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MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:44 am
by rigo
I just had a connection in LAX and was surprised to see a number of 737s with the MAX-style dual upward-downward winglets (not sure what they are officially called). These aircraft were normally operating, taxiing, taking off etc. I can't imagine that the airlines (Southwest, Delta) would violate the grounding, so I presume that these must really have been 737NGs, but with this type of winglets? Is it an option, or were they fitted by default on the last NG production series? Most of the time I fly Down Under and occasionally in Europe and I have never seen that in those parts of the world.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:48 am
by D7A330
They're called "Split Scimitar Winglets" and have been installed as an option on 737NG for a few years now. Also, Virgin Australia had them installed on one of their 738's this week.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:13 am
by AirwayBill
Some late-build NGs have Split Scimitar winglets, which are similar to the MAX's winglets, but sporting a curvier profile, and with the tips of both upper and lower sections pointing backwards. Lower winglet section is also smaller, and looks like its been hastily added to the regular NG winglet assembly.

The MAX have AT winglets, which sport a more angular shape than the Split Scimitar found on the NG. They also have the strobe (more like a long flash LED now actually) directly built into the lower winglet. Look better integrated than the late implemented Split Scimitars.

A good comparison from the same perspective:

Image
737 NG SS winglet


Image
737MAX AT winglet

Also, from the front only, you can see that the MAX's AT winglets are more pointing more "outwards" than the almost-vertical NG winglets (can't integrate that picture):

http://www.b737.org.uk/images/atwinglets_diagram.jpg

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:54 am
by JannEejit
The split scimitar design (or scimitar as it doesn't include the lower portion) is also available as a 757 upgrade, although I think only Icelandair and United have taken them so far ?

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:43 am
by rigo
AirwayBill wrote:
Some late-build NGs have Split Scimitar winglets, which are similar to the MAX's winglets, but sporting a curvier profile, and with the tips of both upper and lower sections pointing backwards. Lower winglet section is also smaller, and looks like its been hastily added to the regular NG winglet assembly.

The MAX have AT winglets, which sport a more angular shape than the Split Scimitar found on the NG. They also have the strobe (more like a long flash LED now actually) directly built into the lower winglet. Look better integrated than the late implemented Split Scimitars.

A good comparison from the same perspective:

Image
737 NG SS winglet


Image
737MAX AT winglet

Also, from the front only, you can see that the MAX's AT winglets are more pointing more "outwards" than the almost-vertical NG winglets (can't integrate that picture):

http://www.b737.org.uk/images/atwinglets_diagram.jpg


Very interesting, thank you for sharing this.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:50 am
by hOMSaR
JannEejit wrote:
The split scimitar design (or scimitar as it doesn't include the lower portion) is also available as a 757 upgrade, although I think only Icelandair and United have taken them so far ?


Technically, it’s not a split scimitar, because it doesn’t have the lower strake. It’s just a scimitar.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:07 pm
by FlyingJhawk
Very interesting information but the real question is how does one pronounce "scimitar"? :)

At first I thought it was "skim-a-tar" but then heard it as "sim-e-ter" with the "c" silent an no accent on any of the syllables.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:13 pm
by FatCat
I've seen those winglets on a Transavia 737-700 (or -800, do not remember very well) in PSA sone 5 months ago.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:18 pm
by Polot
FlyingJhawk wrote:
Very interesting information but the real question is how does one pronounce "scimitar"? :)

At first I thought it was "skim-a-tar" but then heard it as "sim-e-ter" with the "c" silent an no accent on any of the syllables.

The “c” is silent. Not sure if it is suppose to end on “tar” or “ter”, I’ve heard both. I think it varies by region/accent.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:13 pm
by JannEejit
hOMSaR wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
The split scimitar design (or scimitar as it doesn't include the lower portion) is also available as a 757 upgrade, although I think only Icelandair and United have taken them so far ?


Technically, it’s not a split scimitar, because it doesn’t have the lower strake. It’s just a scimitar.


Lol, apologies if I didn't qualify that enough in my original post.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:29 pm
by leghorn
If you had a 737-800 going transcontinental day-in day-out would the upgrade of tip pay for itself.
how much more efficient are they?

edit: got my answer
http://www.b737.org.uk/winglets.htm#splitscimitar

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:32 pm
by hOMSaR
JannEejit wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
The split scimitar design (or scimitar as it doesn't include the lower portion) is also available as a 757 upgrade, although I think only Icelandair and United have taken them so far ?


Technically, it’s not a split scimitar, because it doesn’t have the lower strake. It’s just a scimitar.


Lol, apologies if I didn't qualify that enough in my original post.


Actually, I just misread the part in parentheses.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:40 pm
by ordbosewr
JannEejit wrote:
The split scimitar design (or scimitar as it doesn't include the lower portion) is also available as a 757 upgrade, although I think only Icelandair and United have taken them so far ?


United was the first airline to fly with them on the NG:
Here is an article: https://www.usatoday.com/story/todayint ... s/5611085/

I want to say UA has them on all NG's, because I see them all the time at EWR.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:47 pm
by superjeff
Alaska also has installed them, and I think Delta has some on a number of 737's in their fleet.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:56 pm
by JannEejit
hOMSaR wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:

Technically, it’s not a split scimitar, because it doesn’t have the lower strake. It’s just a scimitar.


Lol, apologies if I didn't qualify that enough in my original post.


Actually, I just misread the part in parentheses.


We all do it, my man.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:09 pm
by WIederling
Polot wrote:
FlyingJhawk wrote:
Very interesting information but the real question is how does one pronounce "scimitar"? :)

At first I thought it was "skim-a-tar" but then heard it as "sim-e-ter" with the "c" silent an no accent on any of the syllables.

The “c” is silent. Not sure if it is suppose to end on “tar” or “ter”, I’ve heard both. I think it varies by region/accent.


doesn't bother me.
I've only ever used it in writing :-))

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:54 pm
by planecane
leghorn wrote:
If you had a 737-800 going transcontinental day-in day-out would the upgrade of tip pay for itself.
how much more efficient are they?

edit: got my answer
http://www.b737.org.uk/winglets.htm#splitscimitar


I believe the fuel savings quoted are on top of the savings for the normal APB winglet.

It would be interesting to know the fuel savings of a MAX8 (well, currently it is 100%) vs. a 737-800 late build with split scimitar winglets. Is that the comparison Southwest did when they said 13%?

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:08 pm
by N664US
FatCat wrote:
I've seen those winglets on a Transavia 737-700 (or -800, do not remember very well) in PSA sone 5 months ago.


HV installed their first split scimitars on PH-HSK in February, and plans to have 5 737-800's equipped with the splits by the end of the year. Europe as a whole has been steadily increasing in split scimitar operators — LG, QS, NO, BY, X3, TB, OR, 6B, and PQ are (I think) all European split scimitar operators.

Your best chance of seeing the scimitars is still in North and South America, as AM, AS, CP, DL, G3, UA, WG, WN, and WS all have some scimitar-equipped NGs.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:19 pm
by flyingclrs727
I first saw a split scimitar winglet on an Alaska Airlines 737-800 at HNL in February 2015. My first flight on a plane with them was 3 days later on a UA 737-824 flight from SFO to AUS.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:25 pm
by barney captain
scim·i·tar
/ˈsimədər,ˈsiməˌtär/

noun
a short sword with a curved blade that broadens toward the point, used originally in Eastern countries.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:43 pm
by SXDFC
Just out of curiosity, could the MAX winglets fit on an NG wing?

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:58 pm
by WN732
SXDFC wrote:
Just out of curiosity, could the MAX winglets fit on an NG wing?


Technically yes since the only difference between the two wings is FBW spoilers on the MAX. Although, the mating point between the AT winglet on the MAX has more symmetry since the NG's winglets were after market. So the only way to make it work would be to change the wing tip entirely to allow the AT winglet to be installed. I believe there is also more structural reinforcement at the wing root since the AT winglet is larger than the scimitar.

Could it be done? Probably. Is it worth it? Probably not.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:08 am
by planecane
WN732 wrote:
SXDFC wrote:
Just out of curiosity, could the MAX winglets fit on an NG wing?


Technically yes since the only difference between the two wings is FBW spoilers on the MAX. Although, the mating point between the AT winglet on the MAX has more symmetry since the NG's winglets were after market. So the only way to make it work would be to change the wing tip entirely to allow the AT winglet to be installed. I believe there is also more structural reinforcement at the wing root since the AT winglet is larger than the scimitar.

Could it be done? Probably. Is it worth it? Probably not.

Didn't aviation partners say that the split scimitar performs better than the AT?

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:44 am
by WN732
planecane wrote:
WN732 wrote:
SXDFC wrote:
Just out of curiosity, could the MAX winglets fit on an NG wing?


Technically yes since the only difference between the two wings is FBW spoilers on the MAX. Although, the mating point between the AT winglet on the MAX has more symmetry since the NG's winglets were after market. So the only way to make it work would be to change the wing tip entirely to allow the AT winglet to be installed. I believe there is also more structural reinforcement at the wing root since the AT winglet is larger than the scimitar.

Could it be done? Probably. Is it worth it? Probably not.

Didn't aviation partners say that the split scimitar performs better than the AT?


That is correct. APB estimates that the Scimitar performs .5% better. I'd be curious to know if the AT winglet was designed after the Scimitar or if Boeing just decided that the overall efficiency coupled with the AT winglet was just enough anyways.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:48 am
by mga707
barney captain wrote:
scim·i·tar
/ˈsimədər,ˈsiməˌtär/

noun
a short sword with a curved blade that broadens toward the point, used originally in Eastern countries.


In aviation, it was also a British Royal Navy fighter in use from 1957 to 1969.

https://images.app.goo.gl/EHmDsK5iQk6WuuML6

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:21 am
by FatCat
N664US wrote:
FatCat wrote:
I've seen those winglets on a Transavia 737-700 (or -800, do not remember very well) in PSA sone 5 months ago.


HV installed their first split scimitars on PH-HSK in February, and plans to have 5 737-800's equipped with the splits by the end of the year. Europe as a whole has been steadily increasing in split scimitar operators — LG, QS, NO, BY, X3, TB, OR, 6B, and PQ are (I think) all European split scimitar operators.

Your best chance of seeing the scimitars is still in North and South America, as AM, AS, CP, DL, G3, UA, WG, WN, and WS all have some scimitar-equipped NGs.

Thanks for the info.
It was during one of my frequent (twice a month) trip to Eindhoven. I flew FR and the Transavia bird was standing right next to our 738 with unpdated (MAX?) interiors.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:44 am
by OA940
Honestly I think the scimitars look better than the MAX winglets. I think they're more elegant and I love the little curve at the top

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:15 am
by justplanesmart
N664US wrote:
FatCat wrote:
I've seen those winglets on a Transavia 737-700 (or -800, do not remember very well) in PSA sone 5 months ago.


HV installed their first split scimitars on PH-HSK in February, and plans to have 5 737-800's equipped with the splits by the end of the year. Europe as a whole has been steadily increasing in split scimitar operators — LG, QS, NO, BY, X3, TB, OR, 6B, and PQ are (I think) all European split scimitar operators.

Your best chance of seeing the scimitars is still in North and South America, as AM, AS, CP, DL, G3, UA, WG, WN, and WS all have some scimitar-equipped NGs.



Here are the operators of scimitar-equipped 737 aircraft that I am aware of:

Canada:
Air Transat, Sunwing, WestJet/Swoop

United States:
Alaska, Delta, Southwest, Sun Country, United

Latin America:
AeroMexico. Copa, FlyBondi, GOL

Europe:
AirExplore, Alrosa, ASL, Corendon, Enter Air, LOT, Luxair, Neos, Pobeda, Royal Flight, SkyUp, Sun Express, Travel Service/SmartWings, TUI, Yakutia

Africa:
Comair/Kulula, Ethiopian

Asia:
Hainan, Jeju Air, NewGen Airways

Australia:
Virgin Australia

In addition, I am aware of 13 BBJ/VIP aircraft so equipped, but one of those has yet to find a customer.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:18 am
by juliuswong
justplanesmart wrote:
N664US wrote:
FatCat wrote:
I've seen those winglets on a Transavia 737-700 (or -800, do not remember very well) in PSA sone 5 months ago.


HV installed their first split scimitars on PH-HSK in February, and plans to have 5 737-800's equipped with the splits by the end of the year. Europe as a whole has been steadily increasing in split scimitar operators — LG, QS, NO, BY, X3, TB, OR, 6B, and PQ are (I think) all European split scimitar operators.

Your best chance of seeing the scimitars is still in North and South America, as AM, AS, CP, DL, G3, UA, WG, WN, and WS all have some scimitar-equipped NGs.



Here are the operators of scimitar-equipped 737 aircraft that I am aware of:
Asia:
Hainan, Jeju Air, NewGen Airways

In addition, I am aware of 13 BBJ/VIP aircraft so equipped, but one of those has yet to find a customer.

Unfortunately, NewGen Airways is toasted. They have a lone B737-400 left in fleet.

Re: MAX-style winglets on 737NGs?

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:28 pm
by estorilm
OA940 wrote:
Honestly I think the scimitars look better than the MAX winglets. I think they're more elegant and I love the little curve at the top

I agree, I was just on 4x WN flights this past week and got to see them all for the first time (well, obviously not the MAX) - but was impressed with the split scimitars' - always love a good elegant piece of wind-tunnel / fluid / aerodynamic testing. ;)