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Momo1435
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Re: Confirmed: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:47 pm

There are only 3 full pax 747s to be replaced, these 2 extra 77Ws will cover that. The 77W fleet at KLM is already larger then their 747 full pax has ever been. Half of the 787-10s on order will replace the remaining 747Ms, which is a significant capacity increase. It's not yet clear what the remainder of the 787-10s will replace. I don't think it's likely they will come in just for growth as there is almost no room at AMS. But as the 787-10 will be the biggest plane in the fleet after the 77W it will always mean extra capacity.

And the logic behind the 77W is just to have a quick replacement of the last 747-400s quickly without losing capacity and without having to add a new type to the fleet. When it's decided what to replace the 77Es and the A330s it will a moment to add a new type as a larger will be needed. But if the 787-10 is going have a performance upgrade as was rumored when the Air New Zealand order was announced it will also be a very interesting replacement for the 77E. If it isn't already right now, maybe together with more 787-9s. It was also rumored that they are taking a good look at the 777X for the 77E replacement, which would mean an even bigger upward capacity jump.
 
Jetty
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:00 pm

thaiflyer wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

In related news, on of the political parties in our Parlement, wants slots to be awarded at Schiphol only for routes longer than 750km, so short-haul to be abandoned, people should take the train for this. This will free up slots for long haul routes, 90.000 of them. So this could be quite an interesting idea if in the end routes less than 500km would be gone and slots to be awarded for long haul routes, these 77W would be more then welcome.


Call me skeptical but i don't think that will ever happen and specially not for the 750 km range.
The government knows very well that this would hurt KLM and it would be political suicide.

:checkmark:
If anything they'll make it 350km thus banning just Norwich, Brussels, Luxembourg, Bremen and Hannover. All indeed very doable by train.
 
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PHBVF
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:31 pm

IWMBH wrote:
tvh wrote:
IWMBH wrote:

Okay, I give you the 737, its replacement should've been known right now and it should've been ordered. But the 777 is still a good and modern plane and the A350 is only slightly more quiet. And if the cheap last-of-the-line planes are helping to fase out the 747 more quickly it is actually helping KLM with reducing their noise levels.

I think the -MAX order would've been placed if it wasn't for the groundings. But then again it would take a some time for these planes to be delivered.


The KLM has more than enough B781 on order to replace all there 747's. Ok, the B777 could speed up things a little as they are delivered very soon. But in the longer run, it is not clear where they will use two extra planes. Replace B772 or A330 who knowns .I think they are hoping for expansion,


The 781 isn’t isn’t large enough to replace the full-pax 747-400’s. I think the A350 will replace the 772’s when they’re due for replacement and maybe the A333’s. I think some extra 787’s will replace the A332’s.


The A350's are not coming to KLM, confirmed recently. They took AF's remaining 789 orders and AF their A350's.
This was in a push to streamline the long haul fleet around the 777/787, which are operationally interchangeable, saving lots of money (irrespective of fuel savings still).
With that in mind I do not think it is likely they will order A350's again either.

I'd say this is indeed for 744 replacement, particularly where the 781's capacity leaves something to be desired (CUR, PBM, MEX)

Also the Dutch government is indeed complaining about noise and emissions, however there is no link in their decision making between how many movements there are and what aircraft types are flown. E.g. at the current limit there's nothing stopping 500000 DC-8's flight movements from Schiphol (hypothetically ofcourse)

EDIT: Also I think the "perimeter" rule 250/500/750 km does not apply to existing flights (at least not off the bat)
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IWMBH
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:45 pm

PHBVF wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
tvh wrote:

The KLM has more than enough B781 on order to replace all there 747's. Ok, the B777 could speed up things a little as they are delivered very soon. But in the longer run, it is not clear where they will use two extra planes. Replace B772 or A330 who knowns .I think they are hoping for expansion,


The 781 isn’t isn’t large enough to replace the full-pax 747-400’s. I think the A350 will replace the 772’s when they’re due for replacement and maybe the A333’s. I think some extra 787’s will replace the A332’s.


The A350's are not coming to KLM, confirmed recently. They took AF's remaining 789 orders and AF their A350's.
This was in a push to streamline the long haul fleet around the 777/787, which are operationally interchangeable, saving lots of money (irrespective of fuel savings still).
With that in mind I do not think it is likely they will order A350's again either.

I'd say this is indeed for 744 replacement, particularly where the 781's capacity leaves something to be desired (CUR, PBM, MEX)

Also the Dutch government is indeed complaining about noise and emissions, however there is no link in their decision making between how many movements there are and what aircraft types are flown. E.g. at the current limit there's nothing stopping 500000 DC-8's flight movements from Schiphol (hypothetically ofcourse)


I know about the A350/787 swap between AF and KL, but with the 772's growing older they eventually need a replacement and unless the 787-10ER becomes a reality they going to need something else and the only plane I can think of is the A350. But, that is a problem for another day.

Personally, I don't get the Dutch government (Im Dutch myself). I think it's a good thing to urge the carriers at Schiphol to use the most economical planes that are available but air traffic should be able to grow in the future. If I watch the news I seriously doubt if some politicians even understand how air travel works and that limiting slots at AMS doesn't necessarily means an improvement in the battle against global warming. Don't they get that people will just use another airport in Belgium or Germany? I would like to see more slots coming available at Schiphol and give economical incentives to airlines to use aircraft that burn less fuel to make a real difference. But that is an entirely different discussion.
 
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PW100
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:28 pm

lightsaber wrote:
. . .
Why does a.nwt obsess over 1 for 1 replacement. The 787-10 is an incredible combi on mud range missions. If KL does fewer low margin connections, bonus to profits. If KL replaces with 10x or more per week, bonus to yield and thus profits. Yes AMS is impacted. If a RJ or narrowbody slot pair isn't sacrificed for long haul opportunities, fire the yield management team.

Lightsaber


The yield management team is actually doing a pretty good job (just ask around in Paris, if you don't mind, thank you very much:-) ).

The issue is not so much direct yields, the issue is that there are three big long haul banks (and two smaller ones), where capacity needs to be balanced in more than one way. It isn't as simple as adding 3 or 7 weekly frequencies. Which bank will get the additional frequency? How is that bank in yield management, both in terms of economy vs business, and in terms of direct pax and connecting pax.? How would it fit, timing wise and compass wise in feeder flights? Do all feeder flights feed in to the other bank? How do time zones come into play for these long haul flights, and how would that effect yields?

And then there is the thing of gate availability. Would a widebody gate be available for the additional frequencies, or would that involve sacrificing two 737 gates? Which 737 flights would then need to be moved to bus connection? And how would that effect their yields?
Using existing designated wide-body gates (E and F) to the max, by employing the largest aircraft available (=77W) does wonders to gate utilization (and thus yield management).

And repeat all of that in terms of loss to the main bank, which all needs to be balanced against the additional frequencies in the "other" bank.

I can assure you, that this is just he tip of the ice berg, for KLM planning and yield department.

And not to mention, such a heavy discount (as in around 70% for brand new 77W's vs brand new A350/787-10) doesn’t hurt the bottom line either . . .
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kimimm19
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:40 pm

IWMBH wrote:
PHBVF wrote:
IWMBH wrote:

The 781 isn’t isn’t large enough to replace the full-pax 747-400’s. I think the A350 will replace the 772’s when they’re due for replacement and maybe the A333’s. I think some extra 787’s will replace the A332’s.


The A350's are not coming to KLM, confirmed recently. They took AF's remaining 789 orders and AF their A350's.
This was in a push to streamline the long haul fleet around the 777/787, which are operationally interchangeable, saving lots of money (irrespective of fuel savings still).
With that in mind I do not think it is likely they will order A350's again either.

I'd say this is indeed for 744 replacement, particularly where the 781's capacity leaves something to be desired (CUR, PBM, MEX)

Also the Dutch government is indeed complaining about noise and emissions, however there is no link in their decision making between how many movements there are and what aircraft types are flown. E.g. at the current limit there's nothing stopping 500000 DC-8's flight movements from Schiphol (hypothetically ofcourse)


I know about the A350/787 swap between AF and KL, but with the 772's growing older they eventually need a replacement and unless the 787-10ER becomes a reality they going to need something else and the only plane I can think of is the A350. But, that is a problem for another day.

Personally, I don't get the Dutch government (Im Dutch myself). I think it's a good thing to urge the carriers at Schiphol to use the most economical planes that are available but air traffic should be able to grow in the future. If I watch the news I seriously doubt if some politicians even understand how air travel works and that limiting slots at AMS doesn't necessarily means an improvement in the battle against global warming. Don't they get that people will just use another airport in Belgium or Germany? I would like to see more slots coming available at Schiphol and give economical incentives to airlines to use aircraft that burn less fuel to make a real difference. But that is an entirely different discussion.


Quite a few airlines are using the 789 as 772ER replacements..

Anything that the 781 can handle in range can be a slight upgauge for growth, and where you need range you can use the 789 and easily get within a comparable capacity to current 772ERs
 
FrancisBegbie
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:43 pm

thaiflyer wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

In related news, on of the political parties in our Parlement, wants slots to be awarded at Schiphol only for routes longer than 750km, so short-haul to be abandoned, people should take the train for this. This will free up slots for long haul routes, 90.000 of them. So this could be quite an interesting idea if in the end routes less than 500km would be gone and slots to be awarded for long haul routes, these 77W would be more then welcome.


Call me skeptical but i don't think that will ever happen and specially not for the 750 km range.
The government knows very well that this would hurt KLM and it would be political suicide.


It was proposed by someone from the Green Party, into which the former communist party has merged. I think history has shown often enough that making idiotic economic decisions is something communists are very capable of. That being said, the Green Party is in the opposition and the ruling parties know better.
 
EddieDude
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Re: Confirmed: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:56 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
Half of the 787-10s on order will replace the remaining 747Ms, which is a significant capacity increase.

If I am not mistaken, the KL 789s and the KL 74Ms have the exact same number of total seats (or something very, very close to that). I always thought the 789s would sort of replace the 74Ms (and yes, as you mention, the 77Ws, which are quite dense at KL, will be the full-pax 744 replacements). I have read several rumors on this site that once the 74Ms leave the fleet, MEX (a 74M destination) will certainly get the 789. Not sure about the other 74M destinations.

Momo1435 wrote:
I don't think it's likely they will come in just for growth as there is almost no room at AMS. But as the 787-10 will be the biggest plane in the fleet after the 77W it will always mean extra capacity.

It is smart for KL to upgauge considering the situation at AMS. I am certain there are a lot of A333 (292 seats) and 77E (316 seats) routes to North America or elsewhere, where the 78X (344 seats) can be a fantastic replacement.
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IWMBH
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:15 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
PHBVF wrote:

The A350's are not coming to KLM, confirmed recently. They took AF's remaining 789 orders and AF their A350's.
This was in a push to streamline the long haul fleet around the 777/787, which are operationally interchangeable, saving lots of money (irrespective of fuel savings still).
With that in mind I do not think it is likely they will order A350's again either.

I'd say this is indeed for 744 replacement, particularly where the 781's capacity leaves something to be desired (CUR, PBM, MEX)

Also the Dutch government is indeed complaining about noise and emissions, however there is no link in their decision making between how many movements there are and what aircraft types are flown. E.g. at the current limit there's nothing stopping 500000 DC-8's flight movements from Schiphol (hypothetically ofcourse)


I know about the A350/787 swap between AF and KL, but with the 772's growing older they eventually need a replacement and unless the 787-10ER becomes a reality they going to need something else and the only plane I can think of is the A350. But, that is a problem for another day.

Personally, I don't get the Dutch government (Im Dutch myself). I think it's a good thing to urge the carriers at Schiphol to use the most economical planes that are available but air traffic should be able to grow in the future. If I watch the news I seriously doubt if some politicians even understand how air travel works and that limiting slots at AMS doesn't necessarily means an improvement in the battle against global warming. Don't they get that people will just use another airport in Belgium or Germany? I would like to see more slots coming available at Schiphol and give economical incentives to airlines to use aircraft that burn less fuel to make a real difference. But that is an entirely different discussion.


Quite a few airlines are using the 789 as 772ER replacements..

Anything that the 781 can handle in range can be a slight upgauge for growth, and where you need range you can use the 789 and easily get within a comparable capacity to current 772ERs


I agree that the 789 makes sense for a lot of airlines, but with a airport as restricted as AMS KL wants planes with more seats, not less. But, the 772’s have plenty of life left in them, and I suspect BA can get a some more range out of the 781 in te future.
 
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:10 pm

Jetty wrote:
thaiflyer wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

In related news, on of the political parties in our Parlement, wants slots to be awarded at Schiphol only for routes longer than 750km, so short-haul to be abandoned, people should take the train for this. This will free up slots for long haul routes, 90.000 of them. So this could be quite an interesting idea if in the end routes less than 500km would be gone and slots to be awarded for long haul routes, these 77W would be more then welcome.


Call me skeptical but i don't think that will ever happen and specially not for the 750 km range.
The government knows very well that this would hurt KLM and it would be political suicide.

:checkmark:
If anything they'll make it 350km thus banning just Norwich, Brussels, Luxembourg, Bremen and Hannover. All indeed very doable by train.


Norwich by train ?? luckely it is not a very important destination. But klm has a maintenace base there.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Confirmed: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:40 am

Momo1435 wrote:
There are only 3 full pax 747s to be replaced, these 2 extra 77Ws will cover that. The 77W fleet at KLM is already larger then their 747 full pax has ever been. Half of the 787-10s on order will replace the remaining 747Ms, which is a significant capacity increase. It's not yet clear what the remainder of the 787-10s will replace. I don't think it's likely they will come in just for growth as there is almost no room at AMS. But as the 787-10 will be the biggest plane in the fleet after the 77W it will always mean extra capacity.

And the logic behind the 77W is just to have a quick replacement of the last 747-400s quickly without losing capacity and without having to add a new type to the fleet. When it's decided what to replace the 77Es and the A330s it will a moment to add a new type as a larger will be needed. But if the 787-10 is going have a performance upgrade as was rumored when the Air New Zealand order was announced it will also be a very interesting replacement for the 77E. If it isn't already right now, maybe together with more 787-9s. It was also rumored that they are taking a good look at the 777X for the 77E replacement, which would mean an even bigger upward capacity jump.


IIRC the split is 5 full pax 747s and 5 combis. I did expect additional 77W's for KL therefore this order is no real surprise, except I thought KL would get these new 77W from a lessor. Perhaps KL intended the new 787-10s to cover the remaining 747 replacement, and if you count the seats indeed it did (10x 344 seat 787-10s = 3440 seats, 5x 408 + 5x 268 = 3380 seats for the 10 remaining 747s). But apparently KL noticed would be short of 400+ seat aircraft then.

KL will receive 16 new WB aircraft between now and Q2 2022, 14x 78X and 2x 77W. Difficult to believe Kl can expand with 6 additional WB aircraft, so I guess the A333 will leave when the leases expire (and maybe the single A332 on operational lease).

I believe the 787-10 could replace most 77E missions too. But I don't think KL will decide on a 77E/A332 replacement very soon, probably still many years away.
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FrancisBegbie
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Re: Confirmed: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:00 pm

frigatebird wrote:

KL will receive 16 new WB aircraft between now and Q2 2022, 14x 78X and 2x 77W. Difficult to believe Kl can expand with 6 additional WB aircraft, so I guess the A333 will leave when the leases expire (and maybe the single A332 on operational lease)


That would also require a 10+ aircraft increase at AF, wouldn’t it? (Considering the ‘fixed expansion formula’ between AF and KL). I am not aware of AF’s expansion/replacement plans but it sounds ambitious to me.
 
A388
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Re: Confirmed: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:04 pm

What I see happening so far, KL is replacing their 747's full pax versions with both the 787-10 and 77W. We will get their 787-10 here in CUR and PBM will get the 77W.

A388
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Confirmed: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:30 pm

FrancisBegbie wrote:
frigatebird wrote:

KL will receive 16 new WB aircraft between now and Q2 2022, 14x 78X and 2x 77W. Difficult to believe Kl can expand with 6 additional WB aircraft, so I guess the A333 will leave when the leases expire (and maybe the single A332 on operational lease)


That would also require a 10+ aircraft increase at AF, wouldn’t it? (Considering the ‘fixed expansion formula’ between AF and KL). I am not aware of AF’s expansion/replacement plans but it sounds ambitious to me.

AF will receive one more 787-9, 28x A350-900, and are studying an order for 9 more A339/A359/789 sized aircraft to compensate for decommissioning their A380 fleet.
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FrancisBegbie
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Re: Confirmed: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:33 pm

^ Outgoing are the A380s, the remaining 340s; also a number of 772s? Otherwise they might grow enough to indeed allow for the expansion at KL...?
 
inkjet7
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Re: Confirmed: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:48 pm

frigatebird wrote:

AF will receive one more 787-9, 28x A350-900, and are studying an order for 9 more A339/A359/789 sized aircraft to compensate for decommissioning their A380 fleet.


Plenty of options to choose from. AF/KL had 25 orders and 35 options for A350 as well as 25 orders and 25 options for 787. So far, they got none of the A350 and 11 of the 787 delivered (6 AF 5 KL). The other 12 787's (3AF 9 KL) are leased from Aercap. I believe AF will get 28 A350's so 32 options left, if all of those are from their own orders. KL will get 13 more 787's (plus one leased), AF one more 787. So all 25 options seem to be open.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Confirmed: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:55 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
frigatebird wrote:

AF will receive one more 787-9, 28x A350-900, and are studying an order for 9 more A339/A359/789 sized aircraft to compensate for decommissioning their A380 fleet.


Plenty of options to choose from. AF/KL had 25 orders and 35 options for A350 as well as 25 orders and 25 options for 787. So far, they got none of the A350 and 11 of the 787 delivered (6 AF 5 KL). The other 12 787's (3AF 9 KL) are leased from Aercap. I believe AF will get 28 A350's so 32 options left, if all of those are from their own orders. KL will get 13 more 787's (plus one leased), AF one more 787. So all 25 options seem to be open.

I do even think AF still has 35 options for A350s. The 3 additional A350s aren’t converted options, these were conversions from 2 A380 to be delivered (AF originally had 12 on order but just 10 delivered).
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Dave05
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Re: Confirmed: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:16 am

The newly ordered 777w will seats 408 passengers replacing the 408 seats 747... Where can the new 777w be deployed to with 408 seats? Will it make the trip from AMs to KUL?
 
FrancisBegbie
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Re: Confirmed: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:33 am

Dave05 wrote:
The newly ordered 777w will seats 408 passengers replacing the 408 seats 747... Where can the new 777w be deployed to with 408 seats? Will it make the trip from AMs to KUL?


I’d look into the places now still getting the full pax 747. Eg CUR now gets 747s (almost?) daily, and some 330s. They never get a 777. That’s a prime destination for a daily 77W.

JFK gets every plane on the KL menu and it’s a relatively short hop, so it could be possible to squeeze it in between 77W’s longer scheduled flights.
 
Flanker7
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Re: Confirmed: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:41 am

Dave05 wrote:
The newly ordered 777w will seats 408 passengers replacing the 408 seats 747... Where can the new 777w be deployed to with 408 seats? Will it make the trip from AMs to KUL?

The 777-300 is deployed all over the place. You often see a mix of 777-200 and 300 on most routes. KUL sees the 300 quite often.
Flying blue only if possible
 
bhxalex
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:17 pm

Jetty wrote:
thaiflyer wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

In related news, on of the political parties in our Parlement, wants slots to be awarded at Schiphol only for routes longer than 750km, so short-haul to be abandoned, people should take the train for this. This will free up slots for long haul routes, 90.000 of them. So this could be quite an interesting idea if in the end routes less than 500km would be gone and slots to be awarded for long haul routes, these 77W would be more then welcome.


Call me skeptical but i don't think that will ever happen and specially not for the 750 km range.
The government knows very well that this would hurt KLM and it would be political suicide.

:checkmark:
If anything they'll make it 350km thus banning just Norwich, Brussels, Luxembourg, Bremen and Hannover. All indeed very doable by train.


Norwich to Amsterdam via train.... 'very doable'. Explain?
 
inkjet7
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Re: Confirmed: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:22 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
There are only 3 full pax 747s to be replaced, these 2 extra 77Ws will cover that.


For the record: they had seven, five are left. And they received 4 new 77W's since the phase-out of the 747 started. 6 77W's can operate more flights than 7 744's due to different mx requirements.
 
EddieDude
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Re: Confirmed: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:49 pm

frigatebird wrote:
AF will receive one more 787-9, 28x A350-900, and are studying an order for 9 more A339/A359/789 sized aircraft to compensate for decommissioning their A380 fleet.

Any chance the A350-1000 might also be under consideration? I know AF has complained about the cost of the A350 family, but unless they have many 77Ws to shuffle around and eventually send to the current A380 destinations, the other planes mentioned could end up being a bit small, no? On the other hand, maybe AF is considering improvements to its yields by slightly reducing the total number of seats offered on certain long haul routes...
Upcoming flights:
May: AM MEX-CUN 73H (Y), AM CUN-MEX 73W (Y).
August: KL MEX-AMS 74M (J), KQ AMS-NBO 788 (J).
 
kimimm19
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Re: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s (unconfirmed) and Converts 789s to 10s (confirmed)

Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:16 pm

bhxalex wrote:
Jetty wrote:
thaiflyer wrote:

Call me skeptical but i don't think that will ever happen and specially not for the 750 km range.
The government knows very well that this would hurt KLM and it would be political suicide.

:checkmark:
If anything they'll make it 350km thus banning just Norwich, Brussels, Luxembourg, Bremen and Hannover. All indeed very doable by train.


Norwich to Amsterdam via train.... 'very doable'. Explain?


Yeah, pretty ridiculous comment. Trains don't go as the crow flies.

You'd have to take a 4 hour train from Amsterdam to London Kings Cross and then one up to Norwich which would be another couple of hours.

Add to that, the Eurostar fares are always more expensive than flying from London.
 
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747classic
Posts: 2673
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

Re: Confirmed: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:03 pm

Dave05 wrote:
The newly ordered 777w will seats 408 passengers replacing the 408 seats 747... Where can the new 777w be deployed to with 408 seats? Will it make the trip from AMs to KUL?


From a passenger perspective : KLM's 747 is a far superior product above the 777-300ER, both with 408 seats.
Especially the 10 abreast Y class in the 777-300ER is awfull.
Also the Business class in the 777-300ER feels crowdy. In the 747 you even have a choice : your own "private 737" at the upperdeck or the spacious 747 fwd comparment with only a few seats.

With an equal IFE system I would always prefer KLM's 747 product above the 777 tube feeling.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
FB330
Topic Author
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:46 pm

Re: Confirmed: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:46 pm

Thought I would share a quote from KLM director, Boet Kreiken, in the latest Airliner World publication.

“We still have our A330s which are good aircraft, but we are moving into a full 777 and 787 intercontinental fleet.”

He goes onto confirm that the 787-10 is the new flagship for the airline.

My take on this is that the recent orders will not only replace the 747s but also the 330s and that the A350 may well be absent in the next order tranche for KLM.
 
IWMBH
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: Confirmed: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:00 pm

FB330 wrote:
Thought I would share a quote from KLM director, Boet Kreiken, in the latest Airliner World publication.

“We still have our A330s which are good aircraft, but we are moving into a full 777 and 787 intercontinental fleet.”

He goes onto confirm that the 787-10 is the new flagship for the airline.

My take on this is that the recent orders will not only replace the 747s but also the 330s and that the A350 may well be absent in the next order tranche for KLM.


The A350 order is swapped with the 787 order of Air France, so they aren’t coming tot KL anytime soon. However, I think it’s interesting that they are speaking openly about replacing the A330’s.
 
inkjet7
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:32 am

Re: Confirmed: KLM Orders/Leasing 2 x 777-300s and Converts 789s to 10s

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:09 pm

FB330 wrote:
Thought I would share a quote from KLM director, Boet Kreiken, in the latest Airliner World publication.

“We still have our A330s which are good aircraft, but we are moving into a full 777 and 787 intercontinental fleet.”

He goes onto confirm that the 787-10 is the new flagship for the airline.


We could see that one coming I guess. 31 777, 28 787 and just 13 a330 in what? two years? They operate the 777 and 787 as one fleet. They could have done that with the A350 and A330 but they are committed now.
What I don't get is why the 787 is the new flagship if they'll have 16 77W's.

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