GVP
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:53 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:14 pm

NWAESC wrote:
GVP wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
Who is he to decide, anyway? Let the members vote, and let the chips fall where they may!

The International President, that’s who is and it’s up to him, GVP Sito Pantoja’s decision.


You've just confirmed that under the Association, the membership has no say in the direction of their careers. Good job.

You sure you don't want to walk that back, even a little?

Every union does it the same way the International leadership decides after a TA is reached to bring it out or not. And the members elect that leadership and most of the negotiators hold an elected position.

So you are incorrect.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:23 pm

When was the vote for the Association?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1130
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:55 pm

An AA vs Unions thread and no comments from Boof02671.
However, we have a new member GVP, with an account that's about 1 week old and with the same antics as Boof02671.
Could these 2 accounts be one and the same guy? :scratchchin:
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:58 pm

GVP wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
GVP wrote:
Samuelson stated in DFW at a rally for UNITE , he will not agree nor sign a concessionary contract.



A contract that pays everyone more is not Concessionary! A contract that cost the company a lot more is not Concessionary.

Why must unions lie?

There is more to a contract than pay. AA wants to outsource more cutting headcount by attrition.

And he wants to increase healthcare costs and freeze the IAM Pension.



Yes but when you add it all up it is still not concessionary. You guys need another word if you want to be honest.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:31 pm

Concessionary or not, AA Fleet and AMTs are being held back from voting on an offer by a leader from an Association they didn’t vote for. Further, the AMTS now have a perm TRO around their necks in no small part due to the actions of the Association’s “leader.”
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
apodino
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:54 am

ikramerica wrote:
apodino wrote:
kabq737 wrote:
To me all of this just seems immensely short sighted. The aviation industry is likely on its way to having a shortage of experienced professionals. Many projections think that this won't just be a pilot shortage. It makes one wonder if AA is playing their cards right. If AA creates a reputation of being unfriendly to their workers it could be interesting to see how much success they have in recruiting in the future.

As one of the worlds largest airlines I am sure that AA will still be able to get people but if they become the "last choice" of the large US carriers they could find themselves attracting lower quality candidates in the future.

Then again, in my opinion AA cares a lot more about todays profits than tomorrows issues so none of this comes as a surprise to me.

To the last point, they haven't even made investors happy. Millions in stock buybacks and dividend payments, and the stock is near its 52 week low. Right now at AA the employees aren't happy, the Customers aren't happy, and Wall Street isn't happy. How does a CEO survive very long with all of these issues?

As for the first paragraph, I can speak to one position in particular (Dispatcher), and it seems they are getting 1000 aps per opening for this position, and hiring 30 candidates at a time. The demand is there still. Same with the pilots, and they even use this thing called an organizational fit assessment. If you fail it, you are done.

That being said, all my friends at Delta, United, and Southwest all seem happy to be there. Not so much at AA.

Sorry, but I've been reading about how horrible AA is for decades. The employees have forced out CEOs and then get mad at the new one. Back in the early 2000s it was so bad they were considering BK then so my Mom and I cashed in some miles to fly F to Japan.

They always say everything is unfair and management is evil, year after year after year. Yet through multiple AA management changes, a merger where US took over, new management since then, doesn't matter. AA is evil, employees are exploited.

Either it can't be fixed or it's posturing. Either way what exactly can be done?


If the Joint contract was the only issue Doug Parker was dealing with that would be one thing. Parkers problem goes far beyond labor disputes. A lot of things have happened at AA under Parker not related to labor that has many people doubting if he is the guy to lead the company. Let me list a few of them.

1. The company has a higher debt load than its competitors. Everyone gets that some debt is necessary to finance aircraft purchases and to make improvements such as with new Admirals clubs and ground equipment replacement. The issue is the company has had plenty of chances to pay down some of this debt and has not done so. Instead of paying down debt, the company has chosen instead to use excess cash on hand to buy back stock and pay dividends. The idea here is to return money to the shareholders by reducing the amount of outstanding shares thus raising the price. However, instead of the stock price going up as a result, the stock currently sits near its 52 week low. Shareholders have actually lost money, and the money that could have paid down debt has basically vanished into thin air.

2. The decision to bank DFW instead of keep it as a rolling hub. This is well documented in other threads, but all I will say is Delta runs ATL as a rolling hub, and AA chooses to bank DFW. If you look at the operational stats for DFW, I bet you will see a decrease in good stats in the time since they decided to bank the hub.

3. The Oasis project. This is a project that could have been really good for the company but certain things associated with this have not been good. For example, removing the seatback monitors while your competitors add them. Also going to 172 seats in a 737. Another issue with this project is the vendors have been doing such shoddy maintenance that AA mechanics have had to spend a couple of weeks cleaning up the bad work done by the outsourced vendors.

4. Going to 8 first class seats on the 319. This actually originally predates Parker as LAA had this config prior to the merger, but instead of going to the more premium heavy LUS config, Parker went the other way. Why a 319 at mainline has fewer first class seats than a 175 at Eagle makes no sense to me?

5. The increase in the number of middle managers since taking over. United had a huge problem for years of a bloated middle management structure. Parker is doing the same thing at AA right now.

6. Reducing the charter operation to practically nothing. AA runs such a tight schedule now that there is practically no room for a Charter operation and only a handful of charters still operate. This has practically handed this area over to the competitors. The only charters left are a couple of NFL teams, and the WWII honor flights.

7. Letting Scott Kirby get away. There is no doubt that Kirby is a big reason why United has been able to turn things around. And Parker let him walk for nothing, and without a no compete clause.


These are just a few things I can mention. None of them are labor related at all.
 
apodino
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:58 am

Now it seems like AA wants even more. This strikes me as an attempt to financially cripple the association.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2019/08/13/american-airlines-demands-mechanics-unions-pay-enormous-financial-losses-flight-delays-cancellations?utm_source=pushly

I don't even know where to begin with this one.
 
OKCDCA
Posts: 223
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:50 am

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:16 am

apodino wrote:
Now it seems like AA wants even more. This strikes me as an attempt to financially cripple the association.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2019/08/13/american-airlines-demands-mechanics-unions-pay-enormous-financial-losses-flight-delays-cancellations?utm_source=pushly

I don't even know where to begin with this one.

More likely a bargaining chip in negotiations. The union will likely not have to pay a dime to AA when its all said and done but definitely gives AA an upper hand in negotiations. However, after watching the way the union leaders have acted and handled this process, it would be sweet justice to see them held financially accountable and cripple the union.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1569
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:34 am

apodino wrote:
Now it seems like AA wants even more. This strikes me as an attempt to financially cripple the association.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2019/08/13/american-airlines-demands-mechanics-unions-pay-enormous-financial-losses-flight-delays-cancellations?utm_source=pushly

I don't even know where to begin with this one.


Good.

AA called bullshit and the judiciary backed them repeatedly. Time to pay the piper for the pain caused.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHTYYZ DEN DOH BLR MAA TXL MEX
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:26 am

apodino wrote:
Now it seems like AA wants even more. This strikes me as an attempt to financially cripple the association.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2019/08/13/american-airlines-demands-mechanics-unions-pay-enormous-financial-losses-flight-delays-cancellations?utm_source=pushly

I don't even know where to begin with this one.


As OKCDCA noted above, look for this to be used in any upcoming talks. The company will agree to waive any fines in exchange for XXXX in the AMT & Fleet CBAs. Just like what happened with APA.

Hopefully, Samuelson's grandstanding won't harm the rank and file too much.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2267
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:37 am

As a total (foreign) outsider with no dog in the fight, I'm really concerned at the judiciary giving the Csuits in American a total free hand in how they use their labour - and I'm even more concerned that people with a supposed interest in aviation aren't aware of the danger here (on anet).

I know that many in the US have the default position of "unions are communism in another name" or similar - but surely even the dimmest can see the possible places such a free hand could lead to!

We have seen many instances in history where corporates are all too happy to compromise the safety of JoePublic in the name of a better result for that financial quarter.


Do you really want a mechanic working a 20hr shift on an aircraft your family is among the next to fly on? Might want to ponder that a bit before backing the AA board and that judge to the hilt without reservation.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:50 am

I certainly agree with you. That said, a lot of the problems AA ramp and mechanics are now facing are in large part due to the actions of their labor representatives.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:42 am

Amiga500 wrote:
As a total (foreign) outsider with no dog in the fight, I'm really concerned at the judiciary giving the Csuits in American a total free hand in how they use their labour - and I'm even more concerned that people with a supposed interest in aviation aren't aware of the danger here (on anet).

I know that many in the US have the default position of "unions are communism in another name" or similar - but surely even the dimmest can see the possible places such a free hand could lead to!

We have seen many instances in history where corporates are all too happy to compromise the safety of JoePublic in the name of a better result for that financial quarter.


Do you really want a mechanic working a 20hr shift on an aircraft your family is among the next to fly on? Might want to ponder that a bit before backing the AA board and that judge to the hilt without reservation.


Is this example really any different than Delta on any day of the year? Suggesting that, given a free hand, the board of any company and a Federal judge have zero concern for safety seems a bit extreme...
What incentive would AA have to overwork their mechanics any more than any other non-union carrier? From (briefly) reading the ruling and some comments on here, it appears as though the Judge only said "get back to normal and follow the law", not "feel free to work your mechanics for 20 hours straight". Sounds like the Union could easily countersue AA if AA started changing the normal way they treat their mechanics during negotiations.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2267
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:54 am

JAMBOJET wrote:
Is this example really any different than Delta on any day of the year?


Can Delta force their mechanics to work "overtime"? [and the judge's statement made no limit on the degree of that "overtime".]

(Honest question - I'm from outside jurisdiction and have no idea!)


JAMBOJET wrote:
Suggesting that, given a free hand, the board of any company and a Federal judge have zero concern for safety seems a bit extreme...


I did not say "zero" concern.

I also do not expect a judge to be smart enough to understand the implications of their actions beyond their own little throne room and I entirely expect the corporates to be "laser focused" (to borrow one of their bullsht buzzwords) on the next quarter's results and not on the fallout from their push to those exec bonuses.


JAMBOJET wrote:
What incentive would AA have to overwork their mechanics any more than any other non-union carrier?


Can non-union carriers force their employees to work "overtime"?

(again, honest question - I'm not US based so don't know how employment law works)


JAMBOJET wrote:
From (briefly) reading the ruling and some comments on here, it appears as though the Judge only said "get back to normal and follow the law", not "feel free to work your mechanics for 20 hours straight". Sounds like the Union could easily countersue AA if AA started changing the normal way they treat their mechanics during negotiations.


The judge's statement was incredibly open ended - and could result in much abuse.

A countersue may be too late if a plane has already failed due to fatigue (of the non metal variety).
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:57 am

Amiga500 wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Is this example really any different than Delta on any day of the year?


Can Delta force their mechanics to work "overtime"? [and the judge's statement made no limit on the degree of that "overtime".]

(Honest question - I'm from outside jurisdiction and have no idea!)


JAMBOJET wrote:
Suggesting that, given a free hand, the board of any company and a Federal judge have zero concern for safety seems a bit extreme...


I did not say "zero" concern.

I also do not expect a judge to be smart enough to understand the implications of their actions beyond their own little throne room and I entirely expect the corporates to be "laser focused" (to borrow one of their bullsht buzzwords) on the next quarter's results and not on the fallout from their push to those exec bonuses.


JAMBOJET wrote:
What incentive would AA have to overwork their mechanics any more than any other non-union carrier?


Can non-union carriers force their employees to work "overtime"?


JAMBOJET wrote:
From (briefly) reading the ruling and some comments on here, it appears as though the Judge only said "get back to normal and follow the law", not "feel free to work your mechanics for 20 hours straight". Sounds like the Union could easily countersue AA if AA started changing the normal way they treat their mechanics during negotiations.


The judge's statement was incredibly open ended - and could result in much abuse.

A countersue may be too late if a plane has already failed due to fatigue (of the non metal variety).

"Can a non-union carrier force their employees to work overtime?"
Yes. They're non-union, have no contract, and employed at will. In that sense, yes. In theory, their mechanics can be fired for picking their nose at work. Doesn't mean they will, but they can.
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1672
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:01 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Is this example really any different than Delta on any day of the year?


Can Delta force their mechanics to work "overtime"? [and the judge's statement made no limit on the degree of that "overtime".]

(Honest question - I'm from outside jurisdiction and have no idea!)


JAMBOJET wrote:
Suggesting that, given a free hand, the board of any company and a Federal judge have zero concern for safety seems a bit extreme...


I did not say "zero" concern.

I also do not expect a judge to be smart enough to understand the implications of their actions beyond their own little throne room and I entirely expect the corporates to be "laser focused" (to borrow one of their bullsht buzzwords) on the next quarter's results and not on the fallout from their push to those exec bonuses.


JAMBOJET wrote:
What incentive would AA have to overwork their mechanics any more than any other non-union carrier?


Can non-union carriers force their employees to work "overtime"?


JAMBOJET wrote:
From (briefly) reading the ruling and some comments on here, it appears as though the Judge only said "get back to normal and follow the law", not "feel free to work your mechanics for 20 hours straight". Sounds like the Union could easily countersue AA if AA started changing the normal way they treat their mechanics during negotiations.


The judge's statement was incredibly open ended - and could result in much abuse.

A countersue may be too late if a plane has already failed due to fatigue (of the non metal variety).

"Can a non-union carrier force their employees to work overtime?"
uhhhh. yes. They're non-union, have no contract, and employed at will. In that sense, yes. In theory, their mechanics can be fired for picking their nose at work. Doesn't mean they will, but they can.


Even a union carrier can force employees to work overtime usually they have to call it an operational emergency but thats easy to do.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2267
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:31 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
"Can a non-union carrier force their employees to work overtime?"
uhhhh. yes. They're non-union, have no contract, and employed at will. In that sense, yes. In theory, their mechanics can be fired for picking their nose at work. Doesn't mean they will, but they can.


Because you are non-union does not mean you have no contract and does not mean both employee and employer aren't protected under employment law.

[Surely the US isn't the wild west where its a free for all?!?]


stratosphere wrote:
Even a union carrier can force employees to work overtime usually they have to call it an operational emergency but thats easy to do.


So in this instance here, AA would have to declare an operational emergency?

Have they done so?
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:26 pm

Both the AA & US CBA's have language discussing mandatory (or "emergency") overtime.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Varsity1
Posts: 1919
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:29 pm

Antarius wrote:
apodino wrote:
Now it seems like AA wants even more. This strikes me as an attempt to financially cripple the association.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2019/08/13/american-airlines-demands-mechanics-unions-pay-enormous-financial-losses-flight-delays-cancellations?utm_source=pushly

I don't even know where to begin with this one.


Good.

AA called bullshit and the judiciary backed them repeatedly. Time to pay the piper for the pain caused.



It won't fly. Scare tactic to push for a vote.

AA has repeatably struggled with labor negotiations more than all the other US airlines combined. The same unions those other airlines are also negotiating with. Seems like a systematic management problem more than anything. How long will the stockholders put up with this management team's poor performance?!
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:40 pm

This management team got extremely quick contracts done with almost every work group. Its the union (The Association) in this case that has caused about 90% of the delays not the company. Why does the union put up with what is obviously a systematic management problem?
 
MIflyer12
Topic Author
Posts: 5433
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:53 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
AA has repeatably struggled with labor negotiations more than all the other US airlines combined.


You need to have some perspective with that assertion. NW had a pilots' strike that did not result in a presidential back-to-work order under Clinton (different from his AA order just months earlier). NW had a 15-month mechanics strike. DL had the Comair strike and was willing to go 90 days and let all the Comair pilots lose currency - that's a big 'Up Yours!' It took Smisek's departure and eight years to combine FA work groups at UA. Pre-AA, you had the US east vs. US (ex-HP) west pilot nonsense. WN pilots went ~5 years past the contract amendable date. Alaska pilots went into binding arbitration for a wage increase to match AA/DL/UA and fell rather short. And that's what I can do off the top of my head. There's plenty of acrimony in U.S. air carrier labor relations -- it's not at all unique to AA.
 
OD142NYC
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:59 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:02 pm

There is no mandatory OT at all in either the IAM nor the TWU Mechanics CBAs and the only reason the pilots a FAs reached quicker agreements is they had binding arbitration.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:10 pm

Yes there is. Stop with the misinformation.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
OD142NYC
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:59 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:38 pm

NWAESC wrote:
Yes there is. Stop with the misinformation.

There is not. There is in the fleet/ ramp CBAs, not mechanics, if there was why hasn’t one single mechanic been forced to work overtime or be sent on a field trip? Read AA’s motions, it even states there isn’t mandatory OT in maintenance.

In the LUS CBA, there is mandatory for deicing, but it doesn’t apply anymore as mechanics don’t deice anymore.

LUS IAM CBA

https://atd142.org/wp-content/uploads/2 ... _FINAL.pdf

LAA TWU CBA

https://atd142.org/wp-content/uploads/2 ... eement.pdf
 
OD142NYC
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:59 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:47 pm

Article 6 Paragraph G from the IAM LUS CBA


29 (G) No Inspector, Lead/Mechanic, Lead/Stock Clerk, or Lead/Utility
30 employee will be expected to work overtime against his wishes except for
31 deicing purposes only, when all eligible and qualified employees on duty
32 within the bid area have declined the overtime extension. In such cases, the
33 junior employees just getting off duty, within the bid area, may be required
34 to work up to three (3) hours of overtime or until sufficient employees
35 arrive, whichever is earlier. This provision does not apply to anyone who
36 has worked sixteen (16) or more consecutive hours (exclusive of meal
37 periods) at the time of the extension.
 
OD142NYC
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:59 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:53 pm

The TWU CBA says only in the event of an emergency and has to follow strict guidelines.

So why hasn’t AA mandatoried any AA mechanics?
 
WkndWanderer
Posts: 263
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:36 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:55 pm

apodino wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
apodino wrote:
To the last point, they haven't even made investors happy. Millions in stock buybacks and dividend payments, and the stock is near its 52 week low. Right now at AA the employees aren't happy, the Customers aren't happy, and Wall Street isn't happy. How does a CEO survive very long with all of these issues?

As for the first paragraph, I can speak to one position in particular (Dispatcher), and it seems they are getting 1000 aps per opening for this position, and hiring 30 candidates at a time. The demand is there still. Same with the pilots, and they even use this thing called an organizational fit assessment. If you fail it, you are done.

That being said, all my friends at Delta, United, and Southwest all seem happy to be there. Not so much at AA.

Sorry, but I've been reading about how horrible AA is for decades. The employees have forced out CEOs and then get mad at the new one. Back in the early 2000s it was so bad they were considering BK then so my Mom and I cashed in some miles to fly F to Japan.

They always say everything is unfair and management is evil, year after year after year. Yet through multiple AA management changes, a merger where US took over, new management since then, doesn't matter. AA is evil, employees are exploited.

Either it can't be fixed or it's posturing. Either way what exactly can be done?


If the Joint contract was the only issue Doug Parker was dealing with that would be one thing. Parkers problem goes far beyond labor disputes. A lot of things have happened at AA under Parker not related to labor that has many people doubting if he is the guy to lead the company. Let me list a few of them.

2. The decision to bank DFW instead of keep it as a rolling hub. This is well documented in other threads, but all I will say is Delta runs ATL as a rolling hub, and AA chooses to bank DFW. If you look at the operational stats for DFW, I bet you will see a decrease in good stats in the time since they decided to bank the hub.


AA's 2018 ontime performance at DFW was the same as it was in 2013, and better than it was in 2014.

apodino wrote:
3. The Oasis project. This is a project that could have been really good for the company but certain things associated with this have not been good. For example, removing the seatback monitors while your competitors add them. Also going to 172 seats in a 737. Another issue with this project is the vendors have been doing such shoddy maintenance that AA mechanics have had to spend a couple of weeks cleaning up the bad work done by the outsourced vendors.


Not having seatback TV's on the domestic fleet isn't the source of AA's inflight issues in my opinion. Alaska doesn't either, but has consistently topped customer service rankings for over a decade, the difference is AA's actual customer service.

apodino wrote:
5. The increase in the number of middle managers since taking over. United had a huge problem for years of a bloated middle management structure. Parker is doing the same thing at AA right now.


American did a management reduction and layoffs last fall.
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 287
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:06 pm

panam330 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Just when you thought AAs work culture couldn’t get any more cuddly.

No kidding. What a mess - and it's only getting worse.


If the mechanics were actively sabotaging AA as the airline claims, then this is what they deserve.
Delta Gold Medallion and Southwest A-List
 
apodino
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:10 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:
apodino wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
Sorry, but I've been reading about how horrible AA is for decades. The employees have forced out CEOs and then get mad at the new one. Back in the early 2000s it was so bad they were considering BK then so my Mom and I cashed in some miles to fly F to Japan.

They always say everything is unfair and management is evil, year after year after year. Yet through multiple AA management changes, a merger where US took over, new management since then, doesn't matter. AA is evil, employees are exploited.

Either it can't be fixed or it's posturing. Either way what exactly can be done?


If the Joint contract was the only issue Doug Parker was dealing with that would be one thing. Parkers problem goes far beyond labor disputes. A lot of things have happened at AA under Parker not related to labor that has many people doubting if he is the guy to lead the company. Let me list a few of them.

2. The decision to bank DFW instead of keep it as a rolling hub. This is well documented in other threads, but all I will say is Delta runs ATL as a rolling hub, and AA chooses to bank DFW. If you look at the operational stats for DFW, I bet you will see a decrease in good stats in the time since they decided to bank the hub.


AA's 2018 ontime performance at DFW was the same as it was in 2013, and better than it was in 2014.

apodino wrote:
3. The Oasis project. This is a project that could have been really good for the company but certain things associated with this have not been good. For example, removing the seatback monitors while your competitors add them. Also going to 172 seats in a 737. Another issue with this project is the vendors have been doing such shoddy maintenance that AA mechanics have had to spend a couple of weeks cleaning up the bad work done by the outsourced vendors.


Not having seatback TV's on the domestic fleet isn't the source of AA's inflight issues in my opinion. Alaska doesn't either, but has consistently topped customer service rankings for over a decade, the difference is AA's actual customer service.

apodino wrote:
5. The increase in the number of middle managers since taking over. United had a huge problem for years of a bloated middle management structure. Parker is doing the same thing at AA right now.


American did a management reduction and layoffs last fall.

On time performance....look at the controllable ontime percentage as opposed to straight on time percentage. Weather happens, and should not factor into this.

Alaska is an interesting comparison, but unless you are going to the west coast they are not an option for most travelers. The comparison you want to make here is United and Delta, not Alaska.

As for the management purge, that is what the company publicly said happened, but I can tell you it is not what is actually happening. And the managers in place are getting abused big time. In one case, 6 managers resigned to take a union position in the company, including one with over 40 years experience in non union positions. You think the union employees have it bad, try being a non union employee/manager?


Here is one other issue with the new motion asking for damages from the union. Many members want to cripple this association as well. If these members see what the company just put out, I would not be surprised if they caused even more damage hoping to force the association into paying out on this lawsuit. Samuelson appearing at the Unite rally for workers who would take jobs away from the people the association is negotiating for is going to leave a bad taste in some peoples mouths, and I assume that Sito over at the IAM has to be really upset by what Samuelson did yesterday.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:13 pm

OD142NYC wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
Yes there is. Stop with the misinformation.

There is not. There is in the fleet/ ramp CBAs, not mechanics, if there was why hasn’t one single mechanic been forced to work overtime or be sent on a field trip? Read AA’s motions, it even states there isn’t mandatory OT in maintenance.

In the LUS CBA, there is mandatory for deicing, but it doesn’t apply anymore as mechanics don’t deice anymore.



So the language exists. It might be dormant, but it's there.

Your earlier post (bold print is my doing):

Boof02671 wrote:
There is no mandatory OT at all in either the IAM nor the TWU Mechanics CBAs...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:17 pm

apodino wrote:
Here is one other issue with the new motion asking for damages from the union. Many members want to cripple this association as well.


Can't say I blame 'em. I'd be pissed if I had new representation thrust on me w/o a vote too.

Samuelson appearing at the Unite rally for workers who would take jobs away from the people the association is negotiating for is going to leave a bad taste in some peoples mouths, and I assume that Sito over at the IAM has to be really upset by what Samuelson did yesterday.


The irony can't be lost on AA's rank-and-file...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
bourbon
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:35 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:18 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:

American did a management reduction and layoffs last fall.


Unfortunately they didn’t get rid of the top brass who actually think the ways of a poorly run 250 aircraft airline are the key to success of a 950 aircraft airline. Until the folks from PHX C-suite and their pre merger pals are out AA will continue to fail.

United should be weary of Kirby too as he came from the same breed. There is a reason some of them didn’t make the cut during the Delta/Northwest merger. Cutting costs and being cheap has always been the key to a successful business... no need to provide a superior product and service.

It’d be nice to see the cost savings from the outsourced heavy maintenance vendors compared to having done work in house.
 
apodino
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:21 am

bourbon wrote:
WkndWanderer wrote:

American did a management reduction and layoffs last fall.


Unfortunately they didn’t get rid of the top brass who actually think the ways of a poorly run 250 aircraft airline are the key to success of a 950 aircraft airline. Until the folks from PHX C-suite and their pre merger pals are out AA will continue to fail.

United should be weary of Kirby too as he came from the same breed. There is a reason some of them didn’t make the cut during the Delta/Northwest merger. Cutting costs and being cheap has always been the key to a successful business... no need to provide a superior product and service.

It’d be nice to see the cost savings from the outsourced heavy maintenance vendors compared to having done work in house.


Funny you mention the Delta/Northwest cut. A lot of the NW folks who didn't make this cut are actually in pretty high management positions currently at AA. Employees have rightly pointed out how it makes little sense we can be more competitive than Delta with the people that Delta didn't want.

A couple of other things to note today. One is that the AA stock closed at a Three year low today, and there was an article I believe on the Fool explaining why, and how AA has more debt than its competitors. In fact, AA has more debt than United and Southwest combined, and also more debt than Delta and Southwest combined. Here is a link to that article.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/08/14/why-shares-of-american-airlines-were-grounded-on-w.aspx

Secondly, the Association has appealed the Judges ruling to the Fifth Circuit based in New Orleans. This is going to drag this out even further, and who knows what happens after.

Lastly, the NMB meets with the company and the association separately this week in what are known as Status Updates. I don't know what happens after that. I suspect Association reps will petition the NMB to be release from mediation to begin the 30 day cooling off period. I don't see the NMB granting this, and what really hurts the association is the continued bizarre behavior of TWU president John Samuleson. I don't see how anything he has done lately has helped the membership.
 
apodino
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:15 pm

Ok....so the Association and the Company had separate meetings with the NMB yesterday. It is unclear what happens next.
 
apodino
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:33 am

A lot of people are now under the impression that the IAM is so determined on medical they are just going to continue to wait this out, and try to get the pilots and the flight attendants in their negotiations to negotiate the medical, regardless of what the TWU wants. An appeal of the injunction was made, and the NMB meetings have happened. But a lot of people feel that the TWU is being taken for a ride by the IAM, and because of the way this association was formed, they are sick of it.
 
alasizon
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: AA gets permanent injunction against mechanics union

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:48 am

apodino wrote:
A lot of people are now under the impression that the IAM is so determined on medical they are just going to continue to wait this out, and try to get the pilots and the flight attendants in their negotiations to negotiate the medical, regardless of what the TWU wants. An appeal of the injunction was made, and the NMB meetings have happened. But a lot of people feel that the TWU is being taken for a ride by the IAM, and because of the way this association was formed, they are sick of it.


I think that is something that is a pretty fair possibility. The IAM has no incentive to even truly negotiate.
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