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Opus99
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Re: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:40 pm

metroline2006 wrote:
Lufthansa wrote:
Prost wrote:
Does BA have any interest in operating nonstop to Australia? This would be a good plane for that.


I think virgin has expressed some interest but if QF does it and BA has the A350 anyway its not off the cards. There are more
UK citizens living in Australia than all of Europe combined. Add to that its almost certain that commonwealth trade links
are about get significantly more important.

QF pretty much have made up there mind if they're doing this.
The only way Boeing can get this one now is going to be VERY VERY big discounts. Couple that with a limited market
with only a handful of carriers having any need for the jet.... say Singapore, Air NZ,(both for the Americas) obviously QF and potentially a British
carrier, and maybe a few Middle East carriers taking it for routes like Auckland, And at a stretch maybe Turkish, they're not
going to produce that many frames. Airbus has the upper hand here as a lot of the design work is already done in the
A350-900ULR.

IAG (BA) does hold options on the A350

Indeed. 36 for BA
 
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Stitch
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:53 pm

sabby wrote:
FrenchBee (I hope that's what you meant) are a low cost leisure airlines and they fill their aircrafts to the brim with seats. As of now, their upcoming A35Ks are supposed to be 488 seats. That might barely get them to HNL from CDG, not PPT.


The currently certified maximum Exit Limit for the A350-1000 is 440 with four Type A exits so how do FrenchBee intend to seat 488? I've seen pictures of their first frame (MSN 65, the second test frame) undergoing refurbishment for passenger operations and there was no mention of additional exits being added (they'd need a pair of Type C overwing exits which would bring the Limit to 495).
 
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Stitch
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:57 pm

Well this was a nice thread while it lasted... :banghead:
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:02 pm

about french bee -900: The aircraft capacity is 411 with a unique 3-4-3 economy configuration
https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Frenc ... 50-900.php

about -1000:
https://www.air-cosmos.com/article/fren ... -900-10471
Enfin en 2021 et 2022, la compagnie a pour projet d'intégrer deux Airbus A350-1000 de 480 sièges permettant d'économiser en plus 9% de kérosène par siège par rapport à l'A350-900


wiki really refered to 488-seats layout
but the only number i can see in referring links is 480
https://aviationweek.com/awincommercial ... stinations


interesting airbus doing this with early test aircraft:
https://samchui.com/2018/08/22/airbus-b ... VQTN-gzaUk
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:06 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Vladex wrote:
if A359ULR is doing only 161 passengers , how much can A351ULR do ? Not many more I reckon and I think all of this ULR should have waited for a new engine anyway.

161 is SQ's chosen configuration, and not a hard limit on the A359ULR's capabilities.


DarthLobster wrote:
Why is Airbus so afraid to just go another digit up? Just call the damn thing an A350-1100. Enough with this neo/XLR/ULR/VCR crap...

Quite simply because there's no fuselage stretch, it's simply a modification of an extant variant.

Same thing at Boeing: a 777-200LR had a new engine, new wingtip devices, new tires, new internal plumbing options, and vastly different weight limits.... but it was still a 777-200 frame. Hence only the suffix change.


The 777-200LR was more like a 777-300ER shrunk down to the same length as a 777-200.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:08 pm

Well 480 seats could be achieved with a Type II exit.

Or is Airbus looking to certify a larger Type A door like they did with the Type C+ on the A321?

A Type A+ that would allow 120 passengers per exit pair compared to the 110 of the Type A would boost the Exit Limit to 480.
 
pabloeing
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:09 pm

¿launch a new model of plane is to win a order ?........no.......the battle of the proyect sunrise is open.....
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:23 pm

Stitch wrote:
sabby wrote:
FrenchBee (I hope that's what you meant) are a low cost leisure airlines and they fill their aircrafts to the brim with seats. As of now, their upcoming A35Ks are supposed to be 488 seats. That might barely get them to HNL from CDG, not PPT.


The currently certified maximum Exit Limit for the A350-1000 is 440 with four Type A exits so how do FrenchBee intend to seat 488? I've seen pictures of their first frame (MSN 65, the second test frame) undergoing refurbishment for passenger operations and there was no mention of additional exits being added (they'd need a pair of Type C overwing exits which would bring the Limit to 495).

4 pairs of Type A Doors allow for 440 passengers (110 pax per pair of Type A Door).
However, it seems Airbus is working on a Type A-plus Door, which would allow 120 passengers per pair; 480 pax in total. Source
 
caljn
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:26 pm

rigo wrote:
As a passenger, my only complaint about the 777 is how noisy it is. I don't know if the -X models will be any better in that regard, but the A350's quiet cabin would IMHO be a huge bonus on a 20+ hours flight.



Usually this "tax cuts increase revenue" like argument typically is found further up thread. What took so long?
 
Planetalk
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:28 pm

Aviation737 wrote:
Why would SQ get this plane if they already have the 777x on order? Same with British Airways or any airlines that already chosen the 777x


A good question. The answer is likely to be of more concern to Boeing rather than Airbus, especially if delays to the 777x mean airlines can get out of their contracts without penalty... A bird in the hand is worth two in the Bush.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:39 pm

pabloeing wrote:
¿launch a new model of plane is to win a order ?........no.......the battle of the proyect sunrise is open.....


what is the last time you heard of an Aircraft program lunch without lunch customers?

If they lunch it, they will have orders. Now if that customer is Qantas or someone else,we don´t know, but we don´t really see other airlines asking for a 300 seater, that can go from Sydney to London, which is one of the very few things an A35K can´t do already.

best regards
Thomas
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Erebus
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:59 pm

Didn't VN show some interest in such long range capabilities to reach US destinations? I remember Boeing pitching the 778 to them, but couldn't this work for them as well, especially since they already have the -900.
 
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AECM
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:12 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Stitch wrote:
sabby wrote:
FrenchBee (I hope that's what you meant) are a low cost leisure airlines and they fill their aircrafts to the brim with seats. As of now, their upcoming A35Ks are supposed to be 488 seats. That might barely get them to HNL from CDG, not PPT.


The currently certified maximum Exit Limit for the A350-1000 is 440 with four Type A exits so how do FrenchBee intend to seat 488? I've seen pictures of their first frame (MSN 65, the second test frame) undergoing refurbishment for passenger operations and there was no mention of additional exits being added (they'd need a pair of Type C overwing exits which would bring the Limit to 495).

4 pairs of Type A Doors allow for 440 passengers (110 pax per pair of Type A Door).
However, it seems Airbus is working on a Type A-plus Door, which would allow 120 passengers per pair; 480 pax in total. Source


The new type A-Plus Door is the same that should be used in the upcoming Cebu A339 with 460 seats.

Airbus was doing some laminar flow tests with the A350 earlier this year so maybe there is also a new improvement coming.
Last edited by AECM on Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
h1fl1er
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:21 pm

Why would all these airlines suddenly be interested in this frame when they were not in the base 35K? Extra range via increased tankage does not improve economics nor reduce the apparently excessive cost of the aircraft. Flying UULR is a niche endeavor.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:28 pm

h1fl1er wrote:
Why would all these airlines suddenly be interested in this frame when they were not in the base 35K? Extra range via increased tankage does not improve economics nor reduce the apparently excessive cost of the aircraft. Flying UULR is a niche endeavor.


If there is an MTOW bump, then the payload-range curve of the aircraft may break through a glass ceiling unseen by us.

[agreed that very few would be interested purely on the basis of increased tankage]


If there is an MTOW bump, and it is available to the standard A35K, then hopefully the split in orders between the two would illustrate where airlines see the value.
 
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AECM
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:35 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
h1fl1er wrote:
Why would all these airlines suddenly be interested in this frame when they were not in the base 35K? Extra range via increased tankage does not improve economics nor reduce the apparently excessive cost of the aircraft. Flying UULR is a niche endeavor.


If there is an MTOW bump, then the payload-range curve of the aircraft may break through a glass ceiling unseen by us.

[agreed that very few would be interested purely on the basis of increased tankage]


If there is an MTOW bump, and it is available to the standard A35K, then hopefully the split in orders between the two would illustrate where airlines see the value.
Based on current information I think that Airbus will release the following:

New MTOW of 319 ton;
Option of the new A-type Plus exits bringing the max seating to arround 480;
ULR treatment based on the new MTOW.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:57 pm

h1fl1er wrote:
Why would all these airlines suddenly be interested in this frame when they were not in the base 35K? Extra range via increased tankage does not improve economics nor reduce the apparently excessive cost of the aircraft. Flying UULR is a niche endeavor.


You're one of many that takes huge issue with suggesting the A350 can fly more than 2 hours, right? Nice to have you here.

Some points:
- Some airlines interested do have A35Ks on order, QR for example.
- Many airlines haven't decided on 77W replacement yet, an A35KULR widens the appeal.
- ULR flying is becoming more commonplace now as the aircraft are more efficient.
- Airbus is talking to airlines about it, they wouldn't launch it if there was no interest.
- Where did you hear the cost is excessive?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:19 pm

h1fl1er wrote:
Why would all these airlines suddenly be interested in this frame when they were not in the base 35K? Extra range via increased tankage does not improve economics nor reduce the apparently excessive cost of the aircraft. Flying UULR is a niche endeavor.


Going from "not buying" to "not interested" is quite the leap. There are probably more people interested in Tesla model X or S than in a model 3. But even among those that could afford either, a good number will still chose the 3, because the value is out of sync with the higher price for them.

There will be some point in pricing where Airbus has higher margins on a cheaper A359 than on a sufficiently discounted A35K, and hence no incentive to sell the big bird at prices airlines are willing to pay.

If you want to sell a more expensive product, the value gap has to be bigger than the price gap, since the A35K is at the moment mostly a bigger plane with a touch more range, this, obviously, isn't the case very often at the moment. This modification gives it much longer range, hence widening the capability gap, and that widens the value gap with a number of customers. Hence more customers willing to pay the price at which Airbus is willing to build it.

To go back to the Tesla anology: the model 3 won't get bigger battery (=range), because there is a significant (?) number of customers that want a BEV with more range, that only buy the bigger model for that very purpose, and would otherwise stick to the model 3.

The A359 is already a model 3 with bigger battery, now the A35K is getting an even bigger one. We'll see what it does. If it is in the end just a paper exercise, because all other changes migrate into the standard A35k, Airbus can offer it as one of those "you can buy an up-rate if you need it in 10 years, without introducing a new type" things that comes from being bigger than the 787.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tommy1808
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:21 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
- Where did you hear the cost is excessive?


Excessive may be too strong a term, but to explain sales numbers either the aircraft sits in a spot that has no market, unlikely I think, or Airbus is asking to much money for it.

Best regards
Thomas
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Revelation
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Re: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:25 pm

aryonoco wrote:
I'm not sure if it's as quick after EIS, but over the life of the program, the improvements that the A330 has seen have been nothing short of miraculous.

I mean just look at the A330CEO, if you compare the last 242t version to what was coming out of the production line in mid 90s, they are basically two completely different planes with different mission profiles.

I see Airbus continuing this with the A350, which is great, and why I'm not worried about the A350 (especially the A35J) being a slow seller for the time being. Airbus will continuously improve it and make it more capable, making it an attractive plane for more and more operators.

If there was a business case for the 778, that business case is now even narrower. Boeing should delay that for the time being IMO.

The improvements of the A330 (and for that matter A321) have been miraculous, but I'm not sure we should say this will continue going forward.

A large part of the A330 improvements were built in to it due to A340, and once Airbus decided to open up features on the A330 and also decided to move some gains from A340NG back to A330 we had a lot of "easy" improvements. Also once A340 was ended, Airbus was able to clean up the wing and reduce its weight and cost.

Also we now have warehouse scale computing that can be rented as needed and advanced distributed software to run on those computers to optimize designs, which IMO means planes will come off the line much more optimized than the original A330/A321 did.

There's always some 'baby fat' to trim because engineers are conservative, but modern tools limit that conservatism a lot more than in the old days of the 80s and 90s.
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zeke
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:38 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
pabloeing wrote:
¿launch a new model of plane is to win a order ?........no.......the battle of the proyect sunrise is open.....


what is the last time you heard of an Aircraft program lunch without lunch customers?

If they lunch it, they will have orders. Now if that customer is Qantas or someone else,we don´t know, but we don´t really see other airlines asking for a 300 seater, that can go from Sydney to London, which is one of the very few things an A35K can´t do already.

best regards
Thomas


Maybe the lunch customers would like to take the cake and eat it too. (Wasch mir den Pelz, aber mach mich nicht nass).
;)

h1fl1er wrote:
Why would all these airlines suddenly be interested in this frame when they were not in the base 35K? Extra range via increased tankage does not improve economics nor reduce the apparently excessive cost of the aircraft. Flying UULR is a niche endeavor.


The marketing range and payloads quoted by OEMs are for passengers and their baggage only and very basic interiors. Enhanced capabilities will allow for more opulent interiors, additional revenue cargo, adverse temperatures/altitude on takeoff, strong enroute headwinds, adverse conditions at the destination requiring additional holding fuel or a longer distance alternate.

AECM wrote:
New MTOW of 319 ton;
Option of the new A-type Plus exits bringing the max seating to arround 480;
ULR treatment based on the new MTOW.


319 tonne A350-1000 was released in the Airbus product brochure in April of this year.
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:05 pm

May I kindly ask you to keep this thread on topic which is the rumour that there will be a A350-100ULR? Thanks.
 
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AECM
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:14 pm

zeke wrote:
319 tonne A350-1000 was released in the Airbus product brochure in April of this year.


I thought it was only a rumor. In this case a possible ULR should be based on this 319 ton or can the MTOW increase more?
 
J343
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:20 pm

Someone has mentioned earlier that CX could potentially order the A35K ULR for MIA. Is there a reason why they cant just go with the A359 ULR for MIA and potentially S.America?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:25 pm

AECM wrote:
zeke wrote:
319 tonne A350-1000 was released in the Airbus product brochure in April of this year.


I thought it was only a rumor. In this case a possible ULR should be based on this 319 ton or can the MTOW increase more?


It certainly has the wings for more. There seems to be a tendency for significant MTOW growth potential to be found in Airbus frames recently, where room for 5 to 10% more MTOW was suddenly available. A330 from 235 to now 251, A321 from 93.5 to 101 .... the A359 got 5t extra, and maybe some of that, if present in the A35k, may already be in the 319t version, maybe not.

I don't remember which user, but someone did some convincing math in the project sunshine tread that ended up with 322 or 324t needed to do what Qantas wants.

Best regards
Thomas
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tommy1808
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:32 pm

J343 wrote:
Someone has mentioned earlier that CX could potentially order the A35K ULR for MIA. Is there a reason why they cant just go with the A359 ULR for MIA and potentially S.America?


Probably not enough range with a cabin they'd like, even the smallest config has 280 seats and MIA is quite cargo heavy too, but not so premium heavy as other places imho.

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Thomas
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zeke
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:33 pm

AECM wrote:
zeke wrote:
319 tonne A350-1000 was released in the Airbus product brochure in April of this year.


I thought it was only a rumor. In this case a possible ULR should be based on this 319 ton or can the MTOW increase more?


It was published for some time now, see page 24

https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... ooklet.pdf

Yes TOW can increase further, I suggest you will see a small 3 klb thrust increase as well. On two different notes, an A350-900ULR/A350ACJ W/V 019 has been added to the TCDS at 235 tonnes, and RR have certified a new software version for the engine which incases the speeds and temperatures, ( SB 73-K228 (6.1.1 Software) ). This will be transparent to crews however the performance database will be updated for improved takeoff and climb performance.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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zeke
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:41 pm

J343 wrote:
Someone has mentioned earlier that CX could potentially order the A35K ULR for MIA. Is there a reason why they cant just go with the A359 ULR for MIA and potentially S.America?


I would guess the business case just is not attractive enough at the time. Aircraft represent a significant capital investment, a hypothetical business case for example to MIA would be compared to SEA and CPT and a host of other ports to see what would represent the best return for the investors both in terms of the route and the impact on the overall network.

Throw an A350ULR or enhanced A350-1000E whatever you want to call it might facilitate additional cargo revenue which potentially could change the business case viability.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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AECM
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:47 pm

zeke wrote:
AECM wrote:
zeke wrote:
319 tonne A350-1000 was released in the Airbus product brochure in April of this year.


I thought it was only a rumor. In this case a possible ULR should be based on this 319 ton or can the MTOW increase more?


It was published for some time now, see page 24

https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... ooklet.pdf

Yes TOW can increase further, I suggest you will see a small 3 klb thrust increase as well. On two different notes, an A350-900ULR/A350ACJ W/V 019 has been added to the TCDS at 235 tonnes, and RR have certified a new software version for the engine which incases the speeds and temperatures, ( SB 73-K228 (6.1.1 Software) ). This will be transparent to crews however the performance database will be updated for improved takeoff and climb performance.
So we could see a Trent XWB-100 and maybe a 322 ton MTOW?
 
OmerMaz
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:11 pm

[/quote]So we could see a Trent XWB-100 and maybe a 322 ton MTOW?[/quote]


I think that the 321 ton MTOW is already being offered by Airbus, if it's true, they'll probably need to bump it even further than 322T.
Then again, wouldn't that make that plane more of a fuel hauling beast than one that could actualy carry cargo?

I'm no engineer, just making assumptions.

Either way, I really love the A350, and with regards or with disregard to project sunrise, I do hope that the A350 will be even more succsesfull.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:31 pm

chiad wrote:
The EK B777X renegotiate and delay, combined with this news ... I guess it can really make you wonder.

Quote
"Airbus intend to have the aircraft available to airline customers before the 777X is able to gain a significant hold of the extreme end of the long-haul market."

Sounds like the B777X could have a knife to its throat especially if there are more delays, but how can the A350-1000ULR EIS before 2022?

Polot wrote:
I think they are targeting the 778 more with that statement. The 779 will still be a larger aircraft. The 778 is similar size but larger range. Airbus is closing/eliminating that range gap.


This is my initial line of thinking, as well.

We can be assured that Airbus has been discussing the A350-1000ULR with airlines for years. And I am sure EK, EY and QR have been visited by Airbus sales teams with presentations on the frame and those airlines Fleet Planning divisions have been doing internal comparisons with the data Boeing has provided on the 777-8.

We're now hearing rumors that Boeing has suspended 777-8 development. We know EY will not take their frames and EK is said to be renegotiating their 777X order, with strong speculation the 777-8 is part of those negotiations. If EK wants to convert or cancel their 777-8 order, that leaves only 10 frames for QR and the potential QF order.

So now the rumor mill says Airbus has enough confirmed interest from multiple customers to formally launch the A350-1000ULR. That would imply that EK has decided to convert/cancel their 777-8 order and QF has selected A350-1000ULR for their Project Sunrise program. As for QR, I speculate they either decided to convert or cancel their 777-8 order or Boeing has convinced them to do so to allow them to stop development of the 777-8.
 
DWC
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:38 pm

Boeing & Airbus are not just industrial entities, but also financial players.

With B's & A's line-up streamlined, we now have a better view of their pawns on the chessboard.
Specifically, with the demise of the A380 & perhaps that of the 778, A have every incentive to dent into the 77X, both for
1) price pressure ( prevent B from charging the 30-40 additional million in the absence of an Airbus VLA ) &
2) the additional sales A will have for every A351ULR at the expense of every 77XULR not ordered (or whatever it is labelled). The 748i was launched for that very reason, to dent into the sales of the A380 (and of course renew the 744F fleet worldwide), perhaps as much half of the 47 frames produced did not go to the A380.

Sales campaigns sometimes include a mix of models, typically Boeing could sell their other frames less while charging more for the 744 & then the 77W. A dreamt of doing that with the A380. Interestingly, the A220 B wanted to kill now could serve as a similar bargain chip if sold in big numbers : the recent sales to AF, & before to DL suggest the possibiliy. The fact B is buying Embraer only makes sense if Game theory pricing is taken into account with smaller models.

So, my reading is that Airbus do have
1) prospective customers other than QF
2) not getting the QF contract would not be much of a loss as they don't own that ULH market
3) but as a new entrant, snatching Project Sunrise would be a blow to B, both in terms of image & in additional sales for A
Last, depending on what contract QF had with A regarding those 8 A380 frames QF never took, A may, or may not, have remaining bargaining power to force QF to play in their favour.
 
h1fl1er
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:23 pm

DWC wrote:
Boeing & Airbus are not just industrial entities, but also financial players.

With B's & A's line-up streamlined, we now have a better view of their pawns on the chessboard.
Specifically, with the demise of the A380 & perhaps that of the 778, A have every incentive to dent into the 77X, both for
1) price pressure ( prevent B from charging the 30-40 additional million in the absence of an Airbus VLA ) &
2) the additional sales A will have for every A351ULR at the expense of every 77XULR not ordered (or whatever it is labelled). The 748i was launched for that very reason, to dent into the sales of the A380 (and of course renew the 744F fleet worldwide), perhaps as much half of the 47 frames produced did not go to the A380.

Sales campaigns sometimes include a mix of models, typically Boeing could sell their other frames less while charging more for the 744 & then the 77W. A dreamt of doing that with the A380. Interestingly, the A220 B wanted to kill now could serve as a similar bargain chip if sold in big numbers : the recent sales to AF, & before to DL suggest the possibiliy. The fact B is buying Embraer only makes sense if Game theory pricing is taken into account with smaller models.

So, my reading is that Airbus do have
1) prospective customers other than QF
2) not getting the QF contract would not be much of a loss as they don't own that ULH market
3) but as a new entrant, snatching Project Sunrise would be a blow to B, both in terms of image & in additional sales for A
Last, depending on what contract QF had with A regarding those 8 A380 frames QF never took, A may, or may not, have remaining bargaining power to force QF to play in their favour.


the 778 and hypothetical 359KU are not really competitors in any real sense. the payload capacities are far apart on these. the 778 is a much bigger, heavier jet with substantially more lift. A good example is how is the 77L used...it's not at all for extreme range in all but a few cases, like AKL-DOH or JNB-ATL. It's for payload. The thing can haul MTOW 7600nm, like 52t. The 35K, using Airbus' ACAPS is around 40t payload at that range (316t MTOW). Swapping fuel for payload does not make this a more compelling business case.

If airbus is launching this frame it is for the same reasons they did the 359U- for relatively low payload, extreme range operations. There is a flipside to being first, early bird gets the worm but the 2nd rat gets the cheese. Other entrants into Kangaroo Route nonstops may find that the 35KU isn't economical for them and if along comes the 778 with better payload/range performance, an early adopter can get thrashed. But producing a 359U didn't suddenly convert fence sitters into buyers of the 359; this rumored plane isn't likely to do different.
 
Aceskywalker
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:29 pm

This could be a perfect counter to a 777X-F and a great opportunity to pick at Boeing's virtual monopoly on new delivery cargo aircraft.
 
CO787EWR
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:40 pm

Well the A350-1000 ULR might be the only game in town for the QF order.

https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-deve ... 77-8-777x/

"
 
olle
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:01 pm

Anyone that has a current comperstion between 778 and a350 321 tons version if that being offered as the new base version?
 
tealnz
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:25 pm

CO787EWR wrote:
Well the A350-1000 ULR might be the only game in town for the QF order.

https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-deve ... 77-8-777x/

Yeah hard to see Boeing putting the 778 on ice if it was still in contention for the QF order. Airbus put in a better technical/commercial bid? Or AJ ran out of patience on 77X delays?
 
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zeke
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:26 pm

h1fl1er wrote:
the 778 and hypothetical 359KU are not really competitors in any real sense. the payload capacities are far apart on these. the 778 is a much bigger, heavier jet with substantially more lift. A good example is how is the 77L used...it's not at all for extreme range in all but a few cases, like AKL-DOH or JNB-ATL. It's for payload. The thing can haul MTOW 7600nm, like 52t. The 35K, using Airbus' ACAPS is around 40t payload at that range (316t MTOW). Swapping fuel for payload does not make this a more compelling business case.


I think anutters are far more intelligent than you give then the benefit of doubt for.

They know the A350-1000 will carry more passengers than the 777-8, it has a larger cabin.

BTW, can you explain to us all where you get these payload range figures for the 777-X, as Boeing has not published anything. The 777-X ACAPS was last updated in March 2018, it contains no information on the 777-8, no dimensions, no weights, no performance. Yet you seem to be able to make baseless claims on what the 777-8 can/will do.

That is the problem with these threads that are clearly about the A350, Airbus haters come on making all sorts of claims however cannot actually show where they got their numbers from. One aircraft is clearly in service flying long haul every day, and another where the first example has not even been built, that is if it gets built. Even the manufacturer has pushed it back.
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tomcat
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:40 pm

h1fl1er wrote:

the 778 and hypothetical 359KU are not really competitors in any real sense. the payload capacities are far apart on these. the 778 is a much bigger, heavier jet with substantially more lift. A good example is how is the 77L used...it's not at all for extreme range in all but a few cases, like AKL-DOH or JNB-ATL. It's for payload. The thing can haul MTOW 7600nm, like 52t. The 35K, using Airbus' ACAPS is around 40t payload at that range (316t MTOW). Swapping fuel for payload does not make this a more compelling business case.

If airbus is launching this frame it is for the same reasons they did the 359U- for relatively low payload, extreme range operations. There is a flipside to being first, early bird gets the worm but the 2nd rat gets the cheese. Other entrants into Kangaroo Route nonstops may find that the 35KU isn't economical for them and if along comes the 778 with better payload/range performance, an early adopter can get thrashed. But producing a 359U didn't suddenly convert fence sitters into buyers of the 359; this rumored plane isn't likely to do different.


Your estimates for the A35K payload over 7600nm seem on the low end. The 316t A35K can haul 35t over 8400nm. Limiting the range to 7600nm allows to trade at least 9t of fuel for payload. On the other hand, if the 778 ends up with a 69.8m length (which I understand is far from being frozen, since the 778 config is not frozen), it would be challenged to maintain the same payload capacity as the 77L unless the MZFW of the former would go up as much as its OEW (+15t at least vs the 77L OEW). I think that in terms of payload on a given range, a 69.8m 778 and the 316t A35K are closer than you present it.
Last edited by tomcat on Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
T4thH
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:42 pm

tealnz wrote:
CO787EWR wrote:
Well the A350-1000 ULR might be the only game in town for the QF order.

https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-deve ... 77-8-777x/

Yeah hard to see Boeing putting the 778 on ice if it was still in contention for the QF order. Airbus put in a better technical/commercial bid? Or AJ ran out of patience on 77X delays?


It is not only this, what is stopped or is on hold. Boeing seems to have stopped already everything, with exception of to get the B777-X into the air. All engineers seems now to work on the B737 Max to fix all the issues. In one German news (an interview) it was recently announced, also the NMA program is on hold and all engineers are working now on the B737 Max program. And only few of the Boeing staff still believes the NMA program will be restarted, when the MAX issues have been solved.
 
moyangmm
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:52 pm

h1fl1er wrote:
the 778 and hypothetical 359KU are not really competitors in any real sense. the payload capacities are far apart on these. the 778 is a much bigger, heavier jet with substantially more lift. A good example is how is the 77L used...it's not at all for extreme range in all but a few cases, like AKL-DOH or JNB-ATL. It's for payload. The thing can haul MTOW 7600nm, like 52t. The 35K, using Airbus' ACAPS is around 40t payload at that range (316t MTOW). Swapping fuel for payload does not make this a more compelling business case.


Like zeke said, ACAPS assumes a very basic cabin. "range and payloads quoted by OEMs are for passengers and their baggage only and very basic interiors". What is the realistic range of A350-1000ULR if it is just 319t with a bit more fuel capacity, and simply trade payload for fuel? I think the target number of seats is about 250-300?
Last edited by moyangmm on Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
tomcat
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:54 pm

xwb777 wrote:
After engaging in formal talks with several airlines, Airbus will be announcing the launch of the A350-1000ULR. The A350-1000ULR is poised to compete head to head with the upcoming B777X. The new aircraft will have a longer range than the A350-900ULR which is currently in service, and will be capable of carrying more passengers.

Airbus commitment in launching the new aircraft comes after several talks with potential airlines who have shown interest in ordering the jet and converting current A350 orders to the newer jet. Airbus have stated that the new model will be available before in the market before the B777X

Is this a sign that Qantas will go forward with Airbus for its 'project Sunrise' aircraft?

Source: https://aviationanalyst.co.uk/2019/08/1 ... 0-1000ulr/


I don't know if it's a sign that Qantas will go forward with Airbus for its 'project Sunrise' but the BAFOs are expected by the end of this month. At this point in time the contenders must has settled on the configuration of the product that they will offer so we can expect some information to start leaking. It's not a surprise that Airbus will offer an A350-1000ULR for Sunrise (what else could they offer?) and if they are ready to offer it to Qantas, I don't see what's preventing them to start offering it to any airline that might be interested. Somehow this article is pretty much stating the obvious and with that, we still don't know what the A35K-ULR will be.
 
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zeke
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:09 am

tomcat wrote:
Your estimates for the A35K payload over 7600nm seem on the low end. The 316t A35K can haul 35t over 8400nm. Limiting the range to 7600nm allows to trade at least 9t of fuel for payload.


The design range was increased yet again from 8400 nm to 8700 nm.

https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/passeng ... -1000.html
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foxtrotbravo21
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:27 am

Not sure that even this rumoured launch of the A350-1000ULR can even carry 300 pax for a 19 hour flight. As is SIA's A350ULR is carrying only 166 pax for its 19 hour flight SIN-EWR.
 
moyangmm
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:35 am

foxtrotbravo21 wrote:
Not sure that even this rumoured launch of the A350-1000ULR can even carry 300 pax for a 19 hour flight. As is SIA's A350ULR is carrying only 166 pax for its 19 hour flight SIN-EWR.


I think QF has dialed down the capacity requirement for Sunrise. It should be able to carry around 250 passengers, maybe a little less, and bags for a 19 hour flight.
 
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zeke
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:42 am

foxtrotbravo21 wrote:
Not sure that even this rumoured launch of the A350-1000ULR can even carry 300 pax for a 19 hour flight. As is SIA's A350ULR is carrying only 166 pax for its 19 hour flight SIN-EWR.


Many people make the assumption based upon the 77W to 77L that the A350-900ULR shares the same weights as the A350-1000.

The -900 design range is 8100 nm, the -1000 design range is 8700 nm mainly achieved via the MTOW difference from 280 tonnes to 319 tonnes. The -900ULR is 9700 nm with a MTOW of 280 tonnes, it shares the MTOW of the -900 not the -1000.

Who knows what they have planned to an A350-1000ULR, if we look at the -900 to -900LR they increased MTOW by 5 tonnes, increased centre tank fuel capacity, reduced the water and waste size to reflect the lower loads, smaller/lighter fuselage doors, deactivated the forward cargo hold, aero improvements, engine improvements, wing twist, new sharklets, and added the -1000 nose gear.
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:51 am

T4thH wrote:
It is not only this, what is stopped or is on hold. Boeing seems to have stopped already everything, with exception of to get the B777-X into the air. All engineers seems now to work on the B737 Max to fix all the issues. In one German news (an interview) it was recently announced, also the NMA program is on hold and all engineers are working now on the B737 Max program. And only few of the Boeing staff still believes the NMA program will be restarted, when the MAX issues have been solved.

Seems dubious to me. Since you provided no link I did a bunch of Google searches and found nothing like what you report with regards to workers moving from NMA to MAX. Maybe there is something in German language google.de but I could find nothing on google.com. Also seems this is best discussed in a MAX or NMA thread, not an A350 thread.
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moa999
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:51 am

Assuming the aircraft will still need to be premium heavy for Sunrise, not sure if BA would want such a subfleet.

If see better uses for BA in a regular config like MAN-SIN (SQ currently does this on a 35J on the aircraft that flies from IAH)
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:59 am

h1fl1er wrote:
Why would all these airlines suddenly be interested in this frame when they were not in the base 35K? Extra range via increased tankage does not improve economics nor reduce the apparently excessive cost of the aircraft. Flying UULR is a niche endeavor.

It does improve the economics significantly.

Lets say the A350-1000 was flying with 50T of payload and burning 120T of fuel on a trip. A 5T MTOW increase might allow it carry say 4T of extra payload with 1T of extra fuel needed over the trip due to the higher flying weight.

50T payload over 120T of fuel burn is 2.4
54T payload over 121T of fuel burn is 2.24

That is a 7% improvementin fuel burn per unit of payload. Now the ULR might add a bit of weight. A 5T MTOW increase might only add 3T of payload as it might need 2T of extra fuel but it would still significantly improve economics.

The 280T A350-900 is far superior to the original 268T A350-900 when you calculate this way.
 
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Erebus
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:16 am

zeke wrote:
...and added the -1000 nose gear.


I always thought it was just the MLG that were different for the types. What differences are there between the -900 and -1000 nose gear?
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