok, the B777 could speed up things a little as they are delivered very soon. But in the longer run, it is not clear where they will use two extra planes. Replace B772 or A330 who knowns .I think they are hoping for expansion,


The 781 isn’t isn’t large enough to replace the full-pax 747-400’s. I think the A350 will replace the 772’s when they’re due for replacement and maybe the A333’s. I think some extra 787’s will replace the A332’s.

Why does a.nwt obsess over 1 for 1 replacement. The 787-10 is an incredible combi on mud range missions. If KL does fewer low margin connections, bonus to profits. If KL replaces with 10x or more per week, bonus to yield and thus profits. Yes AMS is impacted. If a RJ or narrowbody slot pair isn't sacrificed for long haul opportunities, fire the yield management team.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
thaiflyer
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:55 pm

Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:31 pm

Dutchy wrote:

In related news, on of the political parties in our Parlement, wants slots to be awarded at Schiphol only for routes longer than 750km, so short-haul to be abandoned, people should take the train for this. This will free up slots for long haul routes, 90.000 of them. So this could be quite an interesting idea if in the end routes less than 500km would be gone and slots to be awarded for long haul routes, these 77W would be more then welcome.


Call me skeptical but i don't think that will ever happen and specially not for the 750 km range.
The government knows very well that this would hurt KLM and it would be political suicide.

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