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enilria
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DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:53 am

This is only going to make it even more of a mess with airlines making the call in individual animals.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/08/politics ... index.html
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:59 am

Carriers have long had the call on individual animals per 14 CFR 382.117 The DOT issued 'clarification' that carriers can't ban specific breeds.
 
UPNYGuy
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:59 am

I would be totally happy to fly on an airline that does not permit emotional support animals. I know this is unlikely to occur, but I would be all for it.
 
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par13del
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:10 pm

How will this work when there are certain local jurisdictions who have banned pit bulls, and I am talking about if there are any such that surround an airport?
Will the local laws now have to be changed or rescinded because the Feds say such animals are free to travel?
I am only aware of local state's implementing laws on pit bulls, do not recall seeing any federal initiative to ban them.
 
danman132x
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:28 pm

This is kind of upsetting to me. At least airlines are able to individually choose, but I believe a blanket ban is better. The "emotional support" animal excuse has gotten way out of hand. Are people really that soft in this day and age that everyone needs "emotional" support?

What gets me is that there are genuinely people who need real support animals, and everyone else with these fake emotional support animals give the real ones a bad name. I went to a clinic not to long ago with my father and about 30% of people in there had service animals. You could almost immediately tell which ones were real and which ones weren't true service animals. They all had vests on, but it's far to easy to get on Amazon or ebay and buy a service vest for a dog and also a mail order "doctors certificate". The real service dogs were by their owners holding completely still, keeping lookout and didn't make a sound. Other people's dogs were laying there jumping at everyone walking by while the owner told the dog to "calm down", and another one was laying there whining the entire 20 minutes I was in the waiting room.

I feel bad for the real ones who truly help their owners. I can't always tell what dog is trained or not so they almost all are seen in a negative connotation in my mind, and I'm sure many others would agree with my viewpoint.

It needs to be MUCH harder to get a certificate, and have them certified in a national database somehow. Only then should dogs be able to fly with their owners, if proven they are True service animals.
 
jetwet1
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:35 pm

par13del wrote:
How will this work when there are certain local jurisdictions who have banned pit bulls, and I am talking about if there are any such that surround an airport?
Will the local laws now have to be changed or rescinded because the Feds say such animals are free to travel?
I am only aware of local state's implementing laws on pit bulls, do not recall seeing any federal initiative to ban them.


It's down to the animals owner to know the laws of the jurisdiction they are traveling to, once the animal steps off the plane (assuming domestic flight) and hits the local jurisdiction those laws will apply.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:50 pm

UPNYGuy wrote:
I would be totally happy to fly on an airline that does not permit emotional support animals. I know this is unlikely to occur, but I would be all for it.


So am I. Luckily I live in Europe where emotional support animals are not really a thing. Most European airlines don't allow animals in the cabin anyway, or charge huge fees for them. It's very rare to see someone bring an animal on a plane in Europe.
 
airbazar
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:06 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
UPNYGuy wrote:
I would be totally happy to fly on an airline that does not permit emotional support animals. I know this is unlikely to occur, but I would be all for it.


So am I. Luckily I live in Europe where emotional support animals are not really a thing. Most European airlines don't allow animals in the cabin anyway, or charge huge fees for them. It's very rare to see someone bring an animal on a plane in Europe.


There are many factors here. For starters pet ownership in Europe is lot lower than in the U.S. Secondly pet owners in the U.S. consider their pet a member of their family. That's less so in other parts of the world. Thirdly, Europe and Western Europe in particular is more condensed than the U.S. so people with pets can travel by car and train.
Personally I have absolutely no problem with pets or service animals on the plane. I'd much rather get rid of drunk, obnoxious, loud passengers.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:09 pm

The article speaks about "Guidelines". So, these DOT guidelines are just that: voluntary to follow, or have those guidelines the same standing as Law?
 
zuckie13
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:27 pm

How many airlines actually require some soft of medical documentation from passengers who want to have an emotional support animal. I know the law allows them to require it, but does not force it. I'm wondering if most don't require it and maybe they should. That would certainly cut down on the number of these animals they see to begin with.
 
jayunited
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:37 pm

airbazar wrote:
Personally I have absolutely no problem with pets or service animals on the plane. I'd much rather get rid of drunk, obnoxious, loud passengers.


I have no issues with service animals they have and should always be allowed in the cabin. Someones pet is not a service animal and this is where there needs to be strict distinction. An emotional support animal is someones pet it is not a service animal and as we have seen over the past few years passengers and crew members have been bitten by emotional support animals because they have not be trained on how to deal with the increased stress that comes with flying on a extremely crowed aircraft.

I think the DOT is correct a breed shouldn't be singled out, but on the much broader issue of emotional support animals in the cabin they have punted the ball back to the airlines. In my opinion the issue of emotional support animals in the cabin will end up in the court system. If a pet attacks a person on the ground the owner is responsible if an emotional support animal attacks someone in the air can the airline be held liable because the customer service agent allowed the animal to board?
This ruling continues to leave airlines exposed to lawsuits as a direct result of someone pet being in the cabin as an emotional support animal.
 
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enilria
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:05 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Carriers have long had the call on individual animals per 14 CFR 382.117 The DOT issued 'clarification' that carriers can't ban specific breeds.

But it is more judgement calls without hard rules
 
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enilria
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:10 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
How many airlines actually require some soft of medical documentation from passengers who want to have an emotional support animal. I know the law allows them to require it, but does not force it. I'm wondering if most don't require it and maybe they should. That would certainly cut down on the number of these animals they see to begin with.

I'm all for that. Get an Emotional Support ID badge issued by the government with a pic of the person and the animal and require it.
Dieuwer wrote:
The article speaks about "Guidelines". So, these DOT guidelines are just that: voluntary to follow, or have those guidelines the same standing as Law?

My understanding is that a DOT directive is the same as a law as it relates to airlines, probably because there is another law that gives the DOT rule-making authority. They can be challenged in court, of course. I would also say that DOT rules supercede local laws, but DOT cannot require airports to allow Pit Bulls as I understand it because they do not have that rulemaking authority. Delta could probably get their hubs to disallow pit bulls and effectively achieve the same thing by telling passengers that if they bring the animal into e.g. ATL they will be arrested.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:11 pm

UPNYGuy wrote:

I would be totally happy to fly on an airline that does not permit emotional support animals. I know this is unlikely to occur, but I would be all for it.


A trained service animal is not the same as an emotional support animal but I'm with you on EMA ban.
TWA Hotel, Here I come. October, 2019 :airplane:
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:12 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
UPNYGuy wrote:

I would be totally happy to fly on an airline that does not permit emotional support animals. I know this is unlikely to occur, but I would be all for it.


A trained service animal is not the same as an emotional support animal but I'm with you on ESA ban.
TWA Hotel, Here I come. October, 2019 :airplane:
 
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Nomadd
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:26 pm

How about the emotions of the person sitting next to a strange pitbull for six hours?
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:54 pm

I feel the government has put the airlines in an untenable legal position with this ruling.

Airlines are required to accept all breeds of dogs as "Emotional Support Animals", even though everyone knows you can buy fake emotional support documentation easily. This means airlines are now subjected to legal liability if they refuse to carry an emotional support animal.

At the same time, though, if an emotional support animal attacks a passenger or a crew member, the airline will be sued for the physical and emotional pain of the attack.

No matter what an airline does, they will be sued!

An appropriate analogy would be this: if someone tried to gain access to a bar with an ID the bar owner suspected was fake, was denied alcohol, then turned around and sued the bar for emotional distress and discrimination. The bar stopped checking IDs afterward, then was sued after a 17 year old got drunk and severely injured someone else while driving home from that bar.

The DOT needs to do one of two things: either (1) ban all animals from the passenger cabins of aircraft other than seeing eye dogs - which is what 99% of air travelers would prefer, or (2) absolve the airlines and airports of legal liability should an animal the DOT required the airline to be carried in the cabin attack a passenger or crew member; the only legal recourse the injured person would have would be with the animal's owner and the issuer of the emotional support certification.

It is VERY unfair of the DOT to require airlines to carry animals on aircraft, and force the airlines to be liable for the injuries these animals inflict on passengers and crew members!
 
zuckie13
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:00 pm

enilria wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:
How many airlines actually require some soft of medical documentation from passengers who want to have an emotional support animal. I know the law allows them to require it, but does not force it. I'm wondering if most don't require it and maybe they should. That would certainly cut down on the number of these animals they see to begin with.

I'm all for that. Get an Emotional Support ID badge issued by the government with a pic of the person and the animal and require it.
Dieuwer wrote:
The article speaks about "Guidelines". So, these DOT guidelines are just that: voluntary to follow, or have those guidelines the same standing as Law?

My understanding is that a DOT directive is the same as a law as it relates to airlines, probably because there is another law that gives the DOT rule-making authority. They can be challenged in court, of course. I would also say that DOT rules supercede local laws, but DOT cannot require airports to allow Pit Bulls as I understand it because they do not have that rulemaking authority. Delta could probably get their hubs to disallow pit bulls and effectively achieve the same thing by telling passengers that if they bring the animal into e.g. ATL they will be arrested.


See 14 CFR 382.117 (e)

(e) If a passenger seeks to travel with an animal that is used as an emotional support or psychiatric service animal, you are not required to accept the animal for transportation in the cabin unless the passenger provides you current documentation (i.e., no older than one year from the date of the passenger's scheduled initial flight) on the letterhead of a licensed mental health professional (e.g., psychiatrist, psychologist, licensed clinical social worker, including a medical doctor specifically treating the passenger's mental or emotional disability) stating the following:

(1) The passenger has a mental or emotional disability recognized in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders - Fourth Edition (DSM IV);

(2) The passenger needs the emotional support or psychiatric service animal as an accommodation for air travel and/or for activity at the passenger's destination;

(3) The individual providing the assessment is a licensed mental health professional, and the passenger is under his or her professional care; and

(4) The date and type of the mental health professional's license and the state or other jurisdiction in which it was issued.
 
ikramerica
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:19 pm

They can't ban them, but can they require proof of training for a specific need?

Pitbulls make up the majority of dangerous encounters with dogs (encounters that result in permanent injury/death), and that is always defended as the "fault of the owner." Well, since the airline can't know how the dog was raised, it is by default an unsafe breed to carry in the cabin or even in a crate (they can chew through most things).

But if the dog is properly PROFESSIONALLY trained, it is as safe as any larger dog. Can the airlines require proof the dog was trained and then transfer liability to the owner that if they are misrepresenting the training of the animal, they are accountable?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:29 am

Ban them all. It won’t be the first time in history that the sins of a few punish the many. That’s the most equitable way to deal with the chaos it’s created.

As my parents told me, “This is why we can’t have nice things.”
 
EasternDC821
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:53 am

All animals should be banned from the cabin period . Another BS ruling from the US “justice” , what a F joke
 
FlyHappy
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:07 am

Easy Solution:

A certain individual, who has "Executive Powers", instructs the TSA that in the interest of national security, no animals of any kind, for any reason, shall be permitted thru any checkpoints into any airport.

No Legislative/DOT/FAA/Airline involvement at all.

Literally one person can solve the problem overnight; this "Executive Order" wouldn't be remotely close to many other overreaches easily upheld over many decades (in case anyone was inferring anything else).

Of course its not going to happen - there's no political gain; but it can solved that easily.
 
ryanov
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:30 am

Funny that many of the people who say things like "is everyone so soft now that they need an emotional support animal" are gung ho on military service and patriotism. Many emotional support animals are traveling with vets who have PTSD.

People wouldn't be attempting to game this system if airlines charged a reasonable amount to have pets in the cabin ($200 one way is not reasonable), and if we had policies, in general, that were more permissive towards pets.

I fly often, and usually one-stop itineraries. Can't even remember more than 1-2 flights where I encountered an animal, and they certainly weren't a problem.
 
rbavfan
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:50 am

par13del wrote:
How will this work when there are certain local jurisdictions who have banned pit bulls, and I am talking about if there are any such that surround an airport?
Will the local laws now have to be changed or rescinded because the Feds say such animals are free to travel?
I am only aware of local state's implementing laws on pit bulls, do not recall seeing any federal initiative to ban them.


The local laws can ban pit bulls and other breads of emotional support animals (ESA's), but they cannot bar Service Animal's trained Pit Bulls. It is not the airlines responsibility if you take a breed of animal that is banned into any jurisdiction. If you do most will have them put down. Thats would be thier fault for bringing the animal into that city.

After all the ADA is the non airline version of the law of the land. The ACAA should have followed it and not opened up emotional support animals on flights. They should have fully kept the choices of small dogs or cats inside carriers under the seat. ESA's were meant to comfort home bound patients.
 
B777LRF
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:02 am

airbazar wrote:
There are many factors here. For starters pet ownership in Europe is lot lower than in the U.S. Secondly pet owners in the U.S. consider their pet a member of their family. That's less so in other parts of the world. Thirdly, Europe and Western Europe in particular is more condensed than the U.S. so people with pets can travel by car and train.
Personally I have absolutely no problem with pets or service animals on the plane. I'd much rather get rid of drunk, obnoxious, loud passengers.


All that may be true, but there's two overriding differences: European lawmakers are not as stupid, nor is the general European as entitled, as an average American. Or, to put it differently: In the US the rights of the individual is king, whereas in Europe it's the community.
Signature. You just read one.
 
rbavfan
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:05 am

danman132x wrote:
This is kind of upsetting to me. At least airlines are able to individually choose, but I believe a blanket ban is better. The "emotional support" animal excuse has gotten way out of hand. Are people really that soft in this day and age that everyone needs "emotional" support?

What gets me is that there are genuinely people who need real support animals, and everyone else with these fake emotional support animals give the real ones a bad name. I went to a clinic not to long ago with my father and about 30% of people in there had service animals. You could almost immediately tell which ones were real and which ones weren't true service animals. They all had vests on, but it's far to easy to get on Amazon or ebay and buy a service vest for a dog and also a mail order "doctors certificate". The real service dogs were by their owners holding completely still, keeping lookout and didn't make a sound. Other people's dogs were laying there jumping at everyone walking by while the owner told the dog to "calm down", and another one was laying there whining the entire 20 minutes I was in the waiting room.

I feel bad for the real ones who truly help their owners. I can't always tell what dog is trained or not so they almost all are seen in a negative connotation in my mind, and I'm sure many others would agree with my viewpoint.

It needs to be MUCH harder to get a certificate, and have them certified in a national database somehow. Only then should dogs be able to fly with their owners, if proven they are True service animals.


Fully agree with you. There should be a registration card that each service animal gets when they complete training at a licensed facility. It should be renewable every few years as the service animals can loose their training as they age. Some have said that would be hardship for disabled people that have support dogs making them carry a card with them. Well "We" already have cards we have to carry for our healthcare and other things in life. Carrying a card to Prove our dog is Trained and Safe is not a hardship. Getting dirty looks & comments about the service dogs that are needed, because others abuse the system, Is A Hardship on the Disabled!
 
rbavfan
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:09 am

airbazar wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
UPNYGuy wrote:
I would be totally happy to fly on an airline that does not permit emotional support animals. I know this is unlikely to occur, but I would be all for it.


So am I. Luckily I live in Europe where emotional support animals are not really a thing. Most European airlines don't allow animals in the cabin anyway, or charge huge fees for them. It's very rare to see someone bring an animal on a plane in Europe.


There are many factors here. For starters pet ownership in Europe is lot lower than in the U.S. Secondly pet owners in the U.S. consider their pet a member of their family. That's less so in other parts of the world. Thirdly, Europe and Western Europe in particular is more condensed than the U.S. so people with pets can travel by car and train.
Personally I have absolutely no problem with pets or service animals on the plane. I'd much rather get rid of drunk, obnoxious, loud passengers.


Thumbs up on that last line.
 
rbavfan
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:10 am

Dieuwer wrote:
The article speaks about "Guidelines". So, these DOT guidelines are just that: voluntary to follow, or have those guidelines the same standing as Law?


Those guidelines would be law, not optional.
 
BUFJACK10
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:20 am

IMO there is a huge difference between a trained Service Animal (normally associated with a sight impaired individual) and an emotional support animal. Most emotional support animals have undergone little or no training and the certificates are issued by doctors who also would give a patient any prescription they request.

If someone needs an emotional support animal they should be required to provide proof the animal has undergone required training to ensure acceptable social behavior and provide proof of certification at check in. I agree that the emotional support animal policy is abused by passengers and they need to take the proper actions, not just a certificate, to ensure everyone’s safety on board. Many who bring on emotional support animals just think of themselves.
AA AK AL AQ AS B6 CO DL EA FL F9 HP KN NY MO NW PA PE PI RC QX TW UA UR US WN AF AN AO CS IB OA TR VS
A300 A319 A320 BAE146 BAC111 DC8 DC9 DC10 MD80 707 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 787 L10 F27 F28 F100 ERJ CRJ SE-210 SSC B1900 ATR42 ATR72 DH8 E120 SWM
 
rbavfan
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:34 am

enilria wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:
How many airlines actually require some soft of medical documentation from passengers who want to have an emotional support animal. I know the law allows them to require it, but does not force it. I'm wondering if most don't require it and maybe they should. That would certainly cut down on the number of these animals they see to begin with.

I'm all for that. Get an Emotional Support ID badge issued by the government with a pic of the person and the animal and require it.
Dieuwer wrote:
The article speaks about "Guidelines". So, these DOT guidelines are just that: voluntary to follow, or have those guidelines the same standing as Law?

My understanding is that a DOT directive is the same as a law as it relates to airlines, probably because there is another law that gives the DOT rule-making authority. They can be challenged in court, of course. I would also say that DOT rules supercede local laws, but DOT cannot require airports to allow Pit Bulls as I understand it because they do not have that rulemaking authority. Delta could probably get their hubs to disallow pit bulls and effectively achieve the same thing by telling passengers that if they bring the animal into e.g. ATL they will be arrested.


Cities can ban pit bulls as pets & ESA's. They cannot ban pit bulls as an ADA certified service animal as they have to follow the ADA which permits them. The ACAA is an expanded ADA spec specific to airlines, cities do not have to follow the ACAA outside the airport.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:35 am

airbazar wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
UPNYGuy wrote:
I would be totally happy to fly on an airline that does not permit emotional support animals. I know this is unlikely to occur, but I would be all for it.


So am I. Luckily I live in Europe where emotional support animals are not really a thing. Most European airlines don't allow animals in the cabin anyway, or charge huge fees for them. It's very rare to see someone bring an animal on a plane in Europe.


There are many factors here. For starters pet ownership in Europe is lot lower than in the U.S. Secondly pet owners in the U.S. consider their pet a member of their family. That's less so in other parts of the world. Thirdly, Europe and Western Europe in particular is more condensed than the U.S. so people with pets can travel by car and train.
Personally I have absolutely no problem with pets or service animals on the plane. I'd much rather get rid of drunk, obnoxious, loud passengers.


I love your last paragraph. I've had less service animal/emotional support animal encounters than I have loud/drunk/obnoxious/rude human passengers. I can only recall one flight out of hundreds I've had where a dog barked obsessively, and that was only during takeoff/landing.

I get people are trying to game the system, and I am against aggressive animals of any type injuring passengers or crew members, but humans are much more likely to lash out over an animal in my experiences.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
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rbavfan
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:45 am

ikramerica wrote:
They can't ban them, but can they require proof of training for a specific need?

Pitbulls make up the majority of dangerous encounters with dogs (encounters that result in permanent injury/death), and that is always defended as the "fault of the owner." Well, since the airline can't know how the dog was raised, it is by default an unsafe breed to carry in the cabin or even in a crate (they can chew through most things).

But if the dog is properly PROFESSIONALLY trained, it is as safe as any larger dog. Can the airlines require proof the dog was trained and then transfer liability to the owner that if they are misrepresenting the training of the animal, they are accountable?


There in lies the trouble. As there is no national list for trained dogs that matches their owners. No list for those that adopt them after they are no longer capable to be a service animal. There is no way to prove it is trained. The ADA allows only 2 questions; 1: Is this a service Animal. 2: what function does the animal perform. Not sure if the ACAA allows these questions for service animals or what they allow for ESA's.
 
rbavfan
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:54 am

ryanov wrote:
Funny that many of the people who say things like "is everyone so soft now that they need an emotional support animal" are gung ho on military service and patriotism. Many emotional support animals are traveling with vets who have PTSD.

People wouldn't be attempting to game this system if airlines charged a reasonable amount to have pets in the cabin ($200 one way is not reasonable), and if we had policies, in general, that were more permissive towards pets.

I fly often, and usually one-stop itineraries. Can't even remember more than 1-2 flights where I encountered an animal, and they certainly weren't a problem.


Legal PTSD and ADHD dogs are not ESA's. They are trained Service Animals. They perform a function. If the dog senses the PTSD or ADHD person is going into an episode the animal jumps up, bumps or distracts the person so their concentration goes to them and not the troubling thoughts or actions they are having. That is a function. Your dog making you happy is not a physical function it's an Emotional Support Function. So no the ones allowed on plane with Vets are not emotional support animals.

Also most Cabs, Limo's, Uber & Lift charge over $200 or more if you or your pet makes a mess. Most apartments charge $50-$150 a month for pets in an apartment. Hotels charge large fees for pets in rooms. WHY is an airline being unreasonable with this charge if the others are not?
 
Olddog
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:59 am

Just curious. Are theses pets allowed to go on the plane without a muzzle ? I love dogs, still own one (épagneul breton ) and have owned several hunting dogs but I will never sit near a pitbull without muzzle. In France anyway, they must wear one by law.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:33 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
Easy Solution:

A certain individual, who has "Executive Powers", instructs the TSA that in the interest of national security, no animals of any kind, for any reason, shall be permitted thru any checkpoints into any airport.

No Legislative/DOT/FAA/Airline involvement at all.

Literally one person can solve the problem overnight; this "Executive Order" wouldn't be remotely close to many other overreaches easily upheld over many decades (in case anyone was inferring anything else).

Of course its not going to happen - there's no political gain; but it can solved that easily.

It won't happen because an Executive Order can't circumvent a law. The ADA requires reasonable accommodations be made, and legitimate service animals.

Emotional support animals, in a minority of cases, also qualify.
 
greendot
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:50 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
Easy Solution:

A certain individual, who has "Executive Powers", instructs the TSA that in the interest of national security, no animals of any kind, for any reason, shall be permitted thru any checkpoints into any airport.

No Legislative/DOT/FAA/Airline involvement at all.

Literally one person can solve the problem overnight; this "Executive Order" wouldn't be remotely close to many other overreaches easily upheld over many decades (in case anyone was inferring anything else).

Of course its not going to happen - there's no political gain; but it can solved that easily.


Not really.... an executive order cannot violate the Constitution or any other law. That's why the TSA and other civilian police cannot ban you from video recording them. Banning emotional support animals might also giolate the Americans With Disabilities Act, and so forth. The president can't just executive order-away a CFR.
 
greendot
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:55 pm

rbavfan wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
They can't ban them, but can they require proof of training for a specific need?

Pitbulls make up the majority of dangerous encounters with dogs (encounters that result in permanent injury/death), and that is always defended as the "fault of the owner." Well, since the airline can't know how the dog was raised, it is by default an unsafe breed to carry in the cabin or even in a crate (they can chew through most things).

But if the dog is properly PROFESSIONALLY trained, it is as safe as any larger dog. Can the airlines require proof the dog was trained and then transfer liability to the owner that if they are misrepresenting the training of the animal, they are accountable?


There in lies the trouble. As there is no national list for trained dogs that matches their owners. No list for those that adopt them after they are no longer capable to be a service animal. There is no way to prove it is trained. The ADA allows only 2 questions; 1: Is this a service Animal. 2: what function does the animal perform. Not sure if the ACAA allows these questions for service animals or what they allow for ESA's.


What is stopping airlines from creating special seating sections with walls and pooping areas for the dog? Sure, it could cost them a lot of $$$, but it is an option. Hotels, buildings in general, even websites, and virtually every shuttle that I go in, has all kinds of expensive modifications that take up more room than the average person and probably cost significantly more to implement than the seat of an average person.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 1415
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:17 pm

So why is this such a HUGE problem in the USA, but not in Europe?
 
Adipocere
Posts: 228
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:35 am

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:21 pm

Who carries liability if (or rather when) a pit bull mauls a fellow human passenger? The airline? The DOT? The loser owner? Or is the victim SOL?
 
Flaps
Posts: 1560
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 1:11 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:57 pm

The ADA comes into play here. That law is very strict when it comes to any form of discrimination against any type of "disability". Service animals are considered to be an extension of the person and restrictions n them can and are taken as discrimination against the person. Usually the recipient of a service animal has no say so as to the breed so right there you have an issue.
"Support" animals are a grayer area but still fall under the ADA. The upside of the ADA is that it is very clearly written and serves its intended constituency well. The downside is like any law, it's unintended consequences can lead to very unusual and unique situations.
Last edited by Flaps on Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1214
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:57 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
So why is this such a HUGE problem in the USA, but not in Europe?


Because in europe, theses pets are mostly not allowed in the cabin ?
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
EAARbrat
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:39 am

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:36 pm

Bra-freakin-vo!!!!!


ryanov wrote:
Funny that many of the people who say things like "is everyone so soft now that they need an emotional support animal" are gung ho on military service and patriotism. Many emotional support animals are traveling with vets who have PTSD.

People wouldn't be attempting to game this system if airlines charged a reasonable amount to have pets in the cabin ($200 one way is not reasonable), and if we had policies, in general, that were more permissive towards pets.

I fly often, and usually one-stop itineraries. Can't even remember more than 1-2 flights where I encountered an animal, and they certainly weren't a problem.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6071
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:25 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
So why is this such a HUGE problem in the USA, but not in Europe?


Pet owners being totally ignorant and selfish towards the needs of their animals and inconsiderate or even militant towards those who don't think loving animals equals owning them is a problem on both sides of the Atlantic. It's just manifested in different ways.
 
commpilot
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:21 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:44 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
enilria wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:
How many airlines actually require some soft of medical documentation from passengers who want to have an emotional support animal. I know the law allows them to require it, but does not force it. I'm wondering if most don't require it and maybe they should. That would certainly cut down on the number of these animals they see to begin with.

I'm all for that. Get an Emotional Support ID badge issued by the government with a pic of the person and the animal and require it.
Dieuwer wrote:
The article speaks about "Guidelines". So, these DOT guidelines are just that: voluntary to follow, or have those guidelines the same standing as Law?

My understanding is that a DOT directive is the same as a law as it relates to airlines, probably because there is another law that gives the DOT rule-making authority. They can be challenged in court, of course. I would also say that DOT rules supercede local laws, but DOT cannot require airports to allow Pit Bulls as I understand it because they do not have that rulemaking authority. Delta could probably get their hubs to disallow pit bulls and effectively achieve the same thing by telling passengers that if they bring the animal into e.g. ATL they will be arrested.


See 14 CFR 382.117 (e)

(e) If a passenger seeks to travel with an animal that is used as an emotional support or psychiatric service animal, you are not required to accept the animal for transportation in the cabin unless the passenger provides you current documentation (i.e., no older than one year from the date of the passenger's scheduled initial flight) on the letterhead of a licensed mental health professional (e.g., psychiatrist, psychologist, licensed clinical social worker, including a medical doctor specifically treating the passenger's mental or emotional disability) stating the following:

(1) The passenger has a mental or emotional disability recognized in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders - Fourth Edition (DSM IV);

(2) The passenger needs the emotional support or psychiatric service animal as an accommodation for air travel and/or for activity at the passenger's destination;

(3) The individual providing the assessment is a licensed mental health professional, and the passenger is under his or her professional care; and

(4) The date and type of the mental health professional's license and the state or other jurisdiction in which it was issued.


All of this easy to fake by buying a totally fake letter off an online store. Just Google: Emotional Support Animal ...It's a complete joke. It is the biggest scam that is run in the USA to avoid making people be law bidding citizens. Someone who deals with this day in an day out, the current laws force airline employees to be powerless to the public who defrauds the systems in place. There needs to be a registered national clearing house to officially hand out documents. The AMA would be great to handle that and they could help hold scamming doctors in check if the animal causes harm.
 
EAARbrat
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:39 am

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:29 am

All of you "this doesn't happen in Europe freaks" quickly forget that dogs are allowed everywhere else in Europe (supermarkets, restaurants, etc.).

All of this comes down to one thing, the greed of airlines to have the balls to charge more than $50 each way to bring a reasonable pet in cabin under the seat. As for emotional support don't be so quick to judge unless you've experienced the type psychological afflications many unfortunately suffer from due to the callous, selfish, profit only, unaccountable world we live in today.
 
DFWuser
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 5:52 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:11 am

Flaps wrote:
The ADA comes into play here. That law is very strict when it comes to any form of discrimination against any type of "disability". Service animals are considered to be an extension of the person and restrictions n them can and are taken as discrimination against the person. Usually the recipient of a service animal has no say so as to the breed so right there you have an issue.
"Support" animals are a grayer area but still fall under the ADA. The upside of the ADA is that it is very clearly written and serves its intended constituency well. The downside is like any law, it's unintended consequences can lead to very unusual and unique situations.



The ADA does NOT come into play here. Airlines are exempt from the ADA and are bound by a separate set of rules called the Air Carrier Access Act.

https://www.transportation.gov/airconsu ... sabilities
SF3 CR7 E75 M88 M90 L10 319 320 321 32B 332 333 343 388 712 722 732 733 73G 738 744 752 763 772 773 77W 788 789 78J
 
Babyshark
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:22 am

FlyHappy wrote:
Easy Solution:

A certain individual, who has "Executive Powers", instructs the TSA that in the interest of national security, no animals of any kind, for any reason, shall be permitted thru any checkpoints into any airport.

No Legislative/DOT/FAA/Airline involvement at all.

Literally one person can solve the problem overnight; this "Executive Order" wouldn't be remotely close to many other overreaches easily upheld over many decades (in case anyone was inferring anything else).

Of course its not going to happen - there's no political gain; but it can solved that easily.


And a judge in Hawaii appointed by the opposing party will issue an injunction. Its probably already filled out just the title and subject are needed, so theyll keyword search and change stuff and quickly file it before they realize they said "the ban on service animals was found to be unconstitutional because it is racist." :hyper:

But I wish he would do it. People scam the system so bad and put passengers in danger because their dog is so frien... sorry sorry sorry he never does this it must be your fault...
 
User avatar
EstherLouise
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:16 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:35 am

"Excuse me, sir. Would you please fetch my Achilles tendon from your damned rat dog chihuahua.... err.. service animal?"
712 722 732 734 737 738 741 742 744 752 762 772 A310 DC91 DC93 DC94 DC1030 DC1040 F100 MD82 MD83
 
Olddog
Posts: 1214
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:57 pm

EAARbrat wrote:
All of you "this doesn't happen in Europe freaks" quickly forget that dogs are allowed everywhere else in Europe (supermarkets, restaurants, etc.).

All of this comes down to one thing, the greed of airlines to have the balls to charge more than $50 each way to bring a reasonable pet in cabin under the seat. As for emotional support don't be so quick to judge unless you've experienced the type psychological afflications many unfortunately suffer from due to the callous, selfish, profit only, unaccountable world we live in today.


I don't now where you went in Europe but you should know that pets are banned from supermarkets and most shops for example. In Nice, where I live, all baches are also forbidden to pets...
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
slider
Posts: 7407
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:45 pm

ryanov wrote:
Funny that many of the people who say things like "is everyone so soft now that they need an emotional support animal" are gung ho on military service and patriotism. Many emotional support animals are traveling with vets who have PTSD.


More often than not, the profile of a dog owner in an airport is a middle aged overweight white broad. Emotional support my ass. I've seen it already this AM here thrice.

Vets-legit, sure. And they certainly are able to document their condition, unlike the superfluous snowflakes who just can't fathom going anywhere without their goddamn dog these days. Depending on where you live, the dog thing has gotten entirely out of hand...they're everywhere. Restaurants, bars, breweries, everywhere. Enough of this insanity.

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