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olle
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:10 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Pretty much every in depth analysis in the tech ops thread showed the 777-8 could fly 5t of extra payload between London and Sydney.

An extra 50 passengers can easily justify a greater trip fuel burn. I'm not sure what has changed to make the A350-1000 the front runner.

The fuel burn estimates were wrong?
The XWB is performing better than expected?
The 777-8 is overweight?
The A350-1000 is getting a bigger MTOW increase than expected?


This was what surprised me as well...

It is something in the card we donot see yet.

Another raise of A350 mtow up to 322-323 tons?

Cancelling further development on the A380 seems have given the effect that A350 and A320 got resources for development it perhaps did not have before.

I can even see the A350-2000 to be moved forward as sort of replacement for A380 with these increasment in mtow. It is something in the airbus strategy we still do not see.
 
WIederling
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:17 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Revelation wrote:


Now did this ever go beyond the drawing board? on par with the sonic cruiser as phantom projects go?
( Was the primary purpose dangling "cooperation" towards the Japanese industry? )


CFRP Sonic Cruiser fuselage trenches were producted in 2002 ...

Sure:
https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2002-07-24 ... r-Fuselage
sample for material testing. not much relates to the final product.
IMU the laminar flow test products flown by Airbus would be seen as much further along on the TR scale.
Murphy is an optimist
 
olle
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:18 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
if B777-9X wouldn't be superior on even a few ULR routes, why would Boeing develop it?


For the same reason Airbus continued with the A345/6 ... not knowing how good the 77W would be.

Best regards
Thomas



It is like Airbus has hold their cards to their chest until It was too late for Boeing. It is a chess game going on.

Time for popcorn!
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:19 pm

olle wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
Pretty much every in depth analysis in the tech ops thread showed the 777-8 could fly 5t of extra payload between London and Sydney.

An extra 50 passengers can easily justify a greater trip fuel burn. I'm not sure what has changed to make the A350-1000 the front runner.

The fuel burn estimates were wrong?
The XWB is performing better than expected?
The 777-8 is overweight?
The A350-1000 is getting a bigger MTOW increase than expected?


This was what surprised me as well...

It is something in the card we donot see yet.

Another raise of A350 mtow up to 322-323 tons?

Cancelling further development on the A380 seems have given the effect that A350 and A320 got resources for development it perhaps did not have before.

I can even see the A350-2000 to be moved forward as sort of replacement for A380 with these increasment in mtow. It is something in the airbus strategy we still do not see.


Doubt it about the -2000. The lack of momentum above a certain size really would not seem to justify the resources required to deliver it.

Airbus would have freed up resources from the A380 decision, at a time that Boeing is completely all hands on deck trying to rectify the issues with the MAX and 777X delays.

The A350 is a very capable platform that they seem to be able to continually find ways to maximise its potential, which is great to see.
 
olle
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:27 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
If B777-9X wouldn't be superior on even a few ULR routes, why would Boeing develop it?


Boeing won't have a problem making a frame that is slightly better at the absolute far edge of the payload-range envelope.

Their problem will be that it is worse at 99% of missions that don't require that capability.

Which then leaves them having a kerb appeal to very very few airlines (which may indeed operate a sub-fleet to meet that need).

The cost of development is then spread over relatively few frames (compared to the other aircraft that are better at 99% of missions) which enters a vicious circle of pushing unit cost up and reduced airframe orders.

We already can see what production volumes are doing in the A350 vs B787 unit cost - the difference between 789 and 359 (on a per seat basis) would become negligible if Airbus doubled their production rate if that rate followed rule of thumb cost efficiency improvements.



With the leeham article regarding 787 production rate it claims that if boeing do not sell a big quantity of 787 asap the production rate will go down. Then Boeing sit on 2 production facilities going on half speed and double cost. Airbus seems to have been more conservative in increasing production rate. That might have been an effect of the A380 and other management problems Airbus had last year.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:40 pm

IndianicWorld wrote:
For an airline like QF, the main benefit that I see for the A350-1000 as a whole is the versatility it could bring, compared to the larger, heavier 777X.

If the A350-1000ULR does meet the mission requirements, I do think that QF ordering the standard -1000 model would also be on the cards. It would then give it a fleet of the following:

A380 - likely retired around 2030 but will be used on high volume routes
A350 - Ultra Long haul and medium to longer haul destinations requiring extra lift from the 787
A330 - Likely to be retired by 2030 but medium haul and domestic
787 - Medium to long haul thinner routes

A fairly solid overall fleet, which will begin to see significant changes during the next decade.

The 777X is a great aircraft, but I don’t know if I see it being great for QF’s network as it continues to fragment its network. More destinations and frequency seems to be the way they are moving, which seems to fit the -1000 better overall IMHO.

I would add 797 to the list for medium haul and domestic.

IndianicWorld wrote:
Airbus would have freed up resources from the A380 decision, at a time that Boeing is completely all hands on deck trying to rectify the issues with the MAX and 777X delays.

The main issue with MAX is the financial impact, customer satisfaction and confidence. The people who do new airplane design aren't likely to be involved in the MAX fix. They also are largely done with their work for 777x since the -9 prototype is built, testing is delayed due to the engine issue, and the -8 is also now delayed due to management decision. Most of those people are working on 797 right now.

IndianicWorld wrote:
The A350 is a very capable platform that they seem to be able to continually find ways to maximise its potential, which is great to see.

I agree. The A350 seems to have captured a large part of the 772 replacement market and are moving in on the 773 market as well. The A350 enhancements are a wise investment.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
WIederling
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:47 pm

IndianicWorld wrote:
Airbus would have freed up resources from the A380 decision, at a time that Boeing is completely all hands on deck trying to rectify the issues with the MAX and 777X delays.


That afaics was a motivator behind having the A330CEO slog on and take much more time to ready the A350 ( XWB )
Looking at the timelines XWB was started in an environment where it was known that Boeing could not jump with the 787.
( Incidentally the A380 bashing here went ballistic around the same time when Boeing internal saw the 787 tsunami rising for good.)

777x delays could have an influence on Airbus planning ( if they have the same extended build up as the 787. ) I find it difficult to judge about the GE9x issues recentness ( "one morning in 2019" or "from the get go and stubbornly not succumbing to fixes". )

I don't see it with the MAX at all. that came out of the blue. Kind of a "Schrödinger Problem". Only after it comes to a cusp does it spring up with a fully developed backstory. .. except Airbus knew about MCAS ( and other NG to MAX birth deformities) early on. except ( cue the illuminated head guy in the third MIB movie.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:52 pm

olle wrote:
With the leeham article regarding 787 production rate it claims that if boeing do not sell a big quantity of 787 asap the production rate will go down. Then Boeing sit on 2 production facilities going on half speed and double cost. Airbus seems to have been more conservative in increasing production rate. That might have been an effect of the A380 and other management problems Airbus had last year.

The decision for Boeing to go from rate 11 to rate 14 per month on 787 was made with a lot more knowledge about the backlog and potential orders than you and I have.

Personally, I don't see the need to 'go conservative' if you have paying customers waiting for your product.

One theory goes that after Boeing burns off its backlog it will move all 787 production to CHS to take advantage of lower labor costs there and make room for the 797 in PAE.

It would also save money on Dreamlifter trips since CHS also sources major fuselage parts.

797 is said to feature a manufacturing transformation and will need less labor per plane built.

Also eventually the 777 will all be in one building rather than two so it will free up space for other things, maybe NSA?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
astuteman
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:54 pm

Revelation wrote:
IndianicWorld wrote:
Airbus would have freed up resources from the A380 decision, at a time that Boeing is completely all hands on deck trying to rectify the issues with the MAX and 777X delays.

The main issue with MAX is the financial impact, customer satisfaction and confidence. The people who do new airplane design aren't likely to be involved in the MAX fix. They also are largely done with their work for 777x since the -9 prototype is built, testing is delayed due to the engine issue, and the -8 is also now delayed due to management decision. Most of those people are working on 797 right now..


The only precaution I would offer to this sentiment is that the engineering bottlenecks are likely to occur in specific highly specialised areas, like the internal Engineering Authorisation/Regulation teams, rather than in the bulk numbers of designers.

It's a bit like the production rate.
It only takes galleys or seats to be late, and you can make as many fuselages, wings and engines as you like, but they ain't going into service.

I can well imagine the Safety Engineering teams at Boeing are absolutely buried at the minute.
Structural, Electrical, Mechanical, Propulsion, 3D integration - not so much.

Rgds
 
Gemuser
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:54 pm

From reply 299:
Pretty much every in depth analysis in the tech ops thread showed the 777-8 could fly 5t of extra payload between London and Sydney.
An extra 50 passengers can easily justify a greater trip fuel burn. I'm not sure what has changed to make the A350-1000 the front runner.

Easy. QF require delivery in 2022 for EIS early 2023. Boeing is delaying the 778 EIS by 2 years to 2025 at least. They can't wait an extra 2 years, that easily explaines it.

Gemuser
 
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:05 pm

astuteman wrote:
The only precaution I would offer to this sentiment is that the engineering bottlenecks are likely to occur in specific highly specialised areas, like the internal Engineering Authorisation/Regulation teams, rather than in the bulk numbers of designers.

It's a bit like the production rate.
It only takes galleys or seats to be late, and you can make as many fuselages, wings and engines as you like, but they ain't going into service.

I can well imagine the Safety Engineering teams at Boeing are absolutely buried at the minute.
Structural, Electrical, Mechanical, Propulsion, 3D integration - not so much.

Quite true. I can also imagine some are pretty burned out and wanting to take other opportunities. Yet their CEO is telling us the plane will RTS in Q4. Even if he's off by a quarter or so and even if there is a paper tail to chase as each regulator makes its considerations, the work seems to be bounded in time.

Gemuser wrote:
From reply 299:
Pretty much every in depth analysis in the tech ops thread showed the 777-8 could fly 5t of extra payload between London and Sydney.
An extra 50 passengers can easily justify a greater trip fuel burn. I'm not sure what has changed to make the A350-1000 the front runner.

Easy. QF require delivery in 2022 for EIS early 2023. Boeing is delaying the 778 EIS by 2 years to 2025 at least. They can't wait an extra 2 years, that easily explaines it.

Yet both QF and Boeing still push the story that Boeing is still a contender when they could have just said 'no comment'.

Personally I think Airbus has had the inside track the minute they found a way to handle the worst case requirement since their product is so compelling on non-ULA missions too.

It's no surprise that Airbus would pull out all the stops since they did the A345 ULA work and now have SQ flying A350 on ULA routes.

I think it is a big psychological win in general and particularly here on a.net for the presumed winner, Airbus.

However, if we're all wrong about that, it'll be a psychological boomerang for Airbus.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Opus99
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:06 pm

The A350-1000ULR I’m sure is going to be a fantastic aircraft. I’m sure airbus is giving it the best of the best seeing as the A380 is going out. The A350s potential can really come to life. I can see QR adding more to their fleet as well as other airlines looking to replace A380s
 
majano
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:14 pm

Revelation wrote:
I think it is a big psychological win in general and particularly here on a.net for the presumed winner, Airbus.

However, if we're all wrong about that, it'll be a psychological boomerang for Airbus.
[/quote]
I hardly ever agree with your opinions here, but you have hit the nail on the head with this. Here on A-net, the Airbus offering has been touted by many. Not that the 777-8 had no fans, but the A350's so-called 'flexibility' for the other missions has been hammerd home. If for any reason the "compelling offer" from Boeing wins the day, the A350 quarters of A-net will require fleet-footedness in explaining the loss.

Unrelated to the offering of either OEM, I see the AAIPA negotiations as some kind of get-out-of-jail card for QF. Zeke spoke of this right at the beginning and not many paid much attention. Now we hear some rumblings about pilot contracts emerging from sources close to the airline.
 
mig17
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:28 pm

majano wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I think it is a big psychological win in general and particularly here on a.net for the presumed winner, Airbus. However, if we're all wrong about that, it'll be a psychological boomerang for Airbus.

I hardly ever agree with your opinions here, but you have hit the nail on the head with this. Here on A-net, the Airbus offering has been touted by many. Not that the 777-8 had no fans, but the A350's so-called 'flexibility' for the other missions has been hammerd home. If for any reason the "compelling offer" from Boeing wins the day, the A350 quarters of A-net will require fleet-footedness in explaining the loss. Unrelated to the offering of either OEM, I see the AAIPA negotiations as some kind of get-out-of-jail card for QF. Zeke spoke of this right at the beginning and not many paid much attention. Now we hear some rumblings about pilot contracts emerging from sources close to the airline.


If Sunrise doesn't happen for whatever reason now, the true boomerang effect will be for Qantas. If there is really an ULH market, the negotiations are not a get-out-of-jail card but a risk for QF. They have to get the crews onboard.
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Sokes
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:35 pm

olle wrote:
I can even see the A350-2000 to be moved forward as sort of replacement for A380 with these increasment in mtow. It is something in the airbus strategy we still do not see.


A350-900.: 733 orders
A350-1000:180 orders
A350-2000: ?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:41 pm

mig17 wrote:
If Sunrise doesn't happen for whatever reason now, the true boomerang effect will be for Qantas. If there is really an ULH market, the negotiations are not a get-out-of-jail card but a risk for QF. They have to get the crews onboard.

True, but we can all see the economics of ULA are challenging already, and it won't be hard for the crew side to over play their hands in negotiation.

In the end that would mean less opportunity for the crews to earn some highly favorable trips (one flight with a lot of work hours is better than more flights with less hours per flight) to some choice destinations, and a hit to the long term health for the airline that pays them, because the VLA flights are really a chance for QF to gain separation from competitors.

AJ may be disappointed if Sunrise becomes Sunset, but either way he'll be getting a retirement package most if not all of us can only dream of.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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T4thH
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:44 pm

Sokes wrote:
olle wrote:
I can even see the A350-2000 to be moved forward as sort of replacement for A380 with these increasment in mtow. It is something in the airbus strategy we still do not see.


A350-900.: 733 orders
A350-1000:180 orders
A350-2000: ?


There is now no engine for the A350-2000. We will see first the A350-Neo, for which Airbus has already started to hire staff (designers and engineers) in Nov-2018 for their offices in Madrid and Toulouse.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-21/airbus-reveals-plans-for-all-new-narrow-body-re-engined-a350
And with luck, together with the A350 Neo, we will see a A350-2000 Neo. But for them, EIS will be around 2025 to 2027 (depending of the Neo family engine choice by Airbus).
With the end of the A380 program, there is now a new niche for the A350-2000 (Neo). But till now, I have not seen any reliable rumors of a A360-2000 Neo.
 
kevin5345179
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:53 pm

MPadhi wrote:
kevin5345179 wrote:
MPadhi wrote:

Why is it that Boeing have managed to implement laminar flow tails into production 787s since around 2015 but Airbus hasn't managed to?


same question for you
how come Airbus has BTV on A380 back in 2007 while Boeing's first plane to have BTE is 777X which won't EIS as early as next year
FBW will be another example

All about development choices .....


Interesting point. Still surprises me a little because BTV seems to be more a convenience thing whereas I assumed a laminar flow tail would reduce fuel burn by a reasonable amount.


Not necessary. I feel like BTV is a step to even more automated airplane. A path to single pilot or even pilotless.
 
Sokes
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:03 pm

T4thH wrote:
There is now no engine for the A350-2000.


When the B777 was introduced, who would have expected the performance of the yet to be introduced -300ER?
You may be right, but from the order book I would rather expect a A350-950 NEO with an A350-900 MTOW and wing and reduced range.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:26 pm

I'm quite skeptical about the prospects of an A350-1200 / A350-2000.

Such a frame would probably need to be close to 80 meters, and I wonder what modifications will need to be made to support rotation clearance at that length. Going to Type A+ doors will raise the exit limit from 440 to 480, which will probably be enough to cover the extra cabin area so they are saved from having to add overwing exits, which would have raised the engineering costs.

There would also be Time to Market and frame availability issues coming in behind the 777-9. As for the 777-9, much has been said about how that frame was optimized for the ME3 and Emirates especially, and it's not wrong. However, the frame is now appealing to other airlines - airlines that already have the A350-1000 in their fleet or on order. So airline fleet planners outside of the ME3 are seeing an advantage from the 777-9.

Zeke has stated pretty clearly that there is no current 777-300ER mission in the Cathay Pacific network that the A350-1000 cannot do with equal or better loads and at much lower operating costs. Cathay is now moving their 777-300ER fleet from 9-abreast to 10-abreast and two of the main reasons I think an airline would do that is to 1) reduce CASM (more seats lowers the trip costs per seat) and 2) increase RASM (since the extra seats add little to the overall trip cost, their incremental revenue even at low fare buckets should more than cover those costs).

zeke has also noted that one of the factors that favored the A350-900 over the 787-9 in their RFP was that the A350-900 offered a common Economy seat across the widebody fleet. A customer connecting from an A330-300 to an A350-900 or 777-300(ER) would have the exact same seat whereas if they connected to a 787-9, they would have a different seat. With Cathay now going 10-abreast on the 777-300(ER), those customers will now experience a different seat. If Boeing's claims are true, the 777-9 would have the same physical seat as the A330-300 and A350-900/1000 fleet so Cathay could return to a common Economy seat experience for their customers as the 777-300(ER) fleet is retired.

Next, let us look at Lufthansa. Here, the A340-600 fleet could easily be covered by the A350-1000 and the 747-400 fleet could (and likely originally would) have been replaced with the 747-8. Looking at their cabin reconfiguration, I am guessing the 747-400 fleet is now being employed on leisure routes with low(er) premium cabin demand so the 777-9's much lower operating costs would be an important factor and the frame is large enough to meet the large Economy Class cabin requirements.

Just looking at the fleet numbers, one could argue Singapore Airlines has chosen the 777-9 as their 777-300ER replacement, though the A350-1000 should arguably work as well for them in that role as it does for Cathay. Perhaps Singapore is also seeing the benefits of going to 10-abreast on the 777-300ER as Cathay has (?), yet would prefer to just go direct to the 777-9 with a common seat as their A330-300, A350-900 and A380-800 fleets. And of course, there is nothing preventing Singapore from eventually adding the A350-1000 to their fleet.

Lastly, that leaves us British Airways. They were late to the 777-300ER party and have on a number of occasions noted how it was a mistake waiting as long as they did to add the type. With a large fleet of 747-400 needing replacement, the 777-9 gives them a frame with the capacity they need and better comfort.

So will any or all of these airlines wait another 5-10 years (between development, certification and production slot availability) for an A350-1200/A350-2000 when they could have the 777-9 during that time earning them money and lowering their costs?

I am inclined to believe the answer is "no".
 
Opus99
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:20 pm

I think the A350-1000ULR will be everything Airbus can possibly do with the aircraft before the ultrafan comes out. I think it will give the 777-9 a run for its money, even more than it does now
 
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Erebus
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:29 pm

Stitch wrote:
I'm quite skeptical about the prospects of an A350-1200 / A350-2000.


I won't say that it will come as an addition to the family, but I do wonder if the -900 and -1000 will be slightly stretched later on.

I'm still convinced that Airbus will need a new mid-sized mid-long range replacement of the A330 at some point down the line.

Upsizing the current A350 members can give a little more space below to the new family while it "converts" some of the excess performance they will have gained as a result of using next gen. engines/improvements, into more cabin area.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:43 pm

Erebus wrote:
I'm still convinced that Airbus will need a new mid-sized mid-long range replacement of the A330 at some point down the line.


Between the A330neo and 787, that market is going to be pretty much filled for the next couple of decades so I don't see a need for Airbus to move the A350 down into that market. We know the A350-800 was meant for that role and the 787-8 and 787-9 successfully bracketed it out of existence, so Airbus did effectively the same thing by launching the A330-800 and A330-900.

And realistically, once the 787 receives a New Engine Option, that will very likely become available for the A330 at the same general time, as well. So Airbus will likely not need to launch an all-new airframe to remain competitive and they will not have the time-to-market delays then like they did with the A330neo that allowed the 787-8 to clean-up most of the A330-200 replacement and expansion market (leaving the A330-900 as the only really viable member of the family).


Opus99 wrote:
I think the A350-1000ULR will be everything Airbus can possibly do with the aircraft before the ultrafan comes out. I think it will give the 777-9 a run for its money, even more than it does now


If you can Ultrafan an A350-1000, you can Ultrafan a 777-9 and the 777-9 will be able to take a larger Ultrafan and as we know from the 737MAX / A320neo "technical discussions", fan size is not just everything, it is the only thing. :rotfl: :silly:
 
waly777
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:53 pm

Stitch wrote:
Erebus wrote:
I'm still convinced that Airbus will need a new mid-sized mid-long range replacement of the A330 at some point down the line.


Between the A330neo and 787, that market is going to be pretty much filled for the next couple of decades so I don't see a need for Airbus to move the A350 down into that market. We know the A350-800 was meant for that role and the 787-8 and 787-9 successfully bracketed it out of existence, so Airbus did effectively the same thing by launching the A330-800 and A330-900.

And realistically, once the 787 receives a New Engine Option, that will very likely become available for the A330 at the same general time, as well. So Airbus will likely not need to launch an all-new airframe to remain competitive and they will not have the time-to-market delays then like they did with the A330neo that allowed the 787-8 to clean-up most of the A330-200 replacement and expansion market (leaving the A330-900 as the only really viable member of the family).


Opus99 wrote:
I think the A350-1000ULR will be everything Airbus can possibly do with the aircraft before the ultrafan comes out. I think it will give the 777-9 a run for its money, even more than it does now


If you can Ultrafan an A350-1000, you can Ultrafan a 777-9 and the 777-9 will be able to take a larger Ultrafan and as we know from the 737MAX / A320neo "technical discussions", fan size is not just everything, it is the only thing. :rotfl: :silly:


Lol you took the words right out of my mouth, the 777 can also take an ultra fan if the 350 gets a NEO. I doubt that will happen anytime before the 2030s, the CFRP 350 and 787 i suspect will have much longer lives than their aluminium counterparts.
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
DCA350
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:21 pm

[/quote]

If you can Ultrafan an A350-1000, you can Ultrafan a 777-9 and the 777-9 will be able to take a larger Ultrafan and as we know from the 737MAX / A320neo "technical discussions", fan size is not just everything, it is the only thing. :rotfl: :silly:[/quote]

True but they are basically even now with the 777-9 having more modern engine tech. Once the engines are at parity the 777-9 will only have capacity as an advantage. We see how well that worked out for the A380 vs the 777W.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:30 pm

DCA350 wrote:
True but they are basically even now with the 777-9 having more modern engine tech. Once the engines are at parity the 777-9 will only have capacity as an advantage. We see how well that worked out for the A380 vs the 777W.


Well capacity does seem to be an advantage for Cathay and British Airways, and probably is for Singapore and Lufthansa.
 
tealnz
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:39 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Pretty much every in depth analysis in the tech ops thread showed the 777-8 could fly 5t of extra payload between London and Sydney.

An extra 50 passengers can easily justify a greater trip fuel burn. I'm not sure what has changed to make the A350-1000 the front runner.

The fuel burn estimates were wrong?
The XWB is performing better than expected?
The 777-8 is overweight?
The A350-1000 is getting a bigger MTOW increase than expected?


Yes, in terms of comparative capabilities and performance those are the key questions. Hopefully we'll get some clarity later this year if Qantas announce a Sunrise go-ahead.

But I don't think they necessarily help us on the front runner question. Pretty much every a.net discussion on Sunrise has started from the premise that it was all about Sydney-London. And to be sure, the threshold question was always going to be whether an airframe could do SYD/MEL-LHR with a commercially viable payload. Joyce has now said both bids can deliver that (presumably 250ish pax, with some seats blocked in Y).

But once it could meet the basic LHR requirement the 35K always looked likely to be more competitive in the calculation for the total fleet. As a lighter aircraft with lower capital cost and trip cost but with good payload on routes like DFW it was always going to look attractive against a 351t 778. We have to assume QF are looking at an eventual Sunrise fleet of 20+, with maybe a subfleet for the extreme routes (NYC and LHR). The 35K emerging as front runner doesn't come as a surprise if the decision is based on economics across the larger fleet.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:13 pm

Sokes wrote:
olle wrote:
I can even see the A350-2000 to be moved forward as sort of replacement for A380 with these increasment in mtow. It is something in the airbus strategy we still do not see.


A350-900.: 733 orders
A350-1000:180 orders
A350-2000: ?


I think that Airbus did not expect to see airlines order so many B779's, especially with their very own A350-1000 available as the perfect B77W replacement. In fact the B779 is outselling the A350-1000.
The standard A350-1000 is plenty capable in terms of range or payload-range. The market for the A350-1000ULR is limited.

So I think that if Airbus are going to offer a higher gross weight A350-1000, they should also add the A350-1100 simple stretch with less range and try to get as many B779 customers to defect to the A350-1100. If you look at how many B779 orders are from airlines that also operate A350 models...

Airbus has perfectly captured the B772 market, but they are starting to miss out on the B77W market.
Time to launch a A350-1000ULR/A350-1100 combo for deliveries starting in 2023.
The A350NEO won't be out until at least 2028 anyway, the other programs are all on track and design engineers need to be kept busy.
 
Opus99
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:30 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
olle wrote:
I can even see the A350-2000 to be moved forward as sort of replacement for A380 with these increasment in mtow. It is something in the airbus strategy we still do not see.


A350-900.: 733 orders
A350-1000:180 orders
A350-2000: ?


I think that Airbus did not expect to see airlines order so many B779's, especially with their very own A350-1000 available as the perfect B77W replacement. In fact the B779 is outselling the A350-1000.
The standard A350-1000 is plenty capable in terms of range or payload-range. The market for the A350-1000ULR is limited.

So I think that if Airbus are going to offer a higher gross weight A350-1000, they should also add the A350-1100 simple stretch with less range and try to get as many B779 customers to defect to the A350-1100. If you look at how many B779 orders are from airlines that also operate A350 models...

Airbus has perfectly captured the B772 market, but they are starting to miss out on the B77W market.
Time to launch a A350-1000ULR/A350-1100 combo for deliveries starting in 2023.
The A350NEO won't be out until at least 2028 anyway, the other programs are all on track and design engineers need to be kept busy.

Yes I agree. And I think that’s what airbus is trying to do till the A350NEO comes out. I think airbus is definitely pushing that I and I think that’s why they’re in discussion with multiple airlines instead of just QF
 
DCA350
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:35 pm

Stitch wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
True but they are basically even now with the 777-9 having more modern engine tech. Once the engines are at parity the 777-9 will only have capacity as an advantage. We see how well that worked out for the A380 vs the 777W.


Well capacity does seem to be an advantage for Cathay and British Airways, and probably is for Singapore and Lufthansa.


Yes because they are sticking to featuring F Class products. You can throw the ME3 and ANA in there as well.. But we know F is dying at many airlines and of the over 800 777Ws delivered, less than 50 have left their original airline. The replacement cycle still hasn't really started.. How many of those carriers will continue to feature a large F class? That decision will loom large on who ultimately wins the battle between the two.
Last edited by DCA350 on Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
RandWkop
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:36 pm

Stitch wrote:
Erebus wrote:
I'm still convinced that Airbus will need a new mid-sized mid-long range replacement of the A330 at some point down the line.


Between the A330neo and 787, that market is going to be pretty much filled for the next couple of decades so I don't see a need for Airbus to move the A350 down into that market. We know the A350-800 was meant for that role and the 787-8 and 787-9 successfully bracketed it out of existence, so Airbus did effectively the same thing by launching the A330-800 and A330-900.

And realistically, once the 787 receives a New Engine Option, that will very likely become available for the A330 at the same general time, as well. So Airbus will likely not need to launch an all-new airframe to remain competitive and they will not have the time-to-market delays then like they did with the A330neo that allowed the 787-8 to clean-up most of the A330-200 replacement and expansion market (leaving the A330-900 as the only really viable member of the family).


Opus99 wrote:
I think the A350-1000ULR will be everything Airbus can possibly do with the aircraft before the ultrafan comes out. I think it will give the 777-9 a run for its money, even more than it does now


If you can Ultrafan an A350-1000, you can Ultrafan a 777-9 and the 777-9 will be able to take a larger Ultrafan and as we know from the 737MAX / A320neo "technical discussions", fan size is not just everything, it is the only thing. :rotfl: :silly:


So the GE9x might not be in service until 2021 and your telling us BA could dump GE, in 2025, for the RR Ultrafan.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:07 pm

DCA350 wrote:
Yes because they are sticking to featuring F Class products. You can throw the ME3 and ANA in there as well.. But we know F is dying at many airlines and of the over 800 777Ws delivered, less than 50 have left their original airline. The replacement cycle still hasn't really started.. How many of those carriers will continue to feature a large F class? That decision will loom large on who ultimately wins the battle between the two.


It's not First - it's Economy. The world's 777-300ER fleet is moving from 9-abreast to 10-abreast even on airlines that were staunchly (or considered by a.net to be staunchly) against such a move on the grounds of passenger comfort. As I noted up-thread, I believe that is being driven by a desire to lower CASM and raise (incremental) RASM.

Now the A350-1000 lowers CASM just by being a much more efficient frame than the 777-300ER, but Airbus themselves are now talking about making 10-abreast a "viable" option on the A350-1000 and I believe that could be driven by Airbus seriously considering that the 777-9's innate larger capacity is a positive point for the frame even for customers who are A350 operators.

Airbus can close this "capacity gap" by going to 10-abreast, but at lower comfort which runs counter to their advertising philosophy (though they will just shift the "blame" to the airlines just as Boeing has done). They can also close it by stretching the A350 yet again, though the belief Airbus can bring such a frame to market in volume in only a handful of years is, IMO, overly optimistic.

Personally, I don't see Airbus needing to close that "capacity gap" in the near term. The A350-1000's benefits are clear and compelling as-is and operators are responding to them by purchasing the plane. The A350-1000 and 777-9 look to be more "complimentary" frames than competitive ones and even then, the number of airlines that need both are probably relatively few. So I do not believe it is at all a case that Airbus must offer a direct competitor to the 777-9 or miss out on a significant number of sales.

IMO, this is very much NOT an A340-600 / 777-300ER "winner takes (most) all" scenario. I believe it will be much more nuanced, with both OEMs playing to their respective strengths and using that to maximize their Average Sales Prices and not to try and cover each other as tightly as possible, which will just lower ASPs for both.



RandWkop wrote:
So the GE9x might not be in service until 2021 and your telling us BA could dump GE, in 2025, for the RR Ultrafan.


I'm saying that if the Ultrafan becomes super-compelling, Boeing can respond (though I do not believe Ultrafan will be customer-ready in 2025, anyway).

And one should not discount the money a 777-9 will earn and save over the years it would be in service before an UF A350-1000 would arrive.
 
Opus99
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:54 pm

RandWkop wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Erebus wrote:
I'm still convinced that Airbus will need a new mid-sized mid-long range replacement of the A330 at some point down the line.


Between the A330neo and 787, that market is going to be pretty much filled for the next couple of decades so I don't see a need for Airbus to move the A350 down into that market. We know the A350-800 was meant for that role and the 787-8 and 787-9 successfully bracketed it out of existence, so Airbus did effectively the same thing by launching the A330-800 and A330-900.

And realistically, once the 787 receives a New Engine Option, that will very likely become available for the A330 at the same general time, as well. So Airbus will likely not need to launch an all-new airframe to remain competitive and they will not have the time-to-market delays then like they did with the A330neo that allowed the 787-8 to clean-up most of the A330-200 replacement and expansion market (leaving the A330-900 as the only really viable member of the family).


Opus99 wrote:
I think the A350-1000ULR will be everything Airbus can possibly do with the aircraft before the ultrafan comes out. I think it will give the 777-9 a run for its money, even more than it does now


If you can Ultrafan an A350-1000, you can Ultrafan a 777-9 and the 777-9 will be able to take a larger Ultrafan and as we know from the 737MAX / A320neo "technical discussions", fan size is not just everything, it is the only thing. :rotfl: :silly:


So the GE9x might not be in service until 2021 and your telling us BA could dump GE, in 2025, for the RR Ultrafan.

I’m not saying anyone is dumping anything. the 777x is great. But I mean in the short term there’s only so much they can do with that body. Boeing is recycling an old plane and trying to make it compete and it’s pretty good. But there’s only so much they can do at this point with that aircraft. “Re-engineered hummer” if you will. The A350 has so much more potential and airlines will take on more, the more they see airbus continue to make improvements to it. The 777x is being sustained by one airline. Who I’m now sure might turn to the A350-1000ULR since the 777-8 order has been delayed. Who knows what else they’ve discussed on the 777x. But they’re scaling down their order. The 777x is fantastic but it’s potential is limited within that frame (its a heavy aircraft) and I’m sure airbus was able to deliver on project sunrise because the composite A350 just has so much more potential (at a cheaper price). And it’s flexibility as well is impressive. The 777-9 hasn’t come out yet, I don’t see it in the skies for a while to be perfectly honest. The FAA is going to go hard on it. So certifications will take time. Obviously that can only kick in when the engine is fixed. Boeing obviously likes to be unrealistically optimistic with time, so let’s really see what happens with that and if it really delivers as promised. It could well be great. But just not as great as one would’ve hoped.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:45 pm

Opus99 wrote:
The 777x is being sustained by one airline.


Except it really isn't. Emirates may currently have the bulk of frames on order with Qatar well behind, but you also have five other airlines in Europe and Asia that each have ~20 each on order, which is a decent size fleet and a UFO (probably Chinese) that has 10. And if they are Chinese, they are probably going to take more than 10, overall. And we're still early in the 777-300ER replacement phase, which will mean many more RFPs between the A350-1000 and 777-9 down the road. So I feel it is premature to write off (actually or rhetorically) the 777-9 at this point.


Opus99 wrote:
Who knows what else (Emirates) discussed on the 777x. But they’re scaling down their order.


They are said to be "renegotiating" and part of those negotiations is said to be a direct conversion on a per-frame basis from the 777X to the 787 family, but until a formal announcement is made, it's still speculation. And considering how often Emirates changes their mind, even if they do announce a direct 777X to 787 swap for a certain number of frames, until those 787s are actually on the tarmac at DXB and the money is in Boeing's bank account, I will retain a certain dose of skepticism.
 
olle
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:58 pm

Stitch wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
The 777x is being sustained by one airline.


Except it really isn't. Emirates may currently have the bulk of frames on order with Qatar well behind, but you also have five other airlines in Europe and Asia that each have ~20 each on order, which is a decent size fleet and a UFO (probably Chinese) that has 10. And if they are Chinese, they are probably going to take more than 10, overall. And we're still early in the 777-300ER replacement phase, which will mean many more RFPs between the A350-1000 and 777-9 down the road. So I feel it is premature to write off (actually or rhetorically) the 777-9 at this point.


Opus99 wrote:
Who knows what else (Emirates) discussed on the 777x. But they’re scaling down their order.


They are said to be "renegotiating" and part of those negotiations is said to be a direct conversion on a per-frame basis from the 777X to the 787 family, but until a formal announcement is made, it's still speculation. And considering how often Emirates changes their mind, even if they do announce a direct 777X to 787 swap for a certain number of frames, until those 787s are actually on the tarmac at DXB and the money is in Boeing's bank account, I will retain a certain dose of skepticism.



In my view ME3 has not the same attention from Airbus anymore. After Emirates threw them under the bus both with A350 and A380, in the end Emirates did not have negotiating power anymore at Airbus. If they do the same with Boeing and 777x neither will consider their needs before the other customers like the case has been the last few Years. They will still be important customers but they will not have veto over For example lufthansa, ba etc
 
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zeke
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:07 am

MPadhi wrote:
Interesting point. Still surprises me a little because BTV seems to be more a convenience thing whereas I assumed a laminar flow tail would reduce fuel burn by a reasonable amount.


BTV is a by product of the Runway Overrun Prevention System (ROPS).

The ROPS system dynamically looks at the position, weight, ground speed, temperature, slat & flap configuration, true and calibrated airspeed, wind, CG, deceleration rate etc to warn pilots when airborne or on the runway that the runway is too short for the or if the contamination on the runway is greater than expected reducing the deceleration rate.

This system would have for example prevented the recent 737 overrun in Florida, it would have alerted the pilots airborne due to their speed and wind to go around “runway too short go around”, and again on the ground as contamination was greater than planned, “maximum braking”.

It would have also prevented the EK 777 crash at DXB, the “dumb” system on the 777 just said they landed long go around, just looking at where the aircraft touched down, not what is in front. They touched down 1000 m into a 4100 m long runway. ROPS would have looked at the conditions, configuration, and position on the runway and said nothing as they still had 3100 m of runway (longer than most runways in the world, as even with 3100m the normal touchdown point is 400 m in making it equivalent to landing on a 3500 m runway).

That is the difference between dynamic active and passive landing performance monitoring.

As most incidents occur during landing, it totally makes sense to make an effort to improve safety in that phase of flight to save lives.

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Run ... ion_System
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strfyr51
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Re: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:15 am

TranscendZac wrote:
I can't imagine why anyone at this point would buy the 778 given the option to buy the A350-1000ULR except for perhaps fleet commonality and even then, I would imagine the A350-1000ULR would be significantly less expensive to operate offsetting the commonality part.

Has a model type ever been improved so consistently and quickly following EIS like the A350? It was already an excellent plane that Airbus has continued to find ways improve.

one factor will be prominent, Just how fuel efficient will the Rolls Royce engines Be as compared to the GE engines on the 777-8 and -9??
Has Rolls overcome their troubles?
 
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flee
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Re: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:35 am

strfyr51 wrote:
TranscendZac wrote:
I can't imagine why anyone at this point would buy the 778 given the option to buy the A350-1000ULR except for perhaps fleet commonality and even then, I would imagine the A350-1000ULR would be significantly less expensive to operate offsetting the commonality part.

Has a model type ever been improved so consistently and quickly following EIS like the A350? It was already an excellent plane that Airbus has continued to find ways improve.

one factor will be prominent, Just how fuel efficient will the Rolls Royce engines Be as compared to the GE engines on the 777-8 and -9??
Has Rolls overcome their troubles?

What problems does RR have to overcome with the Trent XWB? I am not aware that there are major problems with this engine.

The GE9X is delayed and we don't have any real world performance numbers to compare with the Trent XWB. So airlines will only be going on Boeing promises and performance guarantees if they buy the B778 now.
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:10 am

Stitch wrote:
I'm quite skeptical about the prospects of an A350-1200 / A350-2000.

Such a frame would probably need to be close to 80 meters, and I wonder what modifications will need to be made to support rotation clearance at that length.


~74m now 3m plug in front of and behind the wing would mean you are only dealing an extra 3m aft when you rotate, this doesn't seem like it should be a huge engineering issue. Bigger issue likely to be with TXWB, I understand from someone who worked on the program that room for growth on the -97 is limited [Zeke said that the -84 has recently gotten new mods certified but that seems to be for fuel burn not power?]

zeke wrote:
It would have also prevented the EK 777 crash at DXB, the “dumb” system on the 777 just said they landed long go around


OT but over 3 years and no final accident report on this.

flee wrote:
What problems does RR have to overcome with the Trent XWB? I am not aware that there are major problems with this engine.


There are not.

olle wrote:
In my view ME3 has not the same attention from Airbus anymore. After Emirates threw them under the bus both with A350 and A380, in the end Emirates did not have negotiating power anymore at Airbus. If they do the same with Boeing and 777x neither will consider their needs before the other customers like the case has been the last few Years. They will still be important customers but they will not have veto over For example lufthansa, ba etc


Agreed. But the ME3 threw Boeing under the bus by not ordering the 747-8i that had been given extreme range for them making it uneconomic for other airlines. The OEM's need to ween themselves off of ME3 mega orders as them come with strings.
BV
 
DenverTed
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:41 am

When do the GTF engines go into service on the A350 or 787? I would think 2030 at the earliest. And, do they even fit? If the A350 and 787 need taller landing gear to fit the larger fan engines, that is a whole other conundrum.
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:10 am

DenverTed wrote:
When do the GTF engines go into service on the A350 or 787? I would think 2030 at the earliest. And, do they even fit? If the A350 and 787 need taller landing gear to fit the larger fan engines, that is a whole other conundrum.


The plan is around 2025 for RR Ultrafan. They will fit on an A350
BV
 
tommy1808
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:43 am

DenverTed wrote:
When do the GTF engines go into service on the A350 or 787? I would think 2030 at the earliest. And, do they even fit? If the A350 and 787 need taller landing gear to fit the larger fan engines, that is a whole other conundrum.


Plenty of room on the A350 available, ground clearance is only 1-2 Inch more on the A350 than on the 787 depending on Engine, but the Engine also sits quite a bit lower relative to the wing.
The Advance/Ultrafan program was already on the way when Airbus made the A350, i would be surprised if that hadn´t been identified as growth potential.....

BoeingVista wrote:
Stitch wrote:
I'm quite skeptical about the prospects of an A350-1200 / A350-2000.

Such a frame would probably need to be close to 80 meters, and I wonder what modifications will need to be made to support rotation clearance at that length.


~74m now 3m plug in front of and behind the wing would mean you are only dealing an extra 3m aft when you rotate, this doesn't seem like it should be a huge engineering issue.


And the rear fuselage sits 5 inch higher than on the A346.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Sokes
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:45 am

Stitch wrote:
The A350-1000 and 777-9 look to be more "complimentary" frames than competitive ones
...
IMO, this is very much NOT an A340-600 / 777-300ER "winner takes (most) all" scenario.


You are good in language. Something like this I had in mind when I posted about A330/ B787/ A350/ B777 selling mostly one type each. I couldn't formulate it so clear.
B777-300ER was probably the last twin being so vastly superior to the competition. Now it's about fine tuning. And engine makers not messing up by gambling their wealth.


BoeingVista wrote:
... But the ME3 threw Boeing under the bus by not ordering the 747-8i that had been given extreme range for them making it uneconomic for other airlines. The OEM's need to ween themselves off of ME3 mega orders as them come with strings.


Why am I not surprised? Even though, can you expand and do you have a source?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
WIederling
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:01 am

Stitch wrote:
If you can Ultrafan an A350-1000, you can Ultrafan a 777-9 and the 777-9 will be able to take a larger Ultrafan and as we know from the 737MAX / A320neo "technical discussions", fan size is not just everything, it is the only thing. :rotfl: :silly:


777, Boeing and GE are hard linked. GE would have to produce an Ultrafan like engine first.
At the moment it looks like GE is very much invested in a non GTF but CMC rich application.
( similar disparity as with the NB engines.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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enzo011
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Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:04 am

RJMAZ wrote:
Lets do the math.

The 777-8 has a massive fuel capacity. The longer 777-9 with its fuel tanks fully filled can carry only 11t of payload or 100 passengers before hitting MTOW.

With 200 passengers the 777-8 would be able to have its fuel tank fully filled with 198,000litres of fuel. So it is simply exhanging passenger weight for fuel weight. The 777-8 is 8730nm with 384 passengers. Assuming 100kg per passenger and 8500kg fuel burn per hour. We gain an hour of range for every 85 passengers removed. An hour of range is 480nm based on the 777 cruise speed.

384 passenger = 8730nm
299 passengers = 9210nm
214 passengers = 9690nm
200 passengers = 9770nm

Even if we assume the fuel burn is 5% higher or we allocate 110kg weight per passenger the range is still above 9500nm. That is why the 777-8 can do London to Sydney completely standard. No extra fuel tank or MTOW increase is required.

The A350-1000 needs a significant increase in fuel capacity. The extra volume from the A350-900ULR is still not enough. It will need a complex ACT tank in the cargo hold. With the A350-1000's 155t empty weight and 200 passengers (20t) once you add the 124t of maximum fuel we are only at a takeoff weight of 299t. So it needs 20t of extra fuel or three LD3 containers worth of fuel. This is no simple upgrade.



How do you get 384 passengers in a 778? If the 77W in a three class configuration only has around 330 seats (EY - F,J and Y) with 10-abreast in Y, how do expect the 778 which is 4 meters shorter to have more passengers? So you will need to reduce your passenger assumptions and see how your calculations work out from there. I think a more realistic number for passengers in the 778 will be 300 in three classes.

So 300 passengers at 8700nm,
215 passenger = 9180nm

That is still short of the range required and the capacity is reduced as well. I see now why you somehow went with 384 passengers in the 778.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:04 am

strfyr51 wrote:
one factor will be prominent, Just how fuel efficient will the Rolls Royce engines Be as compared to the GE engines on the 777-8 and -9??
Has Rolls overcome their troubles?


You say this as though GE doesn't have problems of their own.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
hibtastic
Posts: 400
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:54 am

Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:16 am

Now the A380 is out of the picture, the shackles are well and truly off the A350 and the A350-1000 in particular.

The fact that the 1000 is now being pimped is no surprise at all.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 1441
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:21 am

Going to 10ab on the 77W indicates the planes are shifting to routes needing more capacity at less range. Possibly the A359 and 789 are covering the longer range routes in the fleet utilization. We keep getting updates on the comparative performance based on the annual orders placed. The A350 has received 41 orders in 16, 36 in 17, 40 in 18, and 19 so far this year. the B779 has received 0 orders in 16, 15 in 17, 0 in 18, and 18 so far this year. We will see how this plays out once the 779 is flying, there are usually bursts of orders as a model goes into service.
 
rheinwaldner
Posts: 1720
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:58 pm

Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:37 am

Stitch wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
True but they are basically even now with the 777-9 having more modern engine tech. Once the engines are at parity the 777-9 will only have capacity as an advantage. We see how well that worked out for the A380 vs the 777W.


Well capacity does seem to be an advantage for Cathay and British Airways, and probably is for Singapore and Lufthansa.

Even the A380 did better than convincing just four in that regard.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
RawSushi
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:02 am

Re: Rumor: Airbus to launch A350-1000ULR

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:55 am

Stitch wrote:
Perhaps Singapore is also seeing the benefits of going to 10-abreast on the 777-300ER as Cathay has (?), yet would prefer to just go direct to the 777-9 with a common seat as their A330-300, A350-900 and A380-800 fleets. And of course, there is nothing preventing Singapore from eventually adding the A350-1000 to their fleet.


SQ is not fitting any first class seats or suites on the A350s. It has only ever done so on the A380s and the 777s. At an order of 20 I'm guessing SQ's 777-9s are mainly for premium heavy routes and will be the only planes with suites after the A380s are retired. Hence I doubt SQ is going for the 777-9s for seating capacity in economy. That said, since they've already gone 9-abreast on the 787-10s they can probably fit the same seats to be 10 abreast on the 777-9s, but not sure if they want to do that on long-haul routes.
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