mzlin
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S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:00 pm

Headline is 737 almost ran out of runway

Reality is it completely ran out of runway; looks like it managed to get wheels up right after the pavement, hitting lights along the way. If there had been any structure or hill at the end, it would have been a very bad result.

Scary video at: https://samchui.com/2019/08/08/s7-boein ... w-airport/
Last edited by mzlin on Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
sw733
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:02 pm

Well, that's frightening as hell...
 
Tommo4828
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:03 pm

Was that a flapless take off?
 
FCAFLYBOY
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:20 pm

Oh my goodness! That was more than a close call! The passengers and crew must have thought it was curtains.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:26 pm

Yikes! That is scary.

BTW, The 737's are operated by Globus not S7.
 
aviationjunky
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:29 pm

Why wouldn't they abort take-off if they didn't see the aircraft lifting when it was suppose to??
LAS is Life
 
bennett123
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:36 pm

According to Wikipedia, runway 32L is almost 11,500 feet long.

How on earth did a B737NG almost run off the end?.
 
alasizon
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:39 pm

bennett123 wrote:
According to Wikipedia, runway 32L is almost 11,500 feet long.

How on earth did a B737NG almost run off the end?.


Watching the video, you can see the aircraft is struggling to gain lift. In fact it looks like it was a foot or two in the air when it settled back down into the dirt again and eventually gained enough lift to take-off.
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ikolkyo
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:44 pm

Wow and they decided to continue on with the flight? Seriously? Definitely some sort of calculation error in play here.
 
DUSdude
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:44 pm

alasizon wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
According to Wikipedia, runway 32L is almost 11,500 feet long.

How on earth did a B737NG almost run off the end?.


Watching the video, you can see the aircraft is struggling to gain lift. In fact it looks like it was a foot or two in the air when it settled back down into the dirt again and eventually gained enough lift to take-off.


I don't see any "settling back down". What you see is the engines kicking up dirt after the aircraft exits the paved area.
 
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vatveng
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:44 pm

bennett123 wrote:
According to Wikipedia, runway 32L is almost 11,500 feet long.

How on earth did a B737NG almost run off the end?.


From the blog post:
The cause of this incident is not yet confirmed; some Russian Aviation websites report that the crew computed takeoff performance using a takeoff weight 15 tons below the real weight, another claims the crew inadvertently entered Zero Fuel Weight instead of the Takeoff Weight.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:49 pm

[*]
Tommo4828 wrote:
Was that a flapless take off?


Couldn’t tell, but I’m wondering the same thing.

Or was this an intersection take off?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:05 pm

vatveng wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
According to Wikipedia, runway 32L is almost 11,500 feet long.

How on earth did a B737NG almost run off the end?.


From the blog post:
The cause of this incident is not yet confirmed; some Russian Aviation websites report that the crew computed takeoff performance using a takeoff weight 15 tons below the real weight, another claims the crew inadvertently entered Zero Fuel Weight instead of the Takeoff Weight.


Any experienced 737 pilot would have known that the thrust was inadequate for the load just by the sound of the engines and the speed they were attaining down the runway. They should have shut things down immediately before getting to this point. They should both be fired.
 
AngelsDecay
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:07 pm

http://avherald.com/h?article=4cb53df5&opt=0

Using 15 tonnes for ZFW instead of TOW its always a nice perspective...OTH you pay for it, you use it ;)

Tanx God "only" 3.500 mts of rwy for a giant 738...
Last edited by AngelsDecay on Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
barney captain
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:09 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
vatveng wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
According to Wikipedia, runway 32L is almost 11,500 feet long.

How on earth did a B737NG almost run off the end?.


From the blog post:
The cause of this incident is not yet confirmed; some Russian Aviation websites report that the crew computed takeoff performance using a takeoff weight 15 tons below the real weight, another claims the crew inadvertently entered Zero Fuel Weight instead of the Takeoff Weight.


Any experienced 737 pilot would have known that the thrust was inadequate for the load just by the sound of the engines and the speed they were attaining down the runway. They should have shut things down immediately before getting to this point. They should both be fired.



Agreed. At some point self-preservation should have taken over and those thrust levers should have meet with the center MFD.
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Pontius
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:13 pm

aviationjunky wrote:
Why wouldn't they abort take-off if they didn't see the aircraft lifting when it was suppose to??


Takeoff performance is predicated on achieving 3 calculated speeds, most notably V1, "takeoff decision speed." Once the takeoff roll begins, achieving these speeds is the only measurable objective. Runway remaining versus runway required is not known or measured. If acceleration is lower than planned, or if the calculated speeds or thrust setting is incorrect, the scenario in the video happens.

Also, note that in very many takeoffs, V1 occurs mere seconds prior to reaching the end of the runway. In the video scenario, after recognition of a problem there would be an extremely short window in which one had the option of both a successful abort and successfully rotation. Since they lived, it actually looks like they may have made the best of a bad situation.
 
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:16 pm

Wow. That sure is scary.

I must wonder if this was an intersection takeoff. It would also appear that a tailstrike took place. I wonder if this was audible in the cabin. Surely if it was it would've been reported to the crew on the flight deck.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:18 pm

100 knots indicated at 3,000’ is a pretty good gouge for acceleration. Now, that’s why distance remaining signboards are good. Also, you should be at no more than 100 knots with 3,000’ remaining. Also, why I missed accel checks.


GF
 
T4thH
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:40 pm

That was close, especially as when it was in the air, it was still extreme slow lifting. Was there additional a tail strike (if not, than it was next to one)?

Someone will get some additional training (or will get the chance to look for a new job opportunity).
 
bradyj23
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:45 pm

Pontius wrote:
aviationjunky wrote:
Why wouldn't they abort take-off if they didn't see the aircraft lifting when it was suppose to??


Takeoff performance is predicated on achieving 3 calculated speeds, most notably V1, "takeoff decision speed." Once the takeoff roll begins, achieving these speeds is the only measurable objective. Runway remaining versus runway required is not known or measured. If acceleration is lower than planned, or if the calculated speeds or thrust setting is incorrect, the scenario in the video happens.

Also, note that in very many takeoffs, V1 occurs mere seconds prior to reaching the end of the runway. In the video scenario, after recognition of a problem there would be an extremely short window in which one had the option of both a successful abort and successfully rotation. Since they lived, it actually looks like they may have made the best of a bad situation.


This is the correct answer. Go read about Balanced Field Length. The fact that the runway was so long tells me it was probably an intersection takeoff.
 
wjcandee
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:10 pm

barney captain wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
vatveng wrote:

From the blog post:


Any experienced 737 pilot would have known that the thrust was inadequate for the load just by the sound of the engines and the speed they were attaining down the runway. They should have shut things down immediately before getting to this point. They should both be fired.



Agreed. At some point self-preservation should have taken over and those thrust levers should have meet with the center MFD.


Exactly my thought, captain. Automation complacency? When others were saying that they should have aborted, I was thinking why didn't they firewall the throttles?

On the other hand. this kind of error predates the auto throttle. Air Florida comes to mind, although there survival would have meant one's common sense overriding the faulty, iced over engine instruments. Like the Ameristar captain who aborted above V1 because his gut and thousands of hours in type told him immediately when he pulled back on the yoke that the plane wasn't going to fly, and after initially taking a raft of crap was lauded in the final NTSB report.
 
SEU
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:33 pm

Apparently the pilots put in the wrong weight for takeoff, so the power used was a lot less? If that is true, why didnt the pilots realise that the plane wasnt picking up enough knots and put full throttle at some point?

Weird and Lucky.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:53 pm

Interesting to note about the article: it mentioned two possible causes, and both of them were explained well. At other times, we have all read stories that might have featured the wrong plane, the wrong airline, and the wrong technical details. It happens. This source was quite good!

Of course, I'd rather it hadn't happened at all, but everyone is safe, the plane will be repaired, and life will go on.
 
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OA940
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:03 am

Yikes! Gotta be pretty unsettling. Also considering the length of the runway I'm willing to bet this was an intersection takeoff
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maint123
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:43 am

No automation system in place to automatically reject obviously wrong weight inputs?
What's the normal weight variation in a similar aircraft?
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:58 am

maint123 wrote:
No automation system in place to automatically reject obviously wrong weight inputs?
What's the normal weight variation in a similar aircraft?


I believe that if it is below the minimum zfw the FMC will not accept the number. The 737 has a pretty large range of different numbers when it comes to weights so it is entirely possible that they punched in the ZFW and did the calculation based on the ZFW rather than the actual take-off weight (could be up to a 45 thousand pound difference). I would hope that they double-check these things but that is what you get with aviation in that part of the world.

The ZFW on one flight could be the take off weight on the next flight so it would be hard to set up an automatic system to do that outside of an acars connection that can automatically fill out the performance page with the pilots reviewing it and comparing it to the flight plan (how a ton of carriers do it)
Last edited by SierraPacific on Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:02 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
triple3driver
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:58 am

The worst part to me is that not once does something click in either pilot's heads that they don't have nearly enough thrust. And I mean, in the 737, you hit the TOGA switch, and the plane starts to climb very rapidly, seems like even after lifting off they didn't increase thrust, which I just will never understand
If you can walk away from it intact, it was a good landing!
 
maint123
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:23 am

SierraPacific wrote:
maint123 wrote:
No automation system in place to automatically reject obviously wrong weight inputs?
What's the normal weight variation in a similar aircraft?


I believe that if it is below the minimum zfw the FMC will not accept the number. The 737 has a pretty large range of different numbers when it comes to weights so it is entirely possible that they punched in the ZFW and did the calculation based on the ZFW rather than the actual take-off weight (could be up to a 45 thousand pound difference). I would hope that they double-check these things but that is what you get with aviation in that part of the world.

The ZFW on one flight could be the take off weight on the next flight so it would be hard to set up an automatic system to do that outside of an acars connection that can automatically fill out the performance page with the pilots reviewing it and comparing it to the flight plan (how a ton of carriers do it)

Zfw is the actual weight minus the usable fuel weight, but for a aircraft to take off, no one is going to fill it a liter above zfw. Suppose the plane takes a maximum of 5000 kg of fuel, but for all practical purposes, a plane will take off with at least 50% of max fuel. So the minimum fuel limit can be kept at 50 % and anything below this would result in a error.
Of course in abnormal conditions of a near empty plane flying, the pilot will get extra thrust during take off, which is bad for fuel economy and wear tear but not a safety risk.
 
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GE90man
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:57 am

Well you know what they say in Russia, pay for the whole runway, use the whole runway
 
cpd
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:00 am

How do you not know that something is seriously wrong with the plane not performing as expected? Surely if the engines were not at proper power you'd have put them full throttle immediately.
 
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par13del
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:11 am

So is this a case of the power of the bean counters who mandate that to maintain a high time on wing the engines for take off must be set to what the computer calculates as it is infallible, so even though they see the a/c speed not building as it should, the end of the runway getting closer and closer, their undying fear of management and full faith and confidence in the computer calculations let's them sit there staring disaster in the face.
Of course it could also be that as pilots they are unaware of the abbreviation GIGO.

Happy that there were no injuries and the a/c will survive to fly another day.
 
Pontius
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:37 am

cpd wrote:
How do you not know that something is seriously wrong with the plane not performing as expected? Surely if the engines were not at proper power you'd have put them full throttle immediately.


You just calculated, wrote down/typed, briefed, and selected your power setting for this takeoff. It is the “proper power” setting. It just happens to be wrong for the actual conditions. This is exactly how errors in complex systems work.

For context: Nearly every operator uses flex thrust settings, which can be as little as 70% of full rated thrust. Only saves engine wear, not fuel. The felt, perceived acceleration between a light aircraft departing JFK (long sea level runway, low thrust setting) and a heavy aircraft leaving JAC (high elevation short runway with obstacles on departure, high thrust setting) is wildly different. These routine differences make it hard to call exactly how a takeoff is proceeding early on. Every takeoff in MDW (short runway with a blast fence at the end) looks ill-fated from the cockpit, an abort downright impossible, but reliance on accurate numbers make it all work.
 
cpd
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:44 am

Pontius wrote:
cpd wrote:
How do you not know that something is seriously wrong with the plane not performing as expected? Surely if the engines were not at proper power you'd have put them full throttle immediately.


You just calculated, wrote down/typed, briefed, and selected your power setting for this takeoff. It is the “proper power” setting. It just happens to be wrong for the actual conditions. This is exactly how errors in complex systems work.

For context: Nearly every operator uses flex thrust settings, which can be as little as 70% of full rated thrust. Only saves engine wear, not fuel. The felt, perceived acceleration between a light aircraft departing JFK (long sea level runway, low thrust setting) and a heavy aircraft leaving JAC (high elevation short runway with obstacles on departure, high thrust setting) is wildly different. These routine differences make it hard to call exactly how a takeoff is proceeding early on. Every takeoff in MDW (short runway with a blast fence at the end) looks ill-fated from the cockpit, an abort downright impossible, but reliance on accurate numbers make it all work.


Regardless of what the computer tells you, your instincts should be kicking in, hang on a moment something doesn't seem right - what is happening and what do I need to do about it?
 
cschleic
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:46 am

DUSdude wrote:
alasizon wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
According to Wikipedia, runway 32L is almost 11,500 feet long.

How on earth did a B737NG almost run off the end?.


Watching the video, you can see the aircraft is struggling to gain lift. In fact it looks like it was a foot or two in the air when it settled back down into the dirt again and eventually gained enough lift to take-off.


I don't see any "settling back down". What you see is the engines kicking up dirt after the aircraft exits the paved area.


Watching it several times, looks like the wheels hit a bit of the dirt past the runway before it lifted off. Yikes.
 
Avgeek21
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:16 am

It all comes down to performance calculation diligence and experience. At my company (737 too) we calculate the performance independantly. Then we crosscheck it before it’s entered in the FMC. We then check if the FMC given grossweight shown is the same as what we expect on the flightplan and loadsheet. You should know your rough speeds and thrust settings after flying the 737 for a while. Alarm bells should be ringing in this case. Balanced field takeoffs are fine as long as you calculate your performance properly. At my company we cannot change intersections once we are on the move. Performance is done on stand and you have to go with what runway position you used. We can only change it if we stop, put the parking brake on and again independantly run the performance, write it down on the flightplan and brief the changes. This actively discourages a change of plans as it just takes too long. A good safeguard as people will always try and cut corners. Thats when safety gets compromised.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:05 am

Reminds me of the EK-A345-accident in Australia some years ago ...
 
SKCPH
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:17 am

Regardless of what the computer tells you, your instincts should be kicking in, hang on a moment something doesn't seem right - what is happening and what do I need to do about it?


cpd.....you cant fly transport category aircraft by the seat of your pants. You must rely on what the aircraft tells you. There is no measure of acceleration in relation to takeoff performance, in any of the aircraft I have flown, F28, MD80/90, Dash 8, CRJ or A320. The bus has an arrow to show you the rate of speed increase, but it is not referenced to performance.

Now, once the realization has come to you that there is something not right, your decision making becomes paramount. I don’t know what the crew did or did not do, so I will sit this one out for now.
Rgds,

SKCPH
 
Armadillo1
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:24 am

by russian forum,
TOW input was correct.

tower ask them to take-off from intersection in last minute, and they did not change input data for runway length.
 
cpd
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:25 am

SKCPH wrote:
Regardless of what the computer tells you, your instincts should be kicking in, hang on a moment something doesn't seem right - what is happening and what do I need to do about it?


cpd.....you cant fly transport category aircraft by the seat of your pants. You must rely on what the aircraft tells you. There is no measure of acceleration in relation to takeoff performance, in any of the aircraft I have flown, F28, MD80/90, Dash 8, CRJ or A320. The bus has an arrow to show you the rate of speed increase, but it is not referenced to performance.

Now, once the realization has come to you that there is something not right, your decision making becomes paramount. I don’t know what the crew did or did not do, so I will sit this one out for now.


Well, I'm staying out of it for now. But looks like I'm not the only one who is rather incredulous that they didn't seem to notice something wrong. The following finally answers some of the questions, if it is right:

Armadillo1 wrote:
by russian forum,
TOW input was correct.

tower ask them to take-off from intersection in last minute, and they did not change input data for runway length.
 
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FredrikHAD
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:34 am

SKCPH wrote:
Regardless of what the computer tells you, your instincts should be kicking in, hang on a moment something doesn't seem right - what is happening and what do I need to do about it?


cpd.....you cant fly transport category aircraft by the seat of your pants. You must rely on what the aircraft tells you.

At some point they have had to realize something was wrong. If the calculations were off, they could just firewall the throttles (or press TOGA). Even pilots have a survival instinct in most cases. Sure, modern airliners need automation, but in a situation like this, experience must count for something, otherwise we can just as well do away with pilots and let the computers fly on their own. This is of course assuming there was nothing wrong with the aircraft, like a temporary engine failure, but since they proceeded to the destination, that seems very unlikely.

/Fredrik
 
debonair
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:39 am

GE90man wrote:
Well you know what they say in Russia, pay for the whole runway, use the whole runway


Yeap, seems to me like a normal, old school, Russian take off... Who is not remembering the IL86 take-off from Phuket Airport in the '90s well after the piano keys... :duck:
 
ikarlson
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:42 am

Armadillo1 wrote:
by russian forum,
TOW input was correct.

tower ask them to take-off from intersection in last minute, and they did not change input data for runway length.


Sounds like Lokomotiv Yaroslavl tragedy..
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:58 am

debonair wrote:
GE90man wrote:
Well you know what they say in Russia, pay for the whole runway, use the whole runway


Yeap, seems to me like a normal, old school, Russian take off... Who is not remembering the IL86 take-off from Phuket Airport in the '90s well after the piano keys... :duck:


There is also this Il-76...

https://youtu.be/aWtdtuspnoM
 
Blotto
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:13 am

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... v#2191e816

Looks like they used 32L/A8 instead of the complete runway. If they didn't recalculate, well, DME needs a new fence...
 
Viper911
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:35 am

GE90man wrote:
Well you know what they say in Russia, pay for the whole runway, use the whole runway


debonair wrote:
GE90man wrote:
Well you know what they say in Russia, pay for the whole runway, use the whole runway


Yeap, seems to me like a normal, old school, Russian take off... Who is not remembering the IL86 take-off from Phuket Airport in the '90s well after the piano keys... :duck:


It has nothing to do with Russia, these type of incidents happen every few years, EK407 in SYD or QR778 in MIA are just to name a few. The difference is that this one was caught on tape. Pilots are human and therefore prone to do mistakes.

Viper911
 
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Lingon
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:00 am

Having actual acceleration compared to expected acceleration would be neither very hard to implement nor very expensive. There has been too many close calls due to erroneous weights in takeoff calculations.
 
Chasensfo
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:54 am

Yikes, flying 2+ hours after dragging across runway lights and dirt? Interesting. Oh well, still better than taking some MIA approach lights on a trip to DOH. :)
 
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par13del
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:13 pm

So the indicators that show V1 do not also show speed, I would assume that any 737 pilot would know the speed the a/c needs to fly, if that is not achieved and the runway is running out.........
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:36 pm

par13del wrote:
So the indicators that show V1 do not also show speed, I would assume that any 737 pilot would know the speed the a/c needs to fly, if that is not achieved and the runway is running out.........



So, what is your question?

Yes, speed is shown and known to the pilots.
Whatever
 
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GE90man
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Re: S7 flight runs off end of runway, barely takes off

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:24 pm

Viper911 wrote:
GE90man wrote:
Well you know what they say in Russia, pay for the whole runway, use the whole runway


debonair wrote:
GE90man wrote:
Well you know what they say in Russia, pay for the whole runway, use the whole runway


Yeap, seems to me like a normal, old school, Russian take off... Who is not remembering the IL86 take-off from Phuket Airport in the '90s well after the piano keys... :duck:


It has nothing to do with Russia, these type of incidents happen every few years, EK407 in SYD or QR778 in MIA are just to name a few. The difference is that this one was caught on tape. Pilots are human and therefore prone to do mistakes.

Viper911


It’s a joke

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