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strfyr51
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:42 pm

YIMBY wrote:
Next European clean-sheet should be a 100+ seated turboprop. How much that is Airbus, who knows?

Otherwise Airbus has no immediate need for clean-sheets, until there is a significant step in technology.

OR? Until BOEING Releases their next clean sheet airliner.. (just being real)
 
strfyr51
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:13 pm

JonesNL wrote:
I think the A220 is the replacement of the A320 in the long run, maybe with an A221 to replace the A321. They can stretch it several times to get the capacity and range they need. The A350 will be the bread and butter in the long range and high capacity with a shrink, stretch and ULR variants. The A330 will be phased out as it is already lacking orders. So, I thinkl the line-up will be as follows:

A220-100
A220-300
A220-500 (XLR)
A220-700 (XLR)
A221-500 (XLR)
A221-700 (XLR)
A350-800 (ULR)
A350-900 (ULR)
A350-1000 (ULR)
A350-2000 (ULR)



I think you're banking too much on the A220-xxx. the A320 series could be updated and improved with technology scaled down from the A350. I admit I have never seen the A220 up close and it well may be a VERY capable airplane. BUT! I have seen and worked on the A320 series for over 10 years before I retired and the ONLY thing the A320 needed? Was wiring Diagrams and Schematics the quality of Boeing's Diagrams and Schematics. Their TSM was pretty damn good and it held a LOT of pertinent information. should Airbus want to do anything? Take what they have and make it better, Then? Make their integration a lot more straight forward.
When we got the A320/A319 at United? The Airbus reps wanted us to build Airbus Specific teams of mechanics. We refused, and told them? If that's what you want? Then you need to come get these airplanes Tomorrow because THAT'S NOT going to happen! In Maintenance control? I worked the A320/A319/737/757/767 desks though I was a primary on the A320/A319. In Reality? the real difference is? What they call the different components and the variations between Boeing and Airbus's system integration. And? Airbus is pretty much Airbus up and down the line of models. I doubt the systems are that much different. The Hydraulic systems are variations on the Yellow Green and Blue systems. The electrical Busses? have no comparison between Boeing and Airbus. But the Avionics? Is pretty similar in character if you understand the architecture of either. Airbus needs to continue to improve on their systems because they're pretty damn good! Not Better or worse than Boeing's Just a little different. The A220? May or May Not be as good as Airbus' systems But I can tell you this?
I'd Bet they're not Better!! Airbus needs to build on what they've got because what they Have? Is pretty damn Good!
 
Sokes
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:55 am

ewt340 wrote:
Rather than going for 7 abreast config, they might as well go for 8 abreast config. Better efficiency per row and LD3 capability.
The perfect example would be A300-600. They sell as well as B767-300ER.


If cargo capacity isn't desired, why to go for widebody?
If cargo capacity is desired A330 cross section is perfect.
length airplanes:
A321: 44,5m
B757-200: 47,3 m
B757-300: 54,4 m

too long: B757-300:
Image
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_757#757-300

A310-300: 46,67 m
A300-600: 54,1m
A330-200: 58,8 m
A330-300: 63,7m

Too short: A310-300:
Image
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A310

That leaves us with a (I estimate) maximum length 51 m 6 abreast plane and a minimum length 52 m 8 abreast plane. The best selling B767-300 is 55 m long.
What if a route has daily customer demand in one direction in between A321 and B767-300 and the airline isn't interested in cargo?
While I have assumptions, I leave this question to be answered by somebody working for an airline.

You, Keesje and Mjoelnir are probably right. It may not be worth the action to design a separate 7 abreast type.
That leaves the question why Airbus doesn't go forward with a 52 m winged, shortened A330.

I ignored airport infrastructure in this discussion.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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PM
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:57 am

ewt340 wrote:
Rather than going for 7 abreast config, they might as well go for 8 abreast config. Better efficiency per row and LD3 capability.
The perfect example would be A300-600. They sell as well as B767-300ER.

Not really. The 767 sold far more and, tellingly, was still selling the passenger version long after Airbus had ceased producing even freighters.
 
ewt340
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:18 pm

PM wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Rather than going for 7 abreast config, they might as well go for 8 abreast config. Better efficiency per row and LD3 capability.
The perfect example would be A300-600. They sell as well as B767-300ER.

Not really. The 767 sold far more and, tellingly, was still selling the passenger version long after Airbus had ceased producing even freighters.


Actually if you read my previous comment again. I just mentioned B767-300ER, not all the B767. Only the -300ER became the best seller out of the family.

The only reason why A300-600 isn't here anymore is because airbus actually replaced it with A330 which became extremely successful, unlike B767 which doesn't have any replacement, B787 comes to mind but the capabilities are pretty different. Similar to B767-300ERF. The A300-600F is still extremely popular amongst cargo operators around the world today, with almost 200 of them still flying today. So clearly, there is a market for aircraft like A300-600.
 
ewt340
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:27 pm

Sokes wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Rather than going for 7 abreast config, they might as well go for 8 abreast config. Better efficiency per row and LD3 capability.
The perfect example would be A300-600. They sell as well as B767-300ER.


If cargo capacity isn't desired, why to go for widebody?
If cargo capacity is desired A330 cross section is perfect.
length airplanes:
A321: 44,5m
B757-200: 47,3 m
B757-300: 54,4 m

too long: B757-300:
Image
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_757#757-300

A310-300: 46,67 m
A300-600: 54,1m
A330-200: 58,8 m
A330-300: 63,7m

Too short: A310-300:
Image
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A310

That leaves us with a (I estimate) maximum length 51 m 6 abreast plane and a minimum length 52 m 8 abreast plane. The best selling B767-300 is 55 m long.
What if a route has daily customer demand in one direction in between A321 and B767-300 and the airline isn't interested in cargo?
While I have assumptions, I leave this question to be answered by somebody working for an airline.

You, Keesje and Mjoelnir are probably right. It may not be worth the action to design a separate 7 abreast type.
That leaves the question why Airbus doesn't go forward with a 52 m winged, shortened A330.

I ignored airport infrastructure in this discussion.


Well for starter, A330 is actually a stretched version of A300-600. So shortening it doesn't really make sense. They actually try to do it before but the finished products wasn't that good since its a shrink version which just resulted in penalty on fuel efficiency. They called it the -100/-500.

IF they designed a new 8-abreast aircraft with the length of 52m - 54m and a stretched version with a length of 58m - 60m then they could gain the widebody market segment nicely. This is the only one that make sense, make a smaller model and then stretched it for better fuel efficiency. They need to replace A330neo anyway. They can't keep re-engineering it.
 
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:49 pm

Sokes wrote:
If cargo capacity isn't desired, why to go for widebody?

Maybe we should ask the 240th passenger to get off an A321 or the 295th to get off a 757-300?
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Sokes
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:19 pm

Revelation wrote:
Sokes wrote:
If cargo capacity isn't desired, why to go for widebody?

Maybe we should ask the 240th passenger to get off an A321 or the 295th to get off a 757-300?


So these are my assumptions I talked about in my last post:
If daily demand exceeds the capacity of one narrowbody the airline could
a) send two narrowbodies every alternate day
b) send an A330 or B787 instead of a narrowbody every second day

I tend to option a). But I myself don't have a strong opinion in this.
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:32 pm

Sokes wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Sokes wrote:
If cargo capacity isn't desired, why to go for widebody?

Maybe we should ask the 240th passenger to get off an A321 or the 295th to get off a 757-300?


So these are my assumptions I talked about in my last post:
If daily demand exceeds the capacity of one narrowbody the airline could
a) send two narrowbodies every alternate day
b) send an A330 or B787 instead of a narrowbody every second day

I tend to option a). But I myself don't have a strong opinion in this.

QF's CEO said he was excited about NMA for the BNE-SYD-MEL triangle since it did offer quick turn around times and since he could not (a) generate slots at desirable times to increase frequency and (b) already had data on A330/B787 (not to mention A321) and found them lacking for such short runs. NMA was built for half the range of the long haul wide bodies and was sized based on the lower range so lower thrust and lower weight and lower landing fees etc.

Granted it's a pretty niche use case, but we could see others in similar positions, like some of the US east coast carriers with aging 757s etc.

Unfortunately time ran out on NMA, and the near term future of the airline industry makes any clean sheet a bad gamble right now.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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VRHNM
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:43 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
rjsampson wrote:
...Clean-sheet 777 competitor? Already in service.


Which aircraft do you place on this category?

The A350? No way. It can fly far but not with the same capacity (passengers and cargo). They do not have a competitor on this level because the A380 was much bigger and it is at an end.

The A350 has range but not capacity AND range like a B777


Strangely enough, some airlines have started to replace 777s with A350s on longhaul routes...
The A350 has been able to take on routes that were previously operated with the 777, CX has done so on several North American and European destinations already.
Just because the A350 carries slightly less doesn't make it a competitor against the 777.
 
ewt340
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:47 pm

So looking at types of aircrafts Airbus currently sells well (excluding A220-100, A319neo and A330-800neo which aren't selling as well). We could see where the void is. A310, A300-600 and A330-200 occupy those void for the MoM. The answers should lies there.



Image
Last edited by ewt340 on Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
KarlB737
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:51 pm

JonesNL wrote:
I think the A220 is the replacement of the A320 in the long run, maybe with an A221 to replace the A321. They can stretch it several times to get the capacity and range they need. The A350 will be the bread and butter in the long range and high capacity with a shrink, stretch and ULR variants. The A330 will be phased out as it is already lacking orders. So, I thinkl the line-up will be as follows:

A220-100
A220-300
A220-500 (XLR)
A220-700 (XLR)
A221-500 (XLR)
A221-700 (XLR)
A350-800 (ULR)
A350-900 (ULR)
A350-1000 (ULR)
A350-2000 (ULR)


How about a turboprop A120. Might there be merit for that since no smaller turboprops since the days of E-120, Saab 340, B1900 seem to be available.
 
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PM
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:43 pm

ewt340 wrote:
PM wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Rather than going for 7 abreast config, they might as well go for 8 abreast config. Better efficiency per row and LD3 capability.
The perfect example would be A300-600. They sell as well as B767-300ER.

Not really. The 767 sold far more and, tellingly, was still selling the passenger version long after Airbus had ceased producing even freighters.


Actually if you read my previous comment again. I just mentioned B767-300ER, not all the B767. Only the -300ER became the best seller out of the family.

The only reason why A300-600 isn't here anymore is because airbus actually replaced it with A330 which became extremely successful, unlike B767 which doesn't have any replacement, B787 comes to mind but the capabilities are pretty different. Similar to B767-300ERF. The A300-600F is still extremely popular amongst cargo operators around the world today, with almost 200 of them still flying today. So clearly, there is a market for aircraft like A300-600.

I read your comment very carefully and I was only comparing the A300-600 to the 767-300ER. It tidily outsold the A330-600 and kept selling long after Airbus had ceased delivery.

The "only" reason the A300 isn't still around...? We're ignoring the fact that no one was buying it? The A330 is and was a far more capable aircraft than the A300 - and designed to be so.

The A300-600F is extremely popular? You base that on the fact that lots are still flying. There are lots of MD-11s flying too but would you care to try and sell a new one?

The last A300s ordered were in 2005 - all cargo frames. The last passenger order was still further back. The market simply no longer wanted it.

"So clearly, there is a market for aircraft like A300-600." There is. That's why FedEx and UPS keep buying the 767-300F.
 
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:08 pm

PM wrote:
The "only" reason the A300 isn't still around...? We're ignoring the fact that no one was buying it? The A330 is and was a far more capable aircraft than the A300 - and designed to be so.

The A300-600F is extremely popular? You base that on the fact that lots are still flying. There are lots of MD-11s flying too but would you care to try and sell a new one?

The last A300s ordered were in 2005 - all cargo frames. The last passenger order was still further back. The market simply no longer wanted it.

"So clearly, there is a market for aircraft like A300-600." There is. That's why FedEx and UPS keep buying the 767-300F.

And if you remember the commentary of the time, UPS was said to have ordered A380F to get out from under A300F it no longer wanted ( it dropped its order of 90 to 53 A300s as a part of the A380F deal, many of which were already delivered ) and was the last to get out from A380F when Airbus "postponed" it, presumably due to difficult negotiations with Airbus to recover deposits.

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ups- ... 6020070223
Ref: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelgol ... rbus-a380/
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ewt340
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:35 pm

PM wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
PM wrote:
Not really. The 767 sold far more and, tellingly, was still selling the passenger version long after Airbus had ceased producing even freighters.


Actually if you read my previous comment again. I just mentioned B767-300ER, not all the B767. Only the -300ER became the best seller out of the family.

The only reason why A300-600 isn't here anymore is because airbus actually replaced it with A330 which became extremely successful, unlike B767 which doesn't have any replacement, B787 comes to mind but the capabilities are pretty different. Similar to B767-300ERF. The A300-600F is still extremely popular amongst cargo operators around the world today, with almost 200 of them still flying today. So clearly, there is a market for aircraft like A300-600.

I read your comment very carefully and I was only comparing the A300-600 to the 767-300ER. It tidily outsold the A330-600 and kept selling long after Airbus had ceased delivery.

The "only" reason the A300 isn't still around...? We're ignoring the fact that no one was buying it? The A330 is and was a far more capable aircraft than the A300 - and designed to be so.

The A300-600F is extremely popular? You base that on the fact that lots are still flying. There are lots of MD-11s flying too but would you care to try and sell a new one?

The last A300s ordered were in 2005 - all cargo frames. The last passenger order was still further back. The market simply no longer wanted it.

"So clearly, there is a market for aircraft like A300-600." There is. That's why FedEx and UPS keep buying the 767-300F.


I don't think you understand my point completely.
The main reason why A300-600 isn't as viable as B767-300ER is because Airbus created a more capable A330 as a replacement for it. B767-300ER got no such replacement.

Also, both A300 and B767-300ER sold more than 550 frames each.

My main point is the fact that market for aircraft the size of A300-600 (8-abreast config) is viable, all they need is to add more range and capability. If there is a possibility for a clean-sheet 7-abreast MoM. Then there is definitely a bigger possibility for 8-abreast MoM.

When I said there is a market for A300-600. I mean a market for 8-abreast MoM with similar size as A300-600. Not specifically a 1-to-1 replacement for A300-600.
 
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:20 am

ewt340 wrote:

I don't think you understand my point completely.


With respect, I think I do.

ewt340 wrote:
The main reason why A300-600 isn't as viable as B767-300ER is because Airbus created a more capable A330 as a replacement for it. B767-300ER got no such replacement.


Uh? The A300-600 became less viable than the 767-300ER because the A330 came along? The A330 changed the specs of the A300-600?

ewt340 wrote:

Also, both A300 and B767-300ER sold more than 550 frames each.



Now you're really clutching at straws by comparing ALL A300s built (561) with just the 767-300ER (583 pax + 224 F = 807).
ewt340 wrote:

My main point is the fact that market for aircraft the size of A300-600 (8-abreast config) is viable, all they need is to add more range and capability. If there is a possibility for a clean-sheet 7-abreast MoM. Then there is definitely a bigger possibility for 8-abreast MoM.

When I said there is a market for A300-600. I mean a market for 8-abreast MoM with similar size as A300-600. Not specifically a 1-to-1 replacement for A300-600.


Could well be. I was simply pointing out that your statement about the A300-600 holding its own against the 767-300ER was way off. For every A300-600 sold, Boeing sold 2.5 767-300ER/F.

The 767-300ER/F (which is still selling) has almost outsold ALL variants of the A300/A310.

Boeing sold 583 pax 767-300ER from March 1987 to Feb 2012

Boeing sold 224 767-300F from January 1993 to Feb 2020

TOTAL 807

Airbus 816 ALL A300 and A310

Airbus 561 ALL A300

Airbus 313 ALL A300-600 (pax & F) delivered 1983 - 2007

PS. I'm a huge fan of both planes and have enjoyed flights on the 767-300ER (Air New Zealand, Delta, British Airways, Kenya Airways, KLM, and Condor) and on the A300-600 (Lufthansa, JAL, and Thai).
 
Sokes
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:23 pm

length/ range Wikipedia:
A300-600: 54,1 m, 4050 nm
A330-200: 58,8 m, 7250 nm
A330-300: 63,7 m, 6,350 nm
B767-300ER: 55,0 m, 5,980nm

Wikipedia MOM states it's planned for less than 4500 nm. Is it true?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_of_the_market

I agree with PM that the A300-600 didn't sell as long as B767. I conclude that 4000 nm is rather not enough range. That doesn't mean that eight abreast is bad.
Suppose one puts a 52 m wing on an 58,8 m A330-200. What range?
Suppose same wing on a shortened 54,1 m (=A300-600 length) version: what range?

I understand the slot restriction argument. I doubt it justifies the development of a new type.
I believe Airbus doesn't put a smaller wing on the A330 as it would force Boeing to act. That's not in the interest of the A321. It's better for Airbus if Boeing uses profits for share buybacks.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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keesje
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:18 pm

Sokes wrote:
length/ range Wikipedia:
A300-600: 54,1 m, 4050 nm
A330-200: 58,8 m, 7250 nm
A330-300: 63,7 m, 6,350 nm
B767-300ER: 55,0 m, 5,980nm

Wikipedia MOM states it's planned for less than 4500 nm. Is it true?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_of_the_market

I agree with PM that the A300-600 didn't sell as long as B767. I conclude that 4000 nm is rather not enough range. That doesn't mean that eight abreast is bad.
Suppose one puts a 52 m wing on an 58,8 m A330-200. What range?
Suppose same wing on a shortened 54,1 m (=A300-600 length) version: what range?

I understand the slot restriction argument. I doubt it justifies the development of a new type.
I believe Airbus doesn't put a smaller wing on the A330 as it would force Boeing to act. That's not in the interest of the A321. It's better for Airbus if Boeing uses profits for share buybacks.



I guess the A310-200 came close to those specs, something like that with composite wings, new engines etc comes close to the old NMA spec.

At some point Airbus also has to find something above the biggest NB's but way more effficient than the over capable A338/A358 like aircraft

Probably somethink all new, optimized for up to 5000NM, up to 300 seats stretched, but no heavier than 80t empty. Not 120t like an A330 or 787.

Image
source keesje, https://s.s-bol.com/imgbase0/imagebase3 ... 314397.jpg
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:22 pm

ewt340 wrote:
So looking at types of aircrafts Airbus currently sells well (excluding A220-100, A319neo and A330-800neo which aren't selling as well). We could see where the void is. A310, A300-600 and A330-200 occupy those void for the MoM. The answers should lies there.



Image


I am commenting on the chart, not any ewt nor anyone else's comments. What is lacking in all of the charts such as this, is overly simplified ovals. We need three ovals for each model of each plane.

First, the primary passenger/range
Second, modestly abused passenger/range
Third, moderately abused passenger range

This is how airlines actually use their various planes. It may involve repositioning, crew scheduling, seasonal changes, what plane they have to spare, taxes, maintenance scheduling - I understand thousands of people on computers balance all of these contingencies. We need at least 3 ovals for each model to pick up the most important way planes are used.
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Sokes
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:37 pm

keesje wrote:
At some point Airbus also has to find something above the biggest NB's but way more effficient than the over capable A338/A358 like aircraft

Probably somethink all new, optimized for up to 5000NM, up to 300 seats stretched, but no heavier than 80t empty. Not 120t like an A330 or 787.

Image
source keesje, https://s.s-bol.com/imgbase0/imagebase3 ... 314397.jpg


Please check the source of your drawing.

I didn't compare OEW yet. Thanks for the hint.
OEW of A300-600 is 81,7 t.
OEW of A321Neo is 50,1 t.

The A321 XLR has 4700nm range. Pretty much as desired.
Capacity of the A300 seems 44% more.(285 x 34 inch) / (240 x 28 inch) = 1,44. However OEW is 63% more. It looks like A300-600 length is not enough to compete with A321 XLR.
Stick with A330-200 and a shorter wing? Is it worth the action? Is it middle of market considering capacity?
B767-300ER has an OEW of 90t. That's roughly 80% more than A321 for 10,5 m extra length. That's not good enough.
As I said earlier: Why to have a widebody if no cargo is desired?

If Boeing moves first Airbus will just attach a longer wing on A321 or a shorter wing on A330. If they already design a new wing, Airbus can still add a few meter to the length of the A321.
If Airbus moves first Boeing will design a new plane. I agree Boeing is somehow in a disadvantage and forced to move. But maybe there is just no way Boeing can win this.
Maybe Bombardier is interested to design a six abreast narrowbody with 120 t MTOW?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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keesje
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:10 pm

Sokes wrote:
keesje wrote:
At some point Airbus also has to find something above the biggest NB's but way more effficient than the over capable A338/A358 like aircraft

Probably somethink all new, optimized for up to 5000NM, up to 300 seats stretched, but no heavier than 80t empty. Not 120t like an A330 or 787.

Image
source keesje, https://s.s-bol.com/imgbase0/imagebase3 ... 314397.jpg


Please check the source of your drawing.

I didn't compare OEW yet. Thanks for the hint.
OEW of A300-600 is 81,7 t.
OEW of A321Neo is 50,1 t.

The A321 XLR has 4700nm range. Pretty much as desired.
Capacity of the A300 seems 44% more.(285 x 34 inch) / (240 x 28 inch) = 1,44. However OEW is 63% more. It looks like A300-600 length is not enough to compete with A321 XLR.
Stick with A330-200 and a shorter wing? Is it worth the action? Is it middle of market considering capacity?
B767-300ER has an OEW of 90t. That's roughly 80% more than A321 for 10,5 m extra length. That's not good enough.
As I said earlier: Why to have a widebody if no cargo is desired?

If Boeing moves first Airbus will just attach a longer wing on A321 or a shorter wing on A330. If they already design a new wing, Airbus can still add a few meter to the length of the A321.
If Airbus moves first Boeing will design a new plane. I agree Boeing is somehow in a disadvantage and forced to move. But maybe there is just no way Boeing can win this.
Maybe Bombardier is interested to design a six abreast narrowbody with 120 t MTOW?


You can't only compare lenght, width sets capacity too & cargo capability. The sketch above is mine, as I indicate. Picture is of a keesje

The concept tries to reduce typical long single aisle disadvantages while retaining it's efficiencies.

Image
source: keesje
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seahawk
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:35 pm

Why on earth should Airbus do this? The A321XLR with the 101t MTOW allows them a A322 and even without it they have competitive products in the whole single aisle segment. If Boeing is in a position to launch a new plane and if airlines are even interested is more doubtful than ever today. It is not 2019 any more, things have dramatically changed and nobody can yet say for how long and in what way.
 
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:08 pm

This A370 would be launched later this decade, when A330 replacement market is more clear and suitable engines are developed.
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Sokes
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:09 pm

@Keesje:
O.k., when I open the link to the source of the side view drawing A370 I get this:
Image

I believe for wings double the length means four times the lift, but eight times the material to build it.
Add to it that seats/ aisle area is unbeatable in a 6-abreast plane.
The advantage of widebodies is cargo. Some days seats remain empty. The airline can adjust with cargo. And then there is economy of scale in engine maintenance.
I believe CFM 56 is great for durability. It isn't meant for long range. IIRC for longer range the IAE V2500 was chosen. The bypass ratio is around 5. The success of widebodies so far may have been based on the lack of suitable engines and too short wings for longer ranges on narrowbodies.

I know about your 1,5 aisle concept. Seats/ aisle area is same as eight abreast, but it fits 4 business class seats in 1+2+1. Are you sure a full-slim passenger (at times Germans can beat Americans in political correctness) and a trolley fit next to each other? An airline may offer broader armrests and cheaper price for those economy passengers who don't need food during the flight. If there are no trolleys there is no need for a broader aisle.
Did you spend thought how business class seats would look like? Is the lower deck high enough for the wing box?
But I agree, where business class is desired, I believe 1,5 aisle is a very good idea. Now we just need to wait for the engines.

The A321XLR already will have 4700 nm range. I believe you can add some range to your concept. Moreover I wonder if it isn't the right concept for transpacific flights. Cargo better makes a stop in Anchorage.

If Airbus or Boeing build such a plane, how would it affect demand for their widebodies?
Maybe the Chinese could do it. Probably by the time they get ready an export prohibition for engines would be enacted in the West. I guess the experience of Bombardier must have been a lesson to all potential competitors that nobody threatens Boeing unpunished.
Or, to be more precise, nobody beside the Boeing management.
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Grizzly410
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:12 am

For me the answer to What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft? is the A320 successor, and is far, far away in the future.

First COVIF crisis will have to be dusted before making any assessment on the market, the whole industry will take a big hit, but can't see how it could shift the equilibrium anyway.
Hard time will come and bite hard, of course, but Airbus line up isn't exactly outdated, as far as nobody comes on a segment with a new product they are not under threat. As no Engine manufacturer have a promising tech avail just around the corner, it's even more comfortable. Easily 4 years to be mind free on this aspect.

Therefore I think we'll continue to see continuous development in the near future. A new wing for the A320 serie (helped in its business case by the Brexit burden for Filton + Spanish Puerto Real plant low cost base and experience), for an obvious A322, a possible super ranged A321 and, why not a people mover A323 if market needs it then. Depending on the need too, that would then open the door to the A250..
In the meantime A330 will simply finish its career more or less like it is, and A350 get closer to its neo version.

With this in mind I barely can see an Airbus clean sheet anounced around 2028................... And I see it as the A320 successor, in the sense it will try to plug the market between the A220&A350 serie.
I won't go in the technical question often mentionned in various thread, it's not yet time to evaluate if a 6-7-8 abreast, ovoid or blended wing or even double decker makes sense, plenty time to figure this out and bring new tech and needs into the equation.
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:34 am

8ab, Somewhere between A310 and A300 in size but with composite body/wings and new engines, 5000nm range <90T.

How much would such a A310.5NEO project cost?
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flyinggoat
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:19 am

I think the next all-new aircraft from Airbus will be an 8 abreast wide body smaller than the A330-900. The initial model would be slightly smaller than an A300, with a stretched model slightly longer than an A330-800. Range would be less than the A330, maybe around 5-6000nm.

Before that happens, I believe we will see the A220-500. I also think there's a good chance we will see another iteration of the A320 beyond the NEO, and if that happens, I believe there will be a good chance we will see the A322. A combination of A322 and A370-800 will fill that MOM gap at both the low end and high end well.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:26 am

keesje wrote:
This A370 would be launched later this decade, when A330 replacement market is more clear and suitable engines are developed.


Obviously the next project will be the A330 successor, it just might look totally different than your concept. Because as off today nobody can say what airlines will want in 5 years. I think the crisis showed that cutting down on cargo capacity can be a huge mistake.
 
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keesje
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:31 am

seahawk wrote:
keesje wrote:
This A370 would be launched later this decade, when A330 replacement market is more clear and suitable engines are developed.


Obviously the next project will be the A330 successor, it just might look totally different than your concept. Because as off today nobody can say what airlines will want in 5 years. I think the crisis showed that cutting down on cargo capacity can be a huge mistake.


Totally diffrent from my concept? how could that be possible, how dare they :wink2:


Sokes wrote:
@Keesje:
O.k., when I open the link to the source of the side view drawing A370 I get this:
...

I believe for wings double the length means four times the lift, but eight times the material to build it.
Add to it that seats/ aisle area is unbeatable in a 6-abreast plane.
The advantage of widebodies is cargo. Some days seats remain empty. The airline can adjust with cargo. And then there is economy of scale in engine maintenance.
I believe CFM 56 is great for durability. It isn't meant for long range. IIRC for longer range the IAE V2500 was chosen. The bypass ratio is around 5. The success of widebodies so far may have been based on the lack of suitable engines and too short wings for longer ranges on narrowbodies.

I know about your 1,5 aisle concept. Seats/ aisle area is same as eight abreast, but it fits 4 business class seats in 1+2+1. Are you sure a full-slim passenger (at times Germans can beat Americans in political correctness) and a trolley fit next to each other? An airline may offer broader armrests and cheaper price for those economy passengers who don't need food during the flight. If there are no trolleys there is no need for a broader aisle.
Did you spend thought how business class seats would look like? Is the lower deck high enough for the wing box?
But I agree, where business class is desired, I believe 1,5 aisle is a very good idea. Now we just need to wait for the engines.

The A321XLR already will have 4700 nm range. I believe you can add some range to your concept. Moreover I wonder if it isn't the right concept for transpacific flights. Cargo better makes a stop in Anchorage.

If Airbus or Boeing build such a plane, how would it affect demand for their widebodies?
Maybe the Chinese could do it. Probably by the time they get ready an export prohibition for engines would be enacted in the West. I guess the experience of Bombardier must have been a lesson to all potential competitors that nobody threatens Boeing unpunished.
Or, to be more precise, nobody beside the Boeing management.


This A370 concept is significantly wider than e.g. a A320. Passengers 6 abreast could have idividual armrest and the middle seat could be wider than the window & aisle seat. The aisle could be 30 inch, 10-12 inch wider than a regular aisle for the passengers to ba able to pass carts, each other. The aft galley area has no toilet because part of it can be isolated as a crew rest for 2 CA's.

The added width for the aisle and seats creates space for 4 wide seats and 2 19 inch aisles in front. A generous 2-2 or even 1-1-1 is also an option.

The first sketch was A370-800 has a more typical 231 seats 3 class medium rane configuration for flight > 6 hrs. This -900 stretch version has a more leisure kind of single class cabin, seat >300 passengers. At that point you really need a wide aisle during boarding / de-boarding but also during flight. If people can't pass each other, bump each other during flight in the aisle things can get real uncomfortable.

Image
source: keesje

The idea of this cocept would be to extend NB reach up to 300 seats and 5000NM, while reducing/ eliminating disadvantages such as reduced comfort and waiting time/ mobility issues of typical current long NB's. If such an aircraft could be made weighing less than 80t (OEW), that is 30% less than typical WB's reducing operating costs in every area.
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:45 am

keesje wrote:
seahawk wrote:
keesje wrote:
This A370 would be launched later this decade, when A330 replacement market is more clear and suitable engines are developed.


Obviously the next project will be the A330 successor, it just might look totally different than your concept. Because as off today nobody can say what airlines will want in 5 years. I think the crisis showed that cutting down on cargo capacity can be a huge mistake.


Totally diffrent from my concept? how could that be possible, how dare they :wink2:


I am myself surprised how quickly change can come. If I look back at the early days of video conferencing instead of flying everybody, was against it. "We need to shake hands." "We need to be close to the customer..." 4 weeks later. "Video conferencing is awesome. I can talk to the customer when he wants and I can even do it at home" "I get to spent so much more time with my family..." and budgeting going "we are saving so much on travel expenses, we can get everybody a laptop and pay for a 100Mbit connection at home..." This is not going to bounce back to the way it was.
 
Noshow
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:16 am

Video might be good for very routine business meetings but not for the real personal touch and negotiation and for more confidential matters. There is a lot of room left for travel. But travel has become very uncomfortable, long lines, luggage limits, no seat space, no service, high prices for everything. This is where airlines and airports can stimulate demand after some fat years.
 
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:26 am

seahawk wrote:
keesje wrote:
seahawk wrote:

Obviously the next project will be the A330 successor, it just might look totally different than your concept. Because as off today nobody can say what airlines will want in 5 years. I think the crisis showed that cutting down on cargo capacity can be a huge mistake.


Totally diffrent from my concept? how could that be possible, how dare they :wink2:


I am myself surprised how quickly change can come. If I look back at the early days of video conferencing instead of flying everybody, was against it. "We need to shake hands." "We need to be close to the customer..." 4 weeks later. "Video conferencing is awesome. I can talk to the customer when he wants and I can even do it at home" "I get to spent so much more time with my family..." and budgeting going "we are saving so much on travel expenses, we can get everybody a laptop and pay for a 100Mbit connection at home..." This is not going to bounce back to the way it was.


Everybody is discussing, trying to see longer term trends. I guess flight will restore, e.g. more Asians want to see the world.. But things might indeed be changing. Everybody is in a steep, forced learning curve. I doubt everybody will be working at home form now, but the resistance against e.g. working 2 days a week from home for larger groups of people might have been reduced.

Leeham has a depressing article this morning: https://leehamnews.com/2020/04/07/hotr- ... -7-months/

Back to topc, if longer term demand declines, smaller long haul aircraft might become attractive for more city pairs.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:14 am

keesje wrote:
seahawk wrote:
keesje wrote:

Totally diffrent from my concept? how could that be possible, how dare they :wink2:


I am myself surprised how quickly change can come. If I look back at the early days of video conferencing instead of flying everybody, was against it. "We need to shake hands." "We need to be close to the customer..." 4 weeks later. "Video conferencing is awesome. I can talk to the customer when he wants and I can even do it at home" "I get to spent so much more time with my family..." and budgeting going "we are saving so much on travel expenses, we can get everybody a laptop and pay for a 100Mbit connection at home..." This is not going to bounce back to the way it was.


Everybody is discussing, trying to see longer term trends. I guess flight will restore, e.g. more Asians want to see the world.. But things might indeed be changing. Everybody is in a steep, forced learning curve. I doubt everybody will be working at home form now, but the resistance against e.g. working 2 days a week from home for larger groups of people might have been reduced.

Leeham has a depressing article this morning: https://leehamnews.com/2020/04/07/hotr- ... -7-months/

Back to topc, if longer term demand declines, smaller long haul aircraft might become attractive for more city pairs.


Yes, but we do not even know how the traffic will come back. I can see touristic travel come back quickly, as it can be stimulated by low prices and there is no real alternative to visiting a place for that purpose. But how business traffic will develop we will have to see. Imho first class travellers could increasingly swing to private jets, as it means you have only a known group of persons in the plane and immigration can also be handled in smaller groups. Business travellers could decide to fly less and if immigration takes longer, the "sleep on the plane - work - fly back" tactic might no longer work. So maybe the demand for full lie flat business class seats might be reduced in favour of more direct flights, as you would want to fly as little as possible. This could make the A321XLR a real superior choice. But we could also see a demand for completely closed of suites which even bigger distances to each other. That would favour the wide body. It is impossible to say which will happen.
 
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:40 am

Leisure traffic will bounce back first. Most of Northern and Central Europe is still shit cold and dark and rainy most of the year and people have 25-30 vacation days. They're gonna wanna travel 1, 2, 3 times a year again.

Business travel to a certain extend too, but I see that going down in the mid-manager-levels (the Econ/PremEcon crowd) as most of those non-deal talks can be done without 3D in-person meets.
 
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:16 pm

Sokes wrote:
length airplanes:
A321: 44,5m
B757-200: 47,3 m
B757-300: 54,4 m

too long: B757-300:
Image
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_757#757-300




keesje wrote:
This A370 concept is significantly wider than e.g. a A320.
...
The first sketch was A370-800 has a more typical 231 seats 3 class medium rane configuration for flight > 6 hrs. This -900 stretch version has a more leisure kind of single class cabin, seat >300 passengers. At that point you really need a wide aisle during boarding / de-boarding but also during flight. If people can't pass each other, bump each other during flight in the aisle things can get real uncomfortable.

Image
source: keesje

The idea of this cocept would be to extend NB reach up to 300 seats and 5000NM....
If such an aircraft could be made weighing less than 80t (OEW), that is 30% less than typical WB's reducing operating costs in every area.


Your fuselage is 178 inch = 4,45 m diameter. That's 50 cm wider and 31 cm higher than an A321 fuselage. Can it compete with the A321?
The A321 has an OEW of 51 t, your idea an OEW approaching 80 t. I also wonder if 60 m length isn't stretched too much.

I believe the question is what is better:
a) An A321 with a 45 m wing plus a five meter stretch, both MTOW of 120 t. The five meter stretch would be two meter longer than B757-200, but five meter shorter than B757-300. Probably I imagine this too easy. Which leaves us with b).
b) If one increases A321 fuselage width by 30 cm and height by 11 cm one gets a circular fuselage of 4,25 m diameter. Maybe height should also be increased by 30 cm for a bigger wing box. I believe fuselage diameter increase has to be limited to 30 cm, fuselage length can be maybe 3,5 meter longer.
Let's say three types: A321 length (44,5 m), a five meter stretch (49,5 m) and another model with a further 5 m stretch (=B757-300 length = 54,4 m). I doubt OEW would reach 80 t. B757-300 had 64,3 t OEW.

Somebody once mentioned that one tyre supports only 30 t. That may limit a narrowbody with usual gear to 120 t. But I'm not qualified to judge.

Even though I agree to your 1,5 aisle concept, 50 cm wider is overdoing it. I believe OEW should be around 70 t. Can it compete with 51 t OEW A321? Maybe yes, but probably not with a wide margin. May not be worth the action of a clean sheet.
Transpacific may need more fuselage diameter for the wingbox and longer wing. 80t OEW may be right for it.
And I assume economy passengers will appreciate more armrest for more than 10 hour flights, which your fuselage enables.

Conclusion:
For limited range A321XLR is good enough. If a new wing / more MTOW/ stretch is possible, so much the better.
A clean sheet with your proposed fuselage for transpacific traffic sounds about right to me.
I also believe that widebodies are good for transatlantic because of cargo. I believe your plane is something for beyond 10 hours flights.

Why would Boeing or Airbus design such a plane?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:57 pm

Any concept with an aisle wider than is standard/required that does not allow additional seating is DOA. If you have 6-abreast cabin the A320-series has a perfect width for all applications. Wider than that and you are lifting more plane and more drag than is needed and an easy target for Boeing to go for a kill. The same thing that will bury the ridiculous NMA two-aisle idea would apply here.
 
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:33 pm

Sokes wrote:
length/ range Wikipedia:
A300-600: 54,1 m, 4050 nm
A330-200: 58,8 m, 7250 nm
A330-300: 63,7 m, 6,350 nm
B767-300ER: 55,0 m, 5,980nm


And here we can see exactly why the A300 did not work while the B767-ER did. There are almost 2000nm in the difference.

Now what is possible now with new technology that was not possible 35 years ago.

A modern size aircraft with the dimensions of the A300 cabin has a considerable advantage over the 767. It can seat more people due to 8 abreast and has a better dimension for a modern 3 class layout. While you can have 1-2-1 in the front with a lot of space for a good business class product, Premium economy can seat 2-3-2 and Economy can seat 2-4-2. It also offers the ULCC the option for 3-3-3. A really flexible cabin for every carrier.

The same goes for the A330neo but what is the problem? It is too heavy, to capable and too large, shooting way over the MOM.

If we only add a new engine and nothing else to the A300 we probably gain 20-30% range just because the engines are so much more efficient. A new wing and full electronic contorls would allow for weight savings (which the new engines of course negate) but also for more savings as a new wing would reduce drag. Even with the same span range could be increased again by 5-10% with a modern style wing. Changes in the fuel tanks and a good center fuel tank layout would bring another 10-15% range increase.

At the end of the day I think an A300 with new avionics, a new wing with similar dimensions and new engines could push the range up to 6000-6500nm, with an optimal cabin size. OEW would be around 80-90t, MTOW 150-160t.
 
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:00 pm

When A330neo replacement arrived. They wouldn't replaced it with long narrowbody. Unlike Boeing, Airbus product lineup jumps from the 200-seats A321XLR with 4,700nmi range to 300-seats A350-900 with over 8,000nmi range.

Airbus have all the reason to created widebody that could capture the 230-270 seats market with 6,000nmi range.
Airbus new small widebody wouldn't cannibalize A321XLR or A350-900 because the gap is too big.

Boeing can't do this because they have B787-8 and MAX10. The Gap are way too small for another widebody aircraft without cannibalizing B787-8/-9.
 
Sokes
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:21 pm

@ Keesje:
Late thought. What if one increases width and height by 50 cm as compared to A321, but keeps cabin height the same? It contradicts your idea and wastes space next to the window, but it gives plenty of space under the wing for engines, including future diameter increases. For transpacific range I doubt the A321 wing box is high enough. Moreover the wings have to hold the fuel. Some height is required.
It enables much bigger bins in case a little cargo capacity is desired.
I think in language. I struggle in visual thinking. If you have time I would appreciate a drawing of a double bubble with better estimates than my guess. But don't feel obliged if you disagree with that idea.
I know your proposal was for high capacity and medium range and not for transpacific.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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keesje
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:36 pm

Sokes wrote:
@ Keesje:
Late thought. What if one increases width and height by 50 cm as compared to A321, but keeps cabin height the same? It contradicts your idea and wastes space next to the window, but it gives plenty of space under the wing for engines, including future diameter increases. For transpacific range I doubt the A321 wing box is high enough. Moreover the wings have to hold the fuel. Some height is required.
It enables much bigger bins in case a little cargo capacity is desired.
I think in language. I struggle in visual thinking. If you have time I would appreciate a drawing of a double bubble with better estimates than my guess. But don't feel obliged if you disagree with that idea.
I know your proposal was for high capacity and medium range and not for transpacific.


Hi Sokes, I think the required strenght of the Wingbox can be realized with this height. The maindeck position is set by the LD3-45 container capability, so 45+ inch high. Which is more than the 123t 757-300 MTOW. Getting space for large BPR engines close enough to the cog is a challenge. For the A380 and larger Embraer E2's a seagull wingconfiguration was choosen, that could a viable option.

Image https://www.flickr.com/photos/ramonkok/39773083854
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Sokes
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:58 am

@ Keesje:
Strong point about the B757 wing box.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:46 am

Boeing is on the ropes at the moment, Airbus has their plate full too. Now does not seem to be the time to drop 10-15B on a new clean sheet airplane. I would love to see one, otherwise it will get quite boring, but the chance of it happening see quite slim to non-existent. Probably a good 3 to 4 years for both A and B to improve their balance sheet to something better than dismal.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:11 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
Boeing is on the ropes at the moment, Airbus has their plate full too. Now does not seem to be the time to drop 10-15B on a new clean sheet airplane. I would love to see one, otherwise it will get quite boring, but the chance of it happening see quite slim to non-existent. Probably a good 3 to 4 years for both A and B to improve their balance sheet to something better than dismal.


Airbus at least has the benefit of being 25% state owned, so if D, F and ES think it is better to invest than get a lot of return they would approve a new design, especially when they can get a new plant or two for their people.
 
Sokes
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:26 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
Boeing is on the ropes at the moment, Airbus has their plate full too. Now does not seem to be the time to drop 10-15B on a new clean sheet airplane. I would love to see one, otherwise it will get quite boring, but the chance of it happening see quite slim to non-existent. Probably a good 3 to 4 years for both A and B to improve their balance sheet to something better than dismal.


What are the engineers supposed to do in these 3 to 4 years?
What are the engineers with the suppliers, e.g. landing gear makers, supposed to do?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:26 pm

Sokes wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
Boeing is on the ropes at the moment, Airbus has their plate full too. Now does not seem to be the time to drop 10-15B on a new clean sheet airplane. I would love to see one, otherwise it will get quite boring, but the chance of it happening see quite slim to non-existent. Probably a good 3 to 4 years for both A and B to improve their balance sheet to something better than dismal.


What are the engineers supposed to do in these 3 to 4 years?
What are the engineers with the suppliers, e.g. landing gear makers, supposed to do?


There are a number of airlines teetering on the edge, last year Jet for example - a whole slew of pilots, crew, maintenance, and support staff out of work.

At least 2 of the engine makers are cutting to half their production, although not said the OEM's also probably heading to those same levels. At those levels there is no money to fund development outside of the most vital. Engineers, suppliers, factory workers - many will be looking for work. What is bad is the same thing is happening around autos and probably residential construction.

Left Detroit in 1981 as the oil industry plunged off the cliff for a number of years. Our company did crane & conveyor system installations - 3 of the 5 toughest competitors of that company closed. Very ugly.

Left Denver in 1984 for Seattle - Oil Boom in 1981, 3 years later a total bust. One partnership firm went from filling two 17 story buildings to less than a floor rented in one that was handling the ashes.
 
ewt340
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Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Any leaks, ideas, or otherwise: What is Airbus' next clean-sheet aircraft?

Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:45 pm

Sokes wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
Boeing is on the ropes at the moment, Airbus has their plate full too. Now does not seem to be the time to drop 10-15B on a new clean sheet airplane. I would love to see one, otherwise it will get quite boring, but the chance of it happening see quite slim to non-existent. Probably a good 3 to 4 years for both A and B to improve their balance sheet to something better than dismal.


What are the engineers supposed to do in these 3 to 4 years?
What are the engineers with the suppliers, e.g. landing gear makers, supposed to do?


Go with improvements rather than a new development for new generation engines. That's probably what gonna happen this decade.
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