TObound
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Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:54 pm

Some Canadian posters may be aware that the government (Transport Canada) has tasked KPMG to consider the development of a second major airport on the Pickering Airport Lands, as a reliever to Pearson. The report is due this year. Will probably be released after the federal election.

Population trends to me would favour Hamilton (YHM) or possibly even some small expansion at Waterloo (YKF) instead of a major Pickering airport.

Thoughts?

Does Toronto need a second major airport?

Who would anchor this airport? And could they generate enough traffic to pay down the large debt required from development?
 
tphuang
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:13 pm

Waterloo or Hamilton could really never work as reliever airport to Toronto. They are just too far out. and there is absolutely no public transportation from Toronto to these airports.
 
golfradio
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:29 pm

I would agree that YHM would seem a better alternative than a new greenfield airport at Pickering. With regard to public transportation, Pickering would need investments in public transportation too. Go is too far south, 404 too far west and Hwy 7 and 407 not viable options.
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vin2basketball
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:30 pm

tphuang wrote:
Waterloo or Hamilton could really never work as reliever airport to Toronto. They are just too far out. and there is absolutely no public transportation from Toronto to these airports.


I've never understood this thinking with secondary/reliever airports re public transit. Isn't one of the core jobs of those types of airports to pull more price-sensitive travelers from the outskirts or a portion of the metro area, which is thus also likely to be correlated with car ownership (and it's not like Canadian suburbs are particularly car unfriendly)?
 
rigo
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:12 pm

tphuang wrote:
Waterloo or Hamilton could really never work as reliever airport to Toronto. They are just too far out. and there is absolutely no public transportation from Toronto to these airports.


Tell that to the planners of Sydney's new Nancy Bird Walton airport :banghead:
 
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enilria
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:20 pm

Buffalo? /s
 
AIRTRANSAT767
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:45 pm

Hello
gang i saw the expansion of the toronto yyz airport is fine that will end in 2037 if i remember well. me it would be more beneficial to build a new airport and close YYZ? to make a single airport Hamilton / toronto. A can as Istanbul or as pekin. thank you gang

ps that's my opinion to me
i love air transat and fan all boeing
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:26 am

tphuang wrote:
They are just too far out. and there is absolutely no public transportation from Toronto to these airports.


So in other words, they could work if the distance was "shortened" by providing good connections between the airport and the city. Let's say there would be a bus line that connected Hamilton Airport to the city of Toronto non-stop. Such a bus line would be easy to set up and it would eliminate the current problem of the airport being too far out.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:35 am

Another possible location could be Brampton airfield. There is already a highway (410) leading practically to the airfield and there is a railroad passing along the airfield where a station could be built. If you extend runway 15/33 (plenty of room for that) and you put up a terminal, you're basically done.

Brampton airfield has the advantage of being on unoccupied land close to the city, easy to expand (nothing needs to be torn down) and it's only a short distance away on both car and public transport.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:47 am

rigo wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Waterloo or Hamilton could really never work as reliever airport to Toronto. They are just too far out. and there is absolutely no public transportation from Toronto to these airports.


Tell that to the planners of Sydney's new Nancy Bird Walton airport :banghead:


They're planning to build a railway line to that new airport, which is essential.

I agree airports without public transport are worthless, so the answer is to provide public transport. And that's exactly what they're doing in Sydney.
 
ShanghaiNoon
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:08 am

Couldn't we just improve services along the Via Rail corridor and thus negate the need for a new airport?
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:25 am

ShanghaiNoon wrote:
Couldn't we just improve services along the Via Rail corridor and thus negate the need for a new airport?


That would only have a very limited effect since by far most destinations aren't on the VIA rail. Of course, every passenger that takes the train instead of a flight will help relieve the airport but how much is that? Maybe one percent at most? Even if you reach that, there is still need for a new airport.
 
morrisond
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:38 am

The Go Train already runs frequently to Hamilton itself from Toronto and there is an Old Rail Line Right of way (now a bike path) that goes up the mountain (from the Hamilton Go station) right past the airport. It wouldn't be that hard. You could easily run a train between Pearson and Hamilton on existing track/right of ways for connecting flights - which I would assume would make Hamilton a lot more useful - if it's connected.

Ironically that is where I'm headed this morning - on a bike ride to Hamilton from Oakville up the mountain and down that Old Rail line.
Last edited by morrisond on Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
BWA900
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:41 am

If need be I'm sure the government would be sure there is more public transport to YHM. There is already Megabus which goes right to the airport as well as GoTransit which foes to downtown Hamilton. YHM's airfield is already very condensed with their regular operations and would need to be expanded. Their runway is in the process of being redone as we speak.
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Vio
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:13 pm

I've been working at Pearson for a number of years now. "Flow control" back to YYZ is a common thing. We deal with it almost every day. I personally don't think Toronto needs another major airport (yet...)

I believe there are three things that would greatly improve the Toronto Pearson:

1. Add a 3rd North / South runway, essentially making 33R into 33C and build a new "33R" to the West. As of now, runway 23 and 24R have a distance of about 3.25 km (10,600 feet) between them. If they build the new "33R" just West of Dixie Road that would be a major improvement in the flow of traffic. I'm sure some of the businesses could keep their location, just as the ones at the "inner field" do, but that would mean buying up a lot of land. I bet it would still be cheaper than building a new airport.

2. Add a new terminal in the infield, between the current 33R & 33L, maybe remove taxiway N in between these two runways. Change the access to T1 and T3 so they don't bottle Neck., maybe have a one way in / one way out system. This would remove the bottle necking at AL, AK (especially), AJ and AT. Also add an underground Terminal Link Train to this new terminal, let's call it "TWO".

3. Add better connectivity with local public transportation, including full train service (VIA RAIL & GO TRANSIT) to communities in the GTA and beyond. Imagine being able to hop on a train in Niagara Falls or Trenton that brings you directly to Pearson. I would expand this to London, Barrie, etc. (maybe even Kingston and Windsor). The UP Express is a good start, but nowhere near where airports like Frankfurt, Amsterdam etc are. I'm essentially wishing for a good rail network in Southern Ontario.

Image
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MIflyer12
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:41 pm

vin2basketball wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Waterloo or Hamilton could really never work as reliever airport to Toronto. They are just too far out. and there is absolutely no public transportation from Toronto to these airports.


I've never understood this thinking with secondary/reliever airports re public transit. Isn't one of the core jobs of those types of airports to pull more price-sensitive travelers from the outskirts or a portion of the metro area, which is thus also likely to be correlated with car ownership (and it's not like Canadian suburbs are particularly car unfriendly)?


I don't know why pulling price-sensitive travelers away from the core airport would be a core goal, or even desirable. Minimizing ground travel times would seem to be a better primary goal, ie put it where the people are, or where they can get to readily, or plan to build lanes and public transit. That fits closest to the primary mode of the SoCal airports Long Beach, SNA and Burbank.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:47 pm

Every now and then Toronto/Pickering Airport is mentioned publicly. I don't know if any serious development is happening, but it has been going on a long time.

When first proposed and land expropriated ... I was in Grade School!
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dr1980
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:51 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
They are just too far out. and there is absolutely no public transportation from Toronto to these airports.


So in other words, they could work if the distance was "shortened" by providing good connections between the airport and the city. Let's say there would be a bus line that connected Hamilton Airport to the city of Toronto non-stop. Such a bus line would be easy to set up and it would eliminate the current problem of the airport being too far out.


Any second airport would need to be connected by rail in order to have reliable transit times. Traffic in the Toronto area is highly congested and a bus ride between YHM and YYZ would be long and unpredictable, just ask GO Transit.
Dave/CYHZ
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:04 pm

This would be my proposal for the future Toronto airport:

Image

Anyone got anything against it?
 
MoreMiles
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:15 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
This would be my proposal for the future Toronto airport:

Image

Anyone got anything against it?


Too close to YYZ. Very likely flight paths are too close
Weather diversions will be useless.
 
AIRTRANSAT767
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:31 pm

GTAA (Toronto airport) should be like Shanghai or seoul ICN because they are far enough with super train. Do not forget to take the Maglev as an example but a train anyway fast. I think it's going to cost them to demonlire road parking? It is better to remake another airport with a lot of ground. thank you
i love air transat and fan all boeing
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:32 pm

MoreMiles wrote:
Too close to YYZ. Very likely flight paths are too close
Weather diversions will be useless.


Same distance as between New York JFK and LaGuardia, and they can be operated simultaneously as well. It just takes a bit of coordination. Most of the time there won't be any problem as the flight routes from the parallel runways at Pearson pass northeast of Brampton. In other words, the flight route from Brampton would pass southwest of Pearson. The difference in height makes sure it also doesn't interfere with the flight routes for runway 05/23 and the 06/24 runways at Pearson. Planes to/from Brampton would pass high over those approach/departure routes.

Weather diversions are always useless within the same city, that was never the intention of building a second airport. If they build it at the proposed location in Pickering, weather diversions would be equally useless.
 
Gr8Circle
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:48 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Weather diversions are always useless within the same city, that was never the intention of building a second airport. If they build it at the proposed location in Pickering, weather diversions would be equally useless.


Weather conditions at YYZ and Brampton would be pretty similar, but Pickering is way out to the east......often times there are nasty thunder storms over the YYZ area and out in Pickering it's clear weather, and vice versa......weather conditions can be very different....
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:52 pm

What about Bishop airport? The place carries 2.8 million passengers per year, and has an airline headquarters and hub (with 21 destinations from porter alone). I would call that major...
Can someone please start a wikipedia list of failed startup airlines? I am interested in seeing just how long it would be...
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:22 pm

How about to landfill bishop for a mega size airport like Boris island to replace Pearson?
 
alo2yyz
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:12 pm

Someone help me understand how a Pickering airport isn't 1) a solution in search of a problem and 2) a new Mirabel.

Is it that travel time from east of Scarborough is lengthy and unpredictable? If yes, then how does a whole new airport make sense relative to the cost of improving transit (i.e., creative BRT that uses the 407, is all-day bi-directional, and frequent + Metrolinx's RER plans for the GO trains to take people from the lakeshore in (e.g.) Ajax through Union out to YYZ)?

Is it capacity? What can be shifted over YHM with improved, reliable transport links to get people there (and is Pickering really all that much more convenient than YHM - they're both in the boonies relative to downtown)? Can additional runways and terminals be added at YYZ?

I just don't understand what the problem is at YYZ that would require a whole new airport when some of the simplistic solutions appear not to have been tried yet.
 
PHLCVGAMTK
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:43 pm

alo2yyz wrote:
Someone help me understand how a Pickering airport isn't 1) a solution in search of a problem and 2) a new Mirabel.

Is it that travel time from east of Scarborough is lengthy and unpredictable? If yes, then how does a whole new airport make sense relative to the cost of improving transit (i.e., creative BRT that uses the 407, is all-day bi-directional, and frequent + Metrolinx's RER plans for the GO trains to take people from the lakeshore in (e.g.) Ajax through Union out to YYZ)?

Is it capacity? What can be shifted over YHM with improved, reliable transport links to get people there (and is Pickering really all that much more convenient than YHM - they're both in the boonies relative to downtown)? Can additional runways and terminals be added at YYZ?

I just don't understand what the problem is at YYZ that would require a whole new airport when some of the simplistic solutions appear not to have been tried yet.


I endorse all of these points, especially the improvability of transit access to all of YYZ, YTZ, and YHM, from all points of the compass around the GTA. And look well on the example of Mirabel, as to what happens when a second airport opens far away from downtown with no fast transit access.

I will add one more point to the above: if YYZ has an aircraft movement capacity problem, then wouldn't it make sense for YYZ's main tenants to upgauge, and/or to start reflowing more connection traffic over other hubs like YUL, YOW, and YYC? YYZ is a popular airport serving a popular destination, so it will always expand to fill its capacity. If Toronto somehow needs more capacity to satisfy local O&D, then look at other airports starting with the existing ones, but it's not actually clear that YYZ's capacity to handle passengers is a problem worthy of intervention.
 
TObound
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:59 pm

alo2yyz wrote:
Someone help me understand how a Pickering airport isn't 1) a solution in search of a problem and 2) a new Mirabel.

Is it that travel time from east of Scarborough is lengthy and unpredictable? If yes, then how does a whole new airport make sense relative to the cost of improving transit (i.e., creative BRT that uses the 407, is all-day bi-directional, and frequent + Metrolinx's RER plans for the GO trains to take people from the lakeshore in (e.g.) Ajax through Union out to YYZ)?

Is it capacity? What can be shifted over YHM with improved, reliable transport links to get people there (and is Pickering really all that much more convenient than YHM - they're both in the boonies relative to downtown)? Can additional runways and terminals be added at YYZ?

I just don't understand what the problem is at YYZ that would require a whole new airport when some of the simplistic solutions appear not to have been tried yet.


Few elements here:

1) Pearson is already getting up there. It’s a Level 3 slot controlled airport. Thanks to the success of AC’s TATL hub initiative, the terminals are packed and on-time performance has tanked. If AC has to grow more, and OTP has to improve, YYZ needs to shed some of the load. Be it to Hamilton or Pickering or elsewhere. A sixth runway at Pearson might only provide a temporary reprieve since there’s no room to ensure sufficient separation for independent ops.

2) The argument for a Pickering airport is largely based around congestion making access times worse. At about say the DVP, getting to both Pearson and Pickering would take just as long. Once you consider Scarborough, half of York Region, all of Durham and beyond, there’s probably nearly 2 million people within a half hour drive of a hypothetical Pickering airport.

3) Pickering Local and Durham Regional Councils are pushing the Pickering airport because they see what Mississauga was able to do with Pearson. YYZ is the reason that Mississauga is full of corporate offices. And Durham wants the same. Especially with the demise of GM in Oshawa, they see the airport as a major economic catalyst.

4) It’s a unique situation where the feds own thousands of acres that has long been reserved for an airport. Unlike other locations, there’s no expropriation or long land acquisition process. Under the Conservatives, the feds had even started depopulating the area by refusing to renew the 10-year leases for families living on the land. This was in anticipation of a future airport.

Personally, I’m biased to the idea of investing in YHM. The several billion that would have be spent on Pickering would pay for the transit access, a new terminal, a new parking structure and the fuel pipeline construction needed. And all that would probably deliver a high capacity airport than the same investment in Pickering. And closer to where the bulks of future regional population growth is.

I think Pickering should be limited to decent GA facility that allows for the consolidation of Buttonville, Oshawa and maybe YTZ and Markham.

The KPMG report will be interesting regardless of which direction it leans. Local politicians have been pulling hard for the airport. And it’s not at all clear that the public in Durham is fully onboard.
 
TObound
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:12 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
MoreMiles wrote:
Too close to YYZ. Very likely flight paths are too close
Weather diversions will be useless.


Same distance as between New York JFK and LaGuardia, and they can be operated simultaneously as well. It just takes a bit of coordination. Most of the time there won't be any problem as the flight routes from the parallel runways at Pearson pass northeast of Brampton. In other words, the flight route from Brampton would pass southwest of Pearson. The difference in height makes sure it also doesn't interfere with the flight routes for runway 05/23 and the 06/24 runways at Pearson. Planes to/from Brampton would pass high over those approach/departure routes.

Weather diversions are always useless within the same city, that was never the intention of building a second airport. If they build it at the proposed location in Pickering, weather diversions would be equally useless.


If you are building a new airport though, why would you purposely make your situation more complicated. The geography of New York and the history behind LGA and JFK are the reason they are where they are. I doubt if airports from New York were being built from scratch, they’d purposely choose to congest the airspace.
 
alo2yyz
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:51 pm

TObound wrote:
alo2yyz wrote:
Someone help me understand how a Pickering airport isn't 1) a solution in search of a problem and 2) a new Mirabel.

Is it that travel time from east of Scarborough is lengthy and unpredictable? If yes, then how does a whole new airport make sense relative to the cost of improving transit (i.e., creative BRT that uses the 407, is all-day bi-directional, and frequent + Metrolinx's RER plans for the GO trains to take people from the lakeshore in (e.g.) Ajax through Union out to YYZ)?

Is it capacity? What can be shifted over YHM with improved, reliable transport links to get people there (and is Pickering really all that much more convenient than YHM - they're both in the boonies relative to downtown)? Can additional runways and terminals be added at YYZ?

I just don't understand what the problem is at YYZ that would require a whole new airport when some of the simplistic solutions appear not to have been tried yet.


Few elements here:

1) Pearson is already getting up there. It’s a Level 3 slot controlled airport. Thanks to the success of AC’s TATL hub initiative, the terminals are packed and on-time performance has tanked. If AC has to grow more, and OTP has to improve, YYZ needs to shed some of the load. Be it to Hamilton or Pickering or elsewhere. A sixth runway at Pearson might only provide a temporary reprieve since there’s no room to ensure sufficient separation for independent ops.

2) The argument for a Pickering airport is largely based around congestion making access times worse. At about say the DVP, getting to both Pearson and Pickering would take just as long. Once you consider Scarborough, half of York Region, all of Durham and beyond, there’s probably nearly 2 million people within a half hour drive of a hypothetical Pickering airport.

3) Pickering Local and Durham Regional Councils are pushing the Pickering airport because they see what Mississauga was able to do with Pearson. YYZ is the reason that Mississauga is full of corporate offices. And Durham wants the same. Especially with the demise of GM in Oshawa, they see the airport as a major economic catalyst.

4) It’s a unique situation where the feds own thousands of acres that has long been reserved for an airport. Unlike other locations, there’s no expropriation or long land acquisition process. Under the Conservatives, the feds had even started depopulating the area by refusing to renew the 10-year leases for families living on the land. This was in anticipation of a future airport.

Personally, I’m biased to the idea of investing in YHM. The several billion that would have be spent on Pickering would pay for the transit access, a new terminal, a new parking structure and the fuel pipeline construction needed. And all that would probably deliver a high capacity airport than the same investment in Pickering. And closer to where the bulks of future regional population growth is.

I think Pickering should be limited to decent GA facility that allows for the consolidation of Buttonville, Oshawa and maybe YTZ and Markham.

The KPMG report will be interesting regardless of which direction it leans. Local politicians have been pulling hard for the airport. And it’s not at all clear that the public in Durham is fully onboard.



Many thanks - this is very informative :smile:
 
Canuck600
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:55 am

How much time would it buy if cargo operations & operations geared more to private jet operations were given a incentive to leave YYZ?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:09 am

vin2basketball wrote:
I've never understood this thinking with secondary/reliever airports re public transit.

Then simply study the histories of Montreal/Mirabel, Milan/Malpensa, and Washington/Dulles airports.... then you'll understand.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:00 am

vin2basketball wrote:
I've never understood this thinking with secondary/reliever airports re public transit. Isn't one of the core jobs of those types of airports to pull more price-sensitive travelers from the outskirts or a portion of the metro area, which is thus also likely to be correlated with car ownership (and it's not like Canadian suburbs are particularly car unfriendly)?


That's only true for half of the passengers, namely the locals flying out to other places. The other half are passengers from other places flying into that secondary airport. They're only visiting and thus don't have a car there, they rely on public transport. Also, they're not visiting the suburbs. They're visiting the city. Therefor good public transport between the airport and the city is essential. Not for the locals, but for the visitors.

For an example, Norwegian has a flight between Dublin and Hamilton which is essentially a secondary airport for Toronto. Only half of the passengers on that flight are people from Toronto visiting Dublin. The other half are people from Dublin visiting Toronto. Now imagine yourself in that position, you're from Dublin and parked your car at Dublin Airport (or perhaps you took the bus there, that's irrelevant). Then once you arrive in Hamilton, how do you get to Toronto? You don't have a car there. Is there a train? A bus? The existence of such a service could make the difference, do you fly to Hamilton or not?

In just about every secondary European airport, such services exist. It is a very lucrative market, hauling passengers that fly into secondary airports to the cities. Companies like PlusAirportLine, Terravision and Flibco exist to connect secondary airports to the cities for only a few bucks. It could very well work in Canada, hauling passengers from Hamilton Airport to Toronto or from Abbotsford to Vancouver for example. It already works in New York where Stewart Airport was connected by bus to New York City. That service was set up after the European model, mainly aiming at European passengers who are used to such services.
 
AIRTRANSAT767
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:14 pm

To do well GTAA will have to copy a bit like Seoul or Hong Kong to better map out other North America. I think it's better to start over.


https://www.google.com/search?q=toronto ... RK1gcvrpvM:

https://www.google.com/search?q=toronto ... RK1gcvrpvM:


https://www.google.com/search?q=seoul+a ... _Qi24znufM:
i love air transat and fan all boeing
 
TObound
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:47 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Is there a train? A bus? The existence of such a service could make the difference, do you fly to Hamilton or not?


YHM has Megabus service that is coordinated with Norwegian's flight from Dublin:

https://ca.megabus.com/press-releases/m ... al-airport

It's on the airport webpage:

https://flyhamilton.ca/passenger-inform ... portation/
 
blr380
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:10 pm

Isn't YTZ already a second major airport? It carries close to 3m annually, pretty significant for most Canadian airports. Personally, I transit through YYZ multiple times and never have had a single issue. The cost to build anything in Canada is so high - don't think another major airport will ever happen around YYZ area.
 
TObound
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:25 am

blr380 wrote:
Isn't YTZ already a second major airport? It carries close to 3m annually, pretty significant for most Canadian airports. Personally, I transit through YYZ multiple times and never have had a single issue. The cost to build anything in Canada is so high - don't think another major airport will ever happen around YYZ area.


YTZ is a small (albeit busy) regional airport that’s limited by type of ops (limited to turboprops), severely limited by runway length (< 4000 ft and water on both ends), limited by terminal space, limited by noise abatement procedures and restrictions (hours of ops in particular). It’s a good airport for what it’s meant to be and Porter has done fantastically with it. But it’s not going to be a second major airport.

To put YTZ’s 3 million annual pax in context, YYZ has been adding 2.5 million pax per year for the last 4 years. I’m not suggesting growth will stay that high in perpetuity. But Pearson is growing rapidly as AC grows it’s hub and new airlines seek out Toronto. So capacity is needed.
 
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qf2220
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Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:11 am

rigo wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Waterloo or Hamilton could really never work as reliever airport to Toronto. They are just too far out. and there is absolutely no public transportation from Toronto to these airports.


Tell that to the planners of Sydney's new Nancy Bird Walton airport :banghead:


SWZ is not a 'releiver' airport but one that is going to have its own market in its own right. Think LHR and LGW or JFK and EWR. This one sounds more like a LGA/JFK comparison.
 
YYZLGA
Posts: 357
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:28 am

Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:42 am

dr1980 wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
They are just too far out. and there is absolutely no public transportation from Toronto to these airports.


So in other words, they could work if the distance was "shortened" by providing good connections between the airport and the city. Let's say there would be a bus line that connected Hamilton Airport to the city of Toronto non-stop. Such a bus line would be easy to set up and it would eliminate the current problem of the airport being too far out.


Any second airport would need to be connected by rail in order to have reliable transit times. Traffic in the Toronto area is highly congested and a bus ride between YHM and YYZ would be long and unpredictable, just ask GO Transit.


A cheap and simple option would be a bus from YHM to the Aldershot GO station. From there, people could take the GO train that comes every half-hour to downtown Toronto, or to Burlington, Oakville, Mississauga along the way.
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1037
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:42 am

Toronto doesn't really need a second airport. Year over year, movements are stagnant or dropping, average pax/movement is leading the growth. If more short haul capacity is needed, CYTZ is where it's at, YHM can handle low cost traffic as required to fill in the gaps. The current system is more than adequate, anything else would be an airspace nightmare and way overtax the capacity of the current airspace system.
 
YYZLGA
Posts: 357
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:28 am

Re: Toronto’s Second Major Airport

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:55 am

TObound wrote:
1) Pearson is already getting up there. It’s a Level 3 slot controlled airport. Thanks to the success of AC’s TATL hub initiative, the terminals are packed and on-time performance has tanked. If AC has to grow more, and OTP has to improve, YYZ needs to shed some of the load. Be it to Hamilton or Pickering or elsewhere. A sixth runway at Pearson might only provide a temporary reprieve since there’s no room to ensure sufficient separation for independent ops.


The interesting point is that there IS sufficient space for triple parallel independent ops. The northern and southern runways are separated by more than 2700 metres. The catch is that a runway down the middle would require demolitions--probably of Terminal 3 and definitely of some of the warehouses east of Dixie. The latter isn't all that big a deal--other cities like Atlanta and St. Louis have torn down far more for runway additions--while T3 will reach the end of its life at some point. A replacement could potentially be built north of the new runway on the old industrial lands along Airport Road.

In terms of relieving the airport, the problem is always that it's not the number of passengers that's the problem--it's the number of takeoffs and landings. It's the runways that are the constraint, not the terminals (which can be easily expanded more or less indefinitely). Getting airlines to shift flights to a reliever airport is very difficult. AC, and to some extent WS, isn't going to want that because it will make that flight inaccessible for connections from their huge hub operations at YYZ. AC also isn't likely to want to cut back on frequency on popular routes like LGA, YVR, YUL, etc. even if flights from elsewhere (i.e. YTZ) divert a few passengers, because their frequent schedule is a big part of their competitive advantage. If necessary, they'll just downgauge (as they did to LGA when they shifted from mostly 320s to mostly E90s after WS added their flights, while maintaining the same frequency). That does nothing to free up runway capacity.

I can only see a few realistic ways that YYZ's could get meaningful numbers of flights diverted. Firstly, Pearson could shift as much GA traffic as possible to other airports. Unfortunately, they're doing exactly the opposite by eliminating the tiny subsidy that kept Buttonville open. It's so ridiculous when you think about it--GTAA doesn't want to spend a few million a year to keep a perfectly good GA airport open, but it's willing to consider spending literally billions to build a mostly GA airport, much like Buttonville, on vacant land in Pickering. Secondly, some flights could be eliminated if there were a decent enough rail service, connected directly to YYZ, that AC and WS are willing to replace their flights to places like London and Kingston (or even YOW and YUL) by code-sharing on the train. London alone is a dozen flights a day. Imagine how much more traffic could be handled if all of those slots were instead allocated to widebodies flying overseas. Thirdly, if ULCCs at secondary airports get big enough that they massively draw traffic away from AC and WS and YYZ. It would have to be sufficient to force AC to actually cut frequencies, and not just downgauge. I'm sceptical that's possible. If anything, ULCC competition would push AC to focus even more on competitive advantages like a frequent schedule. The only other option is to abandon the idea of YYZ as a serious and growing global hub. Even BA struggles to maintain a competitive hub split across two airports in the world's number one aviation market. There's no way that AC could pull it off in Toronto.

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