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zakuivcustom
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:10 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Heck and China is hardly the first county that may vet crews that operate in its airspace. Airlines for decades have supplied name list to foreign authorities. Some nations like Israel specifically even individually vet pilots as part of security protocols.


While idiotic, it's definitely true that China is far from the only country that does this. As CX said, "They have already do something like this as required before" anyway.

hongkongflyer wrote:
The (2) ground staffs who leaked HK police soccer team's travelling information have been fired.


And while there is an outcry on the internet, imagine if there are employees in US that, let say, support BLM and leak info of certain police officers to a group calling for "kicking those popo off the plane", they would get fired in US also.

Cerecl wrote:
A question related to the topic: I recently came across a video clip purportedly recording a cabin announcement during a CX flight in support of the protestors in HK. The announcement itself is inoffensive and does not advocate violence. Nevertheless, what are the rules or regulations with regard to airline crews expressing their political view while on duty? This question is not limited to CX of course, what would an US airline do if one of its flight attendants hands out "MAGA" pamphlets in the cabin or a BA pilot at the end of his/her usual in-flight announcement adds "by the way, I really think Brexit is the worst thing we voted for for a long time"?


It's definitely a grey area. With the ultra political correctness in western world nowaday, handing out MAGA pamphlets is certainly going to stir an outcry, meaning the pilot would most likely be suspended. The MAGA crowd, of course, will then, goes "oppressing freedom of speech", "boycott (insert carrier name here)", etc.

Sadly to say, such incidents are only going to increase in number.
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:32 pm

albert648 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
China as with any nation is certainly within its rights to bar specific crew members it deems a risk. The U.S does the same via its visa process with all types of random past events barring people.


One problem - Mainland China deems HK a part of China. You can't deny your own citizens the right to travel inside your own country without political pushback. Hong Kong can't be a part of China when it suits the Communist Party and not a part of China when it suits them. It's either a part of China (and all HKers have the same rights, privileges and immunities that mainlanders have) or not (and China needs to go back to Beijing with their tail between their legs and mind their own business).

Just another desperate attempt of the Communist party to meddle in something they have no business meddling in.

As a matter of fact, you can: many countries had at some moment some kind of "internal passport" (like USSR) and Chinese citizens cannot freely settle anywhere in the country, especially in large cities. And you have a kind of border to go from mainland China to HK (or Macau).
And frankly, a "political pushback"? In China?
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:03 pm

Cerecl wrote:
A question related to the topic: I recently came across a video clip purportedly recording a cabin announcement during a CX flight in support of the protestors in HK. The announcement itself is inoffensive and does not advocate violence. Nevertheless, what are the rules or regulations with regard to airline crews expressing their political view while on duty? This question is not limited to CX of course, what would an US airline do if one of its flight attendants hands out "MAGA" pamphlets in the cabin or a BA pilot at the end of his/her usual in-flight announcement adds "by the way, I really think Brexit is the worst thing we voted for a long time"?


I would hope they would face disciplinary action.

The workplace is not the platform to express your own political views at.
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:53 pm

:redflag:

Last Warning.

Unless members can keep this thread focused on aviation and avoid political and derogatory commentary it will be locked.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:24 pm

Cerecl wrote:
A question related to the topic: I recently came across a video clip purportedly recording a cabin announcement during a CX flight in support of the protestors in HK. The announcement itself is inoffensive and does not advocate violence.

However, the message have already been classified as promoting independence of Hong Kong against the law on Chinese media site.
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:26 pm

CX CEO Rupert Hogg letter to employees. Quite rational.

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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:37 pm

Sensible message.

Regardless of what employees might think personally, they must avoid ensnarling the company, and remember even off duty and on social media, their actions can reflect back on the company.

The focus needs to be on flight safety and providing an overall safe and reliable environment at CX.
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LYuen
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:49 pm

Cerecl wrote:
A question related to the topic: I recently came across a video clip purportedly recording a cabin announcement during a CX flight in support of the protestors in HK. The announcement itself is inoffensive and does not advocate violence. Nevertheless, what are the rules or regulations with regard to airline crews expressing their political view while on duty? This question is not limited to CX of course, what would an US airline do if one of its flight attendants hands out "MAGA" pamphlets in the cabin or a BA pilot at the end of his/her usual in-flight announcement adds "by the way, I really think Brexit is the worst thing we voted for for a long time"?

The captain could claim that he was only explaining to the tourists the situation at the airport - an essential piece of information as every passenger would walk past the arrival hall, right? I mean, HKers know what he means, but it is not enough to say he has breached the professional conduct. However... who knows what China would do... It is quite easy to find out the identity of the captain, but please do not do so.
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:54 am

airtrantpa wrote:
HK was better off in British hands. I was there for the ceremony in 97. I will say the flight home on Cathay was one of the best I ever had. Shame how politics can ruin a really great airline.

I haven’t been following all this has HKG been affected at all by this? Do you think that The Hong Kong aviation authorities reciprocate and ban Chinese carriers of CAAC bans Cathay?


Please. Just. Stop. Being. Political.
Politics haven't really caused CX any trouble, as far as I know of; if you believe some political events caused a downgrade on CX's service, do show me.
However, if you know Chinese and type the Chinese equivalent of "Cathay Pacific discrimination", you will see tons of negative feedback. It is much worthier to analyze whether or not Cathay Pacific(or its Dragonair subsidiary) have ever discriminated a certain group of passengers (mainlanders) over others than to make claims about politics. For your info, here is an example:

https://www.zhihu.com/question/264267067
"我坐的国泰航空的商务舱,8月份从香港到科伦坡,空乘发了食物酒水菜单,我翻看了一下,脸就黑了,整个菜单食物部分是中英文对称的,但是酒水部分只有英文,没有中文。"
I flew on CX business class on August (of 2017) from HK to Colombo; as I read through the menu, my face turned dark, for though the food section comes with Chinese and English, there is no Chinese for the beverages/wines section".

And according to multiple attempts to ask CX to fix this problem without success, on December of that year, the question was made public on Zhihu.

As far as I am concerned, isn't Hong Kong a Special Administrative Region of People's Republic of China (don't dispute this with me, go to UN), with 2 scripts and 3 languages on active use and of equal legal rights? They literally use "difficulties of translation" to fool a business class pax!
So to be simple and clear: if something ruined CX's reputation in the mainland, then it is CX themselves.
Fun fact: when I am typing this, I have China Eastern ads showing up; I may just as well fly with them.
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:56 am

LYuen wrote:
Cerecl wrote:
A question related to the topic: I recently came across a video clip purportedly recording a cabin announcement during a CX flight in support of the protestors in HK. The announcement itself is inoffensive and does not advocate violence. Nevertheless, what are the rules or regulations with regard to airline crews expressing their political view while on duty? This question is not limited to CX of course, what would an US airline do if one of its flight attendants hands out "MAGA" pamphlets in the cabin or a BA pilot at the end of his/her usual in-flight announcement adds "by the way, I really think Brexit is the worst thing we voted for for a long time"?

The captain could claim that he was only explaining to the tourists the situation at the airport - an essential piece of information as every passenger would walk past the arrival hall, right? I mean, HKers know what he means, but it is not enough to say he has breached the professional conduct. However... who knows what China would do... It is quite easy to find out the identity of the captain, but please do not do so.


But, the captain himself should not carry political opinions of his own, for he will represent Cathay Pacific in the process; all he needs to do is to say:"be advised, we have a protest at the arrival hall" or just outright say nothing.
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:41 am

LYuen wrote:
Cerecl wrote:
A question related to the topic: I recently came across a video clip purportedly recording a cabin announcement during a CX flight in support of the protestors in HK. The announcement itself is inoffensive and does not advocate violence. Nevertheless, what are the rules or regulations with regard to airline crews expressing their political view while on duty? This question is not limited to CX of course, what would an US airline do if one of its flight attendants hands out "MAGA" pamphlets in the cabin or a BA pilot at the end of his/her usual in-flight announcement adds "by the way, I really think Brexit is the worst thing we voted for for a long time"?

The captain could claim that he was only explaining to the tourists the situation at the airport - an essential piece of information as every passenger would walk past the arrival hall, right? I mean, HKers know what he means, but it is not enough to say he has breached the professional conduct. However... who knows what China would do... It is quite easy to find out the identity of the captain, but please do not do so.

The captain can claim whatever he want and the Chinese authority wouldn't listen to what he said.
In the recording, the captain claim the protest have been mostly peaceful so far. That's contrary to the official attribution that the protest is violent and those mobs should be put down immediately
The captain also encourage passengers listen to what the protestors say. But given that China have said it is obvious from what those protestors say that their demand are trying to damage the national sovereignty and integrity of China, when he said those words it is also possible for China to interpret that as trying to advocate this goal.
At last, he said using Cantonese an expression similar to "Hong Kong people, keep up.". A while ago, there was a Japanese artist who have been banned from China because of saying something like that, with the reason of it advocate the independence of Hong Kong. I guess they can aldo make the same interpretation here.
Last edited by c933103 on Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:52 am

B1168 wrote:
Please. Just. Stop. Being. Political.
Politics haven't really caused CX any trouble, as far as I know of; if you believe some political events caused a downgrade on CX's service, do show me.
However, if you know Chinese and type the Chinese equivalent of "Cathay Pacific discrimination", you will see tons of negative feedback. It is much worthier to analyze whether or not Cathay Pacific(or its Dragonair subsidiary) have ever discriminated a certain group of passengers (mainlanders) over others than to make claims about politics. For your info, here is an example:

https://www.zhihu.com/question/264267067
"我坐的国泰航空的商务舱,8月份从香港到科伦坡,空乘发了食物酒水菜单,我翻看了一下,脸就黑了,整个菜单食物部分是中英文对称的,但是酒水部分只有英文,没有中文。"
I flew on CX business class on August (of 2017) from HK to Colombo; as I read through the menu, my face turned dark, for though the food section comes with Chinese and English, there is no Chinese for the beverages/wines section".

And according to multiple attempts to ask CX to fix this problem without success, on December of that year, the question was made public on Zhihu.

As far as I am concerned, isn't Hong Kong a Special Administrative Region of People's Republic of China (don't dispute this with me, go to UN), with 2 scripts and 3 languages on active use and of equal legal rights? They literally use "difficulties of translation" to fool a business class pax!
So to be simple and clear: if something ruined CX's reputation in the mainland, then it is CX themselves.
Fun fact: when I am typing this, I have China Eastern ads showing up; I may just as well fly with them.

Please stop making political post on the civil aviation board, and try not to continue arguing using politics while telling other follow the rule.
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:12 am

LAXintl wrote:
Sensible message.

Regardless of what employees might think personally, they must avoid ensnarling the company, and remember even off duty and on social media, their actions can reflect back on the company.

The focus needs to be on flight safety and providing an overall safe and reliable environment at CX.

There are unconfirmed rumors that content stored in personal electronic communication device of the crews will be checked as part of the flight safety check, similar to what have been happening to a few travellers crossing the land border, but such information have not been confirmed yet.
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sf852
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:44 am

As HKG is almost fully surrounded by PRC lands and waters. Anyone know how many of current CX route do not touch PRC Airspaces? How many do not need PRC Air Traffic Controls?

Will it count if an alternate landing site is in PRC?
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:50 am

sf852 wrote:
As HKG is almost fully surrounded by PRC lands and waters. Anyone know how many of current CX route do not touch PRC Airspaces? How many do not need PRC Air Traffic Controls?

Will it count if an alternate landing site is in PRC?

Everything that go South/East out of Hong Kong will not be handled by Mainland China air traffic control, however the problem is that these flights will still pass through area that are controlled by Hong Kong air traffic control yet belongs to the Mainland China territorial air space. It is not clear whether they're going to enforce the rule for those area too.
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:15 am

http://www.takungpao.com.hk/news/232109 ... 34282.html
Newspaper belongs to China Liaison Office in Hong Kong continue publish report against Cathay, this time they claim multiple Cathay flight attendance talk with protestors in the airport, which indicate their support on behavior of those radical protestors that are turning Hong Kong into chaos. The paper further alleged that content of the discussion include "scaring tourists away from Hong Kong". It then cited "someone from the industry", say Cathay is mismanaged, arrogant, and reckless when handling flight safety related problem, as if gambling with the life of their thousands of passenger. "It is obvious that they are apologizing merely because of CAAC, instead of sincerely reflect their own mistake. Their management are completely off the ground, have no idea how to manage their staff, and have no political intelligence, others in the aviation industry should learn from their failure."


When the internet edition of People's Daily, China's official newspaper reposted the news https://wap.peopleapp.com/article/4473523/4347542 , they further note that Cathay still haven't officially response to their 3000+ staff strike in a clear way.
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:04 pm

Genuine question: how hard would it be for a CX pilot to get a job in Europe or the US?

I feel for the pilots at Cathay. You were/are apart of great, modern airline with a very “Western” lifestyle. This now threatens a lot of that. Your job is in high demand globally. If it were me, I’d seriously be considering a move if it were possible.

It’s one thing to work for a “Government controlled airline” from the beginning (ie Air China, etc...). It’s another thing to be pulled into one.
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:24 pm

SuseJ772 wrote:
Genuine question: how hard would it be for a CX pilot to get a job in Europe or the US?

I feel for the pilots at Cathay. You were/are apart of great, modern airline with a very “Western” lifestyle. This now threatens a lot of that. Your job is in high demand globally. If it were me, I’d seriously be considering a move if it were possible.

It’s one thing to work for a “Government controlled airline” from the beginning (ie Air China, etc...). It’s another thing to be pulled into one.


Citizenship becomes the biggest issue in the US, followed by conversion of airmans certificates. Actually CX is losing pilots already do to various factors, including working conditions, compensation, etc.
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:19 pm

SuseJ772 wrote:
Genuine question: how hard would it be for a CX pilot to get a job in Europe or the US?

I feel for the pilots at Cathay. You were/are apart of great, modern airline with a very “Western” lifestyle. This now threatens a lot of that. Your job is in high demand globally. If it were me, I’d seriously be considering a move if it were possible.

It’s one thing to work for a “Government controlled airline” from the beginning (ie Air China, etc...). It’s another thing to be pulled into one.


That would depend on what nationality passport you hold. Most countries only employ citizens from their own country, or ones who have managed to get work visas somehow. There are contract jobs in some countries that will always be an option, and the middle eastern airlines could be an option with those with no home country to go to fly in. The chinese airlines are employing foreigners atm but given the topic at hand, those needing new jobs are unlikely to head there!
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:21 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Just giving people some background, the whole "security warning" probably originate from this:
https://www.facebook.com/cathaypacificH ... 8091211220

There's also another legislator in LegCo (Jeremy Tam Man-ho) that is a CX pilot and had appeared in many protests also. Those two combined likely triggered the CAAC to target CX.

Ultimately, it's PRC and they just keep showing why they cannot be trust as somebody that "rise peacefully".

airtrantpa wrote:
I haven’t been following all this has HKG been affected at all by this? Do you think that The Hong Kong aviation authorities reciprocate and ban Chinese carriers of CAAC bans Cathay?


VERY doubtful. The whole HK gov't is full of pro-PRC officials/cronies (Unlike Taiwan).


Jeremy Tam stopped being a Cathay pilot when he became a legislator. He is still considered the 'specialist for aviation' in the government but it has been years since he was behind the controls of a Cathay plane.
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:42 pm

http://i.carnoc.com/detail/502919
Another article fron People's Daily, China's official newspaper, question the sincerity of Cathay's approach on the warning.

It have been written that:
Cathay deal with the incident only when they are being pressed to, and the lack of clarity in their attitude and stance, make people doubt how sincere they are in correcting and reflecting their mistake. Those that should be suspended from flying should have been suspended from flying, those that should be punished should have been punished, and those that should be corrected should have been punished. There's no way to let these warning not to be taken seriously!
A commercial entity participate in politics and "pretend to be neutral" in front of what should be great just versus evil, the terrible way Cathay handle this incident in an upside down approach that's fooled by its own smartness should have gave itself a lesson on that, and also serve as a warning to other companies trying to meddle with it. Aircraft can only be safe if it fly on the designated route, and company can only be sustainable if it develop on a correct way.
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:51 am

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/tra ... and-chinas

For now, Unions are playing things down. But it'll be VERY interesting to see if CAAC really step things up.

Of course, making somebody like CX picking a side is not going to be pretty - but sadly, politics and aviation are often intertwined.
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:16 am

So how does participating in a peaceful protest negatively impact flight safety?
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:18 am

zkojq wrote:
So how does participating in a peaceful protest negatively impact flight safety?


It does not - it's all politics and nothing else. As I said in my last reply - it's basically forcing CX to "pick a side" instead of, as c933103 said, "act as if they're neutral".
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:34 am

The largest shareholder in CX remains the Swire Group, headed by Barnaby Swire of the U.K.
Probably something Beijing is not happy about remembering right at the moment even if he does reside in far off Kent.
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:04 am

philabos wrote:
The largest shareholder in CX remains the Swire Group, headed by Barnaby Swire of the U.K.


The largest shareholder is Swire Pacific, a HKG company listed on the HKEX like the CX group which is also s HKG public company listed on the HKEX.

The second largest shareholder is Air China, and CX is a large shareholder in Air China.

For those who are familiar with JACDEC they independently rate CX as the safest airline in the region, with SQ a little behind.

http://theflight.info/rating-of-the-mos ... orld-2018/
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:20 am

philabos wrote:
The largest shareholder in CX remains the Swire Group, headed by Barnaby Swire of the U.K.


Swire Group controls CX. Its bit of a convulated ownership structure which helps to mask the reality that CX is controlled by the Swire Group out of the UK.
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:24 am

zeke wrote:
philabos wrote:
The largest shareholder in CX remains the Swire Group, headed by Barnaby Swire of the U.K.


The largest shareholder is Swire Pacific, a HKG company listed on the HKEX like the CX group which is also s HKG public company listed on the HKEX.

The second largest shareholder is Air China, and CX is a large shareholder in Air China.


Arguing semantics a bit there as Swire Pacific is 55% owned by Swire Group :) Much like most things in life CXs ownership structure is complicated. It's actually amazing to see how far a family from Liverpool have spread their wings.

https://www.swire.com/en/about/organisational-chart.pdf
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:41 am

timtam wrote:
philabos wrote:
The largest shareholder in CX remains the Swire Group, headed by Barnaby Swire of the U.K.


Swire Group controls CX. Its bit of a convulated ownership structure which helps to mask the reality that CX is controlled by the Swire Group out of the UK.


The corporate governance and majority shareholders are for everyone to see in the company filings on the HKEX.

https://www.hkex.com.hk/Market-Data/Sec ... sc_lang=en

I know you have made this statement many times when Jetstar Hong Kong failed in its application process.

Repeating false statements does not make them true.

The CX group is a HKG publicly listed company on the HKEX. By that very definition it is controlled in HKG.
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:55 am

United1 wrote:
Arguing semantics a bit there as Swire Pacific is 55% owned by Swire Group :)


That is not true. 55% of Swire Pacific is owned by another HKG company, you just happened to jump over that step to fit your storyline.

The flowchart you posted is out of date, Air China is up around 30%, and Qatar Airways has about 10%.
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SurlyBonds
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:27 am

zeke wrote:

The CX group is a HKG publicly listed company on the HKEX. By that very definition it is controlled in HKG.


What? Just because a company is listed on a stock exchange in a particular country, or incorporated in a particular country, doesn't inherently mean the controlling stockholders are also there.
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:48 am

On Apple Daily, a populist tabloid, it cited anonymous opinion from Cathay crew, claim that security equipment in Cathay Dragon like emergency oxygen bottles are being exhausted by unknown person when their aircraft overnight in Chinese airports.
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:27 am

Some flights departing from/arrive at Hong Kong airport will need to be re-scheduled starting from ~1800 local time today according to local television
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:42 am

SurlyBonds wrote:

What? Just because a company is listed on a stock exchange in a particular country, or incorporated in a particular country, doesn't inherently mean the controlling stockholders are also there.


Please provide a link to the HKEX listing rules which supports your claims.

This is a public company, listed on a large exchange. In order to be listed it needs to met at the time of listing, and them continues through its listing period to abide by the listing rules.

Should be very easy then for you to show that a company incorporated and listed in HKG is not legally a HKG company and not HKG controlled..
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into

Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:35 am

zeke wrote:
United1 wrote:
Arguing semantics a bit there as Swire Pacific is 55% owned by Swire Group :)


That is not true. 55% of Swire Pacific is owned by another HKG company, you just happened to jump over that step to fit your storyline.

The flowchart you posted is out of date, Air China is up around 30%, and Qatar Airways has about 10%.


Zeke you are a very smart guy normally but in this case you are not entirely correct. I know based on other threads you will never admit it so I won’t respond to you beyond this post on this particular topic.

That flow chard I posted is accurate as of July 1st 2019 and that “other HKG company” I jumped over is John SWIRE and Sons HK Limited which is a wholly owned subsidiary of John SWIRE and Sons Limited...which is based in London.

CX is a publicly traded company floated on the HK Stock exchange...the largest shareholder is SWIRE Pacific with 45%, Air China with 30%, Qatar with around 10% and the rest floated on the exchange.

SWIRE Pacific is also a publicly traded company on the HK stock exchange with 55% owned by John SWIRE and Sons HK Limited.

John SWIRE and Sons HK Limited is a holding company 100% owned by John SWIRE and Sons Limited of London.

Whomever owns CX is really irrelevant as at the end of the day as this issue is far bigger than Cathay. I hope at the end of the day the people of HK are able to resolve their differences with the mainland as this could end very badly otherwise.
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into

Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:04 am

United1 wrote:
SWIRE Pacific is also a publicly traded company on the HK stock exchange with 55% owned by John SWIRE and Sons HK Limited.

John SWIRE and Sons HK Limited is a holding company 100% owned by John SWIRE and Sons Limited of London.


That is correct, Swire Pacific Limited and John Swire & Sons (H.K.) Limited are HKG companies, meaning they are legal identities, they have HKG “citizenship”. These companies as well as the CX group are subject to HKG law.

This is very common in HKG for larger companies, and even more so if you add into the context that there was a period during which Hong Kong was governed as a colony and British Dependent Territory of the United Kingdom.

This would be no different to a second generation British subject that has a U.K. passport by way ancestry however was born in HKG. That natural person is a HKG citizen, HKID card holder, and a U.K. passport holder.

That person who lives in HKG is subject to HKG law, just because they are two generations ago were from British ancestors does not make them British or subject to British laws.

United1 wrote:
Whomever owns CX is really irrelevant as at the end of the day as this issue is far bigger than Cathay.


I disagree entirely, CX is a majority HKG owned and HKG controlled company. The largest foreign shareholders are Air China which CX has a cross shareholding in return, and Qatar Airways.

This is like saying Virgin Australia International Airlines, the airline that conducts international operations for Virgin Australia Holdings Limited is controlled in the U.K. because it is part of the Virgin Group. Virgin Australia International Airlines Is a majority owned and controlled Australian airline.
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:13 am

No more outbound traffic allowed from HKG.

Only en-route traffic will be allowed to land into HK. The airports closes down all other operations until further notice it seems.
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zeke
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:18 am

To remain factual this is the actual NOTAM

VHHH-A2801/19 *** NEW ***
From: 12/8/2019 08:29 UTC
To: 13/8/2019 00:00 UTC (EST)
GROUND STOP IN FORCE DUE TO UNEXPECTED CIRCUMSTANCES AT HONG KONG
INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT (HKIA). ALL ACFT BOUND FOR VHHH NOT YET
DEPARTED FROM THE FOLLOWING FIRS ARE REQUIRED TO REMAIN ON THE
GROUND:
- RJJJ, WMFC, WBFC, RPHI, RKRR, WSJC, RCAA, VTBB, VVVV, VVTS, ZBPE,
ZGZU, ZHWH, ZJSA, ZLHW, ZPKM, ZSHA, ZWUQ, ZYSH, WAAF, WIIF
ACFT ALREADY AIRBORNE AND PROCEEDING TO HKIA MAY EXPECT POSSIBLE
DIVERSION.

Despite this NOTAM there will still be limited flights departing HKIA.
Last edited by zeke on Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:23 am

I see the only way for CX out of this is to position the economic stability of HK between the airline and China, that is, if worse comes to worst, we can always expect a logical solution, China doesn't want to see their "goodwill" go down the drain it really has tried for so long to gain merely to have control of an airline (Although now that I say that it is starting to kick down that door of stupid ideas China has come up with in the past). The only sticking point for China IMO and the only bargaining phrase for CX if they wish to remain genuinely competitive i.e. Not propped up by Gov funds or commanded to fly routes with set frequencies on set aircraft at set times by the CAAC
 
Cerecl
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:46 am

c933103 wrote:
In the recording, the captain claim the protest have been mostly peaceful so far. That's contrary to the official attribution that the protest is violent and those mobs should be put down immediately
The captain also encourage passengers listen to what the protesters say. But given that China have said it is obvious from what those protesters say that their demand are trying to damage the national sovereignty and integrity of China, when he said those words it is also possible for China to interpret that as trying to advocate this goal.

I agree with B1168 on this point. If the captain only said "there is a protest at the airport, it is peaceful", it would have been entirely appropriate. What he went on to say clearly implied a political position, making this announcement inoffensive but inappropriate. I have also come across reports of CX Flight attendant(s) putting up signs in support of the protest in the cabin and joining/expressing support of the protestors while in company uniform. It is also widely reported that an ex-CX flight attendant was recently arrested for aiming laser lights at the police during protest. All pretty bad optics for CX at the moment. Whatever employees do during their off-duty time (as long as legal) is none of the employer's business but while they are on duty their behavior obviously reflects on their employer. I think the management of CX was sleeping at the wheel and tightened the ship too late and it does not help the CX has a well-known (whether deserved or undeserved) reputation/notoriety for subtle discrimination against mainland passengers.

Just to be fair, I don't think having all the wines name in Chinese on the menu is that important as raised by B1168. Most wines served on CX flights are produced outside China and some phonetic translation of the chateau they are from is really not that crucial and does not warrant the faux-outrage in the quoted report.

c933103 wrote:
On Apple Daily, a populist tabloid, it cited anonymous opinion from Cathay crew, claim that security equipment in Cathay Dragon like emergency oxygen bottles are being exhausted by unknown person when their aircraft overnight in Chinese airports.

Apple Daily to PRC is like Breitbart to Obama. I would trust its report on Chinese issues as much as I trust People' Daily's on HK (at least People's Daily reflects official position and has reference value). CAAC can be bureaucratic and draconian at times, but it takes safety very seriously. I don't think anyone would be so "mo liu" to temper with safety equipment. If it did happen, the correct way to deal with it is to raise the issue with CAAC (You don't think CX loves something at the moment to get back at CAAC?) and the airport authority. Talking to Apple Daily instead of the people who can actually do something about it pretty much guarantees this to be filed under "vicious rumour" by the Chinese.
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:01 pm

According to Flightradar Virgin Australia has retimed it’s flights out of Hong Kong for 10am/1030am Local time 13/8.
 
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zeke
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:15 pm

Cerecl wrote:
Just to be fair, I don't think having all the wines name in Chinese on the menu is that important as raised by B1168. Most wines served on CX flights are produced outside China and some phonetic translation of the chateau they are from is really not that crucial and does not warrant the faux-outrage in the quoted report.


This is a 2018 report by Business Traveler on the CX soft product

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... ill-offer/

This is a photo of the drinks menu they made at the time, this is the same format today.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/businesst ... 016906562/
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:29 pm

zeke wrote:
To remain factual this is the actual NOTAM

VHHH-A2801/19 *** NEW ***
From: 12/8/2019 08:29 UTC
To: 13/8/2019 00:00 UTC (EST)
GROUND STOP IN FORCE DUE TO UNEXPECTED CIRCUMSTANCES AT HONG KONG
INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT (HKIA). ALL ACFT BOUND FOR VHHH NOT YET
DEPARTED FROM THE FOLLOWING FIRS ARE REQUIRED TO REMAIN ON THE
GROUND:
- RJJJ, WMFC, WBFC, RPHI, RKRR, WSJC, RCAA, VTBB, VVVV, VVTS, ZBPE,
ZGZU, ZHWH, ZJSA, ZLHW, ZPKM, ZSHA, ZWUQ, ZYSH, WAAF, WIIF
ACFT ALREADY AIRBORNE AND PROCEEDING TO HKIA MAY EXPECT POSSIBLE
DIVERSION.

Despite this NOTAM there will still be limited flights departing HKIA.


Thank you. Ground stop is not due to unforeseen weather.
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into

Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:09 pm

United1 wrote:
[

Zeke you are a very smart guy normally but in this case you are not entirely correct. I know based on other threads you will never admit it so I won’t respond to you beyond this post on this particular topic.

That flow chard I posted is accurate as of July 1st 2019 and that “other HKG company” I jumped over is John SWIRE and Sons HK Limited which is a wholly owned subsidiary of John SWIRE and Sons Limited...which is based in London.

CX is a publicly traded company floated on the HK Stock exchange...the largest shareholder is SWIRE Pacific with 45%, Air China with 30%, Qatar with around 10% and the rest floated on the exchange.

SWIRE Pacific is also a publicly traded company on the HK stock exchange with 55% owned by John SWIRE and Sons HK Limited.

John SWIRE and Sons HK Limited is a holding company 100% owned by John SWIRE and Sons Limited of London.


Not to mention that the majority of directors of the Board are either directors or employees of John Swire.

Yes its a convoluted structure but it is un-deniable that ultimate control of CX rests with John Swire out of the UK.
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:42 pm

"As far as I am concerned, isn't Hong Kong a Special Administrative Region of People's Republic of China (don't dispute this with me, go to UN), with 2 scripts and 3 languages on active use and of equal legal rights? They literally use "difficulties of translation" to fool a business class pax!"

HKSAR has two official languages - Cantonese (traditional Chinese) and English. The "third" language I assume you are referring to is Mandarin does not have legal status here.
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into

Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:56 pm

zeke wrote:

That is correct, Swire Pacific Limited and John Swire & Sons (H.K.) Limited are HKG companies, meaning they are legal identities, they have HKG “citizenship”. These companies as well as the CX group are subject to HKG law..


*Of course* Hong Kong entities are subject to Hong Kong corporate laws. That's an utter strawman, since no one has disputed that point. The fact remains that Hong Kong companies can have ultimate beneficial owners -- including controlling beneficial owners -- outside of Hong Kong. They can also have directors outside of Hong Kong.

Caveat: lots of countries, including the US, cap foreign ownership of airlines. (Seemingly Hong Kong does not, given the QR stake in Cathay and the fact that Swire appears to ultimately trace its ownership chain back to UK citizens. Who knows, maybe the PRC could try to impose such laws in Hong Kong next, which would effectively "nationalize" CX.)
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:29 pm

I see the above was caused by protests at the airport:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/12/worl ... tions.html

Wow...
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zeke
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into

Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:51 pm

timtam wrote:
Not to mention that the majority of directors of the Board are either directors or employees of John Swire.

Yes its a convoluted structure but it is un-deniable that ultimate control of CX rests with John Swire out of the UK.


Can you please desist from these false claims, you have a long track record on every thread that comes up about CX to make these false baseless claims.

These are the facts relating to the board https://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/ ... rs/0293.HK

The majority of the board live and work in Hong Kong, the airline is majority Hong Kong owned, the two major foreign shareholders are Air China and Qatar. The control and place of business of the airline is out of Hong Kong.

Like I mentioned above it is as absurd as suggesting Virgin Australia is run out of the UK because is part of the Virgin group.

SurlyBonds wrote:
*Of course* Hong Kong entities are subject to Hong Kong corporate laws. That's an utter strawman, since no one has disputed that point. The fact remains that Hong Kong companies can have ultimate beneficial owners -- including controlling beneficial owners -- outside of Hong Kong. They can also have directors outside of Hong Kong.

Caveat: lots of countries, including the US, cap foreign ownership of airlines. (Seemingly Hong Kong does not, given the QR stake in Cathay and the fact that Swire appears to ultimately trace its ownership chain back to UK citizens. Who knows, maybe the PRC could try to impose such laws in Hong Kong next, which would effectively "nationalize" CX.)


Firstly you have disputed this so have several other posters, please understand fully what it legally means to be listed in the HKEX. CX is a public HKG company listed on the HKEX. The airline is majority HKG owned, the share ownership is available for everyone to see.

The two major foreign shareholders are Air China (which is diluted by the CX cross ownership of Air China shares) and Qatar. Swire Pacific is a very very large HKEX listed company, and in my view why CX is very successful against the 120 plus other airlines it competes against (many of which are state owned, or have state investment funds behind them) at its home base is the vertical integration CX has with the other Swire Pacific companies.

As for majority ownership rules, ICAO changed that years ago as it simply does not reflect the realities of global businesses like airlines. The major assets airlines have including aircraft, engines, terminal space etc are often not directly owned by airlines themselves.the shareholders of airlines often also include large institutional investors which themselves can have complex ownership structures.

Per ICAO Manual on the Regulation of International Air Transport Doc 9626

While the substantial ownership and effective control requirement are the most prevailing criteria used by States, some exceptions or deviations have long existed, including the following:

• Parties to the International Air Services Transit Agreement (IASTA) grant overflight rights for scheduled air services to an “air transport enterprise” that is substantially owned and effectively controlled by nationals of a Contracting State to the IASTA. (The text of the IASTA may be found in Doc 9587.)

• Multinational carriers created by intergovernmental agreement, such as the Scandinavian Airline System (SAS) established by 3 Scandinavian countries; Air Afrique (now defunct) created by 11 African States; Gulf Air founded by 4 Middle East States. When one of these States wishes to designate their multinational air carrier to serve a third State, a modified ownership and control provision or other means can be used to ensure that the multinational air carrier will be authorized to use the commercial rights which the designating State has negotiated with that third State.

• A regulation of the Council of the European Union, effective 1 January 1993, allows a community air carrier (i.e. an air carrier majority owned and effectively controlled by member States of the Union and/or their nationals, with its principal place of business and registered office located in a member State) to operate air services anywhere within the European Common Aviation Area (ECAA).

• Under the Andean Pact (concluded by 5 Latin American States), an air carrier entitled to operate services within the Pact will be determined by national law of the Pact State designating the airline.

• The Caribbean Community Air Service Agreement requires that a CARICOM airline providing services under the agreement be owned and controlled by one or more member States or their nationals.

• The bilateral agreements involving Hong Kong, China, as a party allow the airlines designated by Hong Kong to be those which are incorporated and have their principal place of business in Hong Kong, China. The designated airlines of the other party may, however, be subjected to the traditional substantive ownership and effective control criteria.

• The plurilateral open skies agreement concluded by some APEC members in 2001 permits the designated airline of a party to be one whose effective control is vested in the designating party and is incorporated and has its principal place of business in the territory of the designating party. The traditional substantial ownership requirement is no longer a condition.

• The single aviation market (SAM) arrangement between Australia and New Zealand allows a “SAM carrier” (an air carrier at least 50 per cent owned and effectively controlled by Australian and/or New Zealand nationals, with its head office and operational base in Australia or New Zealand) to operate air services within and between both countries, but with limits on beyond rights.

In addition, some States have used the discretionary right under the bilateral agreement to accept, on an ad hoc basis, foreign designated carriers that do not meet the traditional national ownership and control criteria, although usually this involves negotiated concessions as a quid pro quo for the acceptance.
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ltbewr
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:13 pm

How is this new policy of CAAC and access to HK airport affecting airlines based outside of China or its special territories of HK and Taiwan ? I also suspect that some airlines may be facing drops in demand due to the protests and will affect them that way too.
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:29 pm

Cerecl wrote:
A question related to the topic: I recently came across a video clip purportedly recording a cabin announcement during a CX flight in support of the protestors in HK. The announcement itself is inoffensive and does not advocate violence. Nevertheless, what are the rules or regulations with regard to airline crews expressing their political view while on duty? This question is not limited to CX of course, what would an US airline do if one of its flight attendants hands out "MAGA" pamphlets in the cabin or a BA pilot at the end of his/her usual in-flight announcement adds "by the way, I really think Brexit is the worst thing we voted for for a long time"?


While what you said is true and not just for airlines but all major companies and organisations in general.
There is one difference here. In the examples you have given, it would by the companies suggesting they have
violated their social media policy. They are self limiting exposure of their brand to controversies. BA aren't going to
fire a Captain because he supported the Yellow vest protestors and France didn't like it, and likewise France aren't
going to ban him due to a social media post unless he did something to incite violence or terrorism.

The Chinese government however are looking for a way to punish Hong Kong and one is to hurt Cathay.

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