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NateGreat
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Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:52 pm

How will Virgin Atlantic split up their fleet of Boeing 787-9, Airbus A330neo, and Airbus A350-1000, among their operating bases in the future? They have bases in London Heathrow, London Gatwick, and Manchester. So, how will they divide up the different aircraft types among each of the 3 bases? Will each aircraft type be assigned to a specific base, or will it be a mix?
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:18 pm

LHR: Boeing 787-9 , Airbus A330neo and Airbus A350-1000
LGW: Airbus A330neo and Airbus A350-1000 (for MCO)
MAN: Airbus A330neo and Airbus A350-1000 (for MCO,ATL and JFK)
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG - UA
 
NateGreat
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:58 pm

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
LHR: Boeing 787-9 , Airbus A330neo and Airbus A350-1000
LGW: Airbus A330neo and Airbus A350-1000 (for MCO)
MAN: Airbus A330neo and Airbus A350-1000 (for MCO,ATL and JFK)

Thanks! Seems like the A35K is taking over the B744 and A346, while the A33N is taking over the A333 and A332.
 
BWA900
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:15 pm

LGW: Along with MCO, the A350-1000 would be in the Caribbean during winter months and covering the current 744 routes. A339 during the low season.
MAN: BGI will see a fleet mix of both the new aircraft along with JFK,ATL,MCO.
Flown: A300 A319 A320 A321 A333 A343 A359 A388 AT72 AT76 B712 B735 B736 B737 B738 B739 B38M B744 B752 B753 B763 B772ER B772LR B77W B788 B789 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9 DH8A DH8B DH8D E145 E170 E190
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:21 pm

The assumption being the Gatwick fleet will continue to service the GLA and BFS to MCO services and thereby become A350 once the 744 disappears ? Although GLA's extended winter season this year is going A332 apparently
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:48 am

I’d assume all the B789 (are there 19?) would be based at LHR.

Of the 12x A35K, I think 6/7 would be headed at LHR with the remaining 5/6 based at MAN or LGW.

Of the 14x A339, I think around 10 would be based at MAN/LGW with the rest at LHR.

This obviously assumes that all B744, A346, A333 And A332 are retired (which I don’t think is set in stone and in any event will not come to pass for several years) and all A35K and A339 are delivered (which will take some time - there is also the possibility of top up orders and the exercise of options). It also excludes “Virgin Connect” which will likely have a major presence at MAN in particular (Connect will also have a major presence at non-VS bases at least initially).

I don’t know if this keeps the LHR base at the same level in terms of number of aircraft, but that is my intention. As far as the rest, I would expect MAN to increase its number of airframes and LGW to perhaps loose one or two.
 
SEU
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:51 pm

Does anyone know why Virgin has the 787, A350 and A330?
 
by738
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:31 pm

SEU wrote:
Does anyone know why Virgin has the 787, A350 and A330?

Although flexible, each is optimised for a particular component of their network.
There is also the different competitive purchase deals of having a mixed fleets. The A330neos were bound to have been a particularly good deal
 
caaardiff
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:59 pm

SEU wrote:
Does anyone know why Virgin has the 787, A350 and A330?


You'd think a single fleet type would be more economical, but VS has always liked to have both Airbus and Boeing in the fleet. On the face of it, it's down to matching required range with required seating capacity. The 787 is too much range for the shorter TATL routes. Having looked through each types configuration, it is a little confusing to work out what VS are up to with their fleet replacements. With 6 A340's & 8 747's remaining, but only 12 A350's on order, it can only be assumed 787's/A330's will take over some of the A340 routes. Does anyone know the likely config of the leisure A350's as there's a big difference in layouts vs the 747's.

A330-200 - UC - 19 PE - 36 E - 212 - Total 267 (4 aircraft)
A330-300 - UC - 33 PE - 48 E - 185 - Total 266 (10 aircraft)
A340-600 - UC - 45 PE - 38 E - 225 - Total 308 (6 aircraft - to leave fleet by end of 2019)
B747-400 - UC - 14 PE - 66 E - 375 - Total 455 (8 aircraft)
B787-900 - UC - 31 PE - 35 E - 192 - Total 258 (17 aircraft)

A350-1000 - UC - 44 PE - 56 E - 235 - Total 335 (12 aircraft)
A330-900 - ??? (14 on order)
 
SEU
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:35 pm

Thanks Caaardiff and by738

Their fleet just goes against all "rules of thumb" of aviation that has been created over the years- surely it costs more to have different set of training for staff, pilots and maintenance having 3 similar fleet types with a "small" fleet. Surely they dont get bulk discounts from either A or B either....

They know better than us though :)
 
georgiabill
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:39 pm

Is there room for the 787-10 in VS fleet for heavier demand Atlantic routes?
 
SueD
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:47 pm

georgiabill wrote:
Is there room for the 787-10 in VS fleet for heavier demand Atlantic routes?


Probably not with the A35J just hours from joining the fleet
 
SueD
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:03 pm

SEU wrote:
Thanks Caaardiff and by738

Their fleet just goes against all "rules of thumb" of aviation that has been created over the years- surely it costs more to have different set of training for staff, pilots and maintenance having 3 similar fleet types with a "small" fleet. Surely they dont get bulk discounts from either A or B either....

They know better than us though :)


What rules are your referring to ?

This one plane fits all approach is largely only applicable to the lower cost short haul operating models, oh and more here In the a-net universe of amateur CEO airline management .

Rather less so in legacy especially with long haul operations.

Just to name a few off the top of my head BA/IB/EI (IAG) combined fleets include BOEING 777, 77W, 744 788 789 AIRBUS 35J 388 332 333 346 AND 359 with the BOEING 78x due soon , AF/KL rather similar minus the 346, LH group 777, 77W 343 346 744 748 388 332 333 359.

Further away try Korean for a diverse Airbus and Boeing fleet , Singapore and even JAL have just taken the A359 for regional operations !

All have a mix of engines some power by the hour .
 
azz767
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:19 pm

caaardiff wrote:
SEU wrote:
Does anyone know why Virgin has the 787, A350 and A330?


You'd think a single fleet type would be more economical, but VS has always liked to have both Airbus and Boeing in the fleet. On the face of it, it's down to matching required range with required seating capacity. The 787 is too much range for the shorter TATL routes. Having looked through each types configuration, it is a little confusing to work out what VS are up to with their fleet replacements. With 6 A340's & 8 747's remaining, but only 12 A350's on order, it can only be assumed 787's/A330's will take over some of the A340 routes. Does anyone know the likely config of the leisure A350's as there's a big difference in layouts vs the 747's.

A330-200 - UC - 19 PE - 36 E - 212 - Total 267 (4 aircraft)
A330-300 - UC - 33 PE - 48 E - 185 - Total 266 (10 aircraft)
A340-600 - UC - 45 PE - 38 E - 225 - Total 308 (6 aircraft - to leave fleet by end of 2019)
B747-400 - UC - 14 PE - 66 E - 375 - Total 455 (8 aircraft)
B787-900 - UC - 31 PE - 35 E - 192 - Total 258 (17 aircraft)

A350-1000 - UC - 44 PE - 56 E - 235 - Total 335 (12 aircraft)
A330-900 - ??? (14 on order)


The A350’s were initially only 744 replacements. The 789’s were the A340 replacements and the only reason there is 6 left is due to 789 engine issues.

Secondly I’m sure VS announced there will be two different configurations for the A350, one for LGW/MAN and one for LHR so I would expect to see the non LHR ones to have a less premium heavy layout.
 
MoonC
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:34 pm

I recall reading the A330neos were supposed to replace the ceos 1 on 1. So where the ceos are, neos will likely be there.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:16 am

SueD wrote:
Rather less so in legacy especially with long haul operations.

Just to name a few off the top of my head BA/IB/EI (IAG) combined fleets include BOEING 777, 77W, 744 788 789 AIRBUS 35J 388 332 333 346 AND 359 with the BOEING 78x due soon , AF/KL rather similar minus the 346, LH group 777, 77W 343 346 744 748 388 332 333 359.

Further away try Korean for a diverse Airbus and Boeing fleet , Singapore and even JAL have just taken the A359 for regional operations !

All have a mix of engines some power by the hour .


Even a.net amateurs ought to know that widebody fleets of 200 aircraft have different economics than a fleet of just 46.

There are plenty of VS decisions over the decades that one could question. We'll see if DL's stake brings stronger analysis and discipline - not Sir Richard's strengths.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:10 am

I would also want to ask if a plane like the A321XLR would have a place in the VS network, particularly for MAN and LGW for destinations like TFS, TFN, BOS, JFK, and possibly YYZ (if WS is added to the overall TATL JV already including AF, AM, DL, KL, and VS), and maybe even TLV. Such would free up planes to fly longer routes. The idea is that connecting traffic could be funneled through MAN instead of a more crowded LHR, and an A321XLR would be easier to fill in the winter to the US East Coast without having to dump fares.

The only reason why I even say TLV is because Shai Weiss is the CEO of VS, and VS announced TLV very soon after that.

Keep in mind that the first four A35Ks will be only flying to JFK to start, which will put pressure on BA to improve its Club World product (which is being redone on some of the 4-class B772s).
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:47 am

azz767 wrote:
caaardiff wrote:
SEU wrote:
Does anyone know why Virgin has the 787, A350 and A330?


You'd think a single fleet type would be more economical, but VS has always liked to have both Airbus and Boeing in the fleet. On the face of it, it's down to matching required range with required seating capacity. The 787 is too much range for the shorter TATL routes. Having looked through each types configuration, it is a little confusing to work out what VS are up to with their fleet replacements. With 6 A340's & 8 747's remaining, but only 12 A350's on order, it can only be assumed 787's/A330's will take over some of the A340 routes. Does anyone know the likely config of the leisure A350's as there's a big difference in layouts vs the 747's.

A330-200 - UC - 19 PE - 36 E - 212 - Total 267 (4 aircraft)
A330-300 - UC - 33 PE - 48 E - 185 - Total 266 (10 aircraft)
A340-600 - UC - 45 PE - 38 E - 225 - Total 308 (6 aircraft - to leave fleet by end of 2019)
B747-400 - UC - 14 PE - 66 E - 375 - Total 455 (8 aircraft)
B787-900 - UC - 31 PE - 35 E - 192 - Total 258 (17 aircraft)

A350-1000 - UC - 44 PE - 56 E - 235 - Total 335 (12 aircraft)
A330-900 - ??? (14 on order)


The A350’s were initially only 744 replacements. The 789’s were the A340 replacements and the only reason there is 6 left is due to 789 engine issues.

Secondly I’m sure VS announced there will be two different configurations for the A350, one for LGW/MAN and one for LHR so I would expect to see the non LHR ones to have a less premium heavy layout.


There are currently scheduled to be two configurations of VS A35K, albeit the premium heavy configuration is likely to operate MAN-JFK (possibly also MAN-ATL) on a W pattern (LHR-JFK-MAN-JFK-LHR).
 
A321200
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:42 am

It'll be interesting to see how Manchester develops... if Connect were to feed VS mainline (BE have a far larger operation at MAN than LHR) then they'd need something to feed in the afternoon, all of VS's services are up and away by lunchtime!
 
caaardiff
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:22 am

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ce-in-w19/

Routes online stating which LHR-JFK flights VS will use the A350 on this winter. Checking the summer timetable, below shows which aircraft currently operates those flights;

VS3/4 - Currently A330-300
VS137/138 - Currently A330-300
VS9/10 - Currently A330-300 or A340-600
VS45/46 - Currently A330-300 or A340-600
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:45 am

When the A350 starts the MCO run will it have a reduced Upper Class cabin? The 747 has 14 seats which they don't seem to have trouble filling but the A350 has 44 which seems a bit of an overkill. Will they modify the LGW based fleet perhaps?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
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vhtje
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:05 am

SueD wrote:
SEU wrote:
Thanks Caaardiff and by738

Their fleet just goes against all "rules of thumb" of aviation that has been created over the years- surely it costs more to have different set of training for staff, pilots and maintenance having 3 similar fleet types with a "small" fleet. Surely they dont get bulk discounts from either A or B either....

They know better than us though :)


What rules are your referring to ?

This one plane fits all approach is largely only applicable to the lower cost short haul operating models, oh and more here In the a-net universe of amateur CEO airline management .

Rather less so in legacy especially with long haul operations.

Just to name a few off the top of my head BA/IB/EI (IAG) combined fleets include BOEING 777, 77W, 744 788 789 AIRBUS 35J 388 332 333 346 AND 359 with the BOEING 78x due soon , AF/KL rather similar minus the 346, LH group 777, 77W 343 346 744 748 388 332 333 359.

Further away try Korean for a diverse Airbus and Boeing fleet , Singapore and even JAL have just taken the A359 for regional operations !

All have a mix of engines some power by the hour .


But surely size of fleet is a factor? I mean we know DL has a big diverse mix of aircraft types, but its fleet is huge, so having a such mix of types isn't an issue. Same argument for SQ and JL as you mention. VS, on the other hand, is a relative minnow compared to these carriers, so surely having a diverse fleet with lots of types drives up costs for them? I keep thinking of AN during the 1990s; the big diversity of their fleet and the relatively high costs in running them was one of the big, fat, nails in their coffin.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
8herveg
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:06 am

readytotaxi wrote:
When the A350 starts the MCO run will it have a reduced Upper Class cabin? The 747 has 14 seats which they don't seem to have trouble filling but the A350 has 44 which seems a bit of an overkill. Will they modify the LGW based fleet perhaps?


If you look at previous posts and articles on their new A350's, it states that there will be a 'premium' layout (for LHR routes, and likely to be MAN-JFK and MAN-ATL), and then there'll be a 'leisure' layout for the rest of MAN and LGW routes.
 
boeing773er
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:45 am

The A330/A350 combination makes a lot of sense for VS. Considering their de facto parent DL will have a large fleet of both, they can probably pass off a lot of maintenance off to DL.

The 787s on the other hand now make less sense in hindsight. Considering VS’s network is primarily US based, they won’t need the range and the fuel economy of the NEO is similar on the shorter stage lengths. But considering AF/KL will have a rather large fleet of 787s maintenance shouldn't be a huge issue.
Work Hard, Fly Right.
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:57 am

A321200 wrote:
It'll be interesting to see how Manchester develops... if Connect were to feed VS mainline (BE have a far larger operation at MAN than LHR) then they'd need something to feed in the afternoon, all of VS's services are up and away by lunchtime!


I think that’s a very good point and given that the majority of VS’s network at MAN is TATL, there are a limited number of realistic options for evening departures ex-MAN. These include India (BOM and DEL), Hong Kong, South Africa (JNB and/or CPT) and Tokyo.

You could see an expansion late afternoon departure to LAX and BOS (perhaps in future SFO, YYZ, YVR, BKK).

This is all a long way in the future, as VS need to prove the concept works in the morning wave(s) to JFK, ATL, MCO, BOS, LAX and LAS and address the Indian connectivity issue before the likes of JNB et al can be considered realistic.
 
skipness1E
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:27 pm

Worth pointing out that even with 14 daily B777s to fill, BA won't actively feed LGW from domestics. The weekend domestic schedule is distinctly sub optimal for connections and MAN-LGW was dropped entirely, as was NCL and ABZ.
 
aerokiwi
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:54 pm

The 350s are the result of the 380 cancellation, no? So now that they're on board alongside the 330NEO, it does seem like the 787s are a little superfluous. None of their routes are really that needy of 787 distances. Perhaps over time we'll see a drawdown of 787 ops, though the likes of NZ makes single type fleets of 7-14 units ach work so it obviously can work. Does seem kinda messy though.

Are the 330 and 350 crews cross-rated? Both FAs and cockpit?
 
JamesCousins
Posts: 484
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:14 pm

aerokiwi wrote:
The 350s are the result of the 380 cancellation, no? So now that they're on board alongside the 330NEO, it does seem like the 787s are a little superfluous. None of their routes are really that needy of 787 distances. Perhaps over time we'll see a drawdown of 787 ops, though the likes of NZ makes single type fleets of 7-14 units ach work so it obviously can work. Does seem kinda messy though.

Are the 330 and 350 crews cross-rated? Both FAs and cockpit?


As I understand it the A350s were not a direct result of the A380 cancellation, instead Airbus offered to convert any money held up in the A380 in the form of deposits, if any, to another Airbus type somewhere down the line. What I mean by that is the 350s were not ordered solely to cancel the 380 order - it was the best option on the table in that the 787-10 is not big enough, the 777 was becoming dated and a little too large, and the 777X was too far off. Pilots on the type will be cross-rated to fly the A330s, A350s and A330neos when they arrive.

In terms of the 787 being somewhat of an oddball/hindrance, I've seen this point raised many times but don't really agree. With all of the frames based at Heathrow it is actually the largest-based subfleet - if it was being split, like the A330 and A350 accross 3+ bases then I'd agree, but it's a very efficient frame which is generally liked by pax. I can't see VS trying to offload these to concentrate around Airbus types. Additionally, with the A330neos replacing the A330ceos on a virtually 1:1 basis it will remain the largest subfleet at VS based on the current order book.
Q400, A320-200, A321-200, 737-500, 737-800, 747-400, 757-200, 787-9 // FCA, TOM, TUI, MON, MT, BA, VS, DL, BE, X9, OLY // Upcoming: W6 A320, W6 A321, EVA 77W, VS 787-9m AS A320, VS A35K, KLM E190, KLM 738, LS 737
 
JamesCousins
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:15 pm

aerokiwi wrote:
Are the 330 and 350 crews cross-rated? Both FAs and cockpit?


Apologies on the double post, but in terms of the FAs I believe these are trained on all fleet types regardless - happy to be corrected here but just what I picked up from speaking to a couple of FAs on recent flights.
Q400, A320-200, A321-200, 737-500, 737-800, 747-400, 757-200, 787-9 // FCA, TOM, TUI, MON, MT, BA, VS, DL, BE, X9, OLY // Upcoming: W6 A320, W6 A321, EVA 77W, VS 787-9m AS A320, VS A35K, KLM E190, KLM 738, LS 737
 
Luftymatt
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:32 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I would also want to ask if a plane like the A321XLR would have a place in the VS network, particularly for MAN and LGW for destinations like TFS, TFN, BOS, JFK, and possibly YYZ (if WS is added to the overall TATL JV already including AF, AM, DL, KL, and VS), and maybe even TLV. Such would free up planes to fly longer routes.

Tenerife doesn't require an A321XLR from the UK, the A321 ceo can easily fly TFS nd TFN direct from any UK airport. That said if VS were interested in flying to TFS they would have done so by now, there is already numerous options for someone wanting to fly there in the already overcrowded market without VS joining in.

Virgin haven't expressed interest in narrowbodies so far, so I can't see them wanting the A321XLR, however who knows?
chase the sun
 
CRJ900
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:41 pm

I read here on A.net some months ago that the leisure-configured A350-1000 will have 410 seats. Don't know if that is still the case.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1451
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Future Fleet Matrix for LHR, LGW, and MAN

Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:09 am

caaardiff wrote:
A330-200 - UC - 19 PE - 36 E - 212 - Total 267 (4 aircraft)
A330-300 - UC - 33 PE - 48 E - 185 - Total 266 (10 aircraft)
A340-600 - UC - 45 PE - 38 E - 225 - Total 308 (6 aircraft - to leave fleet by end of 2019)
B747-400 - UC - 14 PE - 66 E - 375 - Total 455 (8 aircraft)
B787-900 - UC - 31 PE - 35 E - 192 - Total 258 (17 aircraft)

A350-1000 - UC - 44 PE - 56 E - 235 - Total 335 (12 aircraft)
A330-900 - ??? (14 on order)


Unless they're configured for different routes (which I can't see given the firm orders are like-for-like replacement for the ceo's), I assume the A330-900's will have a very similar seating capacity as the existing A330-300's, albeit with the new Premium and UC seats that are debuting on the A350's. An interesting point will be what happens to the bar and if they fit the Loft Bar being fitted to the A350's.

CRJ900 wrote:
I read here on A.net some months ago that the leisure-configured A350-1000 will have 410 seats. Don't know if that is still the case.


The best available information would suggest that's the case. They were mainly intended as 747 replacements and the config of the first few A350's is too premium-heavy for some of the routes the remaining 747's work. I guess we'll know in due course when more aircraft are delivered.

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