https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49270120

The British Airline Pilots Association (Balpa) has announced two walkouts, one from 22-23 August, while the second strike will be from 2-4 September.
The union said 72% of its members at the company had taken part in the ballot with 80% of those supporting strike action.

So, 80% of the 72% BALPA pilots who voted, that's 57.6% of the BALPA pilots for the strike.
What's the representation of BALPA among WN pilots? I guess, like usual, a minority will disrupt a whole company; good job...

WayexTDI wrote:

So, 80% of the 72% BALPA pilots who voted, that's 57.6% of the BALPA pilots for the strike.
What's the representation of BALPA among WN pilots? I guess, like usual, a minority will disrupt a whole company; good job...

Given, until recently, FR refused to allow its crew union representation (which was only won through strike action in the face of threats from management) it's all well and good calling them a minority but there's more to it than that. Although, 57.6% is actually a majority

Again, why are people so quick to call out the unions for wanting fair T&Cs to enable and enhance a safe operation rather than blaming the company management for terrible T&Cs and rock bottom morale? Are you aware of what T&Cs are like at Ryanair?

WayexTDI wrote:

So, 80% of the 72% BALPA pilots who voted, that's 57.6% of the BALPA pilots for the strike.
What's the representation of BALPA among WN pilots? I guess, like usual, a minority will disrupt a whole company; good job...

People who don't vote forego their right to complain. Welcome to democratic institutions.

BA777FO wrote:

WayexTDI wrote:

Are you aware of what T&Cs are like at Ryanair?

What's wrong in your view with the T&C's at Ryanair? The pay is quite good, especially when compared to some other airlines. The roster is a very stable 5/4 roster, no night stops, no night flights, pilot recurrent and command trainings are of high standards. The only things wrong in my view are the contracting practices (instead of direct employment) and the deliberately giving you not the base you want in various cases.

BasilFawlty wrote:

BA777FO wrote:

WayexTDI wrote:

Are you aware of what T&Cs are like at Ryanair?

What's wrong in your view with the T&C's at Ryanair? The pay is quite good, especially when compared to some other airlines. The roster is a very stable 5/4 roster, no night stops, no night flights, pilot recurrent and command trainings are of high standards. The only things wrong in my view are the contracting practices (instead of direct employment) and the deliberately giving you not the base you want in various cases.

You're mostly right, in my opinion. Although 5/4 roster is great at planning into the future, more so than getting your roster just 20 days before the month end, but it's terrible if the one day you absolutely need off is in the middle of that 5 day block. On pay I agree, many skippers are Ryanair are paid more than A320 skippers at BA. But, the Brookfield contract is horrific (the contracting out aspects you mention) should be outlawed. We could talk about how bad that is all day long. Pay and decent training standards don't make up for that. Although as a pan-European airline I've heard of some interesting culture clashes there! The constant threats, "performance management" on things like fuel carriage, sick pay, maternity pay, pension provision, it's a long list and things need to change.

Ryanair pilots, as with pilots at just about every airline, are a professional bunch with a lot of self-pride. However, you can only push them so far. The past summer, and since, shows that they've reached their limit.

BA777FO wrote:

WayexTDI wrote:

So, 80% of the 72% BALPA pilots who voted, that's 57.6% of the BALPA pilots for the strike.
What's the representation of BALPA among WN pilots? I guess, like usual, a minority will disrupt a whole company; good job...

Given, until recently, FR refused to allow its crew union representation (which was only won through strike action in the face of threats from management) it's all well and good calling them a minority but there's more to it than that. Although, 57.6% is actually a majority

Again, why are people so quick to call out the unions for wanting fair T&Cs to enable and enhance a safe operation rather than blaming the company management for terrible T&Cs and rock bottom morale? Are you aware of what T&Cs are like at Ryanair?

I do understand and respect that the pilots want to improve their work conditions but why is this always done over the backs of the normal costumers who are no part in the conflict.
I'm booked on BA and they are also threatening with strike, as i have to fly for business this is something i can do without.
And please don't start that it is for the higher goal or something similar and that the costumers can rebook or fly at a later date as this is not always possible or practical.
This does not create any sympathy from the costumers towards the pilots.
For sure their are other ways to support your cause which does not involve harassing the poor costumers.

thaiflyer wrote:

I do understand and respect that the pilots want to improve their work conditions but why is this always done over the backs of the normal costumers who are no part in the conflict.

It's called leverage - it's the only thing that will get management's attention. Just sitting around a table talking has failed to achieve enough. I don't blame the pilots in the slightest, and in their position, I'd probably do the same. Unlike the dark days of unions in the 1970s, these days going on strike really is a last resort.

And I say this as someone who will be directly affected by the September strike if it goes ahead.

thaiflyer wrote:

I do understand and respect that the pilots want to improve their work conditions but why is this always done over the backs of the normal costumers who are no part in the conflict.
I'm booked on BA and they are also threatening with strike, as i have to fly for business this is something i can do without.
And please don't start that it is for the higher goal or something similar and that the costumers can rebook or fly at a later date as this is not always possible or practical.
This does not create any sympathy from the costumers towards the pilots.
For sure their are other ways to support your cause which does not involve harassing the poor costumers.

There is absolutely nobody that wants to strike. Being part of industrial action is frustrating, damaging to your wellbeing and potentially can result in being blacklisted by your employer (some companies doing that in more covert ways than others). Nobody would put themselves through that for a few unpaid days off. Where it inevitably stems from is poor industrial relations - a company gets the union that they deserve. Nobody starts off being militant, instead a combination of factors usually results in a pressure cooker where the employer and the union eventually get to a point where they can’t even be in the room together.

BA is a great example of this, particularly with the cabin crew unions. You treat people badly, you take things away from them (or don’t give it to them to start with), you vilify them with other work groups and then the general public - and then just watch the stand off happen. Unions don’t mean strikes and bad industrial relations.

Plenty of big companies have far reaching and facilitative agreements with their unions and are still making bumper profits.

BA777FO wrote:

WayexTDI wrote:

So, 80% of the 72% BALPA pilots who voted, that's 57.6% of the BALPA pilots for the strike.
What's the representation of BALPA among WN pilots? I guess, like usual, a minority will disrupt a whole company; good job...

Given, until recently, FR refused to allow its crew union representation (which was only won through strike action in the face of threats from management) it's all well and good calling them a minority but there's more to it than that. Although, 57.6% is actually a majority

Again, why are people so quick to call out the unions for wanting fair T&Cs to enable and enhance a safe operation rather than blaming the company management for terrible T&Cs and rock bottom morale? Are you aware of what T&Cs are like at Ryanair?

57.6% of the BALPA-represented pilots voted for the strike; unless BALPA represents 100% of the pilots, there is a great chance that those who voted for the strike are actually a minority (meaning, less than 50%) of all Ryanair pilots.

thaiflyer wrote:

BA777FO wrote:

WayexTDI wrote:

So, 80% of the 72% BALPA pilots who voted, that's 57.6% of the BALPA pilots for the strike.
What's the representation of BALPA among WN pilots? I guess, like usual, a minority will disrupt a whole company; good job...

Given, until recently, FR refused to allow its crew union representation (which was only won through strike action in the face of threats from management) it's all well and good calling them a minority but there's more to it than that. Although, 57.6% is actually a majority

Again, why are people so quick to call out the unions for wanting fair T&Cs to enable and enhance a safe operation rather than blaming the company management for terrible T&Cs and rock bottom morale? Are you aware of what T&Cs are like at Ryanair?

I do understand and respect that the pilots want to improve their work conditions but why is this always done over the backs of the normal costumers who are no part in the conflict.
I'm booked on BA and they are also threatening with strike, as i have to fly for business this is something i can do without.
And please don't start that it is for the higher goal or something similar and that the costumers can rebook or fly at a later date as this is not always possible or practical.
This does not create any sympathy from the costumers towards the pilots.
For sure their are other ways to support your cause which does not involve harassing the poor costumers.

That's the industry they are in. They are employees of a company, the company has a responsibility to the customer. Sometimes it's a case of having to go to the last resort, not to harm the customers, but to get the attention of management. Just because they are in a customer serving industry, does not meant they should not be entitled to strike, if legitimate reasons exist. Same for the case of healthcare staff like nurses and doctors. There are serious consequences if they strike, but a sometimes unavoidable casualty.

A good number of years in Ireland we had what was called a "blue flu". The Irish police (Gardai) under the terms of their contract are not allowed to strike. There was industrial dispute a number of years ago and instead of them striking (which they couldn't) huge numbers of them called in sick en-masse, which effectively had the same result as a strike. Their uniforms are blue, hence the "blue flu".

BasilFawlty wrote:

BA777FO wrote:

WayexTDI wrote:

Are you aware of what T&Cs are like at Ryanair?

What's wrong in your view with the T&C's at Ryanair? The pay is quite good, especially when compared to some other airlines. The roster is a very stable 5/4 roster, no night stops, no night flights, pilot recurrent and command trainings are of high standards. The only things wrong in my view are the contracting practices (instead of direct employment) and the deliberately giving you not the base you want in various cases.

Is gross pay good at Ryanair? Or is it just net pay that is good after tax avoidance?

Are U.K. pilots now paying U.K. tax properly through PAYE? Or is it still the case that most have a shell company, so that they can pay corporate tax rates for personal advantage?

The gross pay itself is quite good. It’s better than the likes of BA, LS, TCX and TOM.

WayexTDI wrote:

So, 80% of the 72% BALPA pilots who voted, that's 57.6% of the BALPA pilots for the strike.
What's the representation of BALPA among WN pilots? I guess, like usual, a minority will disrupt a whole company; good job...

Well, according to your math (or "Maths" in UK) the 80% yes vote is actually 58% of ALL pilots, so a majority in any way you slice it / dice it / mince it or mash it.

Also not sure how this relates to WN, they have their own union:

https://www.swapa.org/

And WN pilots will not have any say in a Ryanair contract. BALPA does not represent any airline outside of the UK.

Once the majority accepts Union representation, the majority has the say in what transacts between the represented body and the company, so I'm not sure the source of your outrage?

The T&C's only improved because Norwegian was hiring 1,000 FR 737 pilots a year, pushing Ryanair to the brink of collapse.

MOL is venomous to his employees. The cabin crews should strike too.

WayexTDI wrote:

BA777FO wrote:

WayexTDI wrote:

So, 80% of the 72% BALPA pilots who voted, that's 57.6% of the BALPA pilots for the strike.
What's the representation of BALPA among WN pilots? I guess, like usual, a minority will disrupt a whole company; good job...

Given, until recently, FR refused to allow its crew union representation (which was only won through strike action in the face of threats from management) it's all well and good calling them a minority but there's more to it than that. Although, 57.6% is actually a majority

Again, why are people so quick to call out the unions for wanting fair T&Cs to enable and enhance a safe operation rather than blaming the company management for terrible T&Cs and rock bottom morale? Are you aware of what T&Cs are like at Ryanair?

57.6% of the BALPA-represented pilots voted for the strike; unless BALPA represents 100% of the pilots, there is a great chance that those who voted for the strike are actually a minority (meaning, less than 50%) of all Ryanair pilots.

Doesn't matter. If BALPA has enough to strike they do. What I'm interesting is what do those non BALPA pilots do during the strike? Do they fly or not?

aeropix wrote:

WayexTDI wrote:

So, 80% of the 72% BALPA pilots who voted, that's 57.6% of the BALPA pilots for the strike.
What's the representation of BALPA among WN pilots? I guess, like usual, a minority will disrupt a whole company; good job...

Well, according to your math (or "Maths" in UK) the 80% yes vote is actually 58% of ALL pilots, so a majority in any way you slice it / dice it / mince it or mash it.

Also not sure how this relates to WN, they have their own union:

https://www.swapa.org/

And WN pilots will not have any say in a Ryanair contract. BALPA does not represent any airline outside of the UK.

Once the majority accepts Union representation, the majority has the say in what transacts between the represented body and the company, so I'm not sure the source of your outrage?

No. 72% of the BALPA-represented pilots voted, and of those votes, 80% voted for "yes"; so, 58% of the BALPA-represented pilots voted for the strike.
Question is: are the BALPA-represented pilots 100% of the FR pilots? If not, then the overall percentage of FR pilots who voted for the strike is less than that, and could be a minority of the pilots (less than 50%).

My "outrage" as you say, is that, as very common, strikes are initiated by a majority of the majority of the majority, and that very often represent a minority of the workforce; yet, they take the whole company, and its customers, hostage.

And, yes, I don't know why I typed WN (Southwest); it's a typo.

Varsity1 wrote:

MOL is venomous to his employees. The cabin crews should strike too.

They are. Cabin crew working on Ryanair planes (hard to say employees these days) based in Spain and Portugal are striking this summer. Even though Ryanair said contracts would comply with local laws, about 75% is not even employed by Ryanair but through temp recruiters and work agencies. And of course those 25% remaining (pursers??) are still under Irish contracts.

In the Spanish case Ryanair has revealed to the public that TFS, LPA and GRO bases are closing but routes will continue being operated from the other end. That is being said by FR at the same time it says 500 people from flight crew and 400 from cabin crew are no longer needed.... while “HR” still has recruiting proceses ongoing...

At the end, Pay check is not everything and workers from all over Europe are saying that management is setting a toxic work environment against many laws in several countries.

Why are they so polite that they schedule the strike weeks in advance? Wouldn't it be more effective to do it with little notice to get their attention more?

zuckie13 wrote:

Why are they so polite that they schedule the strike weeks in advance? Wouldn't it be more effective to do it with little notice to get their attention more?

Legal obligation?

AirKevin wrote:

zuckie13 wrote:

Why are they so polite that they schedule the strike weeks in advance? Wouldn't it be more effective to do it with little notice to get their attention more?

Legal obligation?

Yes. Unlike their employer, some people do comply with the law

WayexTDI wrote:

Question is: are the BALPA-represented pilots 100% of the FR pilots?

I'm wondering if this works differently in England than the US? In my experience once the Union is voted "in" then there is one Collective Bargaining Agreement that covers the ENTIRE workgroup, whether they are in the union or not. It would simply bee too difficult to have one agreement for the Union pilots and a separate agreement for the Non-Union ones. If the majority votes to have the union, such as happened at Ryanair, then every pilot gets the same Union negotiated contract, like it or not.

So it got me to thinking is it somehow different in England, with different contracts for the different class of individual? Also if a strike is called for would there be less protection for the non-union guys, if they chose to walk out?

I may be in the minority, but as a pilot who has traveled a lot with Ryanair in the past, I will not step on board a Ryanair aircraft while, amongst other things, their employees are treated as they are at present. The fact that many employees are not employed directly by Ryanair and are easily sacked, punished and bullied, screams volumes in a company that is financially doing well. Having had many years of experience with BALPA, strike action is the last resort and it appears the only leverage the pilots have with the brutal O’Leary.

And now Ryanair pilots based in the Republic of Ireland have voted for strike action.
Of the members of the Irish Air Line Pilots' Association (IALPA) who voted, 94% were in favour.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49297440

aeropix wrote:

WayexTDI wrote:

Question is: are the BALPA-represented pilots 100% of the FR pilots?

I'm wondering if this works differently in England than the US? In my experience once the Union is voted "in" then there is one Collective Bargaining Agreement that covers the ENTIRE workgroup, whether they are in the union or not. It would simply bee too difficult to have one agreement for the Union pilots and a separate agreement for the Non-Union ones. If the majority votes to have the union, such as happened at Ryanair, then every pilot gets the same Union negotiated contract, like it or not.

So it got me to thinking is it somehow different in England, with different contracts for the different class of individual? Also if a strike is called for would there be less protection for the non-union guys, if they chose to walk out?

It's the same in the UK as in the US in that regard. Everyone in any particular worker group is covered by any collective bargaining agreement made between the union and the employer, regardless as to whether they are all members of the union. This avoids a scenario whereby the company has to negotiate once with the union and then individually with every employee who is not a member. Effectively, the non-unionised employees get a 'free-ride', in that they pay no union dues but benefit from the agreements struck, which would almost always be more beneficial that any agreement they might make as an individual.
The flip side of that, however, is that the same non-unionised individual has no representation or protection should they ever be in dispute with the company, including when a strike is called, so non-unionised employees are obliged to turn up for work, otherwise they are in breach of contract and risk being fired.
On the point of different contracts within the same employee group, yes, there are often several contracts in existence at the same time, particularly with regard to pay grades, if not slightly different conditions as well. These also exist with the (sometimes grudging) approval of the union but, depending on the degree of variance, sometimes the employees work together (eg, more recent pilot recruits working on less generous terms alongside senior colleagues) and sometimes they work completely separately. A good example of this is British Airways' Mixed Fleet Cabin Crew, whose pay, Terms & Conditions and management structure are so vastly different from the contracts of their 'Legacy' colleagues, that the two groups work completely independently of each other, the BA route network being 'carved up' and operated route by route, either by the older 'legacy' crews or by Mixed Fleet. BA's London Gatwick-based cabin crew are on another contract again and there is no transfer opportunity between any of the three groups involved.

The problem is with companies like ba and Ryanair, is that while they have made record profits the last few years but have not passed it on to the people that made it . Now Ryanair is one of the largest airlines in Europe they should have some of the best t and c . They are way behind in many ways . They have lacked things like loss of licence
sick pay a half decent pension and car parking etc . On the face of it they’re paid ok but when you take the cost of the extra benefits that most airlines provide they are less well off . Hats off to the pilots for fighting for parity . Why should they be paid less than the going rate.

WayexTDI wrote:

No. 72% of the BALPA-represented pilots voted, and of those votes, 80% voted for "yes"; so, 58% of the BALPA-represented pilots voted for the strike.
Question is: are the BALPA-represented pilots 100% of the FR pilots? If not, then the overall percentage of FR pilots who voted for the strike is less than that, and could be a minority of the pilots (less than 50%).

Not overall percentage of Ryanair pilots, but Ryanair pilots based in the UK. Ryanair has multiple bases throughout Europe, and employment t&c vary from one country to another, so it would not make sense to have a single union covering all Ryanair pilots, not to mention that Ryanair itself does not recognize (the same) union in every country.

Seems like their Spanish-based colleagues are also threatening strike action too. Although this is regarding base closures more so, not a good look for Ryanair.

https://www.euronews.com/2019/08/10/rya ... e-over-pay

FCAFLYBOY wrote:

Seems like their Spanish-based colleagues are also threatening strike action too. Although this is regarding base closures more so, not a good look for Ryanair.

https://www.euronews.com/2019/08/10/rya ... e-over-pay

If FR has three pilot unions strike, that screams issue.

Time for FR to employ people, not contract them.

Lightsaber