Jutlander
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SU / KL IL-62

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:03 pm

I was browsing an old book and I found a picture of an IL-62. It was in old Soviet SU paint scheme, but under the Aeroflot titles on the fuselage it has the name KLM. It's difficult to make out the registration of the aircraft on the photo, but I think it says CCCP-86652. Could be wrong because the picture is unclear and it is in black and white. The book does not give any information.

Does anybody know the story behind this aircraft? Why would a Soviet plane carry KLM titles?
 
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mercure1
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:11 pm

During early 1970s KLM (among a few other airlines) had what today would be considered joint venture partnership with SU.
Airlines had a partnership that operated Amsterdam - Moscow - Tokyo service with mixed SU(cockpit)/KL(cabin) crews. This allowed KL to serve Far East with shorter timings then existing service via Anchorage US.

Image
mercure f-wtcc
 
Jutlander
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:17 pm

Interesting, I did not know this. What other airlines had a similar service and on what aircraft? How did the KL pax feel about flying a Soviet plane?
 
MaksFly
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:32 pm

wow, cool piece of history!
 
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mercure1
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:36 pm

I know Air France and JAL had similar arrangements.

Air France starting in 1968 used SU IL-62 for 2x weekly service to Japan via Moscow. Air France also later had an arrangement for SU Tu-154 service to Kiev from Paris, plus joint cargo service on various routes using SU An-12 freighter.

JAL also used prop Tu-114s in 1960s and later IL-62 with SU

Image
Image




JAL
mercure f-wtcc
 
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Ty134A
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:10 pm

please anybody of our dutch friends find out if there is any crew of these flights still accessible for further info. those were so cool times.... i would just love to know how they felt aboard su and how this worked. most likely they enjoyed it in some kind. i use every second talking to guys thst actually lived in these times. they are so much getting less in active service. if somebody knows something, please post!!!!
flown on: TU3,TU5,T20,IL8,IL6,ILW,IL9,I14,YK4,YK2,AN2,AN4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80,M87,
AB4,AB6,318,313,342,343,345,346,712,703,722,732,735,741,742,743,74L,744,752,753,763,772,77W,J31,F50,F70,100,ATP,
142,143,AR8,AR1,SF3,S20,D38,MIH...
 
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longhauler
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:42 pm

Jutlander wrote:
Interesting, I did not know this. What other airlines had a similar service and on what aircraft? How did the KL pax feel about flying a Soviet plane?


I flew on an Aeroflot IL-62 in the 1960s. The standard of service was better than most European carriers and the aircraft itself was far more modern and comfortable (quieter) than the DC-8 on which KLMs passengers were expecting to fly. I am sure they were OK with it.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
cityshuttle
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:10 pm

Very interesting details in regards to AF-SU and KL-SU.

That previous cooperation might be a reason why they all ended up being members of the Skyteam Alliance !
Last edited by cityshuttle on Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
factsonly
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:11 pm

During the 1960's European and Japanese airlines operated two routes Europe-Japan:

1. via the South (multiple stops over Asia),
2. via the North (one-stop over Anchorage)

To reduce travel time several European nations and Japan opened bilateral discussions with the Soviet Union to gain traffic rights over Siberia. The Soviet Union insisted that Aeroflot would benefit from any trans-Siberian operations to/from Japan and several airlines leased Aeroflot aircraft and crews to meet Soviet demands. Later Japan, Germany, France and the UK gained approval to operate their own aircraft across Siberia (but paying fees to Aeroflot), reason why Japan Airlines, BOAC, Air France and Lufthansa were the first airlines to operate their own aircraft over Siberia with an intermediate stop at SVO. While SAS gained rights for DC8 service CPH-Taskent-BKK, for many years the fastest route from Europe to Asia.

The Netherlands, as a smaller nation, did not gain the right to operate its own aircraft across Siberia and KLM continued low frequency Aeroflot IL62 AMS-SVO-TYO v.v. service into the 1970's, until this was no longer judged economic. LH, AF and BOAC could offer higher frequencies on their own metal and later were even permitted non-stop service over Siberia.
KLM's weekly Trans-Siberia IL62 service was in addition to KLM's 3x weekly AMS-ANC-TYO on DC8, and 2x weekly AMS-FRA-BEY-DEL-BKK-MNL-TYO on B747. In 1973 one of these B747 AMS-TYO flights was hijacked to Damascus, Nicosia, Tripoli, Malta, and finally Dubai, where the hijackers surrendered to authorities. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLM_Flight_861 . In conclusion to this hijacking KLM presented the Ruler of Dubai some racing horses, in return for which the Ruler of Dubai granted KLM unlimited traffic rights to/from DXB.

The KLM/Aeroflot operations was crewed by Soviet cockpit and cabin crew, supported by KLM cabin crew. Among the retired KLM cabin crews will be people who staffed IL62 flights.

 
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Tabito
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:45 pm

mercure1 wrote:
I know Air France and JAL had similar arrangements.

Air France starting in 1968 used SU IL-62 for 2x weekly service to Japan via Moscow. Air France also later had an arrangement for SU Tu-154 service to Kiev from Paris, plus joint cargo service on various routes using SU An-12 freighter.

JAL also used prop Tu-114s in 1960s and later IL-62 with SU

Image
Image




JAL


In JL-SU joint TYO-MOW service,
All cockpit crew from SU, 5 cabin crew from each airlines.
There are some historic pictures at TYO-MOW route 50th anniversary ceremony at NRT. (Japanese only, sorry)
https://travel.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/1056065.html
 
clipperlondon
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:46 pm

Tabito wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
I know Air France and JAL had similar arrangements.

Air France starting in 1968 used SU IL-62 for 2x weekly service to Japan via Moscow. Air France also later had an arrangement for SU Tu-154 service to Kiev from Paris, plus joint cargo service on various routes using SU An-12 freighter.

JAL also used prop Tu-114s in 1960s and later IL-62 with SU

Image
Image

Absolutely fascinating article. And great historical perspective & neat pix too.

BTW I have Google Chrome, so it will ask you if you want to translate. Easy peasy...




JAL


In JL-SU joint TYO-MOW service,
All cockpit crew from SU, 5 cabin crew from each airlines.
There are some historic pictures at TYO-MOW route 50th anniversary ceremony at NRT. (Japanese only, sorry)
https://travel.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/1056065.html
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:39 pm

I noticed the IL-62 seemed to have more toilets than American designed aircraft of similar capacity.

Do Russias Design Engineers consider biological needs to be more important than American design engineers. Or are America’s lavatory designs more user friendly to get in and out of quickly than the Russians designs I wonder? (5 toilets IL-62)

Thanks for posting this info about airlines that JV’ed in early years. Totally insightful and always looking forward to hearing how successful these early arrangements were. Or were not.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:15 am

My hardcover book, “A Day With Aeroflot,” gifted to me by the Aeroflot ticket office on 5th Avenue jn NYC in 1975 has pictures of the Aeroflot-JL IL-62, along with hundreds of other pictures from that era, I treasure it. I doubt that there are very many left in existence.

One thing that was very obvious...the Aeroflot flight attendants of that era on domestic flights tended towards the sturdy and generously proportioned....unheard of for flight attendants elsewhere in those days. Domestic routes featured dour-looking flight attendants in severe uniforms. The flight attendants on International routes had more stylish uniforms; and seemed to conform to the world norm at the time...fit and attractive.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:21 am

An interesting piece of history forgotten by time, thanks for bringing it up. Was KLM pioneering this? I know they were the first to have a comprehensive agreement for transatlantic flights with North-West Airlines, which continues to this day.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
workhorse
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:03 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
I noticed the IL-62 seemed to have more toilets than American designed aircraft of similar capacity.

Do Russias Design Engineers consider biological needs to be more important than American design engineers. Or are America’s lavatory designs more user friendly to get in and out of quickly than the Russians designs I wonder? (5 toilets IL-62)


Not only toilets. The Il-62 in general was characterized by a very generous use of cabin space. It also had huge galleys, completely unimaginable on today's narrowbody, and wardrobes for people to leave their coats before going to their seats (even in economy).

Consider the fact that in standard configuration it took only 168 Y pax while its cabin is several meters longer than that of the A321.
Last edited by workhorse on Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:15 am

DIJKKIJK wrote:
SU has such an arrangement with Air India as well.

The caption that comes along with one of the photos below (both showing the logo in Hindi on the other side) says it was a straight lease.
The fact that all Aeroflot titles were removed also points to a different kind of "arrangement", but if you have further evidence that it was a joint venture then I'll have to accept that. :D
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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LH748
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:36 am

I had no idea about this part of aviation history and find it absolutely fascinating.
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longhauler
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:34 pm

millionsofmiles wrote:
My hardcover book, “A Day With Aeroflot,” gifted to me by the Aeroflot ticket office on 5th Avenue jn NYC in 1975 has pictures of the Aeroflot-JL IL-62, along with hundreds of other pictures from that era, I treasure it. I doubt that there are very many left in existence.

That's amazing. I have a copy of the same book. I found it at a used book store about 10 years ago. I think I paid $5 for it!!!
(I don't think he knew what he had).

KlimaBXsst wrote:
I noticed the IL-62 seemed to have more toilets than American designed aircraft of similar capacity.

Do Russias Design Engineers consider biological needs to be more important than American design engineers. Or are America’s lavatory designs more user friendly to get in and out of quickly than the Russians designs I wonder? (5 toilets IL-62)


Maybe by today's standards. But Air Canada's 123 passenger DC-8-40/50s had 6 toilets. I think that was common for the 707 as well. But I echo the comments above. The IL-62 had a huge cabin with a lot of wasted space, by any standard. Quite a luxury today.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:07 pm

Two points about initial Soviet Aeroflot requirements towards interior arrangements on mainline equipment:
1) Very generous space for coat hangers. Justified by the fact that Aeroflot flew to some of the most inhospitable climates, and every passenger was expected to show up in heavy coat, often fur coat.
(Rumor has it, often this initial requirement was later diluted -- every operating company (Soviet Aeroflot was a network of legal entities, and each of these legal entities liked to make money) could look at increasing seat count.)
2) Toilets were indeed planned generously on long-range birds. Il-96 had tail section occupied by eight (AFAIR) toilets side-by side, for economy class passengers.
Il-62 was THE long-range bird, often flying as long as 12 hours. Six toilets probably were a reasonable number, if you consider that you needed a separate toilet (or two) for first class (shared with the cockpit crew of five), one or two toilets for business class, and the rest for economy pax.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
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KlimaBXsst
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:15 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Two points about initial Soviet Aeroflot requirements towards interior arrangements on mainline equipment:
1) Very generous space for coat hangers. Justified by the fact that Aeroflot flew to some of the most inhospitable climates, and every passenger was expected to show up in heavy coat, often fur coat.
(Rumor has it, often this initial requirement was later diluted -- every operating company (Soviet Aeroflot was a network of legal entities, and each of these legal entities liked to make money) could look at increasing seat count.)
2) Toilets were indeed planned generously on long-range birds. Il-96 had tail section occupied by eight (AFAIR) toilets side-by side, for economy class passengers.
Il-62 was THE long-range bird, often flying as long as 12 hours. Six toilets probably were a reasonable number, if you consider that you needed a separate toilet (or two) for first class (shared with the cockpit crew of five), one or two toilets for business class, and the rest for economy pax.


Thank you for sharing your observations. Very interesting side notes.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
tu204
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:40 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
DIJKKIJK wrote:
SU has such an arrangement with Air India as well.

The caption that comes along with one of the photos below (both showing the logo in Hindi on the other side) says it was a straight lease.
The fact that all Aeroflot titles were removed also points to a different kind of "arrangement", but if you have further evidence that it was a joint venture then I'll have to accept that. :D


Interesting why did Air India lease it, how many in total and for how long? Surprised as they were clearly Boeing customers.

Anyone have any info here?
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millionsofmiles
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:04 pm

longhauler wrote:
millionsofmiles wrote:
My hardcover book, “A Day With Aeroflot,” gifted to me by the Aeroflot ticket office on 5th Avenue jn NYC in 1975 has pictures of the Aeroflot-JL IL-62, along with hundreds of other pictures from that era, I treasure it. I doubt that there are very many left in existence.

That's amazing. I have a copy of the same book. I found it at a used book store about 10 years ago. I think I paid $5 for it!!!
(I don't think he knew what he had).

KlimaBXsst wrote:
I noticed the IL-62 seemed to have more toilets than American designed aircraft of similar capacity.

Do Russias Design Engineers consider biological needs to be more important than American design engineers. Or are America’s lavatory designs more user friendly to get in and out of quickly than the Russians designs I wonder? (5 toilets IL-62)


Maybe by today's standards. But Air Canada's 123 passenger DC-8-40/50s had 6 toilets. I think that was common for the 707 as well. But I echo the comments above. The IL-62 had a huge cabin with a lot of wasted space, by any standard. Quite a luxury today.


Dude...talk about being in the right place at the right time. That book is a period piece that will never be duplicated. I remember analyzing every word and every picture. The Aeroflot office could always be depended upon for unique promotional literature but this book was a real prize for me.
 
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aeromoe
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:07 pm

[quote="millionsofmiles"} dour-looking flight attendants in severe uniforms.[/quote]

Please further describe a "severe" uniform!
AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR BY B6 CO CP(2) DG DL EA EI EN FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(1) OZ(2) PA PI PT QF QQ RM RO RV(1) RV(2) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(2) ZZ 9K
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:53 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Two points about initial Soviet Aeroflot requirements towards interior arrangements on mainline equipment:
1) Very generous space for coat hangers. Justified by the fact that Aeroflot flew to some of the most inhospitable climates, and every passenger was expected to show up in heavy coat, often fur coat.

In most countries, people expect to walk directly from the terminal building down an airbridge and into an aircraft without ever seeing daylight. In Russia, things can be much more basic, which is great if the weather is ok.

Indeed, the Wikipedia page for the Tu-154 contains this interesting fact.
Wikipedia wrote:
[Tu-154]The passenger cabin accommodates 128 passengers in a two-class layout and 164 passengers in single-class layout, and up to 180 passengers in high-density layout. The layout can be modified to what is called a winter version where some seats are taken out and a wardrobe is installed for passenger coats.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
ugobeck
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:15 am

Alitalia Siberian service to Japan started in 1973 on DC8 (I cannot recall if 43 or 62). Passengers were required to keep windows shut during the second stopover, in IKT. Alitalia could be more or less on par with other carriers due to the special relationship Soviet Union and Italy developed at that time: for instance, FIAT plants in Togliattigrad started production in late 1972. They made 124 sedans; the same model was popular in California as a spider
 
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eta unknown
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:43 am

I believe the AI service was to SVO and yes it was a lease. They may have been short of aircraft at the time- at one point they also leased a TriStar 500.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:04 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Two points about initial Soviet Aeroflot requirements towards interior arrangements on mainline equipment:
1) Very generous space for coat hangers. Justified by the fact that Aeroflot flew to some of the most inhospitable climates, and every passenger was expected to show up in heavy coat, often fur coat.

In most countries, people expect to walk directly from the terminal building down an airbridge and into an aircraft without ever seeing daylight. In Russia, things can be much more basic, which is great if the weather is ok.


Correct. But even if airbridges were there, it's not like the need for heavy outerwear would dissipate. If your origin and/or destination airports feature -30oC (and sometimes -50oC) outside, it's not like availability of an airbridge rescues you from a requirement of having your survival gear (heavy coat/cap and other such) handy.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
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aeromoe
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:18 am

aeromoe wrote:
[quote="millionsofmiles"} dour-looking flight attendants in severe uniforms.


Please further describe a "severe" uniform![/quote]

Fair enough. So which of these adjectives applies?

adjective

1.
(of something bad or undesirable) very great; intense.
"a severe shortage of technicians"
synonyms: acute, very bad, serious, grave, critical, dire, drastic, grievous, extreme, dreadful, terrible, awful, frightful, appalling, sore; More
2.
strict or harsh.
"the charges would have warranted a severe sentence"
synonyms: harsh, hard, bitter, bitterly cold, cold, bleak, freezing, icy, arctic, polar, Siberian, extreme, nasty
AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR BY B6 CO CP(2) DG DL EA EI EN FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(1) OZ(2) PA PI PT QF QQ RM RO RV(1) RV(2) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(2) ZZ 9K
 
GDB
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:31 am

millionsofmiles wrote:
My hardcover book, “A Day With Aeroflot,” gifted to me by the Aeroflot ticket office on 5th Avenue jn NYC in 1975 has pictures of the Aeroflot-JL IL-62, along with hundreds of other pictures from that era, I treasure it. I doubt that there are very many left in existence.

One thing that was very obvious...the Aeroflot flight attendants of that era on domestic flights tended towards the sturdy and generously proportioned....unheard of for flight attendants elsewhere in those days. Domestic routes featured dour-looking flight attendants in severe uniforms. The flight attendants on International routes had more stylish uniforms; and seemed to conform to the world norm at the time...fit and attractive.


I have it too!
Found when I was doing my last task with BA Concorde Engineering in late 2003, sorting through our Concorde Engineering archive to find and copy the more historic tech logs, like the first service to BAH in 1976, then to IAD, first JFK service etc (making sure the logs for all my flights on the bird were copied too - pretty much Nil Defects on them all, just sayin').

As well as all sorts of other gems, a Braniff Concorde Flight manual, the plan for a Fed Ex conversion of a spare aircraft in 1979/80, potential APU fitments, minutes of a meeting at Pan Am HQ in 1964 between them and BAC discussing the aircraft after PA took options, every kind of flight and engineering manual and press packs for demo tours.

Much of this found it's way to the Brooklands Museum, including drawings of the Negus and Negus livery which those making G-BBDG into the attraction it is, put to good use.

In all of this was an odd find, this early 1970's Aeroflot book, lent out from the BA Engineering Training Centre at Cranebank years before and never returned, well it's in my safe keeping now!

I feel I must gallantly defend the stereotype of study Russian FA's, sure plenty DID conform to that stereotype, as you say they were more choosy for international routes, however digging this fascinating book out I cite (photographic pages not being numbered), the following;
Plate 'With The Party Leading' - Stewardess Delegate To The 16th YCL A. Kirillova.
'The New Generation Carries On' - The Voronezh Girls Talent Group.
'Graduation To Airmanship' (in medicine/in a rescue training rig), the all Union Of Aeroflot Stewardesses in Sukhumi, including the winner, Katyusha Kuzetsova from Rostov On Don.
(I bet most of them ended up flying internationally).

The standard of photo reproduction is not great, save for some colour plates, nonetheless a fascinating look at a large part of the civil aviation world of the early 70's almost unknown in the West.

And what would I have given for a ride on one of those TU-114's, (not the TU-144 however!)
 
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Loran
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:36 am

Phosphorus wrote:
Two points about initial Soviet Aeroflot requirements towards interior arrangements on mainline equipment:
1) Very generous space for coat hangers. Justified by the fact that Aeroflot flew to some of the most inhospitable climates, and every passenger was expected to show up in heavy coat, often fur coat.
(Rumor has it, often this initial requirement was later diluted -- every operating company (Soviet Aeroflot was a network of legal entities, and each of these legal entities liked to make money) could look at increasing seat count.)
2) Toilets were indeed planned generously on long-range birds. Il-96 had tail section occupied by eight (AFAIR) toilets side-by side, for economy class passengers.
Il-62 was THE long-range bird, often flying as long as 12 hours. Six toilets probably were a reasonable number, if you consider that you needed a separate toilet (or two) for first class (shared with the cockpit crew of five), one or two toilets for business class, and the rest for economy pax.

While I agree the non-seating area in the Ilyushins is quite generous, the seating area is exactly the opposite and undercuts anything I have seen before :crowded: The (negative) number 1 spot in regards to seat pitch holds the Il-86, followed by the Il-62 and Il-18. Whereas seating in the west was/is mostly buyer furnished equipment, to my knowledge Soviet airplanes came with pre-defined seating. This is ok for a 2h flight, but 9h missions across Siberia must have been a nightmare in Y. I have made this experience across all major Soviet airplane types.

Regards,
Loran
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Phosphorus
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:23 pm

Loran wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Two points about initial Soviet Aeroflot requirements towards interior arrangements on mainline equipment:
1) Very generous space for coat hangers. Justified by the fact that Aeroflot flew to some of the most inhospitable climates, and every passenger was expected to show up in heavy coat, often fur coat.
(Rumor has it, often this initial requirement was later diluted -- every operating company (Soviet Aeroflot was a network of legal entities, and each of these legal entities liked to make money) could look at increasing seat count.)
2) Toilets were indeed planned generously on long-range birds. Il-96 had tail section occupied by eight (AFAIR) toilets side-by side, for economy class passengers.
Il-62 was THE long-range bird, often flying as long as 12 hours. Six toilets probably were a reasonable number, if you consider that you needed a separate toilet (or two) for first class (shared with the cockpit crew of five), one or two toilets for business class, and the rest for economy pax.

While I agree the non-seating area in the Ilyushins is quite generous, the seating area is exactly the opposite and undercuts anything I have seen before :crowded: The (negative) number 1 spot in regards to seat pitch holds the Il-86, followed by the Il-62 and Il-18. Whereas seating in the west was/is mostly buyer furnished equipment, to my knowledge Soviet airplanes came with pre-defined seating. This is ok for a 2h flight, but 9h missions across Siberia must have been a nightmare in Y. I have made this experience across all major Soviet airplane types.

Regards,
Loran


I tend to agree with horrible seating on Soviet airplanes. One exception -- last of the Soviet airliners -- Il-96-300. Being underpowered, it had a generous seat pitch in economy. Actually, I found their economy seating (9 abreast) even somewhat more comfortable than their business class seating (8 abreast). There was a better section -- first class, but I never got to experience it.

Regional airplanes were configured absolutely atrociously. Yak-42 had, literally, benches, at least at some of Babyflots. I know some operators later installed better seating. Let-410 seats were invented by someone with torture chamber experience.

Mainline airliners were also not particularly generous with seat pitch. also, many planes had soft seat backs. Being a tallish fellow, I probably was hated by people who sat in front of me, as my knees were firmly in their backs. More than that -- my knees tend to start hurting is situations like that (less then -- I was younger; but still...) and I need to move and wiggle, to relieve pain. Passengers ahead obviously hated me for this even more.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
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millionsofmiles
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:18 am

Re: SU / KL IL-62

Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:01 pm

GDB wrote:
millionsofmiles wrote:
My hardcover book, “A Day With Aeroflot,” gifted to me by the Aeroflot ticket office on 5th Avenue jn NYC in 1975 has pictures of the Aeroflot-JL IL-62, along with hundreds of other pictures from that era, I treasure it. I doubt that there are very many left in existence.

One thing that was very obvious...the Aeroflot flight attendants of that era on domestic flights tended towards the sturdy and generously proportioned....unheard of for flight attendants elsewhere in those days. Domestic routes featured dour-looking flight attendants in severe uniforms. The flight attendants on International routes had more stylish uniforms; and seemed to conform to the world norm at the time...fit and attractive.


I have it too!
Found when I was doing my last task with BA Concorde Engineering in late 2003, sorting through our Concorde Engineering archive to find and copy the more historic tech logs, like the first service to BAH in 1976, then to IAD, first JFK service etc (making sure the logs for all my flights on the bird were copied too - pretty much Nil Defects on them all, just sayin').

As well as all sorts of other gems, a Braniff Concorde Flight manual, the plan for a Fed Ex conversion of a spare aircraft in 1979/80, potential APU fitments, minutes of a meeting at Pan Am HQ in 1964 between them and BAC discussing the aircraft after PA took options, every kind of flight and engineering manual and press packs for demo tours.

Much of this found it's way to the Brooklands Museum, including drawings of the Negus and Negus livery which those making G-BBDG into the attraction it is, put to good use.

In all of this was an odd find, this early 1970's Aeroflot book, lent out from the BA Engineering Training Centre at Cranebank years before and never returned, well it's in my safe keeping now!

I feel I must gallantly defend the stereotype of study Russian FA's, sure plenty DID conform to that stereotype, as you say they were more choosy for international routes, however digging this fascinating book out I cite (photographic pages not being numbered), the following;
Plate 'With The Party Leading' - Stewardess Delegate To The 16th YCL A. Kirillova.
'The New Generation Carries On' - The Voronezh Girls Talent Group.
'Graduation To Airmanship' (in medicine/in a rescue training rig), the all Union Of Aeroflot Stewardesses in Sukhumi, including the winner, Katyusha Kuzetsova from Rostov On Don.
(I bet most of them ended up flying internationally).

The standard of photo reproduction is not great, save for some colour plates, nonetheless a fascinating look at a large part of the civil aviation world of the early 70's almost unknown in the West.

And what would I have given for a ride on one of those TU-114's, (not the TU-144 however!)


Attractive physical attributes aside, stewardesses in the International Directorate had to be good Party members, able to pass the most rigorous background checks, which included family members. The risk of defections was not taken likely.

When SU began flying to JFK, Aeroflot crews stayed at the Russian Embassy in NYC. I still remember the heavy security around the embassy when I was a kid including permanently stationed police barricades.

I was roommates years ago with a Russian-speaking flight attendant who flew for Pan Am. He flew the 1980s joint venture with Aeroflot which operated with Pan Am 747s; a full Pan Am crew supplemented by three Aeroflot flight attendants. He told me that they were usually lovely but that one out of the three would always be unusually inquisitive, asking questions of the crew like, “Do you have friends in Moscow? Are you bringing them gifts?”

Several Pan Am flight attendants flying that route had their visas revoked when they were discovered to have been importing sought-after goods into Russia, such as jeans. And a number were given some difficulties entering Russia due to “jumpseat talk” about their activities while on layover.

During 70s and 80s, other directorates could also fly certain international routes, such as LHR. There is a great compilation of trip reports in an old av geek magazine from around 1989 which detailed a series of flights taken on Aeroflot with a variety of directorates and the varying levels of service/amenities was jarring in some cases.
 
PaulYUL
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:36 pm

Re: SU / KL IL-62

Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:14 pm

I have had the opportunity to do half a dozen Atlantic crossings on IL62M in the first part of the 90’s with both Aeroflot and Air Ukraine in First Class and Economy on Air Ukraine and business class on Aeroflot. The later between Montreal and Moscow was interesting because the business class seat were the regular economy seat but a much greater pitch. The folding tray was still on the back of the seat ahead of us and therefore unreachable. We had to keep the food tray on our lap for meal.

Having said that, it was comfortable in all classes as the pitch was reasonable in economy. The comfort was similar in many ways to the western aircraft counterpart. And this applies also on the other soviet time aircraft (TU 134, TU 154, AN 24 and YAK 40) that I had the opportunity to fly as passenger. It is on an IL-62 that I saw for the first time a water mixer for the sink in the toilet. At the time, both Airbus and Boeing had a system where you had to push both the cold and warm faucet to get lukewarm water and it made me wonder why the western aircraft did not have such a system.

On the other hand, I was told by colleagues with firsthand experience, that the TU 114 was a terrible aircraft from a passenger comfort perspective with a high level of noise and vibration.
 
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longhauler
Posts: 6274
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:48 pm

PaulYUL wrote:
On the other hand, I was told by colleagues with firsthand experience, that the TU 114 was a terrible aircraft from a passenger comfort perspective with a high level of noise and vibration.

Many years ago, I used to fly with my Dad on trips. He too was an Air Canada pilot.

When on the DC-8 he took me to Moscow as it was an unusual cycle. He worked YUL-CPH-SVO (with me as a passenger on a dependant pass). Laid over in Moscow for three days, then was to deadhead home SVO-SNN-YUL on an IL-62 of SU. Both airlines, under a pool agreement, operated only once a week.

Imagine my joy, when at SVO for our return, the IL-62 was subbed to a TU-114. It even had Japan Air Lines written on the lower fuselage. I don't know it this was during the Joint Agreement with JL, or shortly after, but it was one of the few TU-114s in an F/Y configuration I guess.

We sat in F, which was the rear cabin. It was arranged 2x2 in very comfortable thick seats with lots of legroom. It was a huge aircraft with lots of wasted space. A crew rest area at the front, two Y cabins 3x3, very large galley, then something odd ... four compartments that look like they came right out of a railway carriage. They were not used on this trip. Then F at the rear.

The cabin service was superb! Better than anything I had seen and I had travelled F on some pretty fine airlines of the day. But .... the noise. It wasn't too bad in the back. I figured it was about the same as a Vanguard. (also known for vibration and noise). But when visiting the cockpit and walking forward, I honestly could not believe the noise and vibration at the front of the aircraft! There were only about 30 passengers, and those not in F sat at the rear of the second Y cabin.

However, the thing was a beast. As the fuel stop in SNN was not necessary, we flew non-stop SVO to YUL. Not cruising as fast as an IL-62, we still arrived only about half an hour late in YUL. I treasure that flight today. Even at my young age, I think I was about 8 and an aviation geek even then, I knew that would be my only chance to fly on such an aircraft and that I would more opportunities to fly on an IL-62 in the future!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
DWC
Posts: 473
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:49 pm

Re: SU / KL IL-62

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:42 am

This thread has been very interesting !
I remember flying several IL-62, both on Lot & Aeroflot in the 1980s, across the Atlantic & within the USSR, my memories are hazy as to what belongs to which, but I do vividly remember two odd things :
1) On aeroflot, the FA counted the metal cuttlery when taking back the tray, guess too many av geeks were taking souvenirs.
2) Smoking area was on the left (or right) side, non-smoking on the right (left) side, preposterous as the other non-smoking half of the plane was soon filled with smoke. Anyone remember which of Lot or Aeroflot had this funny smoking division ?
 
tu204
Posts: 1911
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: SU / KL IL-62

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:43 am

longhauler wrote:
PaulYUL wrote:
On the other hand, I was told by colleagues with firsthand experience, that the TU 114 was a terrible aircraft from a passenger comfort perspective with a high level of noise and vibration.

Many years ago, I used to fly with my Dad on trips. He too was an Air Canada pilot.

When on the DC-8 he took me to Moscow as it was an unusual cycle. He worked YUL-CPH-SVO (with me as a passenger on a dependant pass). Laid over in Moscow for three days, then was to deadhead home SVO-SNN-YUL on an IL-62 of SU. Both airlines, under a pool agreement, operated only once a week.

Imagine my joy, when at SVO for our return, the IL-62 was subbed to a TU-114. It even had Japan Air Lines written on the lower fuselage. I don't know it this was during the Joint Agreement with JL, or shortly after, but it was one of the few TU-114s in an F/Y configuration I guess.

We sat in F, which was the rear cabin. It was arranged 2x2 in very comfortable thick seats with lots of legroom. It was a huge aircraft with lots of wasted space. A crew rest area at the front, two Y cabins 3x3, very large galley, then something odd ... four compartments that look like they came right out of a railway carriage. They were not used on this trip. Then F at the rear.

The cabin service was superb! Better than anything I had seen and I had travelled F on some pretty fine airlines of the day. But .... the noise. It wasn't too bad in the back. I figured it was about the same as a Vanguard. (also known for vibration and noise). But when visiting the cockpit and walking forward, I honestly could not believe the noise and vibration at the front of the aircraft! There were only about 30 passengers, and those not in F sat at the rear of the second Y cabin.

However, the thing was a beast. As the fuel stop in SNN was not necessary, we flew non-stop SVO to YUL. Not cruising as fast as an IL-62, we still arrived only about half an hour late in YUL. I treasure that flight today. Even at my young age, I think I was about 8 and an aviation geek even then, I knew that would be my only chance to fly on such an aircraft and that I would more opportunities to fly on an IL-62 in the future!


Wow! That's generous.
Back in 2006 I've been inside and worked on restoration of the Tu-114 at Monino that Khrushchev used to fly to NYC. I don't recall 2x2 anywhere. It was ridiculously spatious, even in what I guess was Y, with 4x4 seating (facing each other with big tables between them), a galley on the lower deck and those cabins you reffered to. Slept in one of them when we stayed the weekend, pretty comfy.
Have a bunch of photos on some hard drive somewhere of those days.

What surprised me was the noise insulation in the cabin. I was out on the wing polishing that 30 years worth of "yellowness" off the windows and had to call over a buddy who was inside near the open L1 door. Yell as I could sticking my head inside the aircraft, it was useless. Ended up walking out past the No.2 engine to call him through the open L1 door. The sound insulation inside the cabin was really good, for reasons you mentioned.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Woofbite
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:02 pm

Re: SU / KL IL-62

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:03 pm

I took a trip in 1990 out of Montreal on an IL-62. An old bird with what looked like an added sheet of aluminum riveted on top of the wings. The interior in F class appeared to be birch wood lined with lace curtains on the windows. Huge amount of space between seats. Seats didn't convert to beds in those days but there was so much room the Russians, who had been to an Economic meeting in Montreal were headed home with tv's, stereos and who knows what and their purchases were stacked in front of them as footrests. The lavatory was gigantic and could have probably held 6 or 8 people without crowding. I remember the towel was one of those endless roll things you hoped had a chance to dry out before it came around again for you to use. Flight attendants, (I believe the were all female), were friendly but reserved. Drinks were very limited. Brandy, vodka and Scotch come to mind as about the only choices. The Russians almost all ordered Brandy which surprised me. Meal service out of Montreal was up to Air Canada standards. The return flight from Moscow was way below standard with a choice of poor quality steak, rice and half an apple or chicken, rice and half an apple. The afternoon snack consisted of the entrees not chosen at lunch time. That IL-62 was much newer but the flight experience was the same - quiet, smooth and I couldn't have told the aircraft hadn't been built by Boeing or Airbus. I seem to recall hearing or reading at the time the aircraft did not have a passenger oxygen system but counted on pilots to get down to breathable altitude asap.
On that same trip I rode a couple of IL-86's, TU-154 and an AN-24. Certainly a different experience but good rides and on time departure/arrivals.
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 551
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:34 pm

longhauler wrote:
... But .... the noise. It wasn't too bad in the back. I figured it was about the same as a Vanguard. (also known for vibration and noise). But when visiting the cockpit and walking forward, I honestly could not believe the noise and vibration at the front of the aircraft! There were only about 30 passengers, and those not in F sat at the rear of the second Y cabin.
...

Noise was a bane of Tu-114 pilots (and pilots of it military cousins -- Tu-95 and Tu-142). Many claimed medical disability due to hearing damage. It was a complex formula -- they retained their flying privileges, but their medical cards indicated hearing damage, and they were supposed to be compensated for that. Even after Tu-114 was retired, these guys would go on to pilot other types.
In the time of 4-5 people cockpits, it was no problem -- someone else worked the radio.

When two-pilot cockpits came around, and these "disabled pilots" wanted to continue flying (and needed radio qualifications), some of them raced around the doctor's offices, trying to get their "hearing disability" lifted, and their clean bill of health reinstated. Turned out, some of them were taking advantage of the system, and the damage was not that bad (but obviously, that doesn't apply to all Tu-114 cockpit crew. Some have genuinely suffered a partial loss of hearing)

Vibration eventually doomed Tu-114. There was a flying lab Tu-114, emulating flights from DME to Far East, but turning back mid-way -- so flying DME-DME -- daily. When fatigue cracks were discovered, and attributed to vibration loads -- the game was up, as the very design of the plane was prone to vibrations, and no corrective method could be found.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
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tu204
Posts: 1911
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: SU / KL IL-62

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:48 pm

Phosphorus wrote:


Vibration eventually doomed Tu-114. There was a flying lab Tu-114, emulating flights from DME to Far East, but turning back mid-way -- so flying DME-DME -- daily. When fatigue cracks were discovered, and attributed to vibration loads -- the game was up, as the very design of the plane was prone to vibrations, and no corrective method could be found.


How was this solved on the Tu-95 abd Tu-142?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Armadillo1
Posts: 387
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Re: SU / KL IL-62

Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:32 pm

i think current Tu-95s much newer planes, prodiced like 70-80x
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 551
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: SU / KL IL-62

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:38 pm

tu204 wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:


Vibration eventually doomed Tu-114. There was a flying lab Tu-114, emulating flights from DME to Far East, but turning back mid-way -- so flying DME-DME -- daily. When fatigue cracks were discovered, and attributed to vibration loads -- the game was up, as the very design of the plane was prone to vibrations, and no corrective method could be found.


How was this solved on the Tu-95 abd Tu-142?


1) lower utilization. Military does not have the same economic pressure to keep airframes in the air, as airlines
2) fresh frames were built for military, by that time Aeroflot was no longer interested in fresh Tu-114
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
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