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flyingclrs727
Posts: 2417
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:32 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Carriers have long had the call on individual animals per 14 CFR 382.117 The DOT issued 'clarification' that carriers can't ban specific breeds.


Then Congress should do it.
 
danman132x
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 4:57 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:00 pm

Remember this? https://youtu.be/TUW89U1aRRI

Imagine some untrained animal has a dump in the cabin and the owner is just as ignorant. Everyone would have to smell that crap the whole flight.
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1521
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:57 pm

They should probably ban Pit Bulls from the cockpit. Except that famous one from Miami, who's always in there.
 
mast2407
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:15 am

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:11 pm

I’m saying this as someone who has PTSD, and lives in Europe, and has ASD.

I love flying. It’s a dream to me.

I hate airports. Proper hate them. They pure stress me out. I cannot imagine a single instance where having an “emotional support animal”, that is, another thing to mind along with my passport, my belongings, my backpack, would make me less stressed out. Give me a pair of headphones, loud Bruce Springsteen, and a window, and I’m good to go.

If you “genuinely” have ASD, or PTSD, adding service dogs to the mix actually won’t help. It’ll make it worse. The cabin of an aircraft should be peaceful, quiet and relaxed, not full of pets. (Exaggeration, I know, but you get the point I’m sure).

I do not understand emotional support animals. If you are incapable of leaving the house without a dog to cheer you up, you need help. Do yourself a favor, get the help, that is coming from someone with ASD and PTSD.

This nonsense, thankfully, has not manifested on this side of the Atlantic. May that long be the case.
 
grbauc
Posts: 1445
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:02 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
UPNYGuy wrote:
I would be totally happy to fly on an airline that does not permit emotional support animals. I know this is unlikely to occur, but I would be all for it.


So am I. Luckily I live in Europe where emotional support animals are not really a thing. Most European airlines don't allow animals in the cabin anyway, or charge huge fees for them. It's very rare to see someone bring an animal on a plane in Europe.


For the most part its not super common here either. More purse dogs in some regions Id imagine then others.
 
grbauc
Posts: 1445
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:06 am

mast2407 wrote:
I’m saying this as someone who has PTSD, and lives in Europe, and has ASD.

I love flying. It’s a dream to me.

I hate airports. Proper hate them. They pure stress me out. I cannot imagine a single instance where having an “emotional support animal”, that is, another thing to mind along with my passport, my belongings, my backpack, would make me less stressed out. Give me a pair of headphones, loud Bruce Springsteen, and a window, and I’m good to go.

If you “genuinely” have ASD, or PTSD, adding service dogs to the mix actually won’t help. It’ll make it worse. The cabin of an aircraft should be peaceful, quiet and relaxed, not full of pets. (Exaggeration, I know, but you get the point I’m sure).

I do not understand emotional support animals. If you are incapable of leaving the house without a dog to cheer you up, you need help. Do yourself a favor, get the help, that is coming from someone with ASD and PTSD.

This nonsense, thankfully, has not manifested on this side of the Atlantic. May that long be the case.



Thank you for sharing. There is a Real need and unfortunately there are too many abusing it that all it takes is to go to a dog park and see the amount of people that don't train or have poorly trained animals that have no clue on the proper care of animals.
 
grbauc
Posts: 1445
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:59 am

ikramerica wrote:
They can't ban them, but can they require proof of training for a specific need?

Pitbulls make up the majority of dangerous encounters with dogs (encounters that result in permanent injury/death), and that is always defended as the "fault of the owner." Well, since the airline can't know how the dog was raised, it is by default an unsafe breed to carry in the cabin or even in a crate (they can chew through most things).

But if the dog is properly PROFESSIONALLY trained, it is as safe as any larger dog. Can the airlines require proof the dog was trained and then transfer liability to the owner that if they are misrepresenting the training of the animal, they are accountable?


Anyone can become a Dog Trainer. There is no Organization that governs it. If you want to open a Dog training business all you need to do it say your a Trainer. There is no official agency.
 
grbauc
Posts: 1445
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:01 am

ryanov wrote:
Funny that many of the people who say things like "is everyone so soft now that they need an emotional support animal" are gung ho on military service and patriotism. Many emotional support animals are traveling with vets who have PTSD.

People wouldn't be attempting to game this system if airlines charged a reasonable amount to have pets in the cabin ($200 one way is not reasonable), and if we had policies, in general, that were more permissive towards pets.

I fly often, and usually one-stop itineraries. Can't even remember more than 1-2 flights where I encountered an animal, and they certainly weren't a problem.


you bring up very valid points. The airlines have partly caused this.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 14899
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:18 pm

grbauc wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
They can't ban them, but can they require proof of training for a specific need?

Pitbulls make up the majority of dangerous encounters with dogs (encounters that result in permanent injury/death), and that is always defended as the "fault of the owner." Well, since the airline can't know how the dog was raised, it is by default an unsafe breed to carry in the cabin or even in a crate (they can chew through most things).

But if the dog is properly PROFESSIONALLY trained, it is as safe as any larger dog. Can the airlines require proof the dog was trained and then transfer liability to the owner that if they are misrepresenting the training of the animal, they are accountable?


Anyone can become a Dog Trainer. There is no Organization that governs it. If you want to open a Dog training business all you need to do it say your a Trainer. There is no official agency.

Professionally trained as a support animal. From a recognized agency.

But more to the liability, maybe society should start requiring liability insurance be carried by owners of these invasive animals. Want to bring your dog into best buy? Where’s your insurance?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
grbauc
Posts: 1445
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:19 pm

ikramerica wrote:
grbauc wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
They can't ban them, but can they require proof of training for a specific need?

Pitbulls make up the majority of dangerous encounters with dogs (encounters that result in permanent injury/death), and that is always defended as the "fault of the owner." Well, since the airline can't know how the dog was raised, it is by default an unsafe breed to carry in the cabin or even in a crate (they can chew through most things).

But if the dog is properly PROFESSIONALLY trained, it is as safe as any larger dog. Can the airlines require proof the dog was trained and then transfer liability to the owner that if they are misrepresenting the training of the animal, they are accountable?


Anyone can become a Dog Trainer. There is no Organization that governs it. If you want to open a Dog training business all you need to do it say your a Trainer. There is no official agency.

Professionally trained as a support animal. From a recognized agency.

But more to the liability, maybe society should start requiring liability insurance be carried by owners of these invasive animals. Want to bring your dog into best buy? Where’s your insurance?



Yes there is no Professionally recognized agency certificating Service dogs or Trainers.

I love the Liability Insurance Idea. The optics are way worse then the actual issue but with human nature and the lack of thought I think requiring a insurance would curb the trend.
 
winginit
Posts: 2555
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:40 pm

ryanov wrote:
Funny that many of the people who say things like "is everyone so soft now that they need an emotional support animal" are gung ho on military service and patriotism. Many emotional support animals are traveling with vets who have PTSD.


I'm an animal lover head to toe, but the fact of the matter is that there is virtually no scientific evidence that backs the utility of emotional support animals as they are currently defined - even with those with PTSD.

mast2407 wrote:
I’m saying this as someone who has PTSD, and lives in Europe, and has ASD.

I love flying. It’s a dream to me.

I hate airports. Proper hate them. They pure stress me out. I cannot imagine a single instance where having an “emotional support animal”, that is, another thing to mind along with my passport, my belongings, my backpack, would make me less stressed out. Give me a pair of headphones, loud Bruce Springsteen, and a window, and I’m good to go.

If you “genuinely” have ASD, or PTSD, adding service dogs to the mix actually won’t help. It’ll make it worse. The cabin of an aircraft should be peaceful, quiet and relaxed, not full of pets. (Exaggeration, I know, but you get the point I’m sure).

I do not understand emotional support animals. If you are incapable of leaving the house without a dog to cheer you up, you need help. Do yourself a favor, get the help, that is coming from someone with ASD and PTSD.

This nonsense, thankfully, has not manifested on this side of the Atlantic. May that long be the case.


Spot on. Thank you for sharing.
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3425
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:38 pm

I think the answer to the problem is actually fairly easy to resolve. All airlines should simply have a policy that a person needs to declare, when booking their ticket, that they will be bringing an emotional support animal into the cabin AND be required to buy a row of seats so no other passengers need sit next to them. That way if a person can afford to buy the 1 or 2 seats in addition to their own they can bring their ESA on board. If not, it can't travel.

Obviously that doesn't apply to seeing eye dogs an service animals but it would dramatically reduce the number of ESA's on planes AND would reduce the incidents on planes involving them because no-one other than the owner would be seated around them.
 
ryanov
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:38 am

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:52 am

Again, there should be a reasonable way to travel with a pet, IMO. Asking people to buy a whole row is absurd. What, only rich people should be able to travel distances with a pet? Why are they inherently more deserving?
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3425
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:05 am

ryanov wrote:
Again, there should be a reasonable way to travel with a pet, IMO. Asking people to buy a whole row is absurd. What, only rich people should be able to travel distances with a pet? Why are they inherently more deserving?


There is already a reasonable way of travelling with a pet or having an airline transport your pet. https://www.aa.com/i18n/travel-info/spe ... e/pets.jsp for example outlines ways in which you can do this and I have no objections to people following the relevant airlines policies for pet transportation. But lets call a spade a spade here and not confuse someone's pet, and the airlines pet carrying policy, with all of the BS emotional support animals that people are claiming that they need to travel with. (The vast majority of which are in actual fact just pets where people are trying to circumvent or get around the pet carrying policies of the airlines).
 
ryanov
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:38 am

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:18 am

I did say reasonable. $125 one-way is not all that reasonable, and transporting your pet in cargo isn't all that safe.
 
MrBretz
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:13 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:12 am

I hope this is not too far off topic, but the DOT considers miniature horses service animals. I had no idea this was the case. I assume they mean a properly trained one and not a pet.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/17/trav ... plane.html
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:19 am

ryanov wrote:
I did say reasonable. $125 one-way is not all that reasonable, and transporting your pet in cargo isn't all that safe.


Then, leave your pet at home!

I was mauled by a dog when I was six years old, and I've been afraid of dogs ever since. I'm also allergic to cats.

I'm okay with seeing eye dogs and professionally trained dogs for people with documented PTSD (like soldiers). However, I feel it's incredibly cruel and selfish for people to bring fake emotional support animals out in public, when they know that doing so creates anxiety and / or causes health problems for people like myself who are physically and mentally uncomfortable around them.
 
ryanov
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:38 am

Re: DOT Rules Airlines Can’t Ban Pit Bulls and Other Service Animal Breeds

Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:18 am

That’s about as reasonable as telling you to just stay home.

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