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BA744PHX
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Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:31 pm

So now we have seen LH 2020 and AA part 1 for 2020, any rumors from Skyteam members? AF, DL, KL?

I would hope for possible AF/KL expansion into the USA, any thoughts on DL into Europe?

LH really went big on their expansion, i can imagine this would be hard to beat
Last edited by BA744PHX on Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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flyoregon
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:34 pm

I’d like to see PDX-LHR go year round and a seasonal PDX-CDG added...but I’m not holding my breath
 
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:38 pm

Capacity discipline.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:39 pm

Have you looked at a DL route map lately? Used the interactive route map to look at routes into CDG/AMS/LHR? What new routes do you think would work, and why?

https://dl.fltmaps.com/en
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:13 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
So now we have seen LH 2020 and AA part 1 for 2020, any rumors from Skyteam members? AF, DL, KL?

I would hope for possible AF/KL expansion into the USA, any thoughts on DL into Europe?

LH really went big on their expansion, i can imagine this would be hard to beat


Since DL is ending LAX-AMS, I expect that slot will go to a new city. Given the recent declaration of AUS and BNA as “focus cities”, I expect both to get a DL TATL flight within the next few years (with one of them possibly even taking LAX’s AMS slot).

Beyond that, idk.
 
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:20 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Have you looked at a DL route map lately? Used the interactive route map to look at routes into CDG/AMS/LHR? What new routes do you think would work, and why?

https://dl.fltmaps.com/en

Not the OP but a few ideas based on existing gaps in European coverage by SkyTeam:

ATL-PRG or MSP-PRG (to compete with newly announced ORD-PRG by AA)
BOS-FRA
JFK-VIE
LAX-MAD
LAX-EDI
LAX-FRA
LAX-MUC
LAX-BER
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FlyingHollander
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:32 pm

The only destinations north/east of ATL and DTW served nonstop from AMS are BOS, JFK and IAD. That has always seemed minimal to me. The population is there, the economy is good and the stage length is relatively short.
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:42 pm

JakubH wrote:
LAX-FRA
LAX-MUC


I don't think so. Germany is Star Alliance territory and Lufthansa is really big on these routes (I believe they use the A380 on them). What's more, Lufthansa partners with United which also has a hub at LAX. Lufthansa, with feed from United, would compete Delta straight out of these routes.
 
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:42 pm

CVG-AMS: DL hublet that is holding its own and can be done in a 752.

BWI-AMS/CDG: Gives Sky Team another gateway in the DC area at an airport that only sees BA to LHR and seasonal Condos to FRA as it's only TATL routes. Can also draw from the PHL catchment area.

I love that DL has some p2p routes, it makes things interesting :)
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Delta28L
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:48 pm

JakubH wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Have you looked at a DL route map lately? Used the interactive route map to look at routes into CDG/AMS/LHR? What new routes do you think would work, and why?

https://dl.fltmaps.com/en

Not the OP but a few ideas based on existing gaps in European coverage by SkyTeam:

ATL-PRG or MSP-PRG (to compete with newly announced ORD-PRG by AA)
BOS-FRA
JFK-VIE
LAX-MAD
LAX-EDI
LAX-FRA
LAX-MUC
LAX-BER


LAX expansion will be through other airlines that codeshare through Delta. Delta tends to funnel/favor KLM-AirFrance when it comes time for European destinations. is there even demand for MSP-PRG? Wasn’t ATL-PRG served back in the mid 200s before the NW/DL merger and economic meltdown? JFK-VIE would be tough since VIE is a star Alliance hub and Austrian Airlines serves the NYC area already.
 
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:53 pm

I personally consider it kind of a long shot, but folks from AF have had at least a couple meetings with some New Orleans business development organization, so I wouldn't be too surprised to see AF open up MSY-CDG in the next year or two.

The last couple years have seen our first two TATL nonstops in at least 3 and a half decades (Condor MSY-FRA seasonal and BA MSY-LHR year-round), and the new terminal is expected to bring more interest.
 
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BA744PHX
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:56 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Have you looked at a DL route map lately? Used the interactive route map to look at routes into CDG/AMS/LHR? What new routes do you think would work, and why?

https://dl.fltmaps.com/en


of course, have you?

There are many holes left to be filled

CDG-DEN/PHX/SAN/MCO/MSY/PHL
AMS-DEN/DFW/PHX/PHL
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:12 pm

Maybe boost their new "focus cities" at BNA/AUS/SJC with a Euro-link. RDU to either AMS or CDG to start. Maybe both eventually.
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Eirules
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:18 pm

It wouldn’t shock me to see DL add DTW-DUB. EI jumped the gun on them and added MSP this summer and there’s strong rumours DTW is next
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:19 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
Maybe boost their new "focus cities" at BNA/AUS/SJC with a Euro-link. RDU to either AMS or CDG to start. Maybe both eventually.


DL already flies RDU-CDG today with the 763ER; route started a few years back with a 757 and has since been upgauged to a 767.

Also wouldn’t be surprised if we were to see more BOS-Europe flying.
 
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:25 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
There are many holes left to be filled
AMS-DEN/DFW/PHX/PHL

DEN: United had 2 main hubs unserved from AMS, until they chose to add SFO. If UA thinks DEN (the other) isn't a route to add at this moment, I don't know why KL would. I don't think KL's EU feed changes this much, there are other options from DEN.

DFW: KL axed DFW, and AA has filled the hole. I don't think it's a priority to bring this route back.

PHX: PHX was undeserved for quite a while in my opinion. The daily BA flights had a ton of Dutch, German and Scandinavians connecting in LHR. Recently though, LHR has been upgauged, Condor has commenced service to FRA and Lufthansa has announced service as well. KL is too late to the game I would suspect.

FlyingHollander wrote:
The only destinations north/east of ATL and DTW served nonstop from AMS are BOS, JFK and IAD. That has always seemed minimal to me. The population is there, the economy is good and the stage length is relatively short.

PHL: Philly would fall into this category. AA does serve the market, but you would think KL should be able to make such a large market work. KL's on board product is definitely better than AA's, giving them the edge in that regard. Is AA still using those ancient 757 and 767 without IFE? One of the reasons PHL is said to be underserved is leakage to EWR, another destination KL doesn't serve (anymore).
Last edited by FlyingHollander on Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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czek6
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:27 pm

Wow, you are my new favorite person. I think BWI-CDG would do very well, at least starting as a summer seasonal.



TWA772LR wrote:
CVG-AMS: DL hublet that is holding its own and can be done in a 752.

BWI-AMS/CDG: Gives Sky Team another gateway in the DC area at an airport that only sees BA to LHR and seasonal Condos to FRA as it's only TATL routes. Can also draw from the PHL catchment area.

I love that DL has some p2p routes, it makes things interesting :)
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:27 pm

Depending on how the Alitalia deal goes, I could see them bulk up MXP and FCO, not to the extent of CDG and AMS of course but I could see 5-10 departures eventually. A longshot for 2020 though.

I would love to see MSY and AUS.
 
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:33 pm

Any possibility of adding GVA? Seems like a hole in Delta's European network.
 
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:12 pm

panamair wrote:

DL already flies RDU-CDG today with the 763ER; route started a few years back with a 757 and has since been upgauged to a 767.


Oooops! Totally forgot about that one, thanks.
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Cointrin330
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:12 am

Shields wrote:
Any possibility of adding GVA? Seems like a hole in Delta's European network.


Not really....the biggest US markets for GVA service are already well covered (JFK, which is said to be LX's most profitable route) as well as EWR and IAD. EWR due to the UA hub there, though the flight actually started as a CO route, and IAD is another key market for government traffic, NGOs, and the like. DL's most logical GVA gateway would be JFK, but the region probably has the market covered. ATL would depend heavily on connecting traffic. The rest of the DL hubs again would struggle to fill the plane. DL can effortlessly serve GVA through AF or KL.
 
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:38 am

Shields wrote:
Any possibility of adding GVA? Seems like a hole in Delta's European network.


Stockholm, Oslo, Birmingham, Belfast, Warsaw, Vienna, Budapest, all come to mind for JFK (not ATL)
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:17 am

BA744PHX wrote:
Shields wrote:
Any possibility of adding GVA? Seems like a hole in Delta's European network.


Stockholm, Oslo, Birmingham, Belfast, Warsaw, Vienna, Budapest, all come to mind for JFK (not ATL)


DL has flown JFK-ARN before, seasonally. It also operated JFK-BUD for a summer or two, and served WAW nonstop in the early days after the Pan Am TATL acquisition. I could see BUD come back, but seasonally only, given the popularity of river boat cruising that feeds this market (and PRG which DL flies nonstop seasonally). JFK-VIE won't happen. OS has it to itself and the market just isn't big enough for 2 and DL has zero feed there, and lots of connection opportunities through CDG and AMS to leverage. BHX has been tried from JFK (on AA, and I think BA briefly served it as well a long time ago). It hasn't worked, and it was axed from EWR as well on UA. BFS maybe, but not a priority. OSL, highly unlikely. Very small market and as long as NAX is around and flies it a few times a week, there's enough.
 
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:33 am

BA744PHX wrote:
So now we have seen LH 2020 and AA part 1 for 2020, any rumors from Skyteam members? AF, DL, KL?

I would hope for possible AF/KL expansion into the USA, any thoughts on DL into Europe?

LH really went big on their expansion, i can imagine this would be hard to beat


With DL dropping NRT-SIN/MNL, PDX-AMS/HND/LHR moving to large a/c, plus some east coast routes going to the B764 wouldn't that free up some B763s for TATL expansion even with accounting for aircraft retirement?
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BNAMealer
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:34 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
Shields wrote:
Any possibility of adding GVA? Seems like a hole in Delta's European network.


Stockholm, Oslo, Birmingham, Belfast, Warsaw, Vienna, Budapest, all come to mind for JFK (not ATL)


DL has flown JFK-ARN before, seasonally. It also operated JFK-BUD for a summer or two, and served WAW nonstop in the early days after the Pan Am TATL acquisition. I could see BUD come back, but seasonally only, given the popularity of river boat cruising that feeds this market (and PRG which DL flies nonstop seasonally). JFK-VIE won't happen. OS has it to itself and the market just isn't big enough for 2 and DL has zero feed there, and lots of connection opportunities through CDG and AMS to leverage. BHX has been tried from JFK (on AA, and I think BA briefly served it as well a long time ago). It hasn't worked, and it was axed from EWR as well on UA. BFS maybe, but not a priority. OSL, highly unlikely. Very small market and as long as NAX is around and flies it a few times a week, there's enough.


I wonder if ATL-TLV could come back to counter AA’s new DFW-TLV route?
 
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:38 am

Midwestindy wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
So now we have seen LH 2020 and AA part 1 for 2020, any rumors from Skyteam members? AF, DL, KL?

I would hope for possible AF/KL expansion into the USA, any thoughts on DL into Europe?

LH really went big on their expansion, i can imagine this would be hard to beat


With DL dropping NRT-SIN/MNL, PDX-AMS/HND/LHR moving to large a/c, plus some east coast routes going to the B764 wouldn't that free up some B763s for TATL expansion even with accounting for aircraft retirement?


I would think so, which, along with DL’s LAX-AMS slot opening, is why I have a feeling this years TATL expansion will include AMS or CDG flights to one or more of the “focus cities” they announced in June (AUS, BNA and SJC). They will need to launch from those cities as soon as possible if they want to win over customers.
 
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:48 am

sketch wrote:
I personally consider it kind of a long shot, but folks from AF have had at least a couple meetings with some New Orleans business development organization, so I wouldn't be too surprised to see AF open up MSY-CDG in the next year or two.

The last couple years have seen our first two TATL nonstops in at least 3 and a half decades (Condor MSY-FRA seasonal and BA MSY-LHR year-round), and the new terminal is expected to bring more interest.


SkyTeam is really falling behind One World in MSY (with LHR service at very high prices) and UA's construction of a large club in the new North Terminal seems to indicate they will be increasing flights. AF MSY-CDG would help ST keep up, but DL would lose feed to ATL TATL flights. Whether it's enough to matter....
 
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:49 am

I expect BNA will get a flight to AMS or CDG, but probably not until the new IAB opens.
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:15 am

EvanWSFO wrote:
I expect BNA will get a flight to AMS or CDG, but probably not until the new IAB opens.


They could do one now if timed right. I think it’ll happen within the next 2-3 years.
 
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:41 am

Would like to see CDG-PDX and CDG-PHX
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:34 am

The argument against VS joining SkyTeam was that it would compete against AF/KL. However, with AF, KL, and DL set to own 80 percent of VS (through shareholding in AF/KL by DL, DL is effectively the majority owner of VS), would VS likely end up in SkyTeam soon?

Also, keep in mind that for TLV, Virgin Atlantic recently announced TLV on the A333. (This route was announced not long after Shai Weiss was appointed as VS CEO). That plane RONs in TLV precisely for US connections. That's why I don't see TLV-anywhere in the USA besides JFK on DL anytime soon...also, because such a plane from any other DL hub would require a 777 (JFK-TLV is flown with one of DL's 10 242t A333s, and that likely is maximum distance with likely DTW as a declared alternate).

To that end, with LHR maxed out, and AMS being slot-restricted too, while MAN is also slot-restricted, it's not close to maxed out. What are the odds that additional destinations to MAN are announced for potential domestic feed within the UK on BE? (One must also consider BE now as VS is a major shareholder in BE along with Stobart, which had been a lessor to Flybe.)
 
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:50 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Shields wrote:
Any possibility of adding GVA? Seems like a hole in Delta's European network.


Not really....the biggest US markets for GVA service are already well covered (JFK, which is said to be LX's most profitable route) as well as EWR and IAD. EWR due to the UA hub there, though the flight actually started as a CO route, and IAD is another key market for government traffic, NGOs, and the like. DL's most logical GVA gateway would be JFK, but the region probably has the market covered. ATL would depend heavily on connecting traffic. The rest of the DL hubs again would struggle to fill the plane. DL can effortlessly serve GVA through AF or KL.


This is not entirely correct. Circa 50% of the daily GVA-NYC passengers do not use the UA or LX direct flights. There is probably space for one additional flight.
With regards to other markets, DL would probably do well between GVA and BOS with the right aircraft (premium focused). Finally, note that DL has corporate contract with P&G who’s EMEA HQ is in Geneva. They could connect Geneva to Cincinnati via JFK or BOS.
 
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:10 am

TLV-ATL is 6437 miles. Edge of the range for a DL 763 or A332. So that could happen. But I expect a couple more direct flights, such as PRG and VIE. But DL has more pressing needs TPAC. They won't just abandon SIN. And no, a connection through ICN via KE won't do for that market. So I see some 77Ls being allocated to SIN. Or 278t A359s when they get them. After all, if BOM is worth 77Ls from JFK, certainly the can fly some 77Ls between LAX and SIN . .
 
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:28 am

FlyingHollander wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
There are many holes left to be filled
AMS-DEN/DFW/PHX/PHL

DEN: United had 2 main hubs unserved from AMS, until they chose to add SFO. If UA thinks DEN (the other) isn't a route to add at this moment, I don't know why KL would. I don't think KL's EU feed changes this much, there are other options from DEN.

DFW: KL axed DFW, and AA has filled the hole. I don't think it's a priority to bring this route back.

PHX: PHX was undeserved for quite a while in my opinion. The daily BA flights had a ton of Dutch, German and Scandinavians connecting in LHR. Recently though, LHR has been upgauged, Condor has commenced service to FRA and Lufthansa has announced service as well. KL is too late to the game I would suspect.

FlyingHollander wrote:
The only destinations north/east of ATL and DTW served nonstop from AMS are BOS, JFK and IAD. That has always seemed minimal to me. The population is there, the economy is good and the stage length is relatively short.

PHL: Philly would fall into this category. AA does serve the market, but you would think KL should be able to make such a large market work. KL's on board product is definitely better than AA's, giving them the edge in that regard. Is AA still using those ancient 757 and 767 without IFE? One of the reasons PHL is said to be underserved is leakage to EWR, another destination KL doesn't serve (anymore).


So, if DL could not make LHR/CDG (at one time opb AF) - PHL work, what gives you the impression KLM with larger aircraft could make PHL-AMS work? Mind you both LHR/CDG are much bigger local markets out of PHL than PHL-AMS.

On AA Today AMS-PHL is on the 767, as of Feb it becomes a 787.

As to PHX, no, can’t imagine KLM of AF operating into PHX.


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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:29 am

PDX-CDG please.
 
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:41 am

xorrygva wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Shields wrote:
Any possibility of adding GVA? Seems like a hole in Delta's European network.


Not really....the biggest US markets for GVA service are already well covered (JFK, which is said to be LX's most profitable route) as well as EWR and IAD. EWR due to the UA hub there, though the flight actually started as a CO route, and IAD is another key market for government traffic, NGOs, and the like. DL's most logical GVA gateway would be JFK, but the region probably has the market covered. ATL would depend heavily on connecting traffic. The rest of the DL hubs again would struggle to fill the plane. DL can effortlessly serve GVA through AF or KL.


This is not entirely correct. Circa 50% of the daily GVA-NYC passengers do not use the UA or LX direct flights. There is probably space for one additional flight.
With regards to other markets, DL would probably do well between GVA and BOS with the right aircraft (premium focused). Finally, note that DL has corporate contract with P&G who’s EMEA HQ is in Geneva. They could connect Geneva to Cincinnati via JFK or BOS.


I agree GVA seems like it could work for DL. To be honest, the fact that it's LX's most profitable route, coupled with the fact that LX's long haul fleet is basically maxed out (limiting ability for competitive response), would seem to bode well for new carrier entry.

On a separate but related subject, does anyone know how many 339s will be on property by next summer, and when the last two 359s in the initial batch of 15 are arriving?
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:18 am

jagraham wrote:
They won't just abandon SIN.
jagraham wrote:
And no, a connection through ICN via KE won't do for that market.

That's more fantasy on your part, than any verifiable fact from DL.


jagraham wrote:
Or 278t A359s when they get them.

They could have those tomorrow, if they wanted.
DL could uprate their current A359s to 277T+ with a phone call and a wired cheque to Airbus, just like CX did.


jagraham wrote:
After all, if BOM is worth 77Ls from JFK, certainly the can fly some 77Ls between LAX and SIN

Why are you conflating two completely different markets, in different countries, with different dynamics-- as if they had anyhing to do with each other?
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Cointrin330
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:43 am

xorrygva wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Shields wrote:
Any possibility of adding GVA? Seems like a hole in Delta's European network.


Not really....the biggest US markets for GVA service are already well covered (JFK, which is said to be LX's most profitable route) as well as EWR and IAD. EWR due to the UA hub there, though the flight actually started as a CO route, and IAD is another key market for government traffic, NGOs, and the like. DL's most logical GVA gateway would be JFK, but the region probably has the market covered. ATL would depend heavily on connecting traffic. The rest of the DL hubs again would struggle to fill the plane. DL can effortlessly serve GVA through AF or KL.


This is not entirely correct. Circa 50% of the daily GVA-NYC passengers do not use the UA or LX direct flights. There is probably space for one additional flight.
With regards to other markets, DL would probably do well between GVA and BOS with the right aircraft (premium focused). Finally, note that DL has corporate contract with P&G who’s EMEA HQ is in Geneva. They could connect Geneva to Cincinnati via JFK or BOS.


BOS-GVA maybe, but a long shot for sure. As for connecting P&G traffic to CVG, I'm not sure that is high on the DL bean counter's list. CVG is barely a focus city for Delta at this point, and there is the CDG flight, which offers the connections to GVA through AF. That probably covers the CVG-GVA traffic and much more cost effectively too. Sorry, but I don't see DL adding GVA to its route network.
 
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:01 am

As AMS is still restricted by its maximum flight cap KLM has stated they only have the possibility to serve new destinations by cancelling existing ones. I don’t see a lot of new routes coming from KL in the context of skyteam.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:08 am

BNAMealer wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
I expect BNA will get a flight to AMS or CDG, but probably not until the new IAB opens.


They could do one now if timed right. I think it’ll happen within the next 2-3 years.


Maybe summer seasonal, I don't see the business case of why it would happen now. BA just increased to daily, and LFs had been average subdaily before the switch(outside of June/July). Adding another year-round flight on top of that for next summer may not be the best idea.

ANA787 wrote:
PDX-CDG please.

acjbbj wrote:
Would like to see CDG-PDX and CDG-PHX


What's the business case for PDX-CDG? PDX-LHR/AMS are moving to larger aircraft that will accommodate more traffic this upcoming summer, so hard to see DL also adding a completely new route on top of that. Especially a route that (for the most part) generally serves the same flows as AMS.

Nola wrote:
sketch wrote:
I personally consider it kind of a long shot, but folks from AF have had at least a couple meetings with some New Orleans business development organization, so I wouldn't be too surprised to see AF open up MSY-CDG in the next year or two.

The last couple years have seen our first two TATL nonstops in at least 3 and a half decades (Condor MSY-FRA seasonal and BA MSY-LHR year-round), and the new terminal is expected to bring more interest.


SkyTeam is really falling behind One World in MSY (with LHR service at very high prices) and UA's construction of a large club in the new North Terminal seems to indicate they will be increasing flights. AF MSY-CDG would help ST keep up, but DL would lose feed to ATL TATL flights. Whether it's enough to matter....


Fares on the MSY-LHR route really aren't that high, I'd also like to point out that DL has a club in MSY and AA does not.
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LAX772LR
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:19 am

Midwestindy wrote:
SkyTeam is really falling behind One World in MSY (with LHR service at very high prices)

Fares on the MSY-LHR route really aren't that high[/quote]
Oh yes they are.

The flaw in using that as a comparison (which BTW, are fare estimates, not actual data) is that you're not factoring in that essentially every higher fare route is a (at least season) 4class operation.

MSY has commonly been the highest fare yearround 3class LHR offering BA has to N.America, sometimes vying back and forth with BWI.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Polot
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:01 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
SkyTeam is really falling behind One World in MSY (with LHR service at very high prices)

Fares on the MSY-LHR route really aren't that high
Oh yes they are.

The flaw in using that as a comparison (which BTW, are fare estimates, not actual data) is that you're not factoring in that essentially every higher fare route is a (at least season) 4class operation.

MSY has commonly been the highest fare yearround 3class LHR offering BA has to N.America, sometimes vying back and forth with BWI.

Yield per a mile (or km) would also probably be a better measurement than average fare vs length. I’m lazy and not calculating that out for every destination on the chart.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:20 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
I expect BNA will get a flight to AMS or CDG, but probably not until the new IAB opens.


They could do one now if timed right. I think it’ll happen within the next 2-3 years.


Maybe summer seasonal, I don't see the business case of why it would happen now. BA just increased to daily, and LFs had been average subdaily before the switch(outside of June/July). Adding another year-round flight on top of that for next summer may not be the best idea.


Which is why it shouldn’t happen this year. As you pointed out, BA needs a bit more time to mature and the Sky Club needs to be expanded. I’m thinking 2021 or 2022.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:46 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
SkyTeam is really falling behind One World in MSY (with LHR service at very high prices)

Fares on the MSY-LHR route really aren't that high

Oh yes they are.

The flaw in using that as a comparison (which BTW, are fare estimates, not actual data) is that you're not factoring in that essentially every higher fare route is a (at least season) 4class operation.

MSY has commonly been the highest fare yearround 3class LHR offering BA has to N.America, sometimes vying back and forth with BWI.[/quote]

And the problem with your comparison is that you are comparing MSY prices to airports with much more competition in TATL service, which in theory should have lower fares than MSY.

You should be comparing MSY prices to CVG/RDU-CDG which are much more comparable routes (which have higher fares)
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airtrantpa
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:19 pm

I know it’s not sky team but with Delta’s share in VS I would love to see some VS TPA-MAN/GLA/EDI. But I highly doubt it with VS large MCO ops. One can dream can’t I?
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fedex1
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:21 pm

How’s CDG - IND doing?!?
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:53 pm

airtrantpa wrote:
I know it’s not sky team but with Delta’s share in VS I would love to see some VS TPA-MAN/GLA/EDI. But I highly doubt it with VS large MCO ops. One can dream can’t I?


I was wondering if VS (being pretty much Skyteam, without actually being Skyteam) would count as valid in this thread!

Their MAN S20 schedule is yet to be announced, so you might get lucky (FWIW - if VS operate another route from MAN-Florida my money would be on MIA).
 
NolaMD88fan
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:31 am

I have no dog in any fights, and would be pleased to see DL continue to expand beyond the ATL fortress hub with new TATL flying from either existing hubs/focus cities or other markets. What's good for the goose is also good for the gander.

Anyway, someone was wondering how yields compared based on the chart above. Rough calculations using fare over distance gave an average yield/km of 0.0779 cents on the US dollar for all BA stations in the US that are still flown today. I excluded FLL and OAK since those routes have been discontinued. Also, remember that this does not take into account load factors. RASM is a far more useful metric. A route can have a high yield, but if it's flying half empty it still may not make money. Unfortunately, I don't know the time frame of this fare snapshot, so I have no way of accurately determining RASM.

PHL was the highest yielding market at 0.0982 cents/km. LAX was the lowest yielding market at 0.0558 cents/km. This is not a surprise given the longer distance of the LAX route.

1. PHL....$0.0982/km
2. ATL.....$0.0930/km
3. DFW...$0.0909/km
4. BNA....$0.0907/km
5. CHS....$0.0894/km
6. IAH.....$0.0874/km
7. BWI....$0.0864/km
8. IAD.....$0.0862/km
9. PHX....$0.0825/km
10. SAN....$0.0821/km
11. ORD....$0.0809/km
12. PIT.......$0.0802/km
13. BOS....$0.0790/km
T14. JFK.....$0.0765/km
T14. AUS....$0.0765/km
15. MSY....$0.0752/km
16. EWR...$0.0744/km
17. LAS.....$0.0719/km
18. TPA.....$0.0711/km
19. MCO....$0.0709/km
20. MIA....$0.0702/km
21. SEA....$0.0699/km
22. DEN....$0.0679/km
23. SFO....$0.0625/km
24. SJC....$0.0561/km
25. LAX....$0.0558/km

Things that stand out. SAN is outperforming all of the other west coast markets. Good for them!
Yield clustering in NYC, Bal-Wash, and Florida airports.
DEN is underperforming (very surprised by this).
BNA and CHS doing very well with no competition in the TATL market as of now. Also, good start for PIT.
MSY and AUS have similar yields near the station average (kind of surprised by this). I thought AUS would be higher.
ATL and IAH performing very well for BA despite being competing alliances hubs.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:39 am

NolaMD88fan wrote:
I have no dog in any fights, and would be pleased to see DL continue to expand beyond the ATL fortress hub with new TATL flying from either existing hubs/focus cities or other markets. What's good for the goose is also good for the gander.

Anyway, someone was wondering how yields compared based on the chart above. Rough calculations using fare over distance gave an average yield/km of 0.0779 cents on the US dollar for all BA stations in the US that are still flown today. I excluded FLL and OAK since those routes have been discontinued. Also, remember that this does not take into account load factors. RASM is a far more useful metric. A route can have a high yield, but if it's flying half empty it still may not make money. Unfortunately, I don't know the time frame of this fare snapshot, so I have no way of accurately determining RASM.

PHL was the highest yielding market at 0.0982 cents/km. LAX was the lowest yielding market at 0.0558 cents/km. This is not a surprise given the longer distance of the LAX route.

1. PHL....$0.0982/km
2. ATL.....$0.0930/km
3. DFW...$0.0909/km
4. BNA....$0.0907/km
5. CHS....$0.0894/km
6. IAH.....$0.0874/km
7. BWI....$0.0864/km
8. IAD.....$0.0862/km
9. PHX....$0.0825/km
10. SAN....$0.0821/km
11. ORD....$0.0809/km
12. PIT.......$0.0802/km
13. BOS....$0.0790/km
T14. JFK.....$0.0765/km
T14. AUS....$0.0765/km
15. MSY....$0.0752/km
16. EWR...$0.0744/km
17. LAS.....$0.0719/km
18. TPA.....$0.0711/km
19. MCO....$0.0709/km
20. MIA....$0.0702/km
21. SEA....$0.0699/km
22. DEN....$0.0679/km
23. SFO....$0.0625/km
24. SJC....$0.0561/km
25. LAX....$0.0558/km

Things that stand out. SAN is outperforming all of the other west coast markets. Good for them!
Yield clustering in NYC, Bal-Wash, and Florida airports.
DEN is underperforming (very surprised by this).
BNA and CHS doing very well with no competition in the TATL market as of now. Also, good start for PIT.
MSY and AUS have similar yields near the station average (kind of surprised by this). I thought AUS would be higher.
ATL and IAH performing very well for BA despite being competing alliances hubs.


Nice to see CHS doing so well, starting at 2 weekly flights.

LAX might not be doing so well given the fact that there’s 9 flights a day(3 by BA) on 5 carriers. 4 if you want to include the AA/BA JV.

AUS probably isn’t doing as you’d expect because they’re competing with Norwegian over at Gatwick.
 
SueD
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Re: Skyteam TATL 2020?

Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:13 am

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Depending on how the Alitalia deal goes, I could see them bulk up MXP and FCO, not to the extent of CDG and AMS of course but I could see 5-10 departures eventually. A longshot for 2020 though.

I would love to see MSY and AUS.


You do realise that Alitalia will be out of the joint venture under to DOT recommendations for new joint venture and anti trust immunity proposed to include Virgin Atlantic .

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