United1
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into

Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:44 pm

timtam wrote:
United1 wrote:
[



Not to mention that the majority of directors of the Board are either directors or employees of John Swire.

Yes its a convoluted structure but it is un-deniable that ultimate control of CX rests with John Swire out of the UK.


There is a sprinkling of board members who are not part of Swire but yeah for the most part they are. The top two Slosar and Hogg have been with Swire for decades. A good example of how much control and influence Swire has is one of the family is still on the board.

Samuel Swire

https://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/ ... HK/2571529

Day to day decisions are clearly not run by the board, they rarely are at any major company, but strategic decisions absolutely are and I guarantee John Swire UK gets involved in those.
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timtam
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:51 am

Some do not like the reality of the structure of CX and that it is ultimately controlled by John Swire. But the those are the facts that fall out of the structure. Yes it is a complex structure that assists with masking the ultimate controlling party and its easy to understand how that creates some confusion because it is likely that this is the reason why the structure was created in the first place - to manage regulatory and political risks.

You can reach Zeke's viewpoint if you look at the first layer of the structure. In order to comply with some rules, this is sufficient. But if you look beyond the first layer, as you always have to in order to determine who ultimately controls a business, then that leads you to John Swire.

Just to further add to this, there are two classes of shares in the structure with one class of shares having greater voting rights than the other. This enables John Swire to have greater voting rights (and therefore greater control) than its economic ownership of the entities.

We have been down this discussion path before and Zeke will not change his viewpoint on this. So there is no point in further debating this. Let the facts speak for themselves and just agree to have a different interpretation of the facts.
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:49 am

https://twitter.com/flightradar24/statu ... 3241032704
There are rumors that, August 11's CX899, EWR->HKG, failed to obtain permission to cross the Chinese airspace and thus diverted to KIX after multiple hours of delay.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
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SQ32
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:33 am

Cathay can incur less wrath from China by firing the pilot in public earlier. Major China forums and media have already sent numerous warning to Cathay -- calling for justice.

It is the onus for Cathay to make a stand in front of public, sending a strong signal to everyone, that radicalized pilot will be banned.

Right now, China will demand no less than embedding a political commisar in Cathay.
 
scootaway
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:37 am

SQ32 wrote:
Cathay can incur less wrath from China by firing the pilot in public earlier. Major China forums and media have already sent numerous warning to Cathay -- calling for justice.

It is the onus for Cathay to make a stand in front of public, sending a strong signal to everyone, that radicalized pilot will be banned.

Right now, China will demand no less than embedding a political commisar in Cathay.


Only a matter of time before Cathay becomes Air China Hong Kong.
 
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zeke
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into

Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:19 am

United1 wrote:
There is a sprinkling of board members who are not part of Swire but yeah for the most part they are.


19 out of the 22 board members live and work in Hong Kong, only two from Air China and one independent non executive director from the US are outside of HKG.

United1 wrote:
The top two Slosar and Hogg have been with Swire for decades.


Yes both have been part of the Swire group for a very long time and promoted on their merits. Both live and work in HKG and are permanent HKG residents.

United1 wrote:
A good example of how much control and influence Swire has is one of the family is still on the board.


You haven’t demonstrated anything all, 1+1 does not equal 3.

United1 wrote:
Day to day decisions are clearly not run by the board, they rarely are at any major company, but strategic decisions absolutely are and I guarantee John Swire UK gets involved in those.


You are correct that day to day decisions are not normally made at board level, however executive directors on the board do have a role in the day to day operations.

Strategic decisions are made internally and proposals are submitted to the board for approval.
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zeke
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:30 am

SQ32 wrote:
Cathay can incur less wrath from China by firing the pilot in public earlier. Major China forums and media have already sent numerous warning to Cathay -- calling for justice.

It is the onus for Cathay to make a stand in front of public, sending a strong signal to everyone, that radicalized pilot will be banned.

Right now, China will demand no less than embedding a political commisar in Cathay.


In the western world it is normal practice to exercise natural justice. That means a person who has been charged has the presumption of innocence until a court has determined the matter.

Under Hong Kong law a police officer does not determine a persons innocence or guilt, only a court can do that. The Hong Kong judicatory is independent of the government.

Can you advise us all under what Hong Kong law this “political commisar” (sic) would be appointed ? how they would be selected ? and who would fund their position?

What other companies in Hong Kong have “political commisar” ? I have never seen such a position advertised before.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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SQ32
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:06 am

Liu Chung-yin, a 30-year-old pilot with Cathay Pacific, was arrested on July 28 during a violent demonstration in Hong Kong on riot charges with 43 other protesters. Liu was later released on bail and allowed to fly out of Hong Kong. Cathay Pacific didn't condemn Liu, nor did it say how to punish him, citing privacy reasons.

After that, it is reported that some 2,000 Cathay Pacific employees including 1,200 cabin crew and pilots took part in a strike on August 5. One staff member also leaked the flight information of a group of Hong Kong police that flew to the mainland.

The airline downplayed these abominable actions, severely undermining the trust of the industry and the public.

Whether it can ensure the highest standard of flight safety and services quality in the future has become unknown, and here come warnings and three requirements raised by CAAC to Cathay Pacific. If the airline cannot guarantee compliance with the new regulatory demands on flight safety, its flights cannot be allowed to fly to or over the mainland.

zeke wrote:
SQ32 wrote:
Cathay can incur less wrath from China by firing the pilot in public earlier. Major China forums and media have already sent numerous warning to Cathay -- calling for justice.

It is the onus for Cathay to make a stand in front of public, sending a strong signal to everyone, that radicalized pilot will be banned.

Right now, China will demand no less than embedding a political commisar in Cathay.


In the western world it is normal practice to exercise natural justice. That means a person who has been charged has the presumption of innocence until a court has determined the matter.

Under Hong Kong law a police officer does not determine a persons innocence or guilt, only a court can do that. The Hong Kong judicatory is independent of the government.

Can you advise us all under what Hong Kong law this “political commisar” (sic) would be appointed ? how they would be selected ? and who would fund their position?

What other companies in Hong Kong have “political commisar” ? I have never seen such a position advertised before.
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:18 am

SQ32 wrote:
Liu Chung-yin, a 30-year-old pilot with Cathay Pacific, was arrested on July 28 during a violent demonstration in Hong Kong on riot charges with 43 other protesters. Liu was later released on bail and allowed to fly out of Hong Kong. Cathay Pacific didn't condemn Liu, nor did it say how to punish him, citing privacy reasons.

After that, it is reported that some 2,000 Cathay Pacific employees including 1,200 cabin crew and pilots took part in a strike on August 5. One staff member also leaked the flight information of a group of Hong Kong police that flew to the mainland.

The airline downplayed these abominable actions, severely undermining the trust of the industry and the public.

Whether it can ensure the highest standard of flight safety and services quality in the future has become unknown, and here come warnings and three requirements raised by CAAC to Cathay Pacific. If the airline cannot guarantee compliance with the new regulatory demands on flight safety, its flights cannot be allowed to fly to or over the mainland.


Can you provide a source please?
 
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SQ32
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:24 am

I simply quote Global Times, the most important foreign facing mouthpiece of China. Above all, this article is by Hu Xijin, who is often seen as the unofficial spokesperson of CPC.

Like it or not, Global Times a subsidiary of People Daily, is among the most important communication channel of CPC, focusing on POVs that are too inconvenient for official agencies.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1161088.shtml

SQ22 wrote:
SQ32 wrote:
Liu Chung-yin, a 30-year-old pilot with Cathay Pacific, was arrested on July 28 during a violent demonstration in Hong Kong on riot charges with 43 other protesters. Liu was later released on bail and allowed to fly out of Hong Kong. Cathay Pacific didn't condemn Liu, nor did it say how to punish him, citing privacy reasons.

After that, it is reported that some 2,000 Cathay Pacific employees including 1,200 cabin crew and pilots took part in a strike on August 5. One staff member also leaked the flight information of a group of Hong Kong police that flew to the mainland.

The airline downplayed these abominable actions, severely undermining the trust of the industry and the public.

Whether it can ensure the highest standard of flight safety and services quality in the future has become unknown, and here come warnings and three requirements raised by CAAC to Cathay Pacific. If the airline cannot guarantee compliance with the new regulatory demands on flight safety, its flights cannot be allowed to fly to or over the mainland.


Can you provide a source please?
 
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zeke
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:45 am

SQ32 wrote:
Liu Chung-yin, a 30-year-old pilot with Cathay Pacific, was arrested on July 28 during a violent demonstration in Hong Kong on riot charges with 43 other protesters. Liu was later released on bail and allowed to fly out of Hong Kong. Cathay Pacific didn't condemn Liu, nor did it say how to punish him, citing privacy reasons.


Under HKG law, being arrested does not mean a person is guilty only a court can determine if a person is guilty. As you have said they were released that means they are still presumed innocent.

Please refer to the Hong Kong employment ordnance regarding wrongful dismissal.

SQ32 wrote:
After that, it is reported that some 2,000 Cathay Pacific employees including 1,200 cabin crew and pilots took part in a strike on August 5. One staff member also leaked the flight information of a group of Hong Kong police that flew to the mainland.


I doubt that very much, that would mean many flights would have had no cabin crew.

I also doubt the the allegations of crew leaking information regarding “police” on a flight. That is not something recorded in the passenger lists. Also the allegation can be proven to be baseless because of the paperless process CX uses.

Passenger information that crew have access to is contained electronically on company devices on the aircraft.

If the “police” were in uniform it is far more likely they were seen by any number of people within the terminal and presumably 200+ other passengers on the aircraft. Also a group of people in HKG Police uniforms speaking Cantonese with the wrong accent is very easy for locals to notice.

SQ32 wrote:
The airline downplayed these abominable actions, severely undermining the trust of the industry and the public.


The company as per usual practice does not make advice to staff public, especially that given to crew. You simply do not know what the company has said to their employees.

This is common for all all airlines I am aware of.

SQ32 wrote:
Whether it can ensure the highest standard of flight safety and services quality in the future has become unknown, and here come warnings and three requirements raised by CAAC to Cathay Pacific. If the airline cannot guarantee compliance with the new regulatory demands on flight safety, its flights cannot be allowed to fly to or over the mainland.


As I have shown above CX has been independently determined by JACDEC to be the safest airline in the region, safer than SQ. it ranked 12 th in the world.

None of the large mainland Chinese airlines even made the top 50 worldwide.

http://theflight.info/rating-of-the-mos ... orld-2018/

You did respond to these questions

Can you advise us all under what Hong Kong law this “political commisar” (sic) would be appointed ? how they would be selected ? and who would fund their position?

What other companies in Hong Kong have “political commisar” ? I have never seen such a position advertised before.
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SQ32
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:52 am

One more Cathay pilot suspended.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hong ... V30KP?il=0

Global Times, published by the Communist Party’s official People’s Daily, reported earlier on Tuesday that an anonymous message was posted online encouraging protesters to keep protesting at the Hong Kong airport and was accompanied by a picture of a cockpit.

Hong Kong flag carrier Cathay Pacific Airways said it had suspended with immediate effect on Tuesday a second officer operating flight CX216 for misuse of company information, and had also commenced internal disciplinary proceedings.

Image
 
blueflyer
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:04 pm

SQ32 wrote:
After that, it is reported that some 2,000 Cathay Pacific employees including 1,200 cabin crew and pilots took part in a strike on August 5. One staff member also leaked the flight information of a group of Hong Kong police that flew to the mainland.

The airline downplayed these abominable actions, severely undermining the trust of the industry and the public.

Whether it can ensure the highest standard of flight safety and services quality in the future has become unknown

So not only do we have to put up with Russian trolls, but Chinese ones too now? It is "abominable" to strike? People protesting on their spare time away from their place of employment are threatening the safety of their workplace? Planes are going to fall out of the skies because airline employees disagree with official Chinese policy? Exaggerate much?
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:14 pm

blueflyer wrote:
SQ32 wrote:
After that, it is reported that some 2,000 Cathay Pacific employees including 1,200 cabin crew and pilots took part in a strike on August 5. One staff member also leaked the flight information of a group of Hong Kong police that flew to the mainland.

The airline downplayed these abominable actions, severely undermining the trust of the industry and the public.

Whether it can ensure the highest standard of flight safety and services quality in the future has become unknown

So not only do we have to put up with Russian trolls, but Chinese ones too now? It is "abominable" to strike? People protesting on their spare time away from their place of employment are threatening the safety of their workplace? Planes are going to fall out of the skies because airline employees disagree with official Chinese policy? Exaggerate much?


What do you expect when his news source is Global Times?

Judging from his user name, I don’t think SQ32 is from mainland PRC, either (I would speculate Singapore), unlike B1168 or Zoedyn. But from what I saw on places like FB, the Singapore/Malaysia wumao army is definitely coming out in full force.
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Luftymatt
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:20 pm

janders wrote:
Please refrain from making political commentary.

Lets stick to the aviation angle.


Erm OK, there's quite a few Boeing 777's, A330's, A350's and A320's grounded at the moment in HKG.
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c933103
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:22 pm

blueflyer wrote:
SQ32 wrote:
After that, it is reported that some 2,000 Cathay Pacific employees including 1,200 cabin crew and pilots took part in a strike on August 5. One staff member also leaked the flight information of a group of Hong Kong police that flew to the mainland.

The airline downplayed these abominable actions, severely undermining the trust of the industry and the public.

Whether it can ensure the highest standard of flight safety and services quality in the future has become unknown

So not only do we have to put up with Russian trolls, but Chinese ones too now? It is "abominable" to strike? People protesting on their spare time away from their place of employment are threatening the safety of their workplace? Planes are going to fall out of the skies because airline employees disagree with official Chinese policy? Exaggerate much?

Well, except that is not troll but they are the official Chinese position. Explanation published by Chinese media say they are worried that those who participate in those "violent" protest, which is the current official classification by the Chinese government on basically all the protests in recent days, could have violent tendency, and thus they sat they're worried that those who participated in the protest could have violent behavior when controlling the plane, for example committing terroristic acts like crashing their planes toward people or buildings. The Chinese government have also expressed their view on the protest by claiming "everyone can see what they truly want is Hong Kong independence" despite protestors have denied that, and then the Chinese government define those who attend these protests as "supporting radical ideologies" which mean they are "radicalized". Also, because the Hong Kong government have stopped issuing permits to most protests in the city in recent weeks, many of those protests are now being described as illegal protests, thus everyone who're protesting at those time place have already broke the law.

There are rumors that CAAC is trying to ask Cathay to submit the full list of their three thousand staffs that have participated in the protest.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
Cerecl
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:20 pm

Lufthansa wrote:
While what you said is true and not just for airlines but all major companies and organisations in general.
There is one difference here. In the examples you have given, it would by the companies suggesting they have
violated their social media policy. They are self limiting exposure of their brand to controversies. BA aren't going to
fire a Captain because he supported the Yellow vest protestors and France didn't like it, and likewise France aren't
going to ban him due to a social media post unless he did something to incite violence or terrorism.
The Chinese government however are looking for a way to punish Hong Kong and one is to hurt Cathay.

I am not quite sure what you were trying to say. The examples I gave were not messages on social media. but during operation of an aircraft. No, BA is not going to fire a pilot who supports Yellow Vest, but if said pilot expressed his support during his in flight announcement you can be sure someone from BA will have a word with him to the effect of "stick to your job".
As to CX staff on social media, there were two ground staff who leaked confidential passenger information online and implied malicious intent. More recently as pointed out earlier this thread, there is a CX FA posting on social media asking protestors to return to the airport after he/she received inflight information of HKIA reopening. I think they are now all ex-CX staff.
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:26 pm

Both Swire Pacific, the majority shareholder of CX, and Cathay Pacific, issued their latest respective statement on Hong Kong chaos in either English or Chinese tonight Aug 13

Clearly, both statements send to the public an unmistakable message of their "resolute support" for the HK SAR gov, chief executive, and police to restore law and order to the city with a palpable sense of urgency btwn the lines with their characterization and judgment of the current HK situation in perfect alignment with what we've long heard from the central government in Beijing.

Image
Image

Judging by what's happening on the ground amid mounting volatility in HK AND the mounting toughening tones re HK commentary from Beijing, I believe the moment of decisive inflection OR showdown is fast approaching those seemingly endless illegal protests and rallies in the HK SAR. Fingers crossed for the Oriental Pearl :beady:
 
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SQ32
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:17 pm

China openly snubbed Cathay by revealing that it denied CX899 due to non-compliance of disclosure of aircrew.

SCMP also reported that the flight was carrying no pax.

That confirms leaks from China forums that instead of submitting to China, Cathay sent in an empty flight to test boundaries of CAAC, only to realized that CAAC was really enforcing her new guidelines.

***********************************************

A post published on Tuesday afternoon on the official Weibo account of China’s Central Political and Legal Affairs Commission, the ruling Communist Party’s organ managing the police and courts, claimed that CX899 failed to provide the required information regarding the identities of the crew, resulting in the flight being denied entry into Chinese airspace.

CX899 flight from Newark to Hong Kong was diverted to Osaka as it was carrying no passengers on board

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-econ ... condemning

Image


Image

c933103 wrote:
https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/1160885613241032704
There are rumors that, August 11's CX899, EWR->HKG, failed to obtain permission to cross the Chinese airspace and thus diverted to KIX after multiple hours of delay.
 
c933103
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:24 pm

SQ32 wrote:
China openly snubbed Cathay by revealing that it denied CX899 due to non-compliance of disclosure of aircrew.

SCMP also reported that the flight was carrying no pax.

That confirms leaks from China forums that instead of submitting to China, Cathay sent in an empty flight to test boundaries of CAAC, only to realized that CAAC was really enforcing her new guidelines.

***********************************************

A post published on Tuesday afternoon on the official Weibo account of China’s Central Political and Legal Affairs Commission, the ruling Communist Party’s organ managing the police and courts, claimed that CX899 failed to provide the required information regarding the identities of the crew, resulting in the flight being denied entry into Chinese airspace.

CX899 flight from Newark to Hong Kong was diverted to Osaka as it was carrying no passengers on board

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-econ ... condemning

Image


Image

c933103 wrote:
https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/1160885613241032704
There are rumors that, August 11's CX899, EWR->HKG, failed to obtain permission to cross the Chinese airspace and thus diverted to KIX after multiple hours of delay.

Cathay claim the diversion was to alleviate the burden of the Hong Kong airport at the time. https://m.mingpao.com/ins/港聞/article/20 ... 空交通擁擠故轉飛大阪
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:53 pm

c933103 wrote:
Cathay claim the diversion was to alleviate the burden of the Hong Kong airport at the time. https://m.mingpao.com/ins/港聞/article/20 ... 空交通擁擠故轉飛大阪


If that's the case, why not divert to MFM, SZX, CAN? Even ICN (assuming CX can use Chinese airspace) would have been less of a detour than KIX.
 
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zeke
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:18 pm

sincx wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Cathay claim the diversion was to alleviate the burden of the Hong Kong airport at the time. https://m.mingpao.com/ins/港聞/article/20 ... 空交通擁擠故轉飛大阪


If that's the case, why not divert to MFM, SZX, CAN? Even ICN (assuming CX can use Chinese airspace) would have been less of a detour than KIX.


My guess is no parking available at MFM, and the ground stop preventing departures from Chinese airports to HKG.

As the flight departed rather late they may have had duty limits.

Positioning to KIX may have also had a plan to operate out the early morning CX597 departure if aircraft could not depart HKG.

The reports seem to be embellished somewhat, you will see above they were blaming CX crew for leaking an itinerary to CTU when CX only operates freighter services to CTU. KA does the passenger flights to CTU. The leak came from airport ground staff not CX crew.

The truth is in the little details that anutters would understand, however many people seem to be lapping up the misleading media reports.
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ltbewr
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:25 pm

The parent companies of CX/Cathay are in a real bind. Their base airport is pretty much closed, they want to keep the SAR status for their financial well being, they don't want the protest hurting their business and they don't want to look like they are trying to suppress the legal rights of their employees off-duty. I am not sure of the labor law in HK, but I suspect in the two dismissals, the airline were correct under law, but lets face it, they don't want any hassles from the CAAC so they as we say in the USA, 'threw them under the bus', to protect their business.
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:33 pm

sincx wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Cathay claim the diversion was to alleviate the burden of the Hong Kong airport at the time. https://m.mingpao.com/ins/港聞/article/20 ... 空交通擁擠故轉飛大阪


If that's the case, why not divert to MFM, SZX, CAN? Even ICN (assuming CX can use Chinese airspace) would have been less of a detour than KIX.

There are no staff and nothing on the ground that are related to Cathay airlines at places like MFM or SZX.
And if those pilots are holding travel documents issued by Hong Kong SAR, then they cannot enter China using those travel document.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:36 pm

CX fires two pilots over protest incidents.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/tra ... -hong-kong
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zakuivcustom
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:59 pm

LAXintl wrote:
CX fires two pilots over protest incidents.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/tra ... -hong-kong


CX doesn't have much choice but to kowtow...again... :white:

c933103 wrote:
There are no staff and nothing on the ground that are related to Cathay airlines at places like MFM or SZX.
And if those pilots are holding travel documents issued by Hong Kong SAR, then they cannot enter China using those travel document.


IIRC KIX along with KHH are both very common diversion point for CX anyway. KIX instead of NRT/HND due to KIX being less busy, and same for KHH instead of TPE.

CX doesn't usually divert to a mainland airport unless it's an extreme emergency anyway AFAIK - too much hassle even before the current BS.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
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zeke
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:09 pm

c933103 wrote:
And if those pilots are holding travel documents issued by Hong Kong SAR, then they cannot enter China using those travel document.


Any crew who holds a HKG passport is by definition is a Chinese national (a requirement for the issue of the HKG passport ), and thus would be required to have their Home Return Permit (Mainland Travel Permit for Hong Kong and Macao Residents) with them which permits entry into mainland China.

However if an aircraft diverts to mainland China airport for a technical reason (weather/fuel), no crew are permitted by Chinese authorities to leave the aircraft even if it is to do a walk around. This is not the normal international convention, the international convention is to permit pilots to perform a walk around for aircraft safety before departure to ensure there is no damage, lights are working, oxygen and fire bottles have not discharged, condition of the wheels/brakes/gear, all panels and doors are closed, engine cowls are secure, inspection of engines, and inspection for bird strikes, inspection for fluid leaks etc.

CX has a very good relationship with ground handing agents in SZX, aircraft can be refueled and turned around efficiently. MFM also can be very efficient. The real issue is what caused the diversion in the first place, that is normally significant weather in HKG which means there would be flow control as the normal landing rate would have been reduced.

CX is effectively paperless for operational “documents” (flight plan packages, weather/ NOTAMS) and loadsheet. The “aircraft maintenance logbook” is also electronic with contingency procedures to enable self dispatch for offline port diversions.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:15 am

And if not MAS would or could

Cathay Pacific offshore it’s brand by a merger or takeover of any of these airlines for the sake of surviving the unpredictably China has seemed to bestow upon

free enterprise Hong Kong and Cathay.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... _of_Taiwan
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
LYuen
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:01 am

Cerecl wrote:
A question related to the topic: I recently came across a video clip purportedly recording a cabin announcement during a CX flight in support of the protestors in HK. The announcement itself is inoffensive and does not advocate violence. Nevertheless, what are the rules or regulations with regard to airline crews expressing their political view while on duty? This question is not limited to CX of course, what would an US airline do if one of its flight attendants hands out "MAGA" pamphlets in the cabin or a BA pilot at the end of his/her usual in-flight announcement adds "by the way, I really think Brexit is the worst thing we voted for for a long time"?

Update from local news: the captain has been sacked.
Mixed feeling of anger, despair and heartbroken, for both Cathay and Hong Kong.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:37 am

LYuen wrote:
Cerecl wrote:
A question related to the topic: I recently came across a video clip purportedly recording a cabin announcement during a CX flight in support of the protestors in HK. The announcement itself is inoffensive and does not advocate violence. Nevertheless, what are the rules or regulations with regard to airline crews expressing their political view while on duty? This question is not limited to CX of course, what would an US airline do if one of its flight attendants hands out "MAGA" pamphlets in the cabin or a BA pilot at the end of his/her usual in-flight announcement adds "by the way, I really think Brexit is the worst thing we voted for for a long time"?

Update from local news: the captain has been sacked.
Mixed feeling of anger, despair and heartbroken, for both Cathay and Hong Kong.


Officially he just "left the job", so it could be a resignation.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
juliuswong
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:25 am

Hi all, please stay on topic, thanks to those who have.

Also, thank you to those who have filed report thus far, we have given some members warning and ban to make sure every forum members are able to contribute constructively.

Thanks.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
mdavies06
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:53 am

viewtopic.php?t=1392805&start=50
viewtopic.php?t=1428209

Let's refresh our memories from the above two events in recent months relating to the Chinese aviation authority (CAAC) and the Chinese communist party (Chinese government is equal 100% to the China communist party). The CAAC policies are aligned with the wider policies of the ruling communist party and the latter does all it can to utilise CAAC to administer policy change to satisfy the need of the party. Anything happening in the world which serves to weaken the effectiveness of the party's agenda will be met with counter measures.

CX's responses to CAAC so far shows it has perfect understood this stance because its responses are HR based (people based) front and foremost, and CAAC's concern mainly amount to the political opposition action of small number of CX staffs. By the way, as you can probably guess, all China airlines staffs (private carriers and public carriers) are regularly taught the latest CAAC agenda which are subset of the parties agenda. All major China airlines have representatives from the ruling party sitting in the board of directors to ensure the parties agenda are followed top down.
 
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Aesma
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:19 pm

LAXintl wrote:
There is no inherent right to travel even in the U.S via airplane

If a government wants to bar you, they are certainly within their rights.


And in the US you are in your right to appeal the ban, and no judge will allow it to stand is there isn't a good reason. So yes, you do have that right.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
FSflyer899
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:14 pm

Seems there are lots of fear and skepticism among staffs and flight crew among the company, particularly on the mainland routes. If this continues how is it going to affect services and integrity of the workplace? So far there's nothing mentioned on the staffs of Cathay Dragon, which have many routes to the mainland, are they being affect by the whole situation?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49431513
 
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SQ32
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:50 am

The cabin crew union leader of Cathay Dragon has become the latest casualty of Hong Kong’s political crisis as local airlines buckle under pressure to toe Beijing’s line on taking a stand against the anti-government movement sweeping the city.

The Hong Kong Confederation of Trade Unions said it would hold a press conference on Friday to disclose the termination of Rebecca Sy On-na, chairwoman of the Hong Kong Dragon Airlines Flight Attendants’ Association.

It described her case as “white terror” but gave no further details on Thursday night.

An online petition has been launched demanding the company reinstate Sy, a flight attendant, and explain its actions.

Parent company Cathay Pacific Airways on Thursday warned staff that their social media content would be heavily scrutinised, and said posts expressing support for the ­protests could fall foul of a strict new policy being forced on the airline by mainland China’s aviation authority.

Image



https://sg.news.yahoo.com/cathay-dragon ... 02867.html
 
c933103
Topic Author
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:23 pm

https://inews.hket.com/article/2433526/ ... ?mtc=20009
Cathay issued a new guidance, saying that employee can be seen as violating the CAAC guidance by using social media in private, includes writing, publishing, sharing, or commenting other posts on social media platform. It is also said that the company will have "zero tolerance" over any support on illegal activities, any violation claim will be investigated by the company quickly. They also warned it staffs that content in private conversation between friends can still travel rapidly.
Also it is reported that some are using telegram groups to report Cathay employes who have left comments on the internet as well as those who have participated in protests.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:55 pm

And according to a radio show, another pilot just "resigned" (or force to leave) as he was barred from flying over mainland.

c933103 wrote:
Also it is reported that some are using telegram groups to report Cathay employes who have left comments on the internet as well as those who have participated in protests.


I believe that's what happen to the KA's union head (Somebody must have really hate her).

But yeah, I can't imagined the morale in CX/KA being high at all. The "purge" continues and personally IMHO it's a matter of time before a strike happen.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
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SQ32
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:25 pm

Pro-democracy legislator and pilot Jeremy Tam Man-ho resigned from Cathay Pacific Airways on Tuesday.

The former pilot saying the move could put an end to the “political storm” that has enveloped the airline.

Unfortunately Cathay is doing too little too late.


https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/08/21/c ... r-airline/


Image


Image
 
jupiter2
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:51 pm

SQ32 wrote:
Pro-democracy legislator and pilot Jeremy Tam Man-ho resigned from Cathay Pacific Airways on Tuesday.

The former pilot saying the move could put an end to the “political storm” that has enveloped the airline.

Unfortunately Cathay is doing too little too late.


https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/08/21/c ... r-airline/


Image


Image


Cathay shouldn't have to do anything. They are being dictated to by a political regime which doesn't like not getting their own way.

That may work on the mainland where the population is used to be dictated to and do as they're told, it's a lot harder for the population of Hong Kong which has grown up with freedoms most on the mainland couldn't imagine. That freedom is being whittled away and most realise that if they don't try and do something about it now, they most likely will never be able too. This is a critical point in time for the population of Hong Kong.

Maybe time for CX staff to come down with an illness when they are scheduled for any mainland flights :fever: :ill:
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:19 pm

Any use of social media is a violation. So much for privacy or free speech. CX has a very narrow window to operate in, now. How long can they walk the tightrope before failing? Sad.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
DDR
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:35 pm

c933103 wrote:
https://inews.hket.com/article/2433526/%E3%80%90%E5%9C%8B%E6%B3%B0%E9%A2%A8%E6%B3%A2%E3%80%91%E5%9C%8B%E6%B3%B0%E6%96%B0%E6%8C%87%E5%BC%95%EF%BC%9A%E5%B7%A5%E9%A4%98%E5%9C%A8%E7%A4%BE%E4%BA%A4%E5%AA%92%E9%AB%94%E7%95%99%E8%A8%80%20%E6%88%96%E7%8A%AF%E6%B0%91%E8%88%AA%E5%B1%80%E6%96%B0%E8%A6%8F?mtc=20009
Cathay issued a new guidance, saying that employee can be seen as violating the CAAC guidance by using social media in private, includes writing, publishing, sharing, or commenting other posts on social media platform. It is also said that the company will have "zero tolerance" over any support on illegal activities, any violation claim will be investigated by the company quickly. They also warned it staffs that content in private conversation between friends can still travel rapidly.
Also it is reported that some are using telegram groups to report Cathay employes who have left comments on the internet as well as those who have participated in protests.


Zeke, maybe you should refrain from posting on this forum until things settle down. You are respected and valued by all of us. Wouldn't want you getting into trouble.
 
DDR
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:37 pm

exFWAOONW wrote:
Any use of social media is a violation. So much for privacy or free speech. CX has a very narrow window to operate in, now. How long can they walk the tightrope before failing? Sad.


And that sucks because, CX is BY FAR the best Chinese airline.
 
N212R
Posts: 217
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:40 pm

Seems fairly obvious that the CCP will use every lever at their disposal to gain more influence at CX. The long game is breakdown and "reorganization" in the mainland mold. Don't expect them to stop their interference short of that goal.
 
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zeke
Posts: 13994
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Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:12 pm

exFWAOONW wrote:
Any use of social media is a violation. So much for privacy or free speech. CX has a very narrow window to operate in, now. How long can they walk the tightrope before failing? Sad.


All I can say is the article above has not accurately quoted the entire policy, the sentence has been truncated which significantly changes it meaning. The use of social media is not banned, the company even runs its own internal social media platform (yammer), and continue to use different social media platforms to communicate with employees and customers.

In reality the social medial policy has not changed it would be very similar to any other large international organizations. The company has always had a zero tolerance approach to illegal or unlawful activities, and that is not unique, all large organizations are the same. I think every large organisation would have in their employment contracts not to participate in illegal or unlawful activities.

DDR wrote:
Zeke, maybe you should refrain from posting on this forum until things settle down. You are respected and valued by all of us. Wouldn't want you getting into trouble.


Thank you for your concern. I have always been mindful of what I post. Like I have just posted above, nothing has really changed in terms of policy, I have never supported illegal or unlawful activities.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5196
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:33 pm

SQ32 wrote:
Pro-democracy legislator and pilot Jeremy Tam Man-ho resigned from Cathay Pacific Airways on Tuesday.

The former pilot saying the move could put an end to the “political storm” that has enveloped the airline.

Unfortunately Cathay is doing too little too late.


https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/08/21/c ... r-airline/


Image


Image


you're adding nothing but running commentary and tidbits...typical of the way Chinese operatives operate.
 
DTVG
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:06 pm

Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:01 pm

Anybody with a brain (yes some chickens without heads here) knows that this matter is political. Swire as a conglomerate with 80% if its employees in China/HK will have to bow down and accept what Beijing has to say. That's the reality and the business risk of operating in the region. Whether its morally ok and (in the long term) sustainable is another question.
SQ32s and all his quotes from Chinese government tabloids will say this is fair, others will say it is not. Probably the question is how long you plan on operating in the region and how long the party will go on (economically speaking).
 
c933103
Topic Author
Posts: 3824
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: CAAC issued security warning against Cathay over Hong Kong protest, ban protest-supporting staffs from flying into C

Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:50 am

exFWAOONW wrote:
Any use of social media is a violation. So much for privacy or free speech. CX has a very narrow window to operate in, now. How long can they walk the tightrope before failing? Sad.

I think what the article actually want to say is that employee can be seen as violating the rule for the content they post/share/comment on social media, instead of just the action of using social media itself.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.

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